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Buzz9075
02-21-2007, 08:43 AM
I have been watching a lot of people build out Joe's machine over the last few months and I have decided to upgraded from my Solsyvia machine to Joe's machine.

As I already have a machine I am going to cut the parts my self. At present I am starting to break down all the drawings and determine what is what. I believe I have figured out all the plastic parts required.

Attached is a drawing of the plastic parts I believe I need (I will be modifing the router attachment to accomondate the dust collector). The T's mean the hole is to be threaded (normally with 1/4 threads).

Anyone see any issues or mistakes?

ccsparky
02-21-2007, 09:00 AM
Looks good Buzz, welcome to the club! :)

One thing and it may just be my viewing of your drawing but your router pieces look pretty close together as compared to the spacing with the other parts. Also the motor mounts are taped for 10-24 threads at the motor end.

What's the overall dimensions of the material you'll be cutting from?

Look forward to seeing your progress! Post often, everyone likes pictures! :D

joecnc2006
02-21-2007, 09:03 AM
the file looks correct, except for the portion i maked in yellow, if you tap these 4 holes this will allow the tool holder to go all the way through the Router rear plate and bolt into the Z-Axis bearing block adding an additional 4 places for bolting it together in additon to the 4 outer bolts.

Looking forward to seeing it cut out and built :)

Joe

Buzz9075
02-21-2007, 09:15 AM
Thanks guys for the quick responses.

ccsparky, the router mounts and 1/2 pieces have not been aligned for cutting out for two reasons 1/2 pieces will be moved to a different drawing layout, and the router head need to be redone to accomondate the tool changer stuff and 4.5 Dust collector hose. If anyone has the plans for the z axis head with the 4.5 Dust collector hose and preparing for the Tool Changer (I allready have the attachment for the router).

The maximum size I can machine is 21.5 * 32.25 the machine area is smaller than this, still working the layout of all the parts to fit nicely in this area.

Joe

Thanks for the advice on tapping, I will implement this change.

Machining will probably not begin for a while as I figure everything out in my head first. For sure I will be posting pictures... as I did for the last machine.

www.cncmachine.phillipsfamily.ca

joecnc2006
02-21-2007, 09:31 AM
The router mounts are usually 0.75" to help prevent flexing of the router when plunging.

Buzz9075
02-21-2007, 09:36 AM
Thanks Joe. That was my understanding on the router plate thinknesses. I just checked the router mount side to make sure of the grove sized and they are at .79". Is the additional width of the slot for the router plates of.04" there for a reason, I would figure you want a very tight fit.

joecnc2006
02-21-2007, 09:44 AM
Thanks Joe. That was my understanding on the router plate thinknesses. I just checked the router mount side to make sure of the grove sized and they are at .79". Is the additional width of the slot for the router plates of.04" there for a reason, I would figure you want a very tight fit.

If you have purchased material from different sourses, in HDPE and as well as MDF you will find out that not all are the same, in thichness, i learned my leson on this with the groves in the Z-Axis carriage. Even from the same place i.e. Hpme Depot they have different sizes in MDF.

Buzz9075
02-21-2007, 09:50 AM
Thanks Joe, good point. I will make sure to setup for the size of the MDF I purchase.

joecnc2006
02-21-2007, 03:24 PM
Also another note, on the Motor support walls the small 0.125 dia. circles are my nick marks i make at 0.02-3" so when i drill the holes in the ends i have a mark to line up with.

When you start cutting the parts you will see how much time it takes to make them, I do it in my spare time, but still takes a while to do them.

Joe

Buzz9075
02-21-2007, 03:40 PM
Joe, thanks. I was actually wondering what those hole were for, checked out other photos of them from packages and full builds and did not see any holes. Good idea

Buzz9075
02-22-2007, 12:47 AM
Started working at laying out the MDF parts and found a few parts are just a little :) longer than my machine can cut. Was wonder what tricks people are using to cut out the longer MDF parts, I know I can cut them in small pieces and join them together but I would prefer single pieces if possible.

Thanks in advance.

DougO
02-22-2007, 01:11 AM
Buzz, I cut my longer pieces in two on my cnc and then tacked the two pieces to a longer solid piece of mdf(or 1/4" plywood, hardwood, or whatever you have on hand). I then used this to pattern cut a master making one solid piece. After pattern cutting I made sure the length was correct and then I pattern cut the rest of the pieces from mdf by using this master. I hope this makes sense. This worked for me and I could cut the parts out faster by pattern cutting than I could with my cnc.

Doug

Buzz9075
02-22-2007, 08:15 AM
Thanks Doug0, but I am not understand this suggestion. I have never pattern cut before or even reviewed it for that matter. What tools do I use to patter cut? And how does the pattern cutting work, especially with the small slits? Is there somewhere I can read up on this method?

I have attached what I believe is the parts list required. Page one is the parts required to cut and the second one is the parts to buy. These are work in progress and comments are welcome.

joecnc2006
02-22-2007, 08:49 AM
He is talking about splicing the pieces together and join them with a skin pice glued to the pieces, then use a trim router but which had a bearing on the end usually a 1/4" bit. The bearing will follow the pattern piece and cut the new material to match.

I would do it with the patern on top and the stock material on bottom and use a router table so the bearing is ontop and you will always have a vertical cut.

Buzz9075
02-22-2007, 09:00 AM
Now I understand. Thanks. Looks all to easy.

joecnc2006
02-22-2007, 09:08 AM
Now I understand. Thanks. Looks all to easy.

Good, Now lets see some chips flying... LOL

seriously, hope it does work good for you. I really would like to know the difference in between my machine and the one you have build already.

Joe

Weldtutor
02-22-2007, 10:59 AM
Hi Buzz,
The plans for machine #2 seem to be well under way.

Your web site posted earlier (message #4) is an excellent record of the building of the first machine. Thanks for sharing.

Shipping & border brokerage for the Lovejoy couplings was certainly expensive!

Princess Auto (in your hometown I see) has a "flex coupling" that I have successfuly used to join servos to speed reducers. They might be worth checking, to save the extra costs.
See Page 93 of their catalogue (http://dev2.safaritech.com/pdfs/03_DriveComponents.pdf).

Buzz9075
02-22-2007, 11:05 AM
Princess Auto is one of my Favorite stores... behind Home Depot and Busy Bee. I will drop by this week and see what they got. I was not looking forward to paying the duty to get more of them across the boarder... all the other companies are fine with shipping USPS. But having $20US turn into about $70CDN is not nice. By chance do you have a part number I can reference.

Weldtutor
02-22-2007, 11:09 AM
By chance do you have a part number I can reference.
Click the catalaoge link added in post #17 above.
They have several sizes & part numbers.

Buzz9075
02-22-2007, 11:20 AM
Dooohhhh ... Sorry I did not see the last line. Wow that is great they got exactly what I want.

Buzz9075
02-22-2007, 01:57 PM
I ran out at lunch today and scored big. I hit the plastic store first:
1 - 2'*4'*3/4" HDPE
1 - 2"*6"*12" UHMW to try and make some dampeners out of

Then to pricess auto (made me late for work... but it was worth it).
Man right there on the shelf hundreds of the little puppies. $3CND each for each side and $2 for the middle. That make $25 for all 3 sets very similiar to the love joys I already have for 1/4 stuff.
As well I finally found my nice big red panic button they had tons of them. Will be replacing the light switch I have soon with the BRB.

I was really hoping they had the cable management system like David has on his machine but my luck ran out there.

As well I was hoping they had the 1/2" bearings but they only had 12mm bearings. I bought 1 just in case, but think it will be a little small for the 1/2 rod (will check tonight at Home Depot).

Weldtutor
02-22-2007, 02:41 PM
I ran out at lunch today and scored big.
Then to pricess auto (made me late for work... but it was worth it).
Man right there on the shelf hundreds of the little puppies. $3CND each for each side and $2 for the middle.

I was really hoping they had the cable management system
You sound rather excited Buzz. :)

Machine #2 should be done rather soon. I'm hoping you'll post pictures for this one also.

I found those flex couplers at Princess Auto last year after Mc Ma**** C**r quit selling to the little guys in Canada & the price is hard to beat.

If you find a good source nearby for the cable management system give me a shout, or put a post in my Weldtutor Plasma (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16634)table build log.

Buzz9075
02-22-2007, 02:54 PM
I was most exicted to find the BRB as I have been looking for one for ever.... and the only ones I have found would have cost me $50 to get it here.... got it today for about $8 with taxes.

Machine #2 I am expecting to be done end of March... Still have a lot of work to get it straight in my head what all the parts are and how everything is put together before I start machining. I want to ensure I have as many adjustments required implemented, for example ready for tool changer, Dust collector connection (or ready for it).

Buzz9075
02-23-2007, 08:21 AM
Pipes, just checked the drawings for the pipe support locations for the X and Y axis. They are two different pipes. I was under the impression from previous readings that the pipes where gas lines which are standard and they don't fluctuate this much(i understand the tolerance but the set back are completely different sizes). Can someone advise what pipes I am suppose to be using.

Thanks

ccsparky
02-23-2007, 08:26 AM
Pipes, just checked the drawings for the pipe support locations for the X and Y axis. They are two different pipes. I was under the impression from previous readings that the pipes where gas lines which are standard and they don't fluctuate this much(i understand the tolerance but the set back are completely different sizes). Can someone advise what pipes I am suppose to be using.

Thanks

Buzz,

The Y-Axis uses 3/4" gas pipe and the X-Axis uses 1" gas pipe and that is what I used on my machine.

ccsparky
02-23-2007, 08:30 AM
Buzz,

You will be using 36" and 60" pipes with the threads on both ends, the openings in the third and forth pictures have a bit smaller diameter to accept the threaded ends and they will be a snug fit

joecnc2006
02-23-2007, 08:42 AM
Pipes, just checked the drawings for the pipe support locations for the X and Y axis. They are two different pipes. I was under the impression from previous readings that the pipes where gas lines which are standard and they don't fluctuate this much(i understand the tolerance but the set back are completely different sizes). Can someone advise what pipes I am suppose to be using.

Thanks

The X-Axis is 1" Gas pipes and the Y-Axis is 3/4" Gas pipes.
60" and 36" respectively. Don't forget to check length not to exceed the distances, sometimes gas pipes are a little long and need to be trimmed.

Joe

Buzz9075
02-23-2007, 08:45 AM
Excellent thanks. To confirm when I get the pipes I want, I then what to put the normal NPT on the ends of the bars? Home Depot has done this for me in the past when I have asked.

Weldtutor
02-23-2007, 08:46 AM
The Y-Axis uses 3/4" gas pipe and the X-Axis uses 1" gas pipe
The above quoted answer is correct.

Pipe size specifications can be very confusing & the term "gas pipe" is jargon.

They are stated as "nominal" (approx.) inside diameter.

You are concerned with the outside diameter which is always constant even though the wall thickness or "schedule" can vary.

3/4" pipe has an O.D. of 1.05"

1" pipe is 1.32" O.D.

ccsparky
02-23-2007, 08:54 AM
I got my pipes from Home Depot and both of the HD near me carry pre cut and threaded 36" and 60" pipes. I used black pipe because they are normally smoother than galvanized as suggested to me by Joe. It was nice having a selection because I was able to pick through them and find some pretty good pipes. Several had teeth marks from the pipe machine so be careful when selecting or having them cut and threaded by them for you. :)

joecnc2006
02-23-2007, 09:01 AM
Don't forget to sand them down it does make a difference in the running and cuts of the machine.

Buzz9075
02-23-2007, 09:12 AM
Thanks for all the information and advice. I am really hoping I can get a home depot shopping spree in this weekend.

Buzz9075
02-24-2007, 11:31 PM
Got some work done, updates at www.cncmachine.phillipsfamily.ca
Enjoy

Buzz9075
02-25-2007, 11:02 PM
More updates were just posted on the web page.

Got one problem I just can't seem to figure out, maybe someone can help me. The cutting of shapes are of by 0.005 to 0.025" (ALLWAYS under sized). The difference varies but is not based on position on the table, I have reduced the speed of the final cut to 5ipm. Checked my backlash and it appears to be about .002. I machine an inside square 1" and pocket of 1" and I get squares of .94 to 1.03 (Seldom being over). The faster I cut the final cut the sloppier the finish.

Some easy examples are drill holes. I get .197 for a .201 hole. Rarely will it be the size required. Using a ruler the overall finished part is the right size (can't measure the bigger parts with a vernier). At this point I just fix the holes by redrilling them and allowing the wood to recenter.

What ever it is does not grow as the rotor moves down the axis.

Checked the back lash by doing the following:
Move the axis in one direction for about 1". Put the dial indicator up against it and move the other way in .001 increments. Watch for the dial to start to move.

One thing I did notice, is sometimes I put the jog at .1 movements and when I jog it moves .08, .12, .1, .1,.1, .09, .08... but the total movement overal for alot of movement is acrurate.

I believe I have everything tightened up nicely... but I could have missed something.

I am for sure the motors are not skipping steps.

My walls are nice and straight on the edges of the part (which do not have finish passes... the circles do they have .02 finishing passes.). No stair casing on the side in MDF but a little in plastic.

While it is not a huge concern I really like my machines as tight as I can get them.

Not sure what else to look at does any one got any ideas?

At a point where I am thinking the really accurate stuff I might just add .05 to the size :)

ger21
02-25-2007, 11:09 PM
Cut two identical squares in the same place on the machinie, one climb cutting and one conventional. How much different are they?

You may be seeing bit deflection, since it increases with speed. Try a larger diameter tool and see if you get better results.

Buzz9075
02-25-2007, 11:15 PM
I will give the climb/conventional test a go tomorrow. Now that you say it the numbers I believe are different based on cutter size. I am using a 3/16 as I need it to cut all the holes that are called for and the holes are what are causing me the biggest grief.

I know I get some deflect as this machine is not well designed to hold a large tool head on (which I have in place to get the maximum amount of vacuum).

DayneInfo
02-25-2007, 11:18 PM
Buzz - I have a Sosylva also and found I had the same problems with mine. Machine is great for cutting signs and such but not accurate enough for what I ultimately want to do. I think part of the problem is in the all-thred lead screws. I am assuming that the pitch varies slightly through out the length of rod. I also noticed differences when making conventional vs climb cuts. What I did was cut test parts and decided what would work best. I modified drawings, speeds cut direction etc...until I had something I liked. I then cut all my parts at those settings. For example I know that some of my Joe's machine parts are not exactly sized correct, but all of the parts are off the same amount. So it all fits fine. I have not finished my Joe's yet and will not for a while, but I did buy precission leadscrews for this reason.

Dwayne

Jason Marsha
02-26-2007, 12:27 AM
I have a sneaky feeling that you will get the same results with the precision leadscrew, as the size differences may have to do with Z axis deflection . However it will all be put to rest when you install your new leadscrews.

Jason

Buzz9075
02-26-2007, 08:03 AM
Did some tests this morning, basically showed that conventional milling is worse than climb milling. Got a felling for those holes that I really care about the size I am going to increase the drawing size to accomondate the result.

I know some of this is due to deflection on the Z axis head but I figured by slowing the feed rate down to 5 this would have removed this and allowed the cutter to say up to the speed of the cutting and remove all the material. Going to do another test tonight and cut the finishing pass at 1IPM hopefully this helps a little.

I really hope that Joe's design remove this type of stuff.

Any more ideas I am all ears.

ccsparky
02-26-2007, 08:06 AM
Hello Buzz,

Checked out your site, parts look good!

Are you using Mach3? I am having problems figuring out how to leave tabs on the parts so they don't move around on the final pass, just like the sheet of motor mounts on your site. Was each part done with a continuous cut or did each section in between the tabs have to be cut separately and then move to the next?

Thanks!

Buzz9075
02-26-2007, 08:11 AM
I welcome others to jump in and tell me how they do it. I just figured this out this weekend and did it based on trial and error (fun learning new stuff).

Method creating a tab.
Create part with outside edge of part at z.1. All internal stuff is at z.0
copy the outside edge to z0
But breaks in the lines at z0 where I want the tabs left
Machine at z.1
Machiene the lines at z0

This left my tabs behind. Cleaned up easily with a file.

joecnc2006
02-26-2007, 08:17 AM
Hello Buzz,

Checked out your site, parts look good!

Are you using Mach3? I am having problems figuring out how to leave tabs on the parts so they don't move around on the final pass, just like the sheet of motor mounts on your site. Was each part done with a continuous cut or did each section in between the tabs have to be cut separately and then move to the next?

Thanks!

you will need to draw in tabs and do a final g-code cut utilizing them, if you do not have software that has a feature to add tabs into the tool paths. Lazycam does not have this feature as far as i know.

Also BUZZ, you will also notice if you mic. the tools you will find slightly differences in the actual tools, i.e. CDT bit i mic'd 0.2575" and Whiteside was 0.2535" (using dial a calaper). I was surprised to see a difference at the actial flutes of this amount, Also I would use a 6" or 12" trial piece measure it then use that scale factor to adjust the numbers in Mach3 under motor tunning.

Joe

Buzz9075
02-26-2007, 08:23 AM
I will check the cutter for actual diameter... Man that would be a piss off :) I just figured that a BRAND new cutter was 3/16 as sold :).

I did the calibrate of the axis by taping a ruler to the machine mounting a lazer and moving the axis by 1" at a time and adjusting the motor tuning as required to get the values required. Is this what you mean by the 6" to 12" trial piece.

ccsparky
02-26-2007, 08:33 AM
Thanks Buzz and Joe!

I'll look into this more and take it over to my log.

That's good info on the bits!

joecnc2006
02-26-2007, 08:58 AM
I will check the cutter for actual diameter... Man that would be a piss off :) I just figured that a BRAND new cutter was 3/16 as sold :).

I did the calibrate of the axis by taping a ruler to the machine mounting a lazer and moving the axis by 1" at a time and adjusting the motor tuning as required to get the values required. Is this what you mean by the 6" to 12" trial piece.

Yes,

ger21
02-26-2007, 09:03 AM
When we set up tools on our CNC, we cut a slot and measure the slot width with a caliper.

Buzz9075
02-26-2007, 09:24 AM
I checked the cutter is is measureing .184 when it should read .1875. I like Gerry's idea. I will cut a strip tonight and measure it. I will also adjust my holes by just telling the machine the cutting is .1775, this should give me back my .02 of inaccuracy.... hey if can't beat them join them.

joecnc2006
02-26-2007, 12:44 PM
Noticed you have a z-axis plate for auto tool height. can you tell everyone how you hooked it up and also settings in mach3.

Edit: oops just saw you do not have it in mach3 yet, you use a senser to yell at you... lol

Joe

Buzz9075
02-26-2007, 01:04 PM
The Z axis tool plate is not presently hocked into mach3... another task I will take on once I get the new machines built. What I do for now.

Due to my router attachment set up I cannot get to my router body so a few additional steps here.

The router body to the cutter will conduct electricty.
The Ground wire that runs from my router to the dust collector now has a circuit to the cutter. So for all intensive purpose, any gound in my house is connected to the cutter (more on this in a moment).
I use an Ohms meter, connect one lead to the ground wire, the other lead to a piece of steel.
Set the Ohms meter to scream when it has a closed circuit.
Lower the router tip (SLOWLY) till it touches the plate (using .001 increments).
When the router screems I am touching the surface of the metal...
Do some math and you know where your router bit is at.


Not being an electronics guy this one is a little bit of a puzzle to me.
Here is what I want to do.
Hock the screeming part to a limit switch on one of my CandCNC board and have mach3 pick up this signal so it knows where the router tip is at.
Only problem is if I take the board and directly connect it to the router, the gound cable or any part of the router I am effectively gounding the switch. I have no clue what this means to me but from my level of knowledge (ignorance with electronics) grounding a circuit is not always desired.... anyways a piece of the puzzle to solve in April when I have the new machine up and running.

To top it all of to ensure I don't get a run away cutter in the future I would also like to put a thin piece of metal under the bed layer and hock it up to a limit switch. This way when the cutter goes through the bed it will cause a limit switch to get hit and not go about cutting up the machine.

Man there is so much to figure out.

Buzz9075
02-26-2007, 06:29 PM
ccsparky.

This is an example of how I did it (not sure this is the best way). I cut to the white line, then I cut to the red lines leaving spaces between them will cause the tabs to be created. Different size spaces for different size tabs.

Buzz9075
02-27-2007, 09:10 AM
I knew I would find a use for my Wireless Linksys Video Camera (other than for security purposes). Check this out, I have a very long program running (which I tested last night). From my machine upstairs I able to monitor and listen to the machine and control the computer which controlls the CNC router.

Left picture is a web page to the camera and the right pain is a VNC session to the computer that is running the machine.

I have the speed slowed significantly down so that I have a chance to respond while working on other stuff (in case something goes wrong :) )

Got lots more parts done but to busy to post right now will later tonight. Should be done all the 3/4 plastic parts for both machines today maybe tomorrow at the latest.

Edit... opps the picture did not upload the first time.

Buzz9075
02-27-2007, 09:14 AM
Did some tests last night. Cutting the path did a great job at setting the cutter at .18 rather than .1875. Fixed all pockets that where not just a hole (like the .201 and .25 holes). I am happy with that I can redrill the holes. Pockets and paths are now all near perfect (or as perfect as I can expect from this machine). Most cuts are now withing .005. LESSON LEARNED... cut a path and measure the cut size.

Buzz9075
02-27-2007, 09:48 AM
I have a small problem when I cut plastic. The plastic come of in strips and winds itself around the cutter. When there is a enough of it and the cutter goes in deep enought to cause all the plastic to bunch up it becomes knotted adn then melts as it rubs against the machining surface which then causes problems with the finish. For now I got a good idea when it is going to happen and I used compressed air to blow the plastic off.

Anyone got a better idea on how to keep the plastic of the cutter.

Weldtutor
02-27-2007, 09:56 AM
Check this out, I have a very long program running. From my machine upstairs I able to monitor and listen to the machine and control the computer which controlls the CNC router.


Very clever Buzz!:banana:

Is the next logical step to start things up in the morning, go to work, & come home to assemble the new machine?

Buzz9075
02-27-2007, 10:21 AM
I work from home so loading the machine is basically a break from sitting in front of my computer 7 * 24 :). Don't think I would do this on untested tool paths... this time as I have to cut everything twice, I am doing the first run with me their then the rest virtually attending :wee:

Next logical step is to put a BRB in my office.:cool:

Actually working rather nicely, has not affected my day to day activities and the mic is picking up the noises perfect so I know when the machine is streesing on a cut (about 1 second after it happens). Not to bad.... so far I have been upstairs since 7am and the machine has been running. Only had one reload to put in place so far. Another one goes in this aft.

joecnc2006
02-27-2007, 11:16 AM
I have a small problem when I cut plastic. The plastic come of in strips and winds itself around the cutter. When there is a enough of it and the cutter goes in deep enought to cause all the plastic to bunch up it becomes knotted adn then melts as it rubs against the machining surface which then causes problems with the finish. For now I got a good idea when it is going to happen and I used compressed air to blow the plastic off.

Anyone got a better idea on how to keep the plastic of the cutter.

That happens to me if i do not use peck drilling, instead of drilling all the way through the HDPE, with peck drilling it exspells the chips instead of making long winding strands of HDPE which will bunch up and melt into the top of the stock material. I have not tried adding a air hose to the tool.

Joe

joecnc2006
02-27-2007, 11:18 AM
I knew I would find a use for my Wireless Linksys Video Camera (other than for security purposes). Check this out, I have a very long program running (which I tested last night). From my machine upstairs I able to monitor and listen to the machine and control the computer which controlls the CNC router.

Left picture is a web page to the camera and the right pain is a VNC session to the computer that is running the machine.

I have the speed slowed significantly down so that I have a chance to respond while working on other stuff (in case something goes wrong :) )

Got lots more parts done but to busy to post right now will later tonight. Should be done all the 3/4 plastic parts for both machines today maybe tomorrow at the latest.

Edit... opps the picture did not upload the first time.


I use remote desktop also to keep an eye on the machine.

Buzz9075
02-27-2007, 11:26 AM
Thanks Joe, I will keep it in mind for drilling cycles. Where I find the problem is when I do pocketing then do drilling. The pocketing stuff leaves all the crap on the cutter. What I have been doing is blowing it off just before I start the drilling cycle (which really is milling small pockets).

Maybe what I need to do is lift the cutter between cutting depths of the holes as I machining then using a 3/16 cutter.

Buzz9075
02-28-2007, 11:00 AM
Things are going along well. Parts are coming of the machine faster than I can clean them up.

Question: Any one know how to tie the Xylotex controller to Mach3 such that mach3 will not try and move the machine without the Xylotex controller turned on. I have tried a few times to move the machine with Mach3 and the xylotex controller turned off.... pain to reset the machine (especially if I moved the Z axis). I do have the CandCNC breakout board with the relay break out board as well.

Thanks

joecnc2006
02-28-2007, 11:12 AM
I have not used the Xylotex board.

do we get to watch also? just make sure you have shorts on and no undies showing... lol..

ccsparky
02-28-2007, 07:39 PM
ccsparky.

This is an example of how I did it (not sure this is the best way). I cut to the white line, then I cut to the red lines leaving spaces between them will cause the tabs to be created. Different size spaces for different size tabs.

Thanks Buzz,

I picked up VCarve and it's so easy, can't wait to try it out this weekend.

Nice work on the remote monitoring! You guys are all so creative! Will it fetch you a brew or is that still in the works? ;)

Buzz9075
03-01-2007, 08:39 AM
Lots of cutting happening, man there are just a few parts. Web site has been updated with a few pictures.

joecnc2006
03-01-2007, 08:47 AM
Lots of cutting happening, man there are just a few parts. Web site has been updated with a few pictures.

you can start to see how much is involved in making the parts for the machine.

Buzz9075
03-01-2007, 08:53 AM
I knew before I got into it. If you think about it. You supply 84 parts for 700US, thats less than $10 a piece. For the first time cut you have to do the drawings, setup the tabs, determine all the layouts in the material, Then you get to cut. OK cut parts, need to be sanded, filed, plastic buffed a little to clean stuff up.

joecnc2006
03-01-2007, 09:20 AM
I knew before I got into it. If you think about it. You supply 84 parts for 700US, thats less than $10 a piece. For the first time cut you have to do the drawings, setup the tabs, determine all the layouts in the material, Then you get to cut. OK cut parts, need to be sanded, filed, plastic buffed a little to clean stuff up.

don't forget i tap alot of the HDPE parts before sending out.

Weldtutor
03-01-2007, 09:54 AM
Lots of cutting happening,

You sure are good at multi-tasking!

The record of the new build on your web site will certainly inspire & help many other folks.

I could build up those wood screws with weld metal for you, if you want to have a go at cutting new threads on them.:p
(Just trying to help.) :D Did the cutter survive?

Buzz9075
03-01-2007, 10:04 AM
The cutter did not even know it hit them. It just cut throught them like butter. I heard something was a little different.

Buzz9075
03-01-2007, 10:32 AM
When I cut the MDF with 3/16 cutter I find the crove I am cutting is filling up with the MDF powder and I am left over with hands full of the stuff after each cut. Am I doing something wrong or is this just what is going to happen when I cut MDF?

I am using the 3/16 carbide cutter listed on this page:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=42891&cat=1,46168,46171&ap=1

ger21
03-01-2007, 11:11 AM
The smaller the tool, the more likely it is that the dust packs into the cut. Keeping it clean so you don't keep re-cutting the dust will increase tool life, but it's difficult to do. At work I cut MDF at 400ipm and I still get about 1/2 dust, 1/2 very small chips. Just the nature of the material.

Buzz9075
03-01-2007, 12:22 PM
At 400IPM how fast is the cutter turning?

ger21
03-01-2007, 01:08 PM
15,000 rpm, 1/2" 3 flute spiral

Buzz9075
03-04-2007, 10:46 PM
Joe I really hope you have figured out something to do with all the plugs cut outs... man their sure is a lot of them.

While I thought this machine was going to be solid intial assembly has amazed me on how nicely it goes together and how solid it is (even with out glue or nails). What is real nice is the simplicity of the machine and the basic methods used to keep it sturdy and they appear to be functioning very nicely.

Things are moving along slowly but surely.. Had a rather busy weekend with family activities but parts are still coming out.

My web page has been update with progress.

Couple of questions:
Painting of Z axis. I am about to assemble the Z axis with glue this week and wondering if the inside should be painted first or after it assembled.
Paint Ribs. Do I need to shelac the MDF ribs for the Y axis or just what is exposed?

joecnc2006
03-04-2007, 11:11 PM
yes i would paint the inside after assemble it not hard to shoot some paint inside it. And i would definately seal up the ribs, I just pained mine.

I wanted to make a machine which was easy to put together with out much direction or difficulty, and strong to boot.

Hope you like it :)

Joe

joecnc2006
03-04-2007, 11:19 PM
I just noticed the Y Axis horz. ribs are cut all the way through, i do a .25" pocket on mine to make a solid top and bottom piece, what you have should work though.

Buzz9075
03-04-2007, 11:22 PM
Uh ooh... I will redo and fix... Thanks for picking up on that. What is the purpose of just pocketing out halfway?

joecnc2006
03-04-2007, 11:38 PM
Uh ooh... I will redo and fix... Thanks for picking up on that. What is the purpose of just pocketing out halfway?

only for weight, remember I am still using the HobbyCNC 200ozin kit and it still works good. so if you have larger motors, you do not need to pocket them.

Joe

joecnc2006
03-04-2007, 11:43 PM
you have not glued the Z Axis carriage yet have you? this peace is reversed.

Buzz9075
03-04-2007, 11:44 PM
Thanks... I suspect I am going to be changing from the Xylotex to the CNCHobbey setup, pocketing will be done.

Buzz9075
03-05-2007, 12:00 AM
GOOD EYES. Nope no glue yet. Nothing will glue till I know everything fits and working correctly (will be while yet before I start glueing).

John

just_lkn
03-05-2007, 07:14 PM
Nice Work.. Am I seeing things or are you building two units

joecnc2006
03-05-2007, 07:53 PM
Nice Work.. Am I seeing things or are you building two units


Yes he mentioned earlier that he was building one for himself and a friend of his.

Joe

Buzz9075
03-05-2007, 08:33 PM
Are you sure you did not have to much to drink :) Just kidding ya.... we are building two at the same time. Hopefully I get it right or we are in double trouble... mistakes are twice as costly (as I learned last night).

Buzz9075
03-05-2007, 11:40 PM
Are the gantry sides glued together? These parts that go bottom gantry to the top gantry (2 pieces on either side).

joecnc2006
03-05-2007, 11:45 PM
Yes the inside and outside of the gantry sides are glued together, use 4 to 5 1/4" bolts in holes to line up then use clamps to apply presure.

Joe

joecnc2006
03-05-2007, 11:46 PM
Don't glue them to the torsion boxes use the threaded rods, this will allow for maint. later on.

Buzz9075
03-05-2007, 11:49 PM
Perfect, thanks... next set of parts are these... hopefully I will get started on them tomorrow (just reviewing the drawings now)

Buzz9075
03-05-2007, 11:54 PM
Someone also indicate at one point that there are an addition 2 - 1/4 rods between the gantry sides to stop them from bowing. Is this correct? If so is there a prefered place to put the holes in the gantry side?

joecnc2006
03-05-2007, 11:55 PM
Perfect, thanks... next set of parts are these... hopefully I will get started on them tomorrow (just reviewing the drawings now)


A Lot of parts huh??? lol

Buzz9075
03-05-2007, 11:59 PM
Especially when you cutting two of everything :). I am having a ball doing it, can't wait till everything is cut out so I can start to assemble.

joecnc2006
03-06-2007, 12:00 AM
Someone also indicate at one point that there are an addition 2 - 1/4 rods between the gantry sides to stop them from bowing. Is this correct? If so is there a prefered place to put the holes in the gantry side?

mine are 14.5 inches from the bottom 14.5 to 15" will work i think, you can add these when the machine is complete and drill with a bit. this allows 4.5" from bed to rods and enough room for the tool changer that JLT made on his. I also added threaded rods just above the bottom torsion box which i drilled through the sides and the X-Axis bearing block housing.

joecnc2006
03-06-2007, 12:01 AM
Especially when you cutting two of everything :). I am having a ball doing it, can't wait till everything is cut out so I can start to assemble.

Only TWO ?? think how many i cut... LOL

Buzz9075
03-06-2007, 12:04 AM
Thanks... I will implement the 4 extra rods after assembly.

I think about all the parts you are cutting every time I take a set of parts of the machine.

Buzz9075
03-06-2007, 08:30 AM
Pictures have been updated.

Buzz9075
03-07-2007, 10:00 AM
Starting to feel like I am getting somewhere. Pieces are coming together and fitting well.

Pictures were updated this morning...

joecnc2006
03-07-2007, 10:22 AM
looks good.

oh yea, www.fab@home.org is the fabrication, but they do not offer plans now it is a kit sell.

just_lkn
03-07-2007, 05:46 PM
looks good.

oh yea, www.fab@home.org is the fabrication, but they do not offer plans now it is a kit sell.

Plans/drawings appear to be there under bill of materials... If you are having trouble with the link replace the @ with at

Buzz9075
03-07-2007, 06:01 PM
Excellent thanks guys. My web page is updated for the captions to be updated on the next upload to reflect the link.

joecnc2006
03-07-2007, 06:10 PM
that would be cool to cut on the CNC Machine, they estimate 2,300 for the build tho?

Buzz9075
03-07-2007, 09:53 PM
Bit more money than I have right now. Quick look at the drawing looks realively easy. While interested in the manufacturing method I am to busy right now.

ccsparky
03-07-2007, 10:20 PM
John,

Looking good, you've got a lot done and the pile of left over MDF is hugh! :)

Buzz9075
03-07-2007, 11:19 PM
Lot of the pile is learning and making mistakes :)

Buzz9075
03-08-2007, 09:02 AM
More pictures uploaded this morning. I only have one more night of work before I shut down to get ready for a ski trip to CO (9 days of boarding)... pray for powder for me :)

Buzz9075
03-09-2007, 01:25 PM
My U clamps just got in, something is not right. The U shape appears to wide, as well the 4.5" seems way to long (the straight sections are 4" long)Attached are some pictures.

Do I have the right or wrong part?

Is the 4.5" (final of 4.25") the entire length of the U clamp or just the straight portion as I have?

I tried putting the UBolt in a little way with a little bit of force and it got real tight real quick.

As well the bearing sits on the u clamp a little sloppy is this OK?

joecnc2006
03-09-2007, 05:08 PM
My U clamps just got in, something is not right. The U shape appears to wide, as well the 4.5" seems way to long (the straight sections are 4" long)Attached are some pictures.

Do I have the right or wrong part?

Is the 4.5" (final of 4.25") the entire length of the U clamp or just the straight portion as I have?

I tried putting the UBolt in a little way with a little bit of force and it got real tight real quick.

As well the bearing sits on the u clamp a little sloppy is this OK?the u bolt i got, which was just the standard Ubolt size is .25 to wide if i remember, what i did was place the ubolt on the concrete floor hit it with a hammer (at area in yellow in attached picture) then when i felt it was narrow enought i just bent the ends back out to the apropriate spacing. the bolts will be long and I used a dremel tool to cut off extra length after installed onto drill rods using lock nuts.

If you remember or read that is when i got metal shavings in my eye and went to medical clinic so they could scrap them out.

the bearing should be a little tighter than that, but you will prob be ok, it is only for tension, the bearing slide is what gives it the straightness. make sure to add the clear tubbing to hold bearing in place.

Joe

Buzz9075
03-09-2007, 07:18 PM
I remember the story about you having to go in cause you got something in your eye.

While you did not attache the picture I get the idea, bend the u a little to reduce the width of the arc to match the distance between the holes. In other words make it fit.

Went out tonight looking for a different model of 2"* 4".

One of these will have to work.

Yup I already got the plastic tubing ready to go.

Buzz9075
03-10-2007, 10:11 PM
Pictures have been updated.

Joe: I am really impressed by how solid parts are coming together.

joecnc2006
03-10-2007, 10:16 PM
Pictures have been updated.

Joe: I am really impressed by how solid parts are coming together.

I'm glad its working out for you so far, Yea it is a pretty solid machine, being its made out of MDF... :)

joecnc2006
03-10-2007, 10:20 PM
one note: I used a templete and mark the center of the holes for the alumn. bearing slides, then center punch them, makes the bit stay in place, just print the bearing PDF's they should be to scale.

Joe

Buzz9075
03-10-2007, 10:36 PM
Thanks for the info, that is what I did last time on the syslovia machine. What I did was line the vice and drill up to ensure a repeatable location then center drilled them, then drilled them with a 1/8 drill then the 5/16 or 1/4". You ned to make sure the pilot hole is big enought to accept the flat spot between the two flutes of the drill or I find it still may wonder a little.

At present all slides are center drilled to ensure they all had the same distance from the angle.

Buzz9075
03-21-2007, 07:28 PM
Had an awesome snowboarding trip... I am back and working at cutting more parts and making sure all the ZAxis unit fits properly. One thing I have come across that does not appear right. Both the top and bottom plates for the zaxis call for .2 holes yet a 1/4 bolt goes through these. Should the size of the hole snot be 1/4 or 5/16 (if you want to make some room for adjustments). See the picture below of the top plates.

joecnc2006
03-21-2007, 08:32 PM
just drill those 0.25"

Joe

Buzz9075
03-21-2007, 10:30 PM
Thanks Joe

Buzz9075
03-22-2007, 08:57 AM
Another question. I am reviewing the long X axis pieces again. While I still have the option of template cutting them I still looking at cutting them on the CNC machine (less work for me). You presently cut them at the red line in the diagram. Do you see any problems cutting them at the blue line in the attached diagram and adding a block to clamp them together again? The block would be as something like outlined in yellow, I might even remove the cuttout to make it stronger and easier to put back to gether.

My machine is not big enough to cut to the red line so I am looking for alternative ideas.

joecnc2006
03-22-2007, 09:13 AM
As long as you place the joining plate (in yellow) you should be fine.

Buzz9075
03-22-2007, 09:32 AM
Thanks again

Buzz9075
03-23-2007, 08:42 AM
Pictures have been updated

ccsparky
03-24-2007, 10:00 AM
John,

Looks like you've made a lot of progress! Great job!:)

How about just cutting it at the arrow, then you would not have to add the extra pieces.

Bob

34162

Buzz9075
03-24-2007, 10:11 AM
Thanks Bob, machine is well underway of cutting the parts for the long axis, 6 of 16 already cut... really hoping I can get all 16 cut today.

That leaves me only 8 parts to cut which I still don't know how I am going to do them as they are 1.5" to long for my machine in the present state... one option is to remove the vacuum head=devorce (to much dust).

BTW: Which way is up going to end up being the upper side of the machining table. Slots in the longs cross memebers up or down?

The more I build this machine and realize how sturdy it is compared to my existing machine I can't wait to have it complete and machining with it.

John

ccsparky
03-24-2007, 10:43 AM
Not sure it matters, like you said Joe's design is very solid! I will be in the shop doing some cutting today and will take a look at mine. I believe I have them up. Just make sure when you put it together that you have it situated the correct way. The X-Axis will have the ribs sticking out on both sides and as you can see in the picture the ribs sticking out are longer on one side.

Bob

34163

Buzz9075
03-24-2007, 10:51 AM
Thanks

joecnc2006
03-24-2007, 09:23 PM
you will want to put the splices stagared and as far away on each end as much as possible to increase the torsion box strength.

Buzz9075
03-24-2007, 09:36 PM
To late... parts are all cut in half and put back together. Center two are connected back with a patch on either side of the rib the edge ones have a patch on the inside only (so you can't see it.). From what I have seen so far it looks strong to me.

Buzz9075
03-24-2007, 10:43 PM
Pictures have been updated (still need some of the patches on the other side).

Buzz9075
04-01-2007, 10:26 AM
I must be blind but I cant find the length of the lead screws in the installation instructions. Can someone point me to the length of the lead screws.

Sorry I have not posted in a while, I have lots of pictures ready to post should be able to update the web page tonight. Time has been at a primium for me lately.

joecnc2006
04-01-2007, 12:42 PM
I must be blind but I cant find the length of the lead screws in the installation instructions. Can someone point me to the length of the lead screws.


Mine are:
Z-Axis = 18"
Y-Axis = 42"
X-Axis = you can leave the 72" and cut off when finished.

If you use a spring method to preload like some have you may want an extra inch or so on the y and x axis.

Joe

Buzz9075
04-01-2007, 02:10 PM
Thanks Joe.

Buzz9075
04-01-2007, 09:40 PM
Progress is starting to go well again. I had a serious slow down figuring out what I was going to do to cut the last 8 parts. Got that figured out then my machine went astray, something must be loose or come misaligned as it no longer cuts like it was before. Still works ok just not as accurate and not as smooth a cut. I must have done something when I changed the router attachement head. Oh well I got through it and hoping I will not need it any more....

I have updated my pictures. www.cncmachine.phillipsfamily.ca

If I don't run into any hurdles, I am hoping to have it up and running on Easter Weekend. I week later than I orginally figured.

joecnc2006
04-01-2007, 10:06 PM
it is really coming to shape, you will have it together very soon, and be able to start cutting with it. i believe you will see a world of difference between your old machine and this one.

Alot of work making all the parts huh? now you know what i go through when i make kits for people, but it if fun anyway, especially when i see them completed and running.

Joe

Buzz9075
04-02-2007, 07:34 AM
Based on what I have seen so far I have no doubt that I will see a WORLD of diffence between the 2 machines. Can't wait to give it a go.

While the machine should be ready to move this weekend I doubt I will be cutting for another week, still have lots of little things left over.
- Limit switchs (still have to review this install... have not figured out where to install them),
- dust collector still need to figure this one out. Hoping to put in the floating head but again I have not researched the plans yet (hoping to snoop around for the plans this week). I kept the walls on the router plat wider so that I could have room to attach the floating head (got that from pictures of JLT's machine).
- Callibration... if it is anything like the last machine that took me days just to run all the tests to verify that everything was alligned correctly.

Ya it was a lot of work, especially when the machine did not exactly cut what you draw.... a lot of additional work was done with doing small adjustments to everything. Think I spent more time doing this than cutting the parts. Also being the first time through I had a significant amount of human error wastage along with the machine error wastage. But the parts are cut and looking good machine should come together nicely.

My buddy and I were talking about the additional bolts on the lower part of the gantry and wounding why don't you send then through the entire lower gantry torsion box rather than just above it. From my measurements they should be able to fit through the slots in the torsion box and over and under the 1/2 lead screew with about 1/8 to spare.

joecnc2006
04-02-2007, 08:36 AM
My buddy and I were talking about the additional bolts on the lower part of the gantry and wounding why don't you send then through the entire lower gantry torsion box rather than just above it. From my measurements they should be able to fit through the slots in the torsion box and over and under the 1/2 lead screew with about 1/8 to spare.

I placed it above just for the ease of install, i did not want to fight trying to align the threaded rod all the way through to the other side and missing the hole slightly and strugle making it fit through, but i would like to see someone do that and i could add some holes in the gantry sides to allow for this and also the one above if someone needs them, but it is easy to drill the holes with a bit.

Joe

Buzz9075
04-02-2007, 08:58 AM
I will give it a go. Going to put a piece of wood on either side of the lead screew to hold the rod in place and to hopefully keep rod away from the lead screw. Should be able to get it through the existing large holes and then through the other side by aligning through the holes in the torsion box used to hold the nuts. Quick measurements indicate I would have about 1/8 between rod and lead screw... should be enough.

Will post on how it goes when I get there.

mindstorm88
04-02-2007, 09:36 AM
Hi Buzz , what type of leadscrew will you use ?? acme rod?? if yes , any good price in your area ??? i'm in MTL area , trying to find lo cost supplier for acme !!

Buzz9075
04-02-2007, 09:49 AM
Used ACME lead screws. I found them at almost every fastener store. Very readily available in almost any length. I finally bought at Fastenal 613-745-9022 (they have many outlets in Ottawa):

2 1/2"-10Acme Lead Screw - 6' Length Fastenal - $31.40
20 1/2"-10Acme Nuts Fastenal - Steve - 745-9022 - $41.28

When locating them I found prices varried significantly between stores.

Buzz9075
04-02-2007, 11:26 PM
More pictures uploaded of the X axis assembly and priming. Hummmm I see to much painting in my future :)

joecnc2006
04-03-2007, 12:18 AM
looking good so far

Buzz9075
04-04-2007, 11:59 PM
Things are still moving along well. Getting very close to starting final assembly. One more coat of paint on most parts and then redrill the holes to get the paint out of them (some I will need to twisth the bit by hand - like the y axis braces can't fit the drill in there :)) Got a feeling with all this paint I should take a full days rest to all the paint to get a good/hardening time

Pictures have been updated to reflect the last two days work.

Buzz9075
04-06-2007, 07:42 AM
Assembly of machine has begun, almost done the z axis. starting to think about where to mount the limit switches. Could others put up some pictures or tell me how they mounted their limit switches on the machine.

Thanks

joecnc2006
04-06-2007, 08:46 AM
Assembly of machine has begun, almost done the z axis. starting to think about where to mount the limit switches. Could others put up some pictures or tell me how they mounted their limit switches on the machine.

Thanks

David did a really good job on his machine (an example of fine art).

Look at post #240

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26792&page=20

Joe

Buzz9075
04-06-2007, 06:43 PM
Thanks, Joe.

Checked it out, figured out another way that I think was easier to do for the Z axis. Will definity be using his idea for the Y axis. Will post pictures later tonight.

Question: I am not using lock tite as I am using lock washers. Normally this is fine.... then I just thought this is one huge vibrator. Do we need to use lock tite as well as the lock washers?

Joe... every step I take this machine just stays solid. Still really impressed with this design. Can't wait to see what the double rail for the X axis is going to work like (Hoping to put the Y axis on the Z axis on Sunday). Based on what I have seen so far I bet I am going to be impressed.

Buzz9075
04-06-2007, 08:00 PM
Good days work done today.
Things are going slow but very well so far. Tommorows goal is to complete they Y axis.
Pictures have been updated.

ccsparky
04-07-2007, 07:42 AM
Good days work done today.
Things are going slow but very well so far. Tommorows goal is to complete they Y axis.
Pictures have been updated.

John,

Checked out your site, you've got a lot done, looks great! You'll be cutting in no time. :)

Bob

joecnc2006
04-07-2007, 12:14 PM
Joe... every step I take this machine just stays solid. Still really impressed with this design. Can't wait to see what the double rail for the X axis is going to work like (Hoping to put the Y axis on the Z axis on Sunday). Based on what I have seen so far I bet I am going to be impressed.


Yea, when i first designed and build it i was very impressed as to a difference the double rail made, so at that point i know we had an improvement to the Gas Pipe DIY machines, and did not hesitate to continue and build a complete machine with a conglomerate of all the ideas from the zone into one machine. So I would believe it is everyones design here on the zone and that is why i did not want to make plans for sale and I wanted to give what ever i had to everyone here, so people like yourself could use them and built your own machine.

Thanks for a good build log as it does help others and if notthing else some darn good and enjoyable reading.

(you know those of use who enjoy this hobby others will think we are nuts... LOL)

Thanks, Joe

Buzz9075
04-07-2007, 12:20 PM
Others... after building two machines back to back .... I think my family thinks I am nuts :)

I think everyone might have missed my question on Lock Tite. I am assuming that because I am using lock washers all over the place I don't need locktite, can others confirm this. Really don't want to pull out the nut bucket once I get it going.

John

joecnc2006
04-07-2007, 01:22 PM
Others... after building two machines back to back .... I think my family thinks I am nuts :)

I think everyone might have missed my question on Lock Tite. I am assuming that because I am using lock washers all over the place I don't need locktite, can others confirm this. Really don't want to pull out the nut bucket once I get it going.

John

I did not use locktight on any of mine, you may not want to if you want to do some maint. on the machine lateron down the road.

Joe

Buzz9075
04-07-2007, 10:09 PM
Excellent, lock tite makes such a mess if you ever want to work on stuff again.

Work went slow today had a few interuptions, but managed to get the Y axis assemble and added some addition options I learned about this morning. I am still on schedule to mount the X axis tomorrow.... Actually I have no choice I have been told by the boss, I must have the games room back to normal by 2pm tomorrow for 18 guests coming over. Where am I going to hide this machine, under a blanket :) ... sure won't be able to fit under the pool table once I connect it up to the X axis. Got a feeling the air hockey table will be out of commission for the day...

Few mods I added. Place a 1.5" * 1/8" angle iron up one side as others indicated it helped with sturdiness, I would have done both sides but only had enough for 1.

I also changed up the bolts that are used to tighten up the bearings to full threads and put two nuts on the outside. So now I have nylon nuts on the inside and two nuts on the outside. Once I have the unit set I should be able to easily lock it down.

I tried to figure out how to put the thread rod through the torsion box... but it got to complicated so I just ran it where others are running them.

I added a couple of bolts on the permiter of the gantry sides as some indicate a possibility of seperation of the 1/2 material. Figured $1 and 10 minutes = piece of mind.

Pictures have been updated.

metalmagic
04-07-2007, 10:27 PM
Hello to All:
Thought I should write a few words, I am at present "Trying" to build a hydraulic Ring roller loosely copying the one pictured on one of the websites I have visited. I should simply buy one but I am always up to the chalange, it does not appear too hard, the drive roller seems to be coated with rubber or something I suppose to grip the metal better. I am going to drive it electrically through a gear reducer and chain.
My shop is rather well equipped, I have a CNC plasma table, 12" swing lathe, small hobby lathe, drill presses, mig/tig/spool gun, Mobile 250Amp gas miller welder, 30 ton press and lots of other tools but I do not have a ring roller or a milling machine with these I can begin building my dream. By the way it took me close to 40 years to gather up all these toys.

Buzz9075
04-08-2007, 02:40 PM
Got the Y axis mounted on the Z axis.. Pictures are updated. won't be long before chips fly... estimate 3 weeks work left to go.

joecnc2006
04-08-2007, 05:58 PM
Looking good, you should be finish way before 3 weeks... :)

How do the Axis slide?

Buzz9075
04-09-2007, 09:27 AM
So far the axis slide beautifully. At this point all I have checked is that all bearings stay in contact to the rails when rolled across the full length of the X axis (a good sign to me). Going to investigate a little closer today.

thkoutsidthebox
04-09-2007, 10:08 AM
Hi John,
I just stumbled across this thread, so I missed the commentary to go with the build on your site! Its all looking great. :)

Buzz9075
04-09-2007, 10:48 AM
Glad you found it... The fun has only just begun!

Buzz9075
04-09-2007, 12:12 PM
Starting to think about calibration of the machine. Any one got a set of steps to go through to properly calibarte and align the machine?

John

thkoutsidthebox
04-09-2007, 02:56 PM
I can't help with your calibration Buzz, but is there any chance you could measure the actual footprint of the machine for me when you have a minute?

Im just curious, it looks much bigger in your last pic than in any other photo I've seen on the zone. Also I want to compare the footprint vs working area size to my own build. I think joe's might make better use of the space available.

Thanks. :)

Buzz9075
04-09-2007, 05:12 PM
Some one pointed out that no one is taking pictures with people in them and so no one has a reference on really how big this machine is. That is why I included pictures of the entire room and one with me in it for others to refernce. While I knew approxiametly how big it was it sure feels bigger when you finally get it together... and it sure fells studier than I expected.

There are lots of things to take into consideration. Mine with every thing presently on it but the motors is about 46W*67L*37H. Add about 6" for motors and 2" all around you have: 56"W * 76L * 46H. These numbers are not exact, but close (did not have anyone to help me line the tape measure up).

Things I don't think others are taking into account. How far the machine leans back when over the end, how far over the end the router can hang, springs to componsate for whip (after getting the X running this morning this is a must to address... I have it working but got a feeling I am going to need to review it again when I get the motors installed.

Buzz9075
04-09-2007, 10:35 PM
Did not get so much done today.... brain was a little foggy.

Got the dust collection prototype in place. Used a picture I saw from JLT a while back to base the drawing from. Once the prototype is proven the base of it will be made with clear plastic so you can see in side the machining area through it (like CNCJay discussed in his video). For now I will put leather around it, till I can get me some brushes.

Worked a little on the whip of the X axis lead screw, springs helped a little so far but not perfect. Found that the friction between the spring and the washer was causing a lot of heat. I came up with an idea I think might work. It is documented on the web page and I am looking for some feed back on the idea. Let me know what you think.

Pictures are just compiling now... should be up in about 10 minutes.

joecnc2006
04-10-2007, 12:41 AM
what if you add a smaller O.D. washer between this one and the bearing so the washer is only touching the inside race of the bearing and not the outside?

I will have to study your drawing, not sure exactly what you are designing, but will look when i have a little more time ...

Joe

Edit: forgot picture.

Buzz9075
04-10-2007, 09:02 AM
I added another drawing that will hopefully make it easier to understand.

In order to implement the threaded rod option is going to be need to be moved to inside or below the torsion box. Going to work on this again tonight.

As well I think putting a bushing on the other side of the torsion box will help in holding the lead screw in place by a little. Going to try this out tonight.

Buzz9075
04-11-2007, 08:31 AM
I have a feeling that one of my 1/4 nuts might have stripped the MDF inside the Z axis head (and I have not even tightened anything down yet... must have done something wrong). Oh well going to take it down this weekend or as soon as I get all the other work done.

I have been seeing discussions of changing over to T nuts for the z-axis. Has any one done this who has already installed the hex nuts. If so is there anything I need to be away of or do when I remove the nuts?

joecnc2006
04-11-2007, 09:02 AM
I have not used the t-nuts on this machine but using it on my project i am building now, I placed pictures in my thread of hpw to use them, also if the cap nuts on the end of the screw is to long you mat need to cut the threaded portion down a little bit with a dremel or hacksaw in a vise, if you do not use the cap nuts (bronze color in my pictures) you may add an alumn strip or block where the bolts contact the bearing block.

Also note you may want to use an extra washer, lockwasher and nut to lock it into place once adjusted.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=283035&postcount=1304

joe

Buzz9075
04-11-2007, 09:09 AM
THanks joe, I had seen them. Will have to review there usage when I open the z axis and find out why my bolt is skipping when I try and turn it. Really hoping that I have only push the nut out of the hole. Really don't remember excerting any reall force on the bolt.

ccsparky
04-12-2007, 08:55 AM
THanks joe, I had seen them. Will have to review there usage when I open the z axis and find out why my bolt is skipping when I try and turn it. Really hoping that I have only push the nut out of the hole. Really don't remember excerting any reall force on the bolt.

John,

When I was assembling my Z-Axis carriage I managed to knock one of the nuts out of place. Thought at first I had stripped out the socket but that was not the case. What I did was to put the nut back, sand around all four nuts and apply some titebond all the way around the nut and up on to the edge and top of the nut while not getting it in the threaded hole. It worked real well. After it dried I applied a little force to try and dislodge the nut but it stayed in place. Just a thought.

Bob

Buzz9075
04-12-2007, 09:09 AM
ccsparky... thanks for the information. I am really hoping this is the problem. Hoping to open it up tonight and see just what is happening... as I am sure you are aware this is not a quick job to get the Z axis casing of the machine.

I was thinking if this is the problem I might mount a plate up inside to ensure the bolts do not come out again. The plate would just attach to the top and have hols for the bolts to come through but retain the nuts. Pretty sure I can do this with a 1/4 piece of something as thear is 1/4 thread rods going through above the bearing plate.

I will review and probably implement both ideas. Clue them in and plate them in. Should not move any more.


BTW: Pictures have been updated.

Buzz9075
04-13-2007, 08:17 AM
Opened it up last night and yup it was stripped. Nut was just spinning freely in the MDF. I must have done something stupid and did not realize it at the time. I removed all the nuts and replaced them with T Nuts. Big job took almost 3 hours. When I was done I covered up the T nuts with a 1/4 wood to ensure the T nuts don't want to fall out. If you do put in T nuts from my testing I would not bang them into the MDF as it will not set as strong as compressing it in with a nut and bolt from the other side of the MDF.

Got two questions:

1. Tried working on the backlash parts again. Still confused, can someone let me know the best way to install the back lash system.

2. As the machine is going to get fully assembled with motors this weekend I would like to calibrate the machine as well. Does any one have a good procedure for calibrating and aligning the machine.

Buzz9075
04-14-2007, 11:05 PM
I figured out what was wrong with the motor skipping steps between 10 and 20IPM. the heat sinks had dust in them. This happened before and the problem was the tape between the chip and the sink was not stuck properly ... amazing what a little dust can do.

Got the Y and Z axis wired up today. Big job due to bad advice from the electronics store... but I got er done.

Pictures are updated.

ccsparky
04-15-2007, 08:03 AM
I figured out what was wrong with the motor skipping steps between 10 and 20IPM. the heat sinks had dust in them. This happened before and the problem was the tape between the chip and the sink was not stuck properly ... amazing what a little dust can do.

Got the Y and Z axis wired up today. Big job due to bad advice from the electronics store... but I got er done.

Pictures are updated.

John, Your machine is look really good!

I like your idea on the x-axis acme rod support, I'm working on pretty much the exact same thing, the parts may be a little different but the idea is the same :)

Bob

Buzz9075
04-15-2007, 08:16 AM
Thanks, sparky.

BTW: at this point I am not implementing the X axis support as I foiund by puttingn another bearing on the other side of the torsion box 95% of my whip came out, I also did some testing on the Y axis and found the same results. Once I get my machine running I plan on making another bearing mount for the Y axis and implement.

When you are done making your support can you forward me some pics... Thanks

ccsparky
04-15-2007, 08:52 AM
Thanks, sparky.

BTW: at this point I am not implementing the X axis support as I foiund by puttingn another bearing on the other side of the torsion box 95% of my whip came out, I also did some testing on the Y axis and found the same results. Once I get my machine running I plan on making another bearing mount for the Y axis and implement.

When you are done making your support can you forward me some pics... Thanks

Good idea with the second bearing!
Working on the support is not a top priority but I'll sure post the pictures when it's done. The idea is to use two 1/2" t-tracks mounted in slots cut out of the 1/4" mdf on the bottom side of the table. The slots would be 6" in from the out edge on each side. Use a piece of hdpe about 2/3 the length of the table as the slides for the supports to attach to. The slides would be 12" wide so they would have 12" of surface that would come into contact with the gantry bottom torsion box making it a pretty even push as it goes along.
For the 1/2" support I was thinking of just drilling a 1/2" hole in each one for the acme rod to slide through.
Like I said it will be awhile as it's not a high priority, I've got another project I'm working on, ready for this...

I'm thinking of mounting one of my extra stepper motors above the router. It would be the 4th axis. The stepper has dual 1/4" shafts to attach couplings and 1/4 rod. At the end of each rod would be a gear that would raise and lower a dust collector attachement. I'm still in the drawing stages, so I have no idea if it will work.
The attachment would be much like Joe's orginal with the 1" brush.

35476 35477

The gear and gear rack are plastic. The gear rack will be in a slide attachment mounted on each side of the Z-axis carriage.
Well it's just an idea, and maybe a goofy one at that. We'll see can't blame a guy for trying! :)

Buzz9075
04-15-2007, 08:57 AM
Cool idea but who is going to drive the dust collector in you g code. You would have to custom write each filel to adjust it for you as you machine away to raise or lower based on cutter length, material and such.

ccsparky
04-15-2007, 09:13 AM
Cool idea but who is going to drive the dust collector in you g code. You would have to custom write each filel to adjust it for you as you machine away to raise or lower based on cutter length, material and such.

It will be part of the start macro in Mach3. I've been fooling around with it a little and when a tool change is required the z-axis is raised to what ever height you set up in the macro. You would add the dust collector axis to the macro also and it would be raised only when doing a tool change is found. Once the tool is changed it is lowered by the macro to it's working height.
This will be used with the ATC I have and only when I get the tool holder built. All of my bits are set to the same height in the collets so tool length is exactly the same for each tool.

I'm using VCarvePro and a tool change is added to the g-code for each different tool used by VCarvePro. There's a setting for automatic tool change in Mach3. I can't remember it's exact location as my pc is at the shop. Anytime a tool change is needed the start macro is run automatically so any code you put into it will be run.
It's really very simple and I've been having a lot of fun playing with it. The macro's are really cool as I see no limits to what you can do with them.

Bob

ccsparky
04-15-2007, 09:17 AM
Also material thickness should not come into play on this as the dust collector's working height will always be the same with the tool lengths always being the same once set up properly to the same lenght in the collets.
When I get to the shop I'll take pictures of my tool holders and the ATC.
The way I have it set up now once I set zero for the z-axis it's always the same with each tool used. That's one of the great things about the ATC. It makes using and changing tools so much nicer! :)

Buzz9075
04-15-2007, 09:42 AM
That is the piece of the puzzle I was missing, you do no plan on working with different thinkness or items that might get in the way of the static position dust collector.

What are you doing to keep the suction up when the vacuum moves of the table. I have been doudling on this one but until I get the machine up and running I will work with the one on it now.

Just got the X axis running, so far full till stall a little at the ends. Suspect that will get removed when I finishes aligning the system. Works perfectly at 80IPM, just purrs along with acc of 4.

ccsparky
04-15-2007, 10:02 AM
That is the piece of the puzzle I was missing, you do no plan on working with different thinkness or items that might get in the way of the static position dust collector.

What are you doing to keep the suction up when the vacuum moves of the table. I have been doudling on this one but until I get the machine up and running I will work with the one on it now.

Just got the X axis running, so far full till stall a little at the ends. Suspect that will get removed when I finishes aligning the system. Works perfectly at 80IPM, just purrs along with acc of 4.

Congradulations! 80IPM is great!

All the material I will be working with will be flat, be it 1/2", 3/4" or what ever. It will lose suction I suspect when it runs off the end of the table but everything I'm working on should keep it on the table.
Some suction will also be lost when the brush goes off the end of the material when cutting on the outer edges. It should be no different than any of the dust collectors being used right now as it's the same thing just with the added feature of being able to raise it up out of the way.
This idea is for having a set up like JLT's tool tray and ATC. I would think that any dust collector be it brush type or the floating type would come into contact with the adjacent tools and knock them out of place. By being able to raise it up enough I hope to be able to avoid that.
I doubt it will ever be perfect because I see no way to avoid loosing suction when the attachment runs past the end of the work material or off the end of the table itself. We'll see how it goes. If it doesn't work, oh well it will be fun just trying :)

Keep up the excellent work!

Bob

Buzz9075
04-15-2007, 11:47 AM
If anyone is interested I put together a quick piece of code that will lines of random G to exercise a machine within a given table size. While the parameters can be passed the defaults are:
Max x=47
Max y=24
Max Z=-5
Max Feed=80
Max Radius=10
Max Lines =100
No parameters = run with above defaults
7 Parameters=run with supplied values
Any thing else supply syntax on usage.

I would not recommend using it without limit switches in place. Running it now while I clean up.

To use reanem the file to an exe and run with the following syntax
RanfomCNCMoves.exe > CNCFile.Txt

Load output file into Mach3.. Its rather cool the tool path. You might want to check the size of the machining area by checking your max's and minimum's in Mach.

The machine sounds so sweet (and it is not even aligned yet alot of the bottom bearings are just barely touching). Tuning comes after cleanup.

NOTE: This code is supplied for use at your own responsibiltiy and at your own risk.

Buzz9075
04-16-2007, 11:16 AM
Pictures were updated.

I started doing calibrations, call it phase 1 (before I can machine anything). I have included pictures on what I did... sort of made sense to me. I will do a second phase of alginment and calibarion when I get it in the machining center and can start cutting. This will include testing the cutting is cutting a right angles on both sides of the cutter, and that X and Y axis are cutting perpendicular to each other.

If any one has anything in addition I should be doing please let me know.

sc351cobra
04-16-2007, 06:29 PM
If it would help I have a DXF and DWG file of attachment. It plots
a 48-inch X 27-inch Y and 4 arcs. The green lines are not in file just show the 48x27 area. This is how you would check a plotter and how we used to check our drafting machines back in the old days.
A line drawn through the arc intersection points, if they do not intersect on X and Y would be the out of square amount.
Lonnie

Buzz9075
04-16-2007, 06:50 PM
I like your idea. Does it matter what size the arcs are. I could then just mount up a spring loaded pen and plot this diagram without even needing a cutter.

sc351cobra
04-17-2007, 06:20 AM
The size of the arcs does not matter what you are doing is creating the perpendicular bisector of the line with a pair of arcs the same size.I can make a file with any size X and Y lines if you would like.
Lonnie

Buzz9075
04-17-2007, 06:38 AM
Thnaks Lonnie:

I am OK making the test diagram... thanks for the offer.

thkoutsidthebox
04-17-2007, 06:42 AM
I'd like to run this test when my machine is finished too if thats ok. I'll take whatever size file would work for buzz. :)

Buzz9075
04-17-2007, 08:23 AM
Thkoutsidebox: Once I figure this out I plan on writing a small piece of code that will ask a few questions and generate the G Codes to create the pattern... will post it back here when done. Probably be end of week.

I have also modified the RandMove program I posted recently to allow for command line values to be entered and a document NCC file. Once I am happy with it I will post it as well.

As usual with software I take no resposibility for the software, you use it at your own risk.

Any one got an easy to make spring loaded pen idea I can mount in my router? I have 1/2, 3/8 and 1/4 collets (if it matters). Need it to run this test.

Weldtutor
04-17-2007, 09:40 AM
Any one got an easy to make spring loaded pen idea I can mount in my router? I have 1/2, 3/8 and 1/4 collets (if it matters). Need it to run this test.

Hi Buzz
See HERE (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16634&page=14) (Post #160) for a spring loaded pen picture & a DXF of it. This is what I used to check my CNC plasma table.

You could use the same idea & modify it to suit your set-up/collets.

Great machine & record of your build.:)
WT

Buzz9075
04-17-2007, 10:02 AM
Thanks WT for the information... Wow that looks to easy to make... will give it a go tonight.

So here is a plot of what I plan on drawing... Now armed with a pen holder I am hopefully to get it done tonight between paint coats on the new machining center. If you see any issues with it let me know.

ThkOutsidethebox I might have stepped up to tomuch when I said i would right a small piece of code. There is some math I don't know how to calculate to cause only the arc and not full circles... as such at this point I am going to retract my statement of custom code but once proven to work for the calibration I will post the G codes I use for the test.

Man I hope this works this will be so much easier than cutting squares and checking with squares to ensure X and Y are totally square.

thkoutsidthebox
04-17-2007, 10:45 AM
Thats ok Buzz, G-Code would be useful aswell once its not too big for my machine. :cheers:

Buzz9075
04-17-2007, 11:07 AM
What size would you like for your machine?

thkoutsidthebox
04-17-2007, 11:43 AM
lol...whatever size also fits your machine! :) Don't want you to do it twice just for me. Mine will be about 2ft x 3ft working area.

sc351cobra
04-17-2007, 08:23 PM
I can creat a DWG/DFX file any size you need just need to know the X and Y length you are able to plot.
Lonnie

thkoutsidthebox
04-18-2007, 06:37 AM
My x will definitely be minimum 22 inches, my Y will be min 36 inches. Thanks cobra and Buzz. :cheers:

This will be great to do, now I just have to finish the machine! :rolleyes: I'm hoping to be done with the building in 2 weeks, then it might take me another day or two to set up the electronics and tidy everything up.

L8rs. :)

Buzz9075
04-18-2007, 06:56 AM
I got a pen/pencil holder working yesterday only I figured I would be able to use a spring from a pen or find a spring around the house. NOT!!! Anyway I will get a spring today and work on it again tonight. Will post pictures when I get it going.

3 days it goes into the machining center :). All is looking good to meet the schedule. Should be live this weekend.

No worries about the drawing size... once I get it working I will post a few sizes for people to pick from to match there machines and post here.

sc351cobra
04-18-2007, 07:42 AM
Here are DFX and DWG files for the 36 X 22 lines.

Weldtutor
04-18-2007, 08:59 AM
Anyway I will get a spring today and work on it again tonight.
Princess Auto usually has a reasonably priced, bag of assorted small springs in their surplus area.

thkoutsidthebox
04-18-2007, 09:52 AM
Here are DFX and DWG files for the 36 X 22 lines.

Great!! :) Thankyou very much. I'll download them to my laptop later as Im in work at the moment. :cheers:

Buzz9075
04-18-2007, 02:37 PM
Thanks WeldTutor....Got a really nice spring at lunch at the corner hardware store (and a speeding and front plate ticket getting there) . Should be able to run some tests tonight.

I have also updated the source code I supplied in post 173.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=285949&postcount=173

The code will now run with defaults, document the paramters in the output file and allow for parameters to be passed to from the command line. I have also added every five points check if you are not within 1" of the max's do a random size circle that will fit within the contraints for the maxes supplied.

Again I supply the code to be used at your own risk and responsiblity. If you don't have limit switches I don't recommend running this code as the paths are extremly random.

Buzz9075
04-18-2007, 11:14 PM
I got the pencil going with the drawing. It work well and it was clear that the axis was out of line. Took me about 1.5 hours to figure out the adjusts to get it aligned. Will be much faster next time. It helped alot to use a square on the intersecting lines to determine which way to swing the gantry. I will post some pictures tomorrow on the activities.

Only problem is after I was done the gantry got a stutter (upper end of gantry really shakes) and for the life of me I could not get it to come out. It only really occurs in one direction (moving towards the motor) and was really promonent in the middle but still there on the ends. I will continue working on it tomorrow, going to remove the lead screw to see what the axis feels like (maybe I have it to tight). If anyone knows what I might have done wrong I am all ears.

joecnc2006
04-18-2007, 11:43 PM
if you have it to tight this can happen, turn the adjustment bolts in an untighten direction 1/4 turn each, making sure they are turn evenly to each other to hold alignment.

look forward to your writeup.

joe

joecnc2006
04-18-2007, 11:45 PM
Also, did you see the dust collector i made for the ATC, used my existing design, it works really well.

Buzz9075
04-19-2007, 06:52 AM
Thanks Joe. THis is what I was working on last night... Figured I had it to tight, but you really can't tell with the lead screw in so this morning before work I am going to take it out for a bit and play. I turned the screws back three times 1/4 turn while it had effects they were not possitive enough.

Thinking it over during the night... I have a feeling the stutter is one side is moving a little ahead of other then it is catching up and repeating this.

Going to try aligning and calibrating close with the lead screw out. Figure I should be able to get the Z axis moving freely again, then draw a straight line on the X axis, then have the motors draw the Y axis line and check with square. I really hope it works as I am out of time and Friday deadline looms to move the machine (not as easy to work in the machining booth as it is on the pool table).

I saw you dust collector, and I am still processing the information in my mind for my machine. The design looks great I like that you can still see in. I like the compactness of the design and the curves give it that cool look. Few things for me.
- I am running 4" pipe on the dust collector, if I reduce it I loose vacuum power as dust collectors are not like a vaccum when you reduce the pipe you don't increase the speed of the air so I need to do my best to stay at 4" all the way throuhg the system. This gets tricky in the amount of room you consume in the bends as you want a like additional room to remove the resistance from the air going around corners (this is really tricky with the floating design as the room is more limiting for the bend).
- if I put in the Automatic part of the TC (A)TC :) how is this going to work when I get it together, if I only used the TC I think yours is perfect. How will the tool changer work with a static possitioned head.

For now I might go with the static head like you have and then design one that works with ATC.

To work on my stutter....

Buzz9075
04-19-2007, 08:07 AM
Yahoo... I figured it out without even taking out the lead screw. From writing the last post and the time to get to the basement I thought you know maybe I am not working tight enough.... so I did the following.

I ran a program at 50IPM back and forth on the X and watched what happend while I loosened stuff of. Nothing just kept stuttering. So I started tightening down past where I thought it should have been tightened to, I got them all nice and tight (evenly applying the pressure). And presto the stutter starts coming out nicely so I kept giving it pressure and now I left with a stutter that is so small that when I lightly put my finger on the router head you have nothing but purrrrrrfectionnnnnnn. YESSSS!!!!

I then drew a set of cross hairs, I was back to where I was at yesterday NOT square. Within 10 minutes this time (not 1.5hrs) I was back in square.

I can only hope that I have the Z axis flat as I really don't want to machine the first board. Will be checking this tonight/tomorrow morning.

Now I am left with running the Random code again to see how it reacts at a variety of speeds and actions. Will do this tonight.

Joe: I loved the method to align the axis while teadious it sure is easier than other designes I have reviewed and my last machine. Great job!!!!

OH ya one thing (I learned the hard way). When you adjust the machine make sure to check you limit switches still align.... and then that that the lead screw still aligns with your bearings (Yikes that means I have to do this tonight as well.... :( Better now than in the booth.. while it can be done just a little more difficult as space is a restriction)

thkoutsidthebox
04-19-2007, 09:17 AM
:banana: Congrats Buzz :banana: :)

Buzz9075
04-19-2007, 09:28 AM
Pictures have been updated.

Buzz9075
04-20-2007, 08:32 AM
The move occurs tonight, the big guys are coming over at 6pm to move it into place.... if it ain't ready now to bad its going in.

I have a question on bearings. I found some bearings at $2.50CDN they are R8RS, then I checked mine and they are marked R8Z then I looked again at what Joe had listed and it was R8ZZ. Does anyone know what all RS, Z and ZZ mean on these bearings? Will the RS work on these machines OK?

Did more working on a aligning the machine and a little machining (shhhhh.... don't tell the wife :)). A few things I have learned over the last week I thought I would share:
Tried to avoid aligning the bearings on the end till you have everything setup exactly the way you want it. The smallest change can make a huge change in the location of the lead screw in reference with the bearing. For example yesterdays tightening down of the X axis move the lead screw by over 1/16 if not 1/8(I think closer to 1/8). This is a big move for the bearing.
Put marks on the top of your bolts so that you can actually reference the bolts turning and be able to reference the location of the bolts when you lock them down and turn them... just makes life easier. I use a pencil so that I can rub it of and set new ones when I need. Might even paint the heads white so that I can see the mark easier than pencil on shiny metal.
Tighten the axis down tighter than you think. (Joe you might want to comment on this for me). At first I was tightening down the axis so that I could easily move the gantry or carrage back and forth(with the lead screw out). Well in the last 24 hours I have found this to be undesirable for two reasons: 1 - you might get a stutter/shakes, 2 - with it being loose like this the machine appears to have a tendancy to vibrate and wiggle around a little more. Last night I did a little more work on the X axis, I now have it so smooth that all you hear is the purr of the motor and the often creacking of somethign settling in or the cleaning ladies moving along the rails. When I fired up the router things vibrated more than I liked so I tightened down the Y axis to the same level as the X axis and wow what a differnce in noise and vibration. When I had to realign the bearing/lead screw I found I had tightened it down to a point that I found it difficult to move the axis with my hand, the machine actually moved when I first tried to pull on it (scared me). Xylotex motors do not appear to have a problem I was AMAZED. (Can't wait to machine the second bearing part for the Y axis, like I did for the X axis, I am expecting to hear nothing but motor after installing it).
When tightening the lead screw nuts, turn on your motors on so that you have some resistance in the lead screw and can tighten it up a little more, this removes a little of the backlash... now now just a little tighter (don't cause to much friction).

Thats it for tips to day.

I will post pictures later today of some chips a flying :) Actually I was drilling the holes for the table. Sparky I think you will like this method for putting the screws into the table.

Joe, I have been thinking more about your carpet tape. While I plan on imbedding t slots I am still very insterested in how you are using the carpet tape. When I think carpet tape I think thick wide sticky tape. Thinking about putting this stuff on the sacarfical plate the following thoughts come to mind:
Glue? Is this not a pain
The sacrafical board is all cut up, how are you using it in on this usually rough surface
How much are you apply, strips, spot tabs
Glue residue on the wood after you are done
Are you clamping down with anything else, I would think that while it will hold it down it would want to wiggle around a little.

The more I play with this machine the more i like the design... can't wait to see it machine (with such a busy weekend a still final stuff to do will probably be mid next week before the chips really fly)

bp092
04-20-2007, 08:50 PM
Buzz, can't wait to see the pics. I've had a lot of experience with carpet tape and I switched over to it since joe told me about it. The stuff is great, its in green boxes at home depot and has an incredible tack to it. The last thing I cut was an 1 1/2" thick slab sign, around 15"x30" and I used 4 pieces of carpet tape and a screw or two (only because it was slightly warped). It didn't move at all, and if it was flat I could have gotten away with just carpet tape. At first I was skeptical and worrysom about using just tape as it COULD move but it doesnt. you dont need a lot either, just a 3-4" piece on each corner, depends on what you're cutting out. To get the piece off just use a thin and wide putty knife and wedge it out, it should take some effort but not a lot. One thing that helps is setting up a fence on your table so you can sit it down in that corner and then drop it in and take a rubber mallet to it to get it to stick well because you only get one shot with the tape, if you take it off you loose a lot of the holding power of the adhesive. The tape sticks but it doesn't leave any residue on solids or mdf. Sometimes it wiggles, it depends on how flat your material is, obviously the more surface area of tape you use the less of the chance, but you don't have to be so generous when applying it. Main reason I like it is that you know you will NEVER hit a screw head or a clamp. I've already come close to doing both!

Buzz9075
04-21-2007, 08:18 AM
It's in.... went in nice and easy ... fits like a glove 1/2" on each side to spare, 1" on the top and 2" on the end. I think it looks awesome in the machining booth.... no one else around me seems to care, their just glad the pool table is back.

Thanks for the additional advice on the tape... I am headed down to Home Depot to get some this morning.

I will try and post pictures today but can't promise as I have a pretty busy weekend and summer has pulled in 70-75F here this weekend.

Buzz

ccsparky
04-21-2007, 08:22 AM
Sounds good!

Thanks for the all the tips, can't wait to see your machine in action!
Keep up the good work!

Bob

Buzz9075
04-22-2007, 09:06 PM
As expected I basically got nothing down this weekend.

Pictures have been uploaded. Enjoy.

joecnc2006
04-22-2007, 09:34 PM
I saw the way you Sq. your machine, seemed like a lengthy process, all i did was machine a line on the very left side for the length of the X-Axis, then layed a carpenters sq. in the grove then drew a line with a pen right on the top of the X-Axis torsion box (This way it is always there and easy to check) then jog the Machine to the lecf line using a v-carve bit place it at Z-0 on the line then jog to the other edge of the Y-Axis and see how far out of sq. it is as well as the Z0 at the same time, then do apropreate adjustments and check again, this is a very fast way of checking the machine.

Joe

Buzz9075
04-23-2007, 08:51 AM
Thanks Joe, now this is what I was looking for in the questions I had asked on calibration methods people were using.

Buzz9075
04-23-2007, 10:57 AM
After talking with my buddy who is making the second machine this weekend about me only putting one brace on the gantry sides... I check this morning how straight they are... one side is perfect... the other side NOT good. Going to have to fix this, aluminum. Advice for others, make sure you put braces on both sides.

Buzz9075
04-25-2007, 01:57 PM
Having lots of fun aligning the machine perfectly. Lets see square X and Y axis, level the Y axis to the X bed, then ensure the cutter is square to the material (this one is trickest so far). I aligning the cutter to the table I split the MDF in the Z axis carrage... while all is working fine I don't want to finallize the callibration of the machine as I am scared of making it inoperatable.

So Chips are flying but not for pleasure but to make a new carrage for the Z axis (should have it fixed in a day or so). Sure is nice to watch it move fast and cut at speeds I could only dream the last machine would move at let alone machine something.

Also been testing tapees... amazing the differences in them.

Attached an aluminum angle on the other side of the gantry... as it bends some I am thinking about changing both for steal 1/4" angle but this is going to weigh lots.

I have update pictures. www.cncmachine.phillipsfamily.ca

joecnc2006
04-25-2007, 05:11 PM
Man sorry to hear about the z-axis, but atleast you have all the files done to make another,..

Hmmmm, a self healing machine, makes its own parts. LOL

Glad to hear it is atlease a little better than your last machine, it is looking good so far sitting in its booth.

Cool idea about the metal plate on the machine bed to stop all when reached.

The carpet tape i use the fiberglass type (white color) woork well for me.

On your table do you have an area cut out for accessing the leadscrew and anti-backlash but on the X-Axis? this makes it easier to lube and adjust.

Buzz9075
04-25-2007, 06:05 PM
Maybe I should name it Da Borg :)

All the parts are cut for the Z axis... man is it sweet cutting with this machine.... I have 1/4" cuts 1/4" deep going at 60IPM and I bet I could have pushed it faster.

A LITTLE better... It's night and day difference...

The tape I am prefering looks like weaved fiberglass... Not sure if it actually fiberglass I will post a closer picture next time for you to reference.

Yup I have a port to access the mechanical part of the gantry. Think it is 6 * 6. Greasing I will do from the side (atleast I am hoping to).

bp092
04-25-2007, 07:26 PM
yeah I use the fiberglass carpet tape as well, it has an amazing initial tack to it and is incredibly strong for what it is.. it's in a green box at home depot, maybe 2 1/2" wide roll. Where are you guys getting lithium grease at in home depot? What section are you finding it in? I'm afraid to ask an employee there. Last time I asked for any help was probably 2 years ago after dealing with so much crap that they call help. I even use their self checkouts; a completely independent buying process. For example, the last two times I've gone, I've been quite unsuccessful in finding ANYONE in the store to get me to cut me the carpet liner so I can build the new dust collection attachment. I asked one guy the other night and he refused, saying it wasn't his department, he was the only one on that side of the store! I might drive 25 minutes just so I can actually get help at lowes!

/rant

Buzz, I like all of your photos, I looked at every single one. I think it's cool watching you build it and appreciate the time you take to document it. It will help someone down the line significantly; just as looking at sparkys, joes, jays and davids did for me. Pictures are worth a lot when it comes time to assemble the machine and do it right. Some of your photos show a drill chuck that hts sells. Do you really like extending that drill bit that much? Is there any flex or trouble swinging it? Just seems like it's extended like 6", something you wouldn't catch me doing with a router. Maybe I'm wrong..

ccsparky
04-25-2007, 07:31 PM
Maybe I should name it Da Borg :)

All the parts are cut for the Z axis... man is it sweet cutting with this machine.... I have 1/4" cuts 1/4" deep going at 60IPM and I bet I could have pushed it faster.

A LITTLE better... It's night and day difference...

The tape I am prefering looks like weaved fiberglass... Not sure if it actually fiberglass I will post a closer picture next time for you to reference.

Yup I have a port to access the mechanical part of the gantry. Think it is 6 * 6. Greasing I will do from the side (atleast I am hoping to).

Now you see it... now you don't. I like it! The enclosure sure is a great idea!
How is it working out?
Great job with your machine!!! :)
Bob

Buzz9075
04-25-2007, 07:53 PM
I tried to locate the green tape but the ones on my web site are all I located. If you get a chance could you snap a photo of tape and box.

I think the extra lenght really affected my last machine, as well as the larger router on a dremal based machine but I could never be for sure. I do known this I just cut all the Z axis carrage parts in less than 1 hour cutting time and everything was PERFECT (the machine just purrs through this stuff). The only thing I did was push a piece of drill rod through to make sure it fit properly and file down the start and stop locations. (It's glued up now).... man I really don't look forward to taking the entire gantry apart AGAIN... it's a pain in the <>$.

Glad everyone enjoys the pictures.... love seeing people are benifiting from it this time. I have documented atleast one big project a year for the last 7 years. The biggest one being at (note these links will expire when the IP changes):
http://74.104.180.20/thephillips/PhotoGallery/2003MainFloor/2003MainFloor.asp

This job was my third hardwood floor and my first tile floor. I had a blast doing it took 3 or 4 months to complete.... and my wife NEVER complained once.... my friends thought I was NUTS... but who cares they don't live hear. This floor install required that I prebuild in the fireplace.... which I installed a few years later....

Then the neighbours thought I was out of my mind when I punched a hole in the side of my house and did my first fireplace move. My nieghbour was thinking of moving when he found out I was also doing the gas (and it was my first time :)) ...

http://74.104.180.20/thephillips/PhotoGallery/2005FirePlace/2005FirePlace.asp

Buzz9075
04-25-2007, 07:55 PM
The shop has always been a great hide away for me... not used as much as now. Sure wish it was bigger. When I first designed the basement I did the sliding doors for both the furnace room and the wood shop this way I did not loose any space due to doors nor was I going to be limited to a door size for anything... which sure benifited me this time.

bp092
04-25-2007, 07:58 PM
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=96535-133-96535&lpage=none

That's the tape, hd should carry it as well. Looking at your new photos now you posted.

thkoutsidthebox
04-26-2007, 04:38 AM
Buzz, your a man after my own heart! Why pay for it to be done when you can learn to do it yourself for free (Ignoring the cost of little mishaps!). :D

Buzz9075
04-27-2007, 08:59 AM
Some more pictures have been posted.... I am going to keep my tape information gathered up in the tape section.

I was working with ply wood yesterday and found the tape did not work so well. Suspect that with T slots and tape all will be find.. for now a screw or two will work.

joecnc2006
04-27-2007, 11:28 AM
I have a 48" t-slot running on the two sides and just use a cross piece of alumn. held on the ends with the t-slots when holding smaller pieces. works good for me.

only use tape on to small of pieces, under 12"

Buzz9075
04-27-2007, 11:38 AM
That sounds like a cool way of doing it. This would also keep the clamps out of the way of the machining site. Never thought about it this way, took my idea from other pictures I saw only problem with running them up the side is I weakened my table on the edges due to the dado edges... May be I will reduce the number of cross sections and use your alluminum bar idea. At present I was planning on them every 7", with your method I could put them every 20" or so.

What size of alluminum bar are you using?

joecnc2006
05-01-2007, 08:23 AM
Buzz, did you consider or going to add some threaded rod through the gantry uprights? here is a good picture Brian took of his, which was posted in the mod and addition section. I believe he may have placed them either at 14.5" or 15" from bottom, mine are at 14.5" you can place them where ever needed just by adding some drill holes.

Buzz9075
05-01-2007, 08:28 AM
Joe, thanks for the reminder... I was thinking about this over the weekend. I had originally not placed them in as I thought the angles would do the job... but I think I will be putting them in while the machine is out of commission (redoing the entire dust collection system as the garage is a mess from dust from make in the machine).

The 14"-15" point is pretty well where the deflection occurs as well.

Thanks for reminder.

ccsparky
05-01-2007, 08:41 AM
Buzz,

Just went through your site again, your machine is looking really nice.
How is the IGUS working out?
I also like your bar cleaning ladies! :D Good idea! What material are you using?

Bob

Buzz9075
05-01-2007, 08:46 AM
Thanks Bob. It has been a labour of love :)

I love the IGUS cable just wish it was a little bit bigger but it is working PERFECTLY. After the loose wires in the last machine I knew I needed it this time. About the only complication with it is when you want to take the machine appart.

The cleaning ladies are pieces of 6/7 Ounce leather. They are working well, just need to readjust them every time you do a calibration... just like you do the bearing alignment.

Buzz9075
05-02-2007, 06:53 AM
Things have been going slowly as all the summer stuff is kicking in full time (boat is coming out, yards need work, gardens need attending, pool needs cleaning... seems like it just never ends :). After the boss was in the garage the other day I had to work on the dust collection system.

I managed to fix the Z axis and align it without having to replace it. Basically screw the top of the garage to the side and put a few screws back in to keep the MDF together. Appears to have worked very well. IMO I would always put a screw from the top and bottom to the front and back to secure them in place or atleast glue them when assembling but glue will not work on the center part of MDF where it likes to split.

Pictures are updated with dust collector work.

thkoutsidthebox
05-02-2007, 07:28 AM
Looks great Buzz. I really like you machining booth / hideaway ! :) Is there space in there for a bar? :D

Buzz9075
05-02-2007, 08:01 AM
Sure, can't you see them, their are 4 large bars on the lower level and 2 smaller bars on the upper level :). The occupance of these bars tend to roll around allot when the action heats up. :cool:

joecnc2006
05-02-2007, 09:03 AM
Buzz,

Here is a PDF of your build if you like to download it or others for a quick reference or just plain good reading... :)

Machine looks good, hope it works out well for you and produces the results profitable parts.

Joe

Buzz9075
05-02-2007, 09:21 AM
Thanks, 75 Pages never realized I had posted that much information. No wonder it is taking 15+ minutes to recompile my web pages each time I post new pictures and text.

joecnc2006
05-02-2007, 11:40 AM
Where did you get your cyclone lid?

Joe

Buzz9075
05-02-2007, 11:44 AM
I had a black one but I could not see in and as such I could not tell what was going wrong, so I purchased this one. This one is specific to Canada, if you start with www.leevalley.com and head down the path of wood working tools, dust collector, cyclone it will ask you US or Canada. You should be able to get the same item in the US listing.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=30282&cat=1,42401&ap=1

Buzz9075
05-03-2007, 09:56 AM
I installed the two treaded rods below the Z axis after I loosened up the gantry bearing boxes. Tightened everything up and all appears nice and straight and aligned.

Got all the T slots cut. I was going to reduce the number installed based on Joe's information, but figured for this time it only took 10 more minutes to put them all in so I did them all while I had it outside. Will adjust the numbers to meet my desires on the next plate that is made.

Finished up the dust collector booth, just got a little sealing to complete later today.

I have a feeling I have rounded third base and head for home with the completing the machine. Hoping I can machine the levelling plate tonight which would mean I only have the fine tuning the machine square.

joecnc2006
05-03-2007, 10:19 AM
Buzz, in your log on website you mentioned about the ring in the middle on the inside impears the cyclone action and was thinking of placing it on the outside, you will need to add alot of screws with fender washers to keep the trashcan from collapsing because remember the dust collector will cause a vacume on the trashcan.

The ring i placed in mine is 3/4" i.d. to o.d. and 1/2" thick mdf.

Joe

Buzz9075
05-03-2007, 10:32 AM
So you placed your inside the can and it still works without letting the dust head up the the collector?

My existing one is 1.5" from ID to OD.

I have seen the can collapse last time I worked with this. Not sure why but it was not collapsing when I tested it the other day. Might be that the hose was not hooked up the vacuum head. Will see tonight.

joecnc2006
05-03-2007, 10:47 AM
So you placed your inside the can and it still works without letting the dust head up the the collector?

My existing one is 1.5" from ID to OD.

I have seen the can collapse last time I worked with this. Not sure why but it was not collapsing when I tested it the other day. Might be that the hose was not hooked up the vacuum head. Will see tonight.

I'm sure it affects the cyclone somewhat, after 2 months my bottom bag on the delta collector has about 4 inches in it mostly MDF, without spending alot of money on a collection system, mine works fine for me.

yes as soon as any restriction is placed in the air path the trashcan will start to collapse, I wonder what size a metal trashcan is? and if it can be tight enough to be placed on the inside of the plastic one with very little space between the cans.

Joe

Buzz9075
05-03-2007, 10:55 AM
Thanks, for the info.. I will do vacuum tests before I fire up the cutting... Any more dust in the garage from this machine= no machine for me :(

Buzz9075
05-04-2007, 08:58 AM
I did some testing. With the vacuum head all the way down causing high vacuum on my machine table (without moving the machine around). I checked in on the pail. It was not collapsing at all, even if I help it allong by pushing in on the sides. Wild as it use to buckle alot. The only difference left is on the old machine I ran 4" hose and split it into 2 - 2.5" hose on my head. This time I am running 4" straight through to the head and I ensure that all paths have atleast the same area as a 4" Diameter hose.

Will continue to monitor before I make any changes.

IMO - Something jst does not feel right... but I am getting plenty of suction at the machine.... even picks up dust out side the skirted area (through the slits in the skirt).

joecnc2006
05-04-2007, 09:21 AM
Are you cutting with the machine now?

Take some pictures and Video and post here :)

Curious to how it is working for you now.

Joe

Buzz9075
05-04-2007, 09:27 AM
I have been cutting small pieces here and there for the machine... nothing big. Most of them I think I posted pictures. Biggest so far was the new carrage for the Z axis.

I am about to machine the base plate... all is ready to go just need the time... then going to test the alignment and verify that everything is perfectly square... then it is of to the races.

So far the machine is working very well.

Once I have all working I will try and post a video here, my camera does video only problem is that the files are huge and as such I don't want them on my web site (ISP will crap on me if everyone downloads them). Once I have one I will figure out how to post it for everyone.

GTGene
05-04-2007, 01:15 PM
Buzz, I have been enjoying your build log. Will really be a big help when my kit gets here(soon I hope).. As to the video the best thing to do with is to upload to youtube or google video. This way it is not on your ISPs server. Also you will most like want to edit them down a little... post like 3-5 minutes at the most.

Buzz9075
05-04-2007, 02:01 PM
Excellent, glad to hear it will be helpful. Keep in mind while reading the page, that I have only entered what I have experienced and it is not always necessarily the right/best thing to do. I figured I would use youtube if something got in my way... only problem is the link expires after a while.

P.Passuello
05-05-2007, 07:21 AM
Hi Buzz,

I am very impressed buy your new build. Congratulations.
I am curious about the steppers you are using on this build. Are they still the xylotex 269oz from you previous machine or have you upgraded to something else? You also mentioned building some dampers, I was wondering if you did build them and did they work?

Cheers
Peter

Buzz9075
05-05-2007, 07:25 AM
I am still using the same motors from the last machine. So far I have not had any issues with the motors at spees of <=80IPM Some axis I have even seen it run at full out without issues which I think is just over 100IPM.

I was going to build the dampeners with this machine but at this point I don't have a need for them.

Buzz9075
05-05-2007, 09:41 AM
I will post pictures and more details tomorrow... Today I was working on final calibartion by doing it with cuts. Joe was right... calibrate with cuts. I was originaly hoping to calibrate using the pencil and get it close enough to finish of. Based on the equipment I used forget the pencil method... X Y 90Degree cuts were significantly out of square.

So far I have the X and Y sqaure, the gantry level to the sacraficial plate... all that is left is the angle of the cutter. Hopefully I will get some more time tomorrow night to complete

joecnc2006
05-05-2007, 02:36 PM
I am still using the same motors from the last machine. So far I have not had any issues with the motors at spees of <=80IPM Some axis I have even seen it run at full out without issues which I think is just over 100IPM.

I was going to build the dampeners with this machine but at this point I don't have a need for them.



LOL, I am still using my HobbyCNC 200oz kit and after 1.5 yr still going strong, and now i have it with the 1/2-8 2 start leadscrews and rapids over 200ipm, but i have cut at 100 and 120ipm...

Buzz, the machine is not to dificult to get it square, you are on the right track now. :)

Look forward to those video's.. :)

Joe

thkoutsidthebox
05-06-2007, 05:00 PM
LOL, I am still using my HobbyCNC 200oz kit and after 1.5 yr still going strong, and now i have it with the 1/2-8 2 start leadscrews and rapids over 200ipm, but i have cut at 100 and 120ipm...
Joe

Woohoo....Joe, I have 200 oz/in kit and 1/2-8 2start screws...but haven't finished building yet....fingers crossed! :)

Buzz9075
05-09-2007, 08:04 AM
Summer is pulling in so I have not had much time to work on the machine lately.
got back to it last night, think I got it calibarted. Only one last thing stumping me. I calculated the backlash and proper step numbers using a dial indicator. I found the following numbers:
Axis, Steps, Vel, Acc, Step Pulse, Dir Pulse, Backlash
X 16100, 79.98, 4, 1, 0, .01
Y 15920, 79.98, 4, 1, 0, .008
Z 16080, 79.98, 4, 1, 0, .005

Only problem is when I enable backlash the motors stall and skip lots of steps when machining a part whenever I would expect the backlash to kick in. Works perfectly without backlash in place (the machine purrs real nice). I tried setting the backlash % of max speed to 5, 20 and 100 (wanted to try no % but it would not allow me to). With backlash enabled the machine part path is NO WHERE near the required path, rather pathetic actually. Anyone know what I am doing wrong or got a suggestions?

joecnc2006
05-09-2007, 08:51 AM
Summer is pulling in so I have not had much time to work on the machine lately.
got back to it last night, think I got it calibarted. Only one last thing stumping me. I calculated the backlash and proper step numbers using a dial indicator. I found the following numbers:
Axis, Steps, Vel, Acc, Step Pulse, Dir Pulse, Backlash
X 16100, 79.98, 4, 1, 0, .01
Y 15920, 79.98, 4, 1, 0, .008
Z 16080, 79.98, 4, 1, 0, .005

Only problem is when I enable backlash the motors stall and skip lots of steps when machining a part whenever I would expect the backlash to kick in. Works perfectly without backlash in place (the machine purrs real nice). I tried setting the backlash % of max speed to 5, 20 and 100 (wanted to try no % but it would not allow me to). With backlash enabled the machine part path is NO WHERE near the required path, rather pathetic actually. Anyone know what I am doing wrong or got a suggestions?

I have never had to/ or done the backlash on the machine, in all my cutting the machine is cutting well that i just never worried about it. i just set it up for the 16,000, 80-100, 15.

Joe

Buzz9075
05-09-2007, 11:31 PM
I did some more work on calibarting tonight. Man I feel lost. I did cutting tests with pocketing 1" squares and cutting the outside of 1" squares and circles. All were done at 1/4" deep with a 1/4" cuter finishing paths of .02 were always done. I always found a big difference of about .020 or more between the size of the squares from pocketing to contoured. Countored usually turned out closer in size.

I did the tests with backlash on and off, with calibration set back to 16000 with small changes but no big ones.

So I finally did some long distance tests which I put a long ruller in place and foudn that that the movements where not always concise. Doing 1" moves it would move more or less in various positions of the table, the Y axis was most predomenet, starting at 0:
0 =0
1 = 1 1/32
2 = 2 1/32
5 = 5 1/16
10 = 10 3/32
rather linier till about 20" then it goes back down.
but then I get 25=25

This is the type of stuff I had with the last machine, I never did figure it out and had to adjust parts to be the exact size required... being out by .02" was a lot of work that I don't want to experience again.

Any one got any suggestions. First take is the lead screws are not llinear or acurate.

John

joecnc2006
05-10-2007, 12:26 AM
Can you list all your settings and hardware? i.e. controllor board used, micro stepping. leadscrew, and power supply, computer etc.

I use the above and all mine cut very well on the mark.

I assume you are

1/2-8 two start, dumpster antibacklash, microstepping at 1/8, and accel is it still 4 (mine is 15)?

Buzz9075
05-10-2007, 05:58 AM
I have the xylotex 4 axis from the factory setup with the 269Ozin motors, everything is included with this kit just plug on the motors and go. Lead screw is a 1/2-10, backlash is what you documented in your build but I never really understood how it works, mircosteps are set at 1/8, accerlation was 4 and 14 for tests last night.

joecnc2006
05-10-2007, 08:54 AM
I have the xylotex 4 axis from the factory setup with the 269Ozin motors, everything is included with this kit just plug on the motors and go. Lead screw is a 1/2-10, backlash is what you documented in your build but I never really understood how it works, mircosteps are set at 1/8, accerlation was 4 and 14 for tests last night.

I do not think it is hardware related as far as the machine goes.

Start looking at the pulses from your computer, run the Mach test and make sure you have a flat line, and also no inteferance with motors from other electronics, an irregular cutting length is not normal, also check the anti-backlash nuts make sure there is no play in them.

Joe

Buzz9075
05-10-2007, 09:08 AM
I think the same thing,

When you say check the pulses from the computer.... how do I do this?

Is this what you consider flat line?

joecnc2006
05-10-2007, 09:35 AM
yea line looks good, well if you had the same thing on other machine, then what is the common denominator?

Buzz9075
05-10-2007, 10:03 AM
Common = Xylotex system, mach 3 V2, computer,

On the last machine I attributed the problem to a machine with cheap lead screws.

So how do I prove if the Xylotex system is messing up?

joecnc2006
05-10-2007, 11:08 AM
The first thing i would do is go ahead and set quantum up (Mach4), and see how the machine runs, this will ensure you have the latest dll's and everything for the program. I have been running Quantum for 3 months now, and it works very well. One advantage of Quantum is ramping for the machine, meaning it does not allow the machine to make sudden stops and reverse directions, it has a smoother transition.

Joe

bp092
05-10-2007, 05:32 PM
Joe, I've seen ramping done at work, thought it was always setup on the programming sides of things, didn't know mach had the ability to do that.

Buzz9075
05-11-2007, 06:51 AM
Still got some more testing to do this morning... in playing with Mach4 I found it goes nuts repeatedly turning on and off my router and dust collect (m03/m05) when the emergency stop, limit switch or you press esc to stop movements. My tests below are with Mach4

I changed my step size to 1/4 and 1/2 last night and found that the machine was moving in linear units now. The setting now is 4030 for all motor axis. Going to do a few tests on the motors this morning to ensure that I am getting exactly 10 turns per inch with 4000 steps... then it would lead me to believe my problem is with the lead screw not being exactly 10TPI.

I am thinking about getting the dumpster backlash stuff for the machine.... so this brings me to do I just get the bashlash for the 1/2-10TPI or do I get the 1/2-8(2 start) setup. So the big questions on this:

Are there any other advantages to the 1/2-8 (2 start threads) than they move faster.

Buzz9075
05-11-2007, 07:47 AM
Just finished a quick test to confirm that 8000 steps is actually coming out as 10 full revolutions and 8030 gave 10+ revolutions.

One thing I did find out that was really cool. If you set the motor to 8030 steps/rev and you move a distance then you set it to 8000 steps/rev Mach4 (not sure if mach 3 does it as well) it will calculate the steps already take and send only the number of steps required to get you to the new location taking into account the 8030 steps were already taken and they should have been 8000.... so really reset the location back to where it should be.

So that being said it sure appears that my lead screw is really 10.0375TPI.

So the following issues with the lead screws that I got at a lower cost... guess you get what you pay for:
Screws were warped... got most of them out but there is still small bend.
TPI is not accurate
Still have a few zones that are not moving the caragge exactly correct but not off really enough to be concerned about.
Movements measured with a dial indicator are not showing me movements as clean as I would like to see. .001 movements are sometimes short or longer. Movements of .01 are very close but always of by a little, movements of .1 are very close but again always off by just a little. It is almost like every movement comes very close to what you requested but never stops exactly where you requested, which does compound after a bit.

Another question, how are McMaster packaging the lead screws so they are not bent or damaged during shipping?

thkoutsidthebox
05-11-2007, 10:10 AM
Another question, how are McMaster packaging the lead screws so they are not bent or damaged during shipping?

I got my leadscrews from the States from Roton in a big heavy cardboard tube, plugged with wood at each end and packed with paper. I'd have difficulty damaging the tube with a hammer, it's fairly solid. Screws crossed the Atlantic in good condition, no warping that I can see. :)

Buzz9075
05-11-2007, 10:15 AM
When you say Roton are you refering to a company or a location? The ones called for by Joe and the rest are coming from the company McMaster and are shipped out of Ohio. I tried to find two starts locally with no luck (did not try the same store I got the crappy ones from :))

thkoutsidthebox
05-11-2007, 10:39 AM
It's a company, McMaster won't ship to me because I'm outside of the USA, maybe they ship to Canada...anyway, I bought from Roton instead...Good service, arrived fairly quickly, shipped with UPS which is good because DHL are a big PITA and I try to avoid them!

Here are the one's I bought as per ger's recommendation:

http://www.roton.com/Mating_Components.aspx?family=7060404

erebus
05-11-2007, 10:41 AM
The 1/2 - 8 2 Start screws I recieved from Mcmaster came in a Hvy Cardboard tube, paper packed, with wood/aluminum end plugs.

sblack
05-11-2007, 12:44 PM
Buzz, where did you get the lovejoys in Ottawa? Is that where you live? I am in Montreal but grew up in Manotick.

Buzz9075
05-11-2007, 12:47 PM
I got the love joys at princess auto

www.princessauto.com

Yup I live in Kanata, about 15 minutes from Manotic. Actually spend a lot of time on the river in Manotic wakeboarding (3 to 4 nights a week).

P.Passuello
05-12-2007, 01:15 AM
Hi Buzz

I don't know if you have got to the bottom of your accuracy issue yet but have you considered trying Turbocnc for a test? You can boot and run the whole thing from a floppy disk and you can eliminate Windows as the cause of your problem. There is even an INI config file for the Xylotex driver. It wouldn't take long to setup for a test. I find it hard to believe that the ACME threaded rod could be so inaccurate (but I live to learn). I would expect the inaccuracy to be linear. If your 1/32 out after 1 inch I would expect 5/16 by 10 inches. If it is the rod you may be able to enter a new average TPI across it length to compensate. This would probably bring your accuracy into spec.

I currently use Turbocnc for my first machine and using a CF card as my harddrive I have my operating software, Turbocnc and part file on it. All I have to do is put the CF card into my desktop machine and put my Gcode file onto it. Take it out to the garage and insert it into my PC. From turning on the PC to Turbocnc up and running takes 30 seconds. Let the cutting begin :D

Buzz9075
05-12-2007, 07:38 PM
Thanks for the suggestion. At this point I think I have it being the lead screwws. SO many tests point to it being in accurate. Yes I have really found it to belinear... so linear that a motor setting of 4030 is used for all axis now.

Buzz9075
05-13-2007, 07:22 AM
With the condition of the rods I orginal got I was already ready to replace them. I held of and held of getting new the ones... well I think in my best interests it is time to put in proper ones. I had order new screws from McMaster and parts from CndDumpster but McMaster cancelled my order as they no longer ship to Canada (Not impressed as they do not indicate this you get a return phone call - even when calling the order in).

I can tell you this CncDumpster is extremely helpfull and cooperative with me being in the predicament I just found my self in with McMaaster late Friday. Thanks Tim

ger21
05-13-2007, 07:26 AM
Have you tried getting the screws from MSC? There website is down right now, but it's www.mscdirect.com Not sure if they'll ship to Canada either, but I think they're a little cheaper than Mcmaster Carr too.

Buzz9075
05-13-2007, 07:43 AM
Tim (CNCDumpster) has pointed me to them as well. He has indicated they should work with these screws and if they don't he will make new ones if I ship him a piece of the thread.

Might be going there, but first I want to allow McMaster to return my call of late Friday. Suspect I will have it worked out Monday.

just_lkn
05-13-2007, 07:49 AM
McMaster cancelled my order as they no longer ship to Canada (Not impressed as they do not indicate this you get a return phone call - even when calling the order in).



Perhaps McMaster will ship only to a business address. We (my place of employment) order from them all the time.

Buzz9075
05-13-2007, 07:52 AM
You have to ship to a business. I have a business. They say they are only shipping internationaly to companies that have a long standing relationship with them and are not taking any new clients outside USA. Personally I don't understand you would figure a company would take all the business they can get.

ccsparky
05-13-2007, 09:16 AM
Tim (CNCDumpster) has pointed me to them as well. He has indicated they should work with these screws and if they don't he will make new ones if I ship him a piece of the thread.

Might be going there, but first I want to allow McMaster to return my call of late Friday. Suspect I will have it worked out Monday.

Hello Buzz,

Kris at e-tap.com is making me a 1/2-8 two start tap. One of the things that I ran across was thread tolerance (fit). It was one of the specs listed on the quote. I started doing some checking and found that McMaster Carr and MSC list two different thread tolerances as follows:
McMaster: 2C
MSC: 2G

This is what McMaster has on their site:
Thread Fit— General purpose Acme threaded products have a Class 2G thread fit, which is looser than that of our precision Acme threaded products (Class 2C thread fit).

So now I wondering if Tim's statement above about maybe not fitting relates to the thread tolerance???? :confused:
Did he state why they might not fit? I ask because I'm not a thread guru and am no wondering if specific nuts need to be purchased.

Bob

ger21
05-13-2007, 09:27 AM
The MSC screws are a 2C.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=3852&PMT4NO=22557614&PMT4TP=*ITPD&PMITEM=01205996&PMCTLG=00

ccsparky
05-13-2007, 10:06 AM
The MSC screws are a 2C.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNPDFF?PMPAGE=3852&PMT4NO=22557614&PMT4TP=*ITPD&PMITEM=01205996&PMCTLG=00

Thanks!

Now I'm really confused! While gathering info to get the tap done I asked the folks at MSC if they could provide specs. The specs they provided stated 2G. It was faxed to me so maybe I just read it wrong. I'll give them a call.
Anyway thanks again. Good to know that I can get the rod from them also and it will work with the tap!!! :)

Bob

ger21
05-13-2007, 10:14 AM
I just went out in the garage and screwed a dumpster nut onto some 1/2-8 2 start from MSC. It's snug, but it went on easily. It's the Keystone screws at MSC. I bought it a few years ago, but just got the dumpster nuts recently.

Buzz9075
05-13-2007, 10:31 AM
Here are Tim's exact words:

Any 1/2-8, 2 start screw "should" work fine with these, I say "should" because I've come to find that different companies may hold different specs for their screws.

joecnc2006
05-13-2007, 10:35 AM
key stone is the brand that i got from Fasenal, The dumpster nuts are snug but still works good after running the length of the screw a couple of times with a drill attached. But the bearings were the ones that forced me to slightly turn down the ends where they would sit. I made a home jig with a drill as shown in the mod section.

Joe

ccsparky
05-13-2007, 10:47 AM
Thanks guys!

I was starting to get a little worried that I was going to end up with a custom made tap paper weight. Looks like I'm ok by the info you guys are providing! :)

Bob

ger21
05-13-2007, 11:37 AM
Why'd you buy a tap instead of the dumpster nuts? It probably cost more I'd think.

ccsparky
05-13-2007, 12:46 PM
Why'd you buy a tap instead of the dumpster nuts? It probably cost more I'd think.

I purchased some of the dumpster nuts and am very happy with them!
As mentioned before I'm going to be upgrading to the 1/2-8 two start rod and will probably purchase more of the dumpster nuts.

I've had a few ideas with HDPE where the tap will come in handy. It will be nice when trying different things to have it around when you don't have enought dumpster nuts handy! :)

Your are right, it's not cheap, mostly I guess for the DIY fun of it!

Bob

thkoutsidthebox
05-13-2007, 03:57 PM
I was going to order stuff from MSC before. You can't order online from outside the USA, but they do accept Intl orders, you have to e-mail or phone them. Can I ask why you don't want to buy from Roton?

Buzz9075
05-13-2007, 08:14 PM
Never said I don't want to buy from Roton... what I was doing was matching up the needs/specs of DumpsterCNC... which called for McMaster.

ccsparky
05-13-2007, 11:29 PM
Hello Buzz,

All the talk about the acme rod and dumpster items on your site has been a big help!

If you want the rods from McMaster and they won't ship to you, I'd be willing to order them and ship them your way. I'll just need info on what it takes to ship to Canada.

Bob

thkoutsidthebox
05-14-2007, 05:58 AM
Never said I don't want to buy from Roton... what I was doing was matching up the needs/specs of DumpsterCNC... which called for McMaster.

Oh ok, thanks. :) I was just curious in case I missed something about the quality of the screws on the Roton site and I had made a bad purchase. :cheers:

Buzz9075
05-14-2007, 10:08 AM
Update on McMaster - PITA. No way they will ship to Canada unless you are already established... even though they will still take new orders and only inform you after the fact.... they might change that after all my complaining this morning.

I have a few pointers to Candian outlets that are supposed to carry their parts that I am reviewing now. One is actually in Ottawa. Will post when I am done.

But for Canadians... steer clear of McMaster-Carr.

Buzz9075
05-14-2007, 10:51 AM
Gerry, when you say:

It's snug, but it went on easily

The but in the sentance is this a good but?

Glidergider
05-14-2007, 11:07 AM
Buzz,
I've read all the posts from the one below, to present. I know you are thinking the lead screws are the problem, and they might be. But I didn't read any mention where you actually measured your leadscrews TPI independent of the CNC machine.

I suggest that you put a caliper on the 10 threads, which of course they should measure 1 inch. 30 threads should be 3 inches.
Dave



I did some more work on calibarting tonight. Man I feel lost.
......
So I finally did some long distance tests which I put a long ruller in place and foudn that that the movements where not always concise. Doing 1" moves it would move more or less in various positions of the table, the Y axis was most predomenet, starting at 0:
0 =0
1 = 1 1/32
2 = 2 1/32
5 = 5 1/16
10 = 10 3/32
rather linier till about 20" then it goes back down.
but then I get 25=25
...

Any one got any suggestions. First take is the lead screws are not llinear or acurate.

John

Buzz9075
05-14-2007, 11:14 AM
I tried to take an accurate measurement of the lead screw. I never really got an accurante answer with my vernier as it is was very hard to accurately line up. But I did figure out that it was alway a little less than the required lenght. I then proved the lengths were of several ways:
1 - checked my motors turned 10 revs when requesting an inch
2 - checked the distance the head moved on 10 revs, neve an inch on any axis.
3 - found a value that worked perfectly on each axis.

That being said using a value of 4030 for each axis get the device to move the specified distance only it is never right on the amount I ask it to move. With movements all in the same direction as for .001 steps... I would see .. 0011, .0012, .0009, .0008 or ask for .010 and get .0101, .0102, .0099, .0098. By doing the movements all in the same direction I take out the backlash as part of the question....

So now are the treads dirty. Check them all I found was oil.

fade2black
05-14-2007, 04:17 PM
I might be way off in my thinking, but is a ten thousandth of an inch going to matter on this machine? That seems way outside the expected accuracy of it.

ger21
05-14-2007, 05:59 PM
Gerry, when you say:

It's snug, but it went on easily

The but in the sentance is this a good but?

I think so. It was the first time I had it on the screw, and there wasn't any lubrication, but it did turn fairly easily. Also, Joe apparently has the same screws I do and doesn't have a problem, so they should be good.

Buzz9075
05-14-2007, 10:45 PM
Actually accuracy goes back to post 248 (an others around it) where I was finding I was out by .020.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=295673&postcount=248

Glidergider
05-15-2007, 07:36 AM
Buzz,
On a 10 tpi screw and 1.8* motor, your driven resolution is only .0005 inches. If you half step, then you get 0.00025 inches. Even if you quarter step, you still can't achieve the values in your post below. These errors are on top of all the mechanical issues.

I must be missing something, but I'd love to have your machine.
Dave



That being said using a value of 4030 for each axis get the device to move the specified distance only it is never right on the amount I ask it to move. With movements all in the same direction as for .001 steps... I would see .. 0011, .0012, .0009, .0008 or ask for .010 and get .0101, .0102, .0099, .0098. By doing the movements all in the same direction I take out the backlash as part of the question....

So now are the treads dirty. Check them all I found was oil.

Buzz9075
05-15-2007, 09:39 AM
I have uploaded more pictures to the web page. Some are on the problems I have been seeing on the movements.... but I have a feeling I will make the confustion even worse ( I hope not).

joecnc2006
05-15-2007, 10:21 AM
Just saw the Split bearing housing, I have never had that happen before it must be a defect in it from the manufactor.

Are you planning on changing the leadscrews out? also have you adjusted the Anti-backlash nuts the retest movement measurements?

Joe

Buzz9075
05-15-2007, 10:27 AM
I as well figured it was a defect.

I am trying to change out the lead screws, if I am I am going to the 1/2-8 2 start with the dumpster backlash. A bit of work to get them in to Canada. McMaster won't do it without me taking an indirect route, MSC I am still working on to get a price to ship to Canada. Should know soon what is going on.

I did play a little with the backlash unit got some OK results but not perfect. Figured why continue if I am going to swap out the screws anyway.

thkoutsidthebox
05-15-2007, 10:42 AM
That bearing is a strange crack, must have taken a bit of force to cause that. Even with everything your trying to get sorted, I have to say that your machine looks really great. :)

Buzz9075
05-15-2007, 10:54 AM
Thanks thinker :). I am very happy with the machine, just wish I had more time now to play with it ... but with Summer pulling in my time is so limited..... Between Sens hockey games, kids activities, gardening, getting the boat ready for the summer, and all the other stuff that I let go while I was working 100% on building the machine(s). I knew the downtime was coming that is why I pushed so hard to complete it during the winter months.

ger21
05-15-2007, 11:11 AM
A bit of work to get them in to Canada. McMaster won't do it without me taking an indirect route, MSC I am still working on to get a price to ship to Canada.

Try calling Keystone to find a Canadian distributor.
http://www.keystonethreaded.com/

Buzz9075
05-15-2007, 11:26 AM
Wild no Canadian outlets... but they appear to be helping me out... going to give me a shout back soon with some solution. Thanks for the pointer.

joecnc2006
05-15-2007, 03:41 PM
Buzz, call Fastenal, that is where i got mine for the 5.60 LF and paid small shipping, and picked up here locally. It was packaged very well and also tapes to a 1x3 wood board to keep it from bending, i will post a picture when i get home for you, and i can look at the company they got it from.

They have 139 locations in Canada.

http://www.fastenal.com/web/countrySearch.ex?country=view&abbrv=CAN&descr=Canada

Joe