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Haydn
01-18-2007, 03:17 PM
Been having a look around the zone for a while now and decided many moons ago to give it a go. Well, after accumulating gear for a while my machine is nearly finished (thank god I hear her indoors scream!). The frame is all steel, no welds, every joint is steel epoxied, bolted and pinned, takes longer than welding but my frame is within the tolerances of my ball screws (approx 0.01mm/300mm) and isn't stressed at all.
I intend putting up some info on how I built it if anyone is interested. I only have to wire it up, fix a few cover plates on (y axis ballscrew mounts etc). Parts of the gantry and all of the z axis were made in aluminium. The z axis parts and motor mounts were made manually on the machine. I still have to make a mount for the spindle.
I designed the controller for my needs, based on Geckos and a Campbell breakout board. This is all done bar limit switch connections and my external e stop (ie on the router).

If anyone is interested i'll start putting info up and more pics.

Nearly smiling :wave:

jmc
01-18-2007, 03:50 PM
thats a great looking machine....are you sure the decision to bolt the frame together rather than weld was for dimensional tolerences or did it have somthing to do with the effects of sparks on the hardwood floors :)

I know I am intrested in seeing more.
Jim

Konstantin
01-18-2007, 03:59 PM
Congratulations.
It is a very nice looking machine.
I wish to know how you true the frame when assembling it?


Konstantin.

Haydn
01-18-2007, 04:18 PM
thats a great looking machine....are you sure the decision to bolt the frame together rather than weld was for dimensional tolerences or did it have somthing to do with the effects of sparks on the hardwood floors :)

I know I am intrested in seeing more.
Jim

Jim,

You haven't seen my welding! Part of the reason for not welding is that the machine can be dismantled and transported elsewhere if need be. The tappered knock pins would need to be replaced though. (I hope to never move from my workshop!)

Haydn
01-18-2007, 04:27 PM
Congratulations.
It is a very nice looking machine.
I wish to know how you true the frame when assembling it?


Konstantin.

Hi Konstantin,

The bed of the machine was assembled on my bench as square as I could get it using precision squares. Steel box section is never very flat or square. I then transported the bed to an engineer friend who has an 8'x4' surface table. I covered the table with cling film and sprayed this with silicone mold release agent, a bead of steel epoxy was run over the whole of the bed side of the steel and the whole thing was then lowered carefully onto the surface table. When everything had set, I lifted it off checked it with the help of my engineer friend and presto, I had a surface flat to the tolerance of the surface table. The legs were then fitted and everything levelled with an engineers level (I put concrete pillars under the floor where the legs sit) and a long grade a straight edge to check for any twists.

just_lkn
01-18-2007, 04:40 PM
I intend putting up some info on how I built it if anyone is interested.
If anyone is interested i'll start putting info up and more pics.

Nearly smiling :wave:

You better get started.... Nice unit

Oldmanandhistoy
01-18-2007, 05:22 PM
Hi Haydn,

Thanks for the PM :) I also would like as much detail as possible on the construction of your frame.
Very nice looking work btw.

Regards,

John

Haydn
01-18-2007, 07:24 PM
Ok,
I will dig out the pics and take any more i may need and post some more info tomorrow.

DayneInfo
01-18-2007, 11:49 PM
I deffinately want more information on this build. Really nice looking machine.

Dwayne

aspenelm
01-19-2007, 01:05 AM
Nice machine. Looks like your router had an accident on the table surface. Just kidding. Please post info about your steel/epoxy joints. Did you use straight epoxy or mix with a filler?

WayneHill
01-19-2007, 01:24 AM
Nice looking router there. Turn the camera around and let us look at the rest of your shop. The floors look great!

tajord
01-19-2007, 02:05 AM
I'm now building my first cnc, it's the "Jgro", wasn't yet ready for a steel frame router but had it in mind for a final build, your build my friend is really a nice one and looks like it's gonna be my final build, thanks for the inspiration.

Jordan

thkoutsidthebox
01-19-2007, 02:52 AM
Ok, so its becoming old at this point, but I'll say it again anyway! :D Very nice build, looks really great. :) Any more pics of during the build and/or work youve done with it?
Thanks.

Haydn
01-19-2007, 03:48 PM
Ok guys thanks for the comments.
I'll start with the basic structure. The bed is built from 80x40x4mm steel section, the legs and braces are 50x50x4mm. I started by cutting the two long lengths of bed steel the same length, followed by the cross members. Some 70x6mm equal angle was chopped into 50mm lengths to use as angle brackets and drilled for the M8 cap screws. The two long lengths were clamped together and marked out for positioning the braces. The two outer braces were held with sash cramps between the two x axis lengths with only enough pressure to lightly hold the braces, not enough to cause distortion/stress. Steel epoxy was mixed and each angle bracket was coated with mold release agent, a generous coating of epoxy was then applied and the angle brackets pushed into the corner joints and lightly clamped ensuring epoxy squeeze out all around. After 20mins or so the clamps holding the brackets were tightened so I could drill and tap the beams and braces. The rest of the braces were then done the same way. The legs were cut to length and some 50x50x75mm solid steel was machined down to fit inside the bottom of the legs, tapped and drilled to take the feet. The legs were then fitted to the bed, again using epoxy to ensure a precise fit, drilled and tapped. If your wondering why use epoxy well, if you look at steel section it isn't square and not very flat, all faces are usually concave, if these faces were bolted together you would eventually end up with a frame with quite a lot of stress built into it. I don't have a mill so couldn't machine the sections, even if i had I think i'd have to machine all the faces to keep the section stable (or at least oppsite faces). I didn't want to pay an engineer to do this either. Epoxy is reasonably priced depending on what you use and easy to work with.

Once the bed was checked for reasonable squareness the angle brackets were drilled and reamed for the dowel pins. Ensuring no movement in the joint and, offering the chance to dismantle and reassemble with a reasonable chance of accuracy!

All steel joints were done following this method. As I progressed with the joints it became easier to drill and tap before applying the epoxy, then epoxy coat the joint and lightly bolt straight away instead of clamping (the bolts were sprayed with mold release), the squeeze out would fill around the bolt hole making an even more rigid joint.

The steel was really cheap!! All the steel cost about £60, should have been about three times the price but the merchant that I buy from turns over a lot of stock and offcuts of full lengths were negotiated for beer money :cheers:

If I did it again I would use 5 or 6mm taper pins as the reamer for the 4mm pins didn't last long!

More later, time for food and a few beers!

Mike F
01-19-2007, 04:06 PM
Haydn,

May I ask how many moons ago you started? My build has been on the go for over two years now and it's still not complete :(

Your machine looks excellent and I like the idea of using it manually to cut the Z axis parts, very good. Did this mean actually turning the screws by hand or did you have enough wiring done to jog the X and Y axis?

The rest of us Brits are going to have to work hard to keep up the standard :)

Mike

Haydn
01-19-2007, 04:49 PM
Hi Mike,

This has been ongoing for a while now, I started buying parts about 18mnths ago, a pair of thk rails for the x axis - ebay, then followed the x axis screw. I didnt have a y axis so had to wait to start bolting things together, waited so long I bought some new from www.marchantdice.com. About 12/13mnths ago I finally started bolting. Took ages, two kids to look after in the morning, work afternoon & evenings and an hour here, couple of hours there on the machine. Finally it's nearly done, the plus side was plenty of time to go over the design in my head and finding ways to avoid maching and beyond me engineering.

The first part I needed to machine was the plate to mount to the Y axis rails.
I put four dobs of steel epoxy in the corners of the plate and turned this down onto the bed of the machine (covered with cling film), leaving me with four flat pads to mount the carriages on. A temporary bracket was bolted on to mount the router. I could then surface the aluminium for the actual plate, I had no ballscrew fitted any axis so it was truly manual!! If I wanted to travel along x I would clamp chocks either side of the temp y plate to stop it moving. Then manually feed along x, taking care to make very shallow cuts and no climb milling! This was slow to do but, free. I had the plate (17"x8" checked on a surface table and the engineer said he couldn't mill it any flatter which was nice to hear, big confidence boost! Once I had the screws on, I turned them with a temporary handle, much easier.

Haydn
01-19-2007, 05:28 PM
Found a picture of the initially assembled frame. From here the legs were removed so I could get my flat surface for the bed to sit on. The knock pins haven't been fitted but this was done on the beams before the legs were removed. The table structure was rock solid.

Haydn
01-20-2007, 07:17 AM
Here you can see the master rail and how I got this straight. The beams for the rails were again made flat by applying a bead of epoxy steel and laying them on the surface table. For the master rail beam a reference edge was cast, again in epoxy. This was done by covering the straight edge in cling film and spraying with mold release (the cling tends to stick to the epoxy otherwise and tears when you peel it off), the edge was clamped to the beam and an epoxy bead was scraped along the edge, a bit like putty round a window. This gave a really good reference edge that the master side of the rail was pushed up against, drilled, tapped and bolted.

You can see the steel epoxy coating on the bed side of the table, this was difficult to do because of the large area to be covered, I ended up doing it twice, the second time I chose a cold morning which gave me considerably more time to work as the curing time was increased dramatically.

Haydn
01-21-2007, 05:52 AM
Once the bed had been epoxied and the master rail mounted it was time to mount the rail beams. A set screw was fitted in the bottom of the bed in each corner and the straight edge was clamped (across the y axis)butted up to the set screws. A dial indicator was used to set the straight edge the same height from the bed (the set screws were used for fine adjustment). When these were all the same the position of the top of the x beams were set. A second set of adjusting set screws was screwed through the legs to adjust the tilt and seperation of the x beams. Devcon 16hr epoxy was used for these joints to give plenty of time for fine adjustment. You need to remember that you can only tighten the beam mounting bolts, if you had to loosen them you would have voids in the epoxy and not a good joint. You can see the master rail epoxy casting clearly in the picture. The set screw to adjust lateral movement goes through the leg and pushes against the side of the x beam. The beams are 1600mm long and 100x50x6mm section. You can see the cling film in the joint, this was just burnt off with a blow torch as the beam was spot on and I didn't want to take it off. The same was done for the secondary beam but this one was going to need to be removed as I had to line up the second rail, clamp it drill and tap it for the rail.

Any questions i'll do my best to answer!

stone1925
01-21-2007, 07:58 AM
Hello Hayden
I am in the UK (East Yorkshire) and looking for advice and help. Your machine looks the 'business'....
I have only just started to build a cnc router so could do with some advice.

What software are you going to use to make this machine run and could you tell me where I go in the UK for plug and play electrics ( I have looked at the Marchant Dice options and Motion Control Products).

I have noticed that since I decided to bulid a cnc I am spending a lot of time on the computer doing research.
So far I have managed to keep my latest project quiet so no problems from the household just yet....but they know me well.

Haydn
01-21-2007, 09:43 AM
Hi Stone,

I'm going to use Mach 3 for control of the machine. As far as plug and pray goes I would have suggested talling to Kevin at Marchant Dice-he's a sound bloke and knows his products. The Motion Control site has some interesting stuff but I don't know of anyone who uses their motors etc. Initially I was going to use Astrosyn drivers, http://www.astrosyn.com/drives.html - the P808 (7.7A at 90Vdc) was the one that I was interested in, cheaper than a Gecko but with the pound dollar situation I would seriously consider buying from the states. Another possible is http://www.rhonmac-cnc.co.uk/ I got my Gecko's from him, pure luck I rang about something else, he asked what I was going to use for drivers and he just happened to have 4 Geckos unused from a cancelled project - I got them for £180 the lot!

What are you wanting to drive?

Mr.Chips
01-21-2007, 12:36 PM
Once the bed had been epoxied and the master rail mounted it was time to mount the rail beams.

Any questions i'll do my best to answer!

The rails are bolted through a bed of Epoxy/Steel, that is the thickness of the steel wires, that limit the thicknes?
Do you think the Epoxy/Steel layer will fully support the weight and movement of the gantry without compressing? Do you have any data about this material as to compression?

It sounds like a good way to arrive at a flat reference plane, but I'm concerned about the solidness of the Epoxy/Steel layer.

Thanks for the detailed alignment procedure, this is lacking in many machines and you have really taken a true engineering approach to your project.

I hope to see some alignment data when you are finished.

Hager

Haydn
01-21-2007, 04:06 PM
Hi Hager,

Thanks for the questions. The epoxy steel layer thickness is not guided by the thickness of wire. In my opinion this would be very difficult to do, I mearly took a cast if you like of the surface table and kept the epoxy layer as thin as possible. If I had used wires to limit thickness the wire would have distorted under the weight of the beam. If you imagine a concave face on a steel section, i'd say the epoxy is less than 1mm thick at its deepest point. I dug out the tech spec of the epoxy so here goes,

Adhesive tensile shear 2800psi
Compressive strength 8260psi
Flexural strength 5600psi

Quite impressive figures when you consider a concrete floor would have a compressive strength of about 3000psi!

Mr.Chips
01-21-2007, 10:19 PM
Hi Hager,

Thanks for the questions. The epoxy steel layer thickness is not guided by the thickness of wire. In my opinion this would be very difficult to do, I mearly took a cast if you like of the surface table and kept the epoxy layer as thin as possible. If I had used wires to limit thickness the wire would have distorted under the weight of the beam. If you imagine a concave face on a steel section, i'd say the epoxy is less than 1mm thick at its deepest point. I dug out the tech spec of the epoxy so here goes,

Adhesive tensile shear 2800psi
Compressive strength 8260psi
Flexural strength 5600psi

Quite impressive figures when you consider a concrete floor would have a compressive strength of about 3000psi!

That is pretty heavy duty.

I was confusing your thread with another I had red where they used wires to level the top surface. Reading too much and they are all running together.
I understand now. But one needs a surface plate. That may go not easy for some. Sounds like a good practice though. I considering 80-20 for my next build and will have to level them some way. Will remember this method.
Hager.

Haydn
01-22-2007, 03:43 AM
If you use epoxy with 80/20 aluminium then be sure to get an epoxy that binds well to aluminium. I used Devon plastic steel putty, which does bind to aluminium but not as well as it does to steel, could just be that the external coating of the aluminium needs to be removed.

Haydn

blighty
01-22-2007, 05:03 AM
good looking machine, took you long enough to build it. lol

my mate still hasn't got the bearing for his mill so that's getting on for best part of 2 years and it's still has some other stuff that's needs doing to it.

Haydn
01-22-2007, 05:44 AM
Cheers for that Tel.

I should have remembered to polish the rails you sold me way too cheap before I took a pic!!

:cheers:

Edit: Shouldn't you be at work??

Haydn
01-28-2007, 03:35 PM
With the master rail mounted it was time start making the gantry, initially the beam that the ballnut housing and carriages would be mounted on. Originally I planned building the whole gantry in aluminium to reduce weight, but have checked out some masses of steel and ali section I opted for some parts in steel and some in aluminium. The carriage beam was made from two lengths of 25x50x3mm steel. These were joined with three 250x75x10mm steel plates. One at each end which the x rail carriages would be fixed to and a central plate which would accomodate the ballnut housing. The plates and beams were all bolted, again with steel epoxy in the joints. Once done it was back to the engineers surface table where each of the three plates were epoxied to form a reference plane for the carriages and ballnut housing. The plates were drilled for the carriage cap screws and the master rail side lightly bolted, the secondary rail was not permanently fixed at this time. The plan was to use the master rail to line up the secondary rail. A carriage was bolted to the beam on the secondary side and the whole thing moved up and down the x axis. With the secondary rail hardly bolted you could see the rail move into aligned position as the gantry travelled. Each cap screw on the secondary side was tightened slightly as the carriage passed. This was repeated until all the bolts were tight. The second carriage was fixed in place and again manually moving the gantry up and down highlighted any deviation from parallel. This sounds simple, almost too simple though THK do feature this method in their installation guide. It works very well, a check with a dti showed approx 0.02 mm deviation max which was reduced using a set screw as a jack (tapped through a plate clamped to the rail beam on the appropriate sideand tightened). A final check for rail height from the table was made and then the rail beams were fixed with tapered pins.
These THK SSR rails are great, very smooth, very quiet.

Squareness of the gantry beam was just done using a 12" square off the master rail. The gantry itself would be squared using a dti when fitted.

The gantry uprights are 80x80mm ali extrusion, bought from the scrap yard for £5. It was 1m long and turned out to be perfect just cut in half. The ends were squared up and bolted to 25mm thick ali plates which would be bolted to the gantry beam. The Y axis rail mounts are 60x40x4mm steel with rail mounting faces done in steel epoxy as per x axis.

As you can see things were getting messy, little time to work on the machine let alone tidy up!

engext
01-28-2007, 03:54 PM
Great looking machine.Got any other info or pics?.Your workmanship is the nicest i have seen. I would be very interested in how you built your machine and were you got your drawings from. I would like to hear more about it.
Regards
Darren
Melbourne Australia












Been having a look around the zone for a while now and decided many moons ago to give it a go. Well, after accumulating gear for a while my machine is nearly finished (thank god I hear her indoors scream!). The frame is all steel, no welds, every joint is steel epoxied, bolted and pinned, takes longer than welding but my frame is within the tolerances of my ball screws (approx 0.01mm/300mm) and isn't stressed at all.
I intend putting up some info on how I built it if anyone is interested. I only have to wire it up, fix a few cover plates on (y axis ballscrew mounts etc). Parts of the gantry and all of the z axis were made in aluminium. The z axis parts and motor mounts were made manually on the machine. I still have to make a mount for the spindle.
I designed the controller for my needs, based on Geckos and a Campbell breakout board. This is all done bar limit switch connections and my external e stop (ie on the router).

If anyone is interested i'll start putting info up and more pics.

Nearly smiling :wave:

Haydn
01-28-2007, 04:05 PM
Great looking machine.Got any other info or pics?.Your workmanship is the nicest i have seen. I would be very interested in how you built your machine and were you got your drawings from. I would like to hear more about it.
Regards
Darren
Melbourne Australia

Thanks Darren,

The previous posts cover up to the gantry, still more on that to come. If you have any specific questions about how I got this far then fire away, i'll do my best to help. I tried to design my machine for self build as far as possible bearing in mind that I don't have mill for metal machining. I started by drawing the basic frame, the rest was added when I got there. I stopped using cad after the frame as it was taking up too much time and just scribbled things down on paper. Some of the design was based on parts I had bought off ebay etc. I had a budget and didn't want to push the finances too far.

Below you can see the basic drawing I started with.
I'll get some more gantry info up later.

Thanks

engext
01-28-2007, 04:31 PM
Thanks for that. Im finishing of a small router from Rockcliff. Im looking for my next project that has a bit more heart to it. Your machine is the answer. If possible could you supply me with some dimensions etc.The frame is something i can start now. I hope this is okay and i hope you dont mind if could copy your machine.It looks nice and seem very pracitcle.I have just read all your other posts

I hope to hear from you soon
Any cad stuff would be great.
Regards
Darren
Melbourne Australia

Haydn
01-28-2007, 05:21 PM
The frame is 1600mm long and 900mm wide, I can't remember the height. X rails are 1450mm, Y 1000mm, Z I would need to check but was designed to give 125-150mm travel. Clearance under gantry is 150mm. This isn't a huge machine but is plenty big enough for my needs. Though its not finished yet I did do some motor testing on the x axis (the axis of concern due to wieght of gantry!), I managed 7500mm/min without too much trouble at 10000mm/min the motor could not overcome the inertia. I am quite happy with this as I planned to get somewhere in the region of 5000mm/min. When I get to the end of the log I hope to put up a list of materials used, sources of components and final specs of the machine.

Hope this helps.

Haydn
01-28-2007, 07:15 PM
The Y axis beams proved problematic to fit. Initially I had the T nuts that were in the aluminium extrusion and planned that these would hold the beams on the section. A bed of epoxy was cast on the beams where they would mate with the aluminium. I knew the rail mounting sides were flat but I needed each beam to be the same thickness, this epoxy was then machined flat using our wadkin overhead router at work (ensuring not to touch the steel!!) with the tool at the same height for each end of the beam. These were checked for thickness and they were pretty close, a light dress with an oil stone and they were fine. I mounted the lower beam first using the T nuts then the upper beam and checked for flatness across the rail mounting plane, it was out by quite a lot. :confused: Hmmm

After head scratching I realised that the concave faces around the t slots were distorting differently. Every time I tried remounting the error was different. I didnt want to dismantle what had been done and get the face of the aluminium milled so I tried epoxy in the joint to fill up the concave face. I had two 12" lengths of 50x50 steel which I had epoxied one face on the surface table to be flat. I clamped these across the Y beams rail face so I knew the face side was on an even plane. I then made some steel T nuts, 60mm long (hacksaw, angle grinder and file!) so each pair of bolts shared one nut. Clamped some height gauge blocks on the aluminium uprights (to rest the bottom beam on), covered the upright mating surfaces in cling film and lifted the clamped up beam assembly with epoxy spread around the mating surface into place. The t nuts were dropped into place and the whole thing lightly bolted (just enough to get the epoxy to squeeze out of the joint). When it had cured the bolts were torqued up and the rail faces of the beams checked again for an even plane, they were perfect. I could now mount the rails.

Haydn
02-02-2007, 07:38 PM
The rails were mounted again using the dial gauge to set the height from the bed and to check for parallel alignment. At this time the gantry was temporarily fixed to the beam that the x carriages were mounted to with sash cramps. Once the rails were on, I fixed a temporary plate to the Y axis carriages so I could align Y square to X. To do this I mounted the dti base on the plate where the z axis would mount and chocked the carriages so the Y plate couldn't move. The precision straight edge was placed on the bed along the X axis travel and the dti set against its edge. By moving the gantry I could align the straight edge parallel to the travel of X. Once the finger deflection was minimal (0.01-0.02mm over about 600mm or more) I clamped the straight edge down. A precision square was then clamped up to the straight edge and the X axis carriages chocked so the gantry couldn't move. One bolt was used to fix one side of the gantry to the beam with the X carriages on. This way I could use a set screw to 'jack' the gantry into a square postion with X. Again the dti was used, running it up and down the Y axis with the finger running along the edge of the blade of the 12" precision square. Fine adjustments being made with the jacking screw on one side of the gantry (the otherside rotating on the single bolt). Once the dti was giving negligible deflection, the sash clamp on the movable side was tightened back up. Alignment checked again and both sides were bolted to the beam the X carriages mount to, then pinned with tappered knock pins.

Sorry, no pics of this stage.

Next came the manual machining of the z axis components.

Haydn
02-03-2007, 06:50 PM
All components for the Z axis were manually machined on the router. The router was mounted on a temporary Z plate fixed to the Y carriages. Depth of cut was controlled using a fine height adjuster on the router. At this point no ballscrews were fitted so care had to be taken. The Y axis was fixed with blocks clamped either side of the carriages when machining along X axis and X axis clamped with blocks when machining along the Y axis, absolutely no climb routing!! I started with the plate that the router, ballscrew support bearings and rails would be fixed to. Machined out of 20mm aluminium, the first task was to surface them. I bought a couple of throw away end mills and gave it a go with very fine cuts (the plate was fixed to the bed with countersunk screws). I soon wrecked my first cutter when I touched one of the fixing screws as spindle speed of 8000rpm was the slowest I could do. I then tried a solid tungsten carbide wood spiral cutter which gave far better results surfacing than the endmills, I did all the surfacing with this cutter. When I had finished the plate I had it checked by an engineer for flatness, he said he couldn't get it any flatter so I felt quite confident.

The front plate that the router and z motor would sit on was finished at 16"x8"x3/4". By fitting the z motor and ballscrew bearings to this plate the ballscrew would be reasonably well protected as it would be hidden behind the plate. The ballscrew came from www.marchantdice.com, it's class 3 if I remember rightly, cost about £50 complete (7" travel) as the key slot in the journal was miss aligned, I didn't need the key slot so it didn't matter. The ballnut housing was machined the same way out of 25mm aluminium. The rails and bearing housings were set it channels to keep the profile of the z axis as slim as possible. The rails (bought off ebay) are THK HSR20 and complete overkill for this axis, 15mm rails would be more than enough but just couldn't find any cheap enough.

Mr.Chips
02-03-2007, 06:53 PM
All components for the Z axis were manually machined on the router. The router was mounted on a temporary Z plate fixed to the Y carriages. Depth of cut was controlled using a fine height adjuster on the router. At this point no ballscrews were fitted so care had to be taken. The Y axis was fixed with blocks clamped either side of the carriages when machining along X axis and X axis clamped with blocks when machining along the Y axis, absolutely no climb routing!! I started with the plate that the router, ballscrew support bearings and rails would be fixed to. Machined out of 20mm aluminium, the first task was to surface them. I bought a couple of throw away end mills and gave it a go with very fine cuts (the plate was fixed to the bed with countersunk screws). I soon wrecked my first cutter when I touched one of the fixing screws as spindle speed of 8000rpm was the slowest I could do. I then tried a solid tungsten carbide wood spiral cutter which gave far better results surfacing than the endmills, I did all the surfacing with this cutter. When I had finished the plate I had it checked by an engineer for flatness, he said he couldn't get it any flatter so I felt quite confident.

The front plate that the router and z motor would sit on was finished at 16"x8"x3/4". By fitting the z motor and ballscrew bearings to this plate the ballscrew would be reasonably well protected as it would be hidden behind the plate. The ballscrew came from www.marchantdice.com, it's class 3 if I remember rightly, cost about £50 complete (7" travel) as the key slot in the journal was miss aligned, I didn't need the key slot so it didn't matter. The ballnut housing was machined the same way out of 25mm aluminium. The rails and bearing housings were set it channels to keep the profile of the z axis as slim as possible. The rails (bought off ebay) are THK HSR20 and complete overkill for this axis, 15mm rails would be more than enough but just couldn't find any cheap enough.

Nice JOB. Who needs electricity. Energy saving CNC.

Hager

Haydn
02-03-2007, 07:04 PM
Thanks Hager.

If only it could be done without electricity, UK price for me has just gone up to 18.9P/KWh, 100% increase since this time last year :(

Haydn
02-03-2007, 07:15 PM
The plate which would mount to the Y axis carriages was machined in the same way. Again a channel down the middle to leave only the minimum clearance for the bearings. A hole was cut out with an endmill (again manually) for the nut housing to pass through and a plate used to fix the housing in place. You can see the clearance over the bearings in the pic.

Mr.Chips
02-03-2007, 07:23 PM
The plate which would mount to the Y axis carriages was machined in the same way. Again a channel down the middle to leave only the minimum clearance for the bearings. A hole was cut out with an endmill (again manually) for the nut housing to pass through and a plate used to fix the housing in place. You can see the clearance over the bearings in the pic.

That's a nice compact design, with plenty of mass for rigidity.

Can't wait to see your alignment figures, they should come out really good.

Hager

Oldmanandhistoy
02-04-2007, 08:35 AM
Hi Haydn,

This is an excellent thread; thanks for your time in this. Your work is excellent and I only hope I can come close to your standard when I start my aluminium and steel machine.
Have you started using the machine yet? I ask because there have been some discussions here on the zone about welding verses epoxy and bolted frames. It has been said that epoxy and bolted joints may loosen up in operation. I am keen to know how things go on your machine before I decide on using your approach or farming out the welding to some one else (I do not have the time to learn welding skills).

I have a small cnc router built using ply and the pipe method but it is time I had a better machine so am keen to get started. Working with steel and aluminium is going to be a steep learning curve for me as I am skilled in wood working only; so will be looking to the zone for all the help I can get. I have started gathering the linear bearings (Ebay) and am ready to purchase some aluminium (gantry will be aluminium and the rest will be steel) so will be making a start on the Y and Z axis soon I hope.

Any way thanks again for your time and trouble it is very much appreciated.:cheers:

John

Haydn
02-04-2007, 06:02 PM
Hi John,

Thanks for the comments. I haven't started using the machine yet. I have just been doing some motor tuning as I finally get an hour here and there to do the wiring. Initially things are looking good, far better than I had hoped for a stepper system. I currently have X (the axis I had concerns over-weight/inertia etc) running quite happily at 7000mm/min and have reached rapid max of 14500mm/min which looks impressive but i'm sure would be totaly unreliable without servos and encoders. At 15000mm/min the x axis locks and motor stalls.
I guess that each jointing method has its pros and cons. For me using epoxy, bolts and knock pins seems to be working well. I am a woodworker not a metal worker, I do a little welding from time to time but don't have the time or inclination to learn to stitch weld etc to get anywhere close to a stress free frame. This is my first machine and I kind of want to do the best I can as I can't afford the time to do it twice. By using epoxy and bolts I am able to reasonably easily correct problems I come across. I have seen people mention that epoxy joints tend to absorb vibration to some degree and I think i'm inclined to agree. One problem with the epoxy bed for rails that thankfully I didn't have to try and solve is a mis-placed hole cannot be welded and re-drilled as the epoxy will obviously melt. I guess that bolts can work loose but to me thats part of general machine maintenance. All bolts are threadlocked. Some where the joint shouldn't need to come apart just have epoxy squeeze out on the threads when they were joined. These do still unbolt but I have to put a bar on the allan key as they become very stiff-I don't think these will loosen but we will see very soon!

I looked around to see what other people were doing and what jointing systems were within my means without investing extra time and money. Seeing what people can achieve using epoxies on manufacturers web sites helped too. It seems to have worked for me but we shall see over time. The choice is varied and yours!!

Haydn

Haydn
02-04-2007, 07:03 PM
Next tasks were fitting the Y axis ballscrew and making/fitting the Z motor mount. The ballscrew support bearings were mounted on the aluminium gantry uprights, a jig was made to lay a bed of epoxy on the aluminium for the bearings at equal distance from the Y rails (remember that the extusion does not have flat faces). The ball screw was fitted with a measured runout of 0.02-0.03mm. This was higher than I hoped to achieve but the screw had a small bend in it which made measurement tricky. In use the screw is very smooth with no binding or stiffening. I will check that the nut does not get warm in use, indicating an alignment problem. I then manually machined a yoke to connect the ball nut to the Z plate. You can see the epoxy bed for the bearings in the pic.

Haydn
02-08-2007, 02:15 AM
[QUOTE=Haydn;249546] I managed 7500mm/min without too much trouble at 10000mm/min the motor could not overcome the inertia. I am quite happy with this as I planned to get somewhere in the region of 5000mm/min./QUOTE]


Please ignore this comment from one of my previous posts, I am getting wrong information from mach, I have discovered a timing issue with the PC which I am trying to sort!

Haydn
02-08-2007, 02:26 AM
Here are a couple of pics showing where it's up to at this stage. Any questions fire away i'll do my best!

Haydn
02-08-2007, 03:07 PM
OK, I sorted the timing issue and have got even better results. I have managed to run rapids at 13500mm/min and still have the gantry drag me across the floor! Sweet and smooth.

Things are looking up again.

Mike F
02-08-2007, 06:27 PM
Haydn,

I don't understand how you are managing to get rapids of 13.5m/min using a ballscrew? How long and what diameter is the ballscrew? I am using a 2 metre long ballscrew, 25mm diameter an 5mm pitch and can only get rapids of 3.5-4m/min because the ballscrew is limited to an rpm of 800 to avoid whipping. I can only assume your ballscrew has a very coarse pitch.

Please enlighten me.

Mike

Haydn
02-08-2007, 08:04 PM
Hi Mike,

My screw is 1500mm long, 25mm dia and 10mm lead, it's supported with THK BK and BF17's. The screw is direct driven and has a runout of 0.01mm after fitting. The screw itself is very stiff which was useful, making alignment much easier than the smaller Y screw. The motors I am using are 1.8 deg 640oz in, these are running at 60v 5.5A which is pretty close to their limit. This is deliberate so I can get better acceleration. At 13.5m/min the stepper would be going 1350rpm, any faster and i'm sure the torque will drop off very quickly. The screw runs true, you cant see any wobble at all. I can see a bit on the Y screw though this did have a slight bend in it before fitting.
Did you get your screw new or secondhand? How accurate is the end machining? If the end machining was a bit excentric that could cause the problem.....just a thought.


Haydn

Edit: my pitch is twice yours so were probably going to be in the same ballpark as far as running/working the machine goes.

Mike F
02-09-2007, 04:07 AM
Haydn,

My screws are all brand new, THK, machined by THK and using the same fixings as you, it's just that the manufacturers data says I should not run the X axis screw any more than 800rpm which would give me 4000mm/min. You must be exceeding the recommended rpm limit for your screw if you are achieving 13500mm/min. I have to say that my servos, 430oz/in from HomeCNC, will only spin at 1600rpm max and with a 2:1 reduction, the screw turns at 800rpm and at this speed there is absolutely no deflection or any sign of whipping at all. I feel pretty confident that I could spin the screw much faster but to start with, I thought I had better remain inside the manufacturers recommended speed.

I appreciate your screw is shorter and twice the pitch and it would be interesting to know what the recommended speed should be and by how much you are exceeding it. If I find the time I will look up the data. If my calculations are right, you must be spinning your screw at 1350rpm.

Mike

Haydn
02-09-2007, 05:22 AM
Hi Mike,

Thats interesting to hear, I rang the man who made the screw for me. He said I should be ok at about 1000rpm and that manufacturers specs are often below the real limits which I can understand. He did say that a 10mm screw will wip less than a 5mm screw but the maths is a nightmare! Though I can run at that speed I won't be, I don't need to. Ideally (which I didn't think I would achieve) I wanted to be able to feed at carbide spiral cutter rates which are between 5 and 10m/min. I do this manually at work and the cutters last so much longer if feed is high. So in a working environment it is likely that I probably wont rapid over 10m/min, no point in running it to such a point that ballnuts wear prematurely etc. Though the screw is great and am very happy, I am more surprised that the motors can handle it!

Thanks for asking about this, it made me clarify the point with the engineer that made the screw (and manufactures cnc machines), in his opinion it will probably be ok but, probably has a hint of doubt which could turn out to be expensive!

Thanks
Haydn

Haydn
02-09-2007, 08:09 AM
Hi Mike again,

Just to clarify my ballscrew is not a THK. There are a lot of variables that determine working limits of a screw, nut rotational load, ball size etc DN and DP values are variable through different screw types, and the resonant frequency of the screw itself which may well be why you are suffering with wobble over 800rpm.

Just a thought, the maths is beyond me!

Mike F
02-09-2007, 08:57 AM
Haydn,

Thanks for the reply. I am not actually experiencing any flexing of the screw but that is only because I cannot drive the screw fast enough to find out what its limit is :) My limiting factor is the servos - they can only spin at around 1600. I suppose I could try a 1:1 drive and double the speed but that will be an experiment well in the future.

It would be nice to rapid at your kind of speeds, especially with a machine that is 2000mm long, but I will only be cutting at very much lower speeds, well within the current setup limits.

Thanks again,

Mike

JerryFlyGuy
02-09-2007, 10:01 AM
Haydn, a couple questions and a point or two.

Questions first, what make of stepper are you using? I've got 640's as well and was wondering if you have a rough 'force' number. Do you think you are getting ~100lb's at this 1350 rpm? From your numbers I can then calculate what my machine's gonna do at that stepper speed.. and interpolate what it will do between there and 0 rpm. I've done the math from 'the ground up' but real life experiance is the real story.

Also, are you using a pre-loaded ballscrew? [Zero backlash or something?] I could see that using one of these 'tighter' ballscrews might decrease the efficency of the screw, maybe this is why Mike can't get as high a speed due to increased pre-load on his screw??

What kind of accelleration time do you have? Ie; full stop to full 13.5m/min is X seconds..

I find it interesting that you can get to 1350rpm w/ that large of a stepper. I assume its a 34 frame motor? I'd always 'guessed' that they wouldn't really get over 1000rpm or so. I used to always calculate my stepper stuff from the torque, however Mariss has been kind enough to clarify that we should be calculating the 'power' not just the torque [Torque*rpm/ some number] will give power, power is a real indication of performance over just the torque value.

Thanks for the great thread and pictures!

Jerry

Haydn
02-10-2007, 08:16 AM
Hi Jerry,

I have the Rex RHT640 motors. I don't have a torque curve for these and had a look at the HomeShop site where I got them from and it looks like these have been replaced with a 740oz version. I don't have any means to measure the thrust at these speeds, all I can say is I cant stop by leaning on the gantry! Please remember that these are only rough tests. I am supplying the motors 60V at 5.5A which is pretty well at their limits. I may well find that if the motors were run for any time and these speeds they may get overly hot due to iron losses. I have the acceleration set to 300mm/sec/sec. If your motors have a high detent torque you probably wont get decent acceleration and speed, a problem with triple stack and 42 size motors. I think running at these speeds in a working situation may cause the gantry to sway if acceleration/deceleration was too high. Hopefully I will have the real life experience soon! I didn't do the maths, I looked to see what was working for other people and took it from there - other peoples real life experiences, I found too many variables in the theory and measurements I couldn't make. I remember reading an article somewhere about steppers performing well around the 1000-1200rpm mark and performance dropping off sharply after that, wish I could remember where it was.

Here is an email quote from homeshop :

"I would recommend 60-65 volts as this will give you more high speed torque. The motors will run quite warm but that's OK. Maris likes to see people use his drivers to run motors on the cool side but I've pressed him on this before and he will concede that steppers are made to run hot and that the losses that occure are not enough to result in lower torque that if run cool. Many people run out 640's at 68 volts w/Geckos for the extra torque."

We shall see how hot they get! 68V would be over 25 times the rated voltage. I use a 180K current limit resistor, I see some people have opted not to which can give higgher high speed torque but linearity is lost as the motors could draw up to 7A.

My ballscrew has adjustable preload/backlash. At present this is set for a light preload.

Haven't calculated the power, but do remember Mariss telling me that over 200w servo's would be more appropriate.

Hope this helps

Haydn

JerryFlyGuy
02-10-2007, 10:34 AM
Thanks Haydn, I've purchased different motors than yourself. They are 640's and I think they are triples but can't remember for sure. Anyway, to really know a comparable performance I'd need some type of force number but thats ok. Really, the only way to know what is going to happen is to try it and see, which will be happening fairly soon I hope :)

Thanks for your time Haydn

Jerry

Haydn
02-10-2007, 07:13 PM
Hope things work out as you plan Jerry.

Haydn

Haydn
02-10-2007, 07:23 PM
Here you can see the Y axis motor mount. The mount was machined manually, I think there is a pic of part of it being machined in a previous post. The counter bore for the motor frame was done with a jig and a hand router at low speeds and fine cuts. In the second pic you can see Y and Z motors fitted, the Z mount is a 20mm thick aluminium plate. The X axis ballscrew is assembled and waits to be fitted.

Haydn
02-11-2007, 05:59 PM
I had done most of the electronics by the time I got to this stage. Here is a picture of the controller. You have left to right, main on, start and e-stop motor ground x, y, z.

On the back bottom left to top left, 5A fuses Geckos, machine e-stop out, x,z , motor out, limits x, y, z parallel port. On the right ther is mains in and a spindle in/out and extractor in/out controlled by SSR's.

bp092
02-11-2007, 07:37 PM
you did a really nice job on the controller, any pics of the insides :D?

Haydn
02-12-2007, 05:13 AM
Hi BP,

Here are some pics of the inside of the controller, still a couple of bits to wire at this stage, two SSR's for spindle and vac control, the remote machine mounted e-stop circuit and the limit switch connections from jack sockets to breakout board. You can see the two SSR's in the last pic.

Haydn

rstrease
02-13-2007, 11:22 AM
Nice machine! Do you have plans for someone else to build?

Haydn
02-13-2007, 03:51 PM
Nice machine! Do you have plans for someone else to build?

Sorry rs, I don't have any plans. When I started I did drawings etc and a bit of 3D cad, mostly just the frame. Once I had started I worked out each bit in stages as a lot of the parts were bought from ebay so I had to plan around what was available.

Haydn

Haydn
02-14-2007, 03:02 PM
Just a quick bit of info on the supply for the controller. The supply puts out 60Vdc at 11A, near the 25x limit for the rating of the motors. Inrush current is taken care of via an NTC thermistor which is across a time delay relay. The relay is set for 0.5sec. The run switch is also controlled via a relay, one pole if I remember rightly passes current to the transformer, the other pole discharges the filter cap when the unit is switched off. No current draining or limiting resistors are left in the control circuit when the unit is switched on. The E-stop turns off the supply but keeps power to the breakout board. Another pole on the e-stop breaks the circuit on the breakout board and sends the e-stop signal to mach. This way the pc knows whats happened and power is shut off to spindle, motors etc. The controller will not work unless the e-stop cable to the machine is connected. Having the NTC switched out of the circuit allows it time to cool so in the event of an e-stop the unit can be reset and the ntc should be effective again. It seems to work well, the whole unit is fused with a 5A slow blow which has never tripped. The heatsink for the Gecko's is just a bit of overkill! Not suprisingly they don't get hot!

mar999
02-16-2007, 04:19 PM
heres one that im building not finished yet as you can see but im making good progress. started this machine 3 weeks ago little by little :) 31780 im getting close

Haydn
02-18-2007, 04:57 AM
Looking good mar, hope it works out well for you.

Haydn

stone1925
02-18-2007, 06:26 AM
Hello
I have been following this thread for a while.........getting a few tips for buliding my own. Where did you get the casing for the control box and is there a 'one stop' supplier for all the electronic bits (in the UK) you need to put in the control box.

Haydn
02-18-2007, 05:37 PM
Hello
I have been following this thread for a while.........getting a few tips for buliding my own. Where did you get the casing for the control box and is there a 'one stop' supplier for all the electronic bits (in the UK) you need to put in the control box.

Hi Stone,

You can buy Gecko's from Astrosyn in the UK - http://www.astrosyn.com/ if I remember rightly they are a little pricey from them, with pound dollar rates you may do better from the US.

All power supply parts are from RS Electronics - www.rswww.com, this includes most of the relays and the sockets.

The case is a 4U 19" rack box from Maplin Electronics - www.maplin.co.uk

The switch gear is from RS and the scrap yard. E-stop switched etc are pricey £20-£80, I got mine from scrap yards, though you can get them on ebay at a decent price.

The Campbell breakout board is from the US - www.campbelldesigns.com

You may be able to get drivers from www.marchantdice.com, check the site or the link on the home page to the ebay store. Good to deal with, most of my linear hardware is from there.

Hope this helps. You could get everything from RS but you will find cases very expensive! Glad you found some useful info from this thread!


Haydn

Haydn
02-20-2007, 03:56 AM
I've put a couple of videos up on Youtube for you to look at. The one where the machine is just doing rapids has gone a bit pear shaped with their conversion- the sound is out of sink. The other video is a G code test using the New Fangled Plugin in Mach3.

Should have some chips flying next week!

Machine Rapids :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecWNTGk8AP4

G Code test :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p90UUFzs_gY

Haydn

bp092
02-20-2007, 01:31 PM
Looks wicked fast, you built a nice machine. How much did that setup run you all costs included?

Haydn
02-20-2007, 03:27 PM
Looks wicked fast, you built a nice machine. How much did that setup run you all costs included?

Hi BP,

Thanks for comment. I originally had a budget of £1500. I have pretty much kept to that (going over a bit), largely down to some good fortune with ebay and being able to get things like switch gear, e-stops etc from scrap yards. These I didn't take into account in my original budget as I thought a few pounds here and there won't change much in the overall scheme of things-until I got prices from RS etc! Scrap yard saved me a lot here. All the aluminium plate was bought for pennies from an engineering company I went to, I spied a crate full of bits asked what it was for, it was scrap to be weighed in. I took more than I needed and gave them 48 cans of lager for christmas! Steel was bought cheap as 'offcut' ends of 7.6m lengths. On top of the budget I spent about £150-£200 pounds on tools, some new (dial gauges, precision squares etc), some from ebay which saved a fortune - 5 foot grade A straight edges arent cheap new, I got mine for £40 on ebay, similarly precision level etc. The only thing I need to buy is the router, I have one I can use but, I will always need a 1/2" hand router so I will fit the new one to the machine, another £200, also a licence for Mach3.
The cheap steel and aluminium was the clincher, it allowed me to spend more on good quality ballscrews and support bearings. Only the Y rails are new, the rest off ebay.The motors and breakout board were from the states and £/$ rate worked heavily to my advantage- much cheaper than buying from the UK.

If I tried to budget this build again I think it would have to be £2K or more. It depends how long you want to wait for parts to come up on ebay!

Haydn

Haydn
02-21-2007, 07:39 PM
Back to the build!

After getting the y and z done I made the dust screen for the Y axis ballscrew. I used draught excluder brushes from B&Q. The brushes are aluminium, which is only just thick enough to tap an M3 thread. They were bolted to a length of 50mm aluminium equal angle and mounted so that the brushes would run in the middle of the Y ballnut housing mount. The brushes do retain distortion if the machine is parked up for a while but, this soon goes when things start to run again. Seems to work quite well. Much cheaper than bellows and well worth it.

Oldmanandhistoy
02-22-2007, 12:16 PM
Hi Haydn,

Excellent idea with the draught excluder brushes. I am quite envious of your machine.
If this machine is going to be used for wood products I would bloke in the back of your gantry also. You will be amazed at where that dust will get.

John

Haydn
02-22-2007, 03:36 PM
Hi Haydn,

Excellent idea with the draught excluder brushes. I am quite envious of your machine.
If this machine is going to be used for wood products I would bloke in the back of your gantry also. You will be amazed at where that dust will get.

John

Hi John,

The back of the gantry has an aluminium plate covering it with rubber draught excluder squashed between it and the gantry beams. I only put the rubber in as the aluminium is only 2mm thick and would probably sing quite nicely from vibrations, it also makes a good dust seal.

Haydn

Oldmanandhistoy
02-22-2007, 03:41 PM
Seems like you have all the angles covered I will sit back and just observe.

Any chance you could build one for me :) (only joking)?

Like the vid's btw

John

Haydn
02-22-2007, 03:45 PM
Seems like you have all the angles covered I will sit back and just observe.

Any chance you could build one for me :) (only joking)?

Like the vid's btw

John


:wave:

If I built another one of these i'd be divorced!

eloid
02-22-2007, 10:35 PM
Hi Stone,

You can buy Gecko's from Astrosyn in the UK - http://www.astrosyn.com/ if I remember rightly they are a little pricey from them, with pound dollar rates you may do better from the US.

All power supply parts are from RS Electronics - www.rswww.com, this includes most of the relays and the sockets.

The case is a 4U 19" rack box from Maplin Electronics - www.maplin.co.uk

The switch gear is from RS and the scrap yard. E-stop switched etc are pricey £20-£80, I got mine from scrap yards, though you can get them on ebay at a decent price.

The Campbell breakout board is from the US - www.campbelldesigns.com

You may be able to get drivers from www.marchantdice.com, check the site or the link on the home page to the ebay store. Good to deal with, most of my linear hardware is from there.

Hope this helps. You could get everything from RS but you will find cases very expensive! Glad you found some useful info from this thread!


Haydn

what are the specs and size of your motor for all axis?, which gecko u using
also what the pitch on ball screw on x and y

Haydn
02-23-2007, 12:49 PM
Hi Eloid,

Its in aprevious post but here it is again.

Rex Step 34RH640 motors on all axis, X and Y screws are 10mm pitch, Z is 5mm. I'm using G201 drivers, if you don't have any get the G202 as it has short circuit protection built in.

Haydn

eloid
02-25-2007, 01:04 PM
can u expalin how you when about, adjust the x, y, z axis for planarization accuracy with respect to the table and x, y,z?

Haydn
02-25-2007, 03:54 PM
Eloid,

The X axis master rail was mounted against a known accurate cast steel epoxy reference edge. This was mounted level with the table, using dial indicators. The secondary rail was mounted parallel and level with the master using dial indicators and a grade a straight edge (see previous post).

When the gantry was assembled one bolt on one side held it down, a clamp on the other side. The stright edge was laid out on the bed, long edge parallel with the x axis. A dial gauge on the gantry was used to get this parallel to the X axis. The straight edge was clamped down and a precision suare was clamped against it, long edge up th Y axis. The dial gauge was mounted on the Z plate with its tip running along the edge of the square. The clamp holding one side of the gantry was loosened and a jacking screw used to 'rotate' the gantry until the dial gauge needle didn't move (see previous post).

Once square the Y beams were levelled with the bed, again dial indicators were used. The Z was then made square to the table using the precision square against the Z carriages, and was checked with dial indicators.

I think there's a bit more in previous posts.

Haydn

bonehead
02-25-2007, 04:14 PM
Nice work Haydn

I will be starting my first CNC router very soon would love to get info on your project. Once again very nive work.

Haydn
02-25-2007, 06:48 PM
Thanks Bonehead,

I hope you find some useful ideas, my inspiration came from http://oneoceankayaks.com/madvac/madvac_index.htm

Haydn

crocky
02-26-2007, 03:59 AM
Hi Haydn,

Thanks for the link, I have been wondering who this madvac is that I had heard so much about?

You would be surprised who is watching and not saying much :rolleyes:

I will be building soon, just got the bearings and rails today :)

Regards,
Bob

Haydn
02-27-2007, 04:16 PM
Glad to help Bob. Hope your machine goes to plan.

Haydn

Haydn
03-02-2007, 03:37 PM
Though the machine isn't 100% finished, I have had a good play. The spindle was temporary mounted (usuall plunge router, I think its in the pic in the start of this thread) and I had a go at machining a motor mount. Had to be careful with z heights as the motor was mounted with clamps! Managed to cut out the mount in 18mm aluminium, it was a bit of a brown trouser moment, not the best of finishes but it came out good enough to use. I have now mounted the spindle properly and it's very rigid (will be more so by the time I get some angle brackets on). I always intended using a dewalt router, I've always used Elu but they were bought up by Dewalt and this model is the same as my old 2kW Elu. A lot of machines I've seen mount the router via the plunge base. I don't like this idea as most of the play and vibration is caused by the plunge pillars vibrating. The Dewalt is one of the few routers I've seen (and old Elu) which has a machined base with tapped mounting holes for fixed head use (I assume thats what they are there for), so I can easily dispense with the plunge base and have a lot more rigidity and tool/part clearance. The disadvantage is if you use a 2" long tool you effectively loose quite a lot safe z clearance, so I have short and long tools.
You can see it in the pics. I just need to wire it up to my controller and loose the handles.

Haydn

Haydn
03-09-2007, 05:17 AM
I've been asked by several people for my controller circuit. I've been a bit reluctant to put it up but, hey ho.

Here it is, I cannot guarantee accuracy, there may be errors, I am not an electrical engineer. Use at your own risk......

Haydn

Haydn
05-26-2007, 05:11 AM
OK, I've been away from here for a while, busy at work and playing with my machine. It is now pretty well finished bar a couple of minor mods. I don't have any new pics as my camera is goosed but should get some in the next few days.

Runs like a dream! After isolating a vibration problem down to the ridiculous adjustable feet, they have been removed- take my advice don't use anything similar, the difference with them off is enormous. I can run the machine at Mach3 maximum ie 13500mm/min without stalling, in reality I am running at 8000-10000mm/min, sometimes slower depending on what i'm doing. I am going to add some strengthening/stiffening braces to the motor mount to improve aluminium machining finish as I can feel some vibration there. I am not worried about this as it wasn't built for machining ali, just a bonus if i can. Extraction needs to be sorted and limit switches wired up.

Totaly chuffed with it, works even better with Quantum.

Will try and get more up again soon!

Oldmanandhistoy
05-26-2007, 08:48 AM
Hi again,
I am please to hear you have made good progress with your build. I did think we may not hear from you as you would be far too busy making money.

Nice speeds you have there btw.:)

Look forward to seeing the updated pictures; thanks for posting this thread it have been very interesting and informative. I hope you will update with pictures of course when you have some finished jobs. I will probably give you a nudge some time to ask how the frame has held up if that is ok? Please don’t think I am disrespecting your machine or your design skills; it’s just down to what others have said about a non welded frame.

John

thkoutsidthebox
05-26-2007, 04:17 PM
Hey! Thats the same as my router, the DW625. :D We have good taste! I have to buy a second one to mount on my cnc table, just using the baby DeWalt at the moment until I get the cash sorted for another one. :o Would you be able to post the G-Code or a .dxf of your mount so that I could cut one aswell? I'd appreciate it. :)

Haydn
05-26-2007, 06:00 PM
Hi again,
I am please to hear you have made good progress with your build. I did think we may not hear from you as you would be far too busy making money.

Nice speeds you have there btw.:)

Look forward to seeing the updated pictures; thanks for posting this thread it have been very interesting and informative. I hope you will update with pictures of course when you have some finished jobs. I will probably give you a nudge some time to ask how the frame has held up if that is ok? Please don’t think I am disrespecting your machine or your design skills; it’s just down to what others have said about a non welded frame.

John

So far the frame seems solid as a rock, the only part I would change is the uprights for the gantry, these are 80x80 ali extrusion. If I knew the machine would perform as well as it does I would have used steel for better rigidity as it does tend to flex with rapid changes of direction/inertia. This is one of the mods I need to sort, if I had the time and inclination I would replace them with steel.

Thanks for the comments!

Haydn
05-26-2007, 06:10 PM
Hey! Thats the same as my router, the DW625. :D We have good taste! I have to buy a second one to mount on my cnc table, just using the baby DeWalt at the moment until I get the cash sorted for another one. :o Would you be able to post the G-Code or a .dxf of your mount so that I could cut one aswell? I'd appreciate it. :)

I may still have a gcode file for it. I did have to do some hand filing for the spindle lock as that was a bit ticky to try and workout exactly where it should be. If I find it i'll put it up in a post.

The dw625 is the only router I know with tapped fixings and face machined case casting, same as my old faithful Elu (and the newer Trend T9, could be T10, which is the same machine).

thkoutsidthebox
05-26-2007, 06:19 PM
I may still have a gcode file for it. I did have to do some hand filing for the spindle lock as that was a bit ticky to try and workout exactly where it should be. If I find it i'll put it up in a post.

The dw625 is the only router I know with tapped fixings and face machined case casting, same as my old faithful Elu (and the newer Trend T9, could be T10, which is the same machine).

Thanks Haydn. Yeah the 625 is a great machine, I'm very happy with the one I have for hand use in 110V. :) But the cnc mounted one will be 220V, even more torque, not that I'll need it, shes a bit of a beast and tends to walk away by herself while I'm using her! :eek:

Haydn
05-26-2007, 06:29 PM
Thanks Haydn. Yeah the 625 is a great machine, I'm very happy with the one I have for hand use in 110V. :) But the cnc mounted one will be 220V, even more torque, not that I'll need it, shes a bit of a beast and tends to walk away by herself while I'm using her! :eek:

Mine runs like @*!X when you accidently climb mill aluminium by hand with a 20mm dia cutter!!!

Wont do that again in a hurry!! (nuts)

Haydn
06-16-2007, 05:19 PM
Here are a few pictures of where things were at a little time ago. Everything is running dandy but not all of the mods are done in these pics. The controller is under the slide out keyboard in the cabinet. You may not be able to see the hold down/fixings in the bed, I wrote a program to drill holes every 100mm in x and y through the bed. I took the bed off and hammered pronged T nuts (M6) into the underside and put the bed back on. Parts are held down using bars which are fastened using M6 cap screws of various length. This is simple and works very well for me. Extraction is not seen in the pics, this is set to run automatically via the controller and mach but I am still looking for the hosing I want to use.

Have cut a few parts, some for the machine in aluminium, have made a digitizing probe on the machine and a few other odds and sods to get use to how everything works.

I am pretty happy as it is!

Haydn

Haydn
06-17-2007, 05:14 PM
Here are a couple of test parts made when setting up/tuning the machine. Mostly just for fun apart from the probe, pictured without the stylus which I am about to make (ball nose carbide burr with the burr removed). The bird is about 2.5" across, the triceratops was a bit of fun for my two boys.

Haydn
06-18-2007, 12:18 PM
Here are a couple of pics of the probe internals. Modified from original drawings by Shaun Wainford.

Thanks to Shaun for this.

Haydn
06-21-2007, 07:41 PM
Made my first commercial parts yesterday. Went pretty well, a custom spacing bridge bass plate for Overwater Basses made in aluminium, machined front and back, they were happy so I am happy. Now I can start trying to get something back from what i've put into the machine. I have some strong interest from a few other people including one of my long term business suppliers. Hopefully things will pan out ok.

So thats just about it. I will put a post up when I get the probe going and there will be a video at some point if I get the chance!

Thanks all!

Haydn

Oldmanandhistoy
06-22-2007, 04:48 AM
Hi Haydn,

Just wanted to say thank you for sharing your build it has been interesting and informative. I hope all goes well for you with future plans.

Regards,
John

Haydn
06-29-2007, 03:08 PM
Thanks for that John, glad someone has found it useful.

Probe works a treat by the way!

Haydn

Haydn
07-07-2007, 06:15 AM
Did some inlay work the other day and was quite shocked at the results. The customer wanted a scorpion inlay in his fretboard. The design I did was small and the smallest cutter I had was 1mm. I roughed out the pockets with the 1mm cutter and ground down the tip of a 0.4mm carbide drill and used this to rest rough!! The pockets are 3mm deep and the cutter didnt break so runout on this dewalt spindle must be pretty low if anyones considering one!

The pearl, abalone and cocobolo inlay parts were all cut with the 1mm cutter.

Here is a pic anyway

Haydn

Thazul
07-07-2007, 06:39 AM
Very impressive!

What is the glassy pearl like looking material you inlaid in the pincers, legs & head region of the scorpion?

I hope my machine turns out as good as yours, keep up the good work!

ger21
07-07-2007, 07:30 AM
What is the glassy pearl like looking material you inlaid in the pincers, legs & head region of the scorpion?


Abalone

Haydn
07-08-2007, 06:08 PM
Thanks Thazul, just glad I didnt have to cut it by hand!

Gers right, tail is green abalone, legs are New Zealand pau, head is awabi and pincers are donkey ear abolone!

Cheers

foam27
07-08-2007, 07:31 PM
Good job man!

I know that Z was a lot of work!

It's always nice to see a well thought out machine made with the RIGHT materials and slides!

Regards,
Justin in AZ

Haydn
07-13-2007, 03:43 PM
Good job man!

I know that Z was a lot of work!

It's always nice to see a well thought out machine made with the RIGHT materials and slides!

Regards,
Justin in AZ

Thanks Justin,

Not that well thought out but worked out ok in the end!

Regards,
Haydn

Drakkn
07-15-2007, 05:01 PM
stunning work on that scorpion - do you have gcode available

my machine is about 50% done - started to do a jrgo - ended up doing a steel/ally machine in the end,

Once again great work

Haydn
07-15-2007, 07:07 PM
stunning work on that scorpion - do you have gcode available

my machine is about 50% done - started to do a jrgo - ended up doing a steel/ally machine in the end,

Once again great work

I do have the g code but this is going to be offered as a custom option on the basses I build for the company I do work for so I can't really make it available. I hope you understand.

Thanks for the comments though!

Haydn

Haydn
07-15-2007, 07:28 PM
I've done a bit of a video of the machine running. Not going flat out as there is no great need, just doing what it was built for! See what you think!?

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xlGu51uqNgQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xlGu51uqNgQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


Many thanks

Haydn

Oldmanandhistoy
07-15-2007, 09:06 PM
Nice going Haydn you must be well chuffed. Nice edit job on the video also :)

John

ger21
07-15-2007, 09:14 PM
What software did you use for the carving of the cutaway?

Haydn
07-16-2007, 05:05 AM
Nice going Haydn you must be well chuffed. Nice edit job on the video also :)

John

Thanks yet again John!

Haydn
07-16-2007, 05:08 AM
What software did you use for the carving of the cutaway?

Solidcam, saving like crazy to get it! At the moment using it in college through some friends that work there but I don't think that will last much longer. I think it's great.

Cheers,

Haydn

JerryFlyGuy
07-18-2007, 01:11 PM
Very nice Haydn!! I take it your enjoying SolidCam. Have you taken courses in it, or are you self taught? I'm shopping for a new CAM and would like something that I can expand into 5axis as well.. I've yet to talk to very many people who have used SC so it's good to hear some feedback.

Also, what kind of facing cutter/tooling are you using there at the start and finish of the job? I've been looking for something like that to face off my bed on my mill but couldn't find anything.. the closest I got was a T-slot cutter w/out a replaceable head.. it didn't have the retaining nut so it would have worked.. however it was a throw away cutter.. plus it was in a set.. and I couldn't see spending that kinda cash for 25 router bits 85% of them I'd never use.. and they were pretty darn cheap as far as quality to boot..

Curious..
Thanks Sir!
Jerry

Haydn
07-18-2007, 08:29 PM
Thanks Jerry,

I'm pretty much self taught with solidcam, but only been using it for a few months. The help files are pretty good and the manual is too. It seems fairly straight forward to use and pretty powerful as far as toolpath manipulation goes - apart from open pockets which I still can't figure out properly! I use a copy in the college some friends work at but I won't be able to use it come september so I'm going crazy trying to get code done for my repetative jobs! Then i'm not sure what i'll do, I certainly can't afford sc, One CNC seems competitve in comparison but still expensive and I don't know anyone who uses it to see what it's like. From what I've read about sc on this forum there is an issue with it's 5 axis capabilities but I can't remember what!

The cutter is a six flute surface trim cutter from

http://www.wealdentool.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Surface_Trim_225.html

It's pretty good, the best surface cutter I've used. I used to use a 2" dia tenon cutter for surfacing which was good but used to clog with resin quickly as there wasn't much airflow under the body of the cutter.
The company is in the UK but they do ship overseas.

All the best

Haydn

JerryFlyGuy
07-18-2007, 11:23 PM
Thanks Haydn, Thats exactly what I'm looking for. I may look around and see if there are local people who have something similar but.. in the end I may have to buy from over there.

Btw, I have OneCnc Xr2 Pro +4th and it all seem's like a pretty swell program. The surfacing part of the program seem's really robust. I haven't used it yet as I'm just getting the mill done but, I will for the first little while, until I decide what I'm doing w/ the 5axis stuff. Really that is the only reason I'm looking else where. They are working on [or possibly it's already functional; I don't keep too close a tab's on what the updates change] getting set up to import native SW files so that will be a plus also. If they did true 5axis [they only do 3+2] I'd most likely just upgrade what I have.

If/when I do buy a new program I'll be putting it out for sale.. if your still looking when that happens we can talk about it some more then.

Thanks again for the tooling links!
Jerry

bigbunny5
07-19-2007, 03:59 AM
First Very Nice Machine. I hope mine comes out that nice some day:) BUT



....the machine can be dismantled and transported elsewhere if need be. .... (I hope to never move from my workshop!)
That's Your shop ?????
you live in stately Wayne Manor? You want to come over and see if you can make my shop that nice ??? Hardwoods would last a DAY maybe 2 in my shop. I use to live in a Warehouse Apt with 2" thick oak floors that lasted 80 years before I moved in. 3 days after

Haydn
07-19-2007, 04:48 AM
Thanks Haydn, Thats exactly what I'm looking for. I may look around and see if there are local people who have something similar but.. in the end I may have to buy from over there.

Btw, I have OneCnc Xr2 Pro +4th and it all seem's like a pretty swell program. The surfacing part of the program seem's really robust. I haven't used it yet as I'm just getting the mill done but, I will for the first little while, until I decide what I'm doing w/ the 5axis stuff. Really that is the only reason I'm looking else where. They are working on [or possibly it's already functional; I don't keep too close a tab's on what the updates change] getting set up to import native SW files so that will be a plus also. If they did true 5axis [they only do 3+2] I'd most likely just upgrade what I have.

If/when I do buy a new program I'll be putting it out for sale.. if your still looking when that happens we can talk about it some more then.

Thanks again for the tooling links!
Jerry

I may be interested in that if you come to sell it. I'm looking too at the moment, for me there seems to be a big leap from cam thats not quite powerful enough but affordable(ish) to all singing and dancing over complicated(!?) professor written cam for advanced machining. I tried student edition of edgecam which I actually quite liked but difficult to get started with as the help and tutorial files are thin on the ground apart from www.camforce.com, gave up in the end as way too pricey.

Had a quick look your side of the pond for a similar cutter and was surprised not to find anything similar apart from

http://www.morriswoodtool.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MWT&Product_Code=6252ST

But that seems pretty pricey to me. If I come across anything i'll let you know.

Haydn

Haydn
07-19-2007, 04:57 AM
First Very Nice Machine. I hope mine comes out that nice some day:) BUT


That's Your shop ?????
you live in stately Wayne Manor? You want to come over and see if you can make my shop that nice ??? Hardwoods would last a DAY maybe 2 in my shop. I use to live in a Warehouse Apt with 2" thick oak floors that lasted 80 years before I moved in. 3 days after

Lol, thats not the first time someone has said that!
I bought my workshop as a wrotten run down ex village church for not much money. I spent about two years doing repairs and getting it the way I want it. I've been building guitars professionaly for over 15 years now and every shop i've worked in has been pants! Stone or concrete floors which are great for breaking tools if you drop one, they give you sore knees if the floor stays cold, having to carry 10' planks up and down stairs from wood store to machine shop etc, drives you potty after a few years. So now having my own pad, taking my time rebuilding it and laying it out in a way that works for me is a boon. Has its down side - no toilet, hmmm maybe I can cnc one in marble!

Good luck with your machine

Haydn

JerryFlyGuy
07-20-2007, 05:32 PM
Well, I must be lucky or something as I finally found one of those surfacing cutters. I've starting to find the websites which sell bit's which are off the beaten path, so-to-speak. Everyone sells trim bits and smaller sqr bits etc.. not to many sell surfacing bits.

Here's the one I found from over this side of the world..
http://www.toolstoday.com/pc-4979-369-counter-top-trim-router-bits-6-wing.asPX

But while looking I also found this, which is even more interesting as it's even bigger. http://www.toolstoday.com/pc-5805-369-4-wing-cut-out-router-bits-for-solid-surface.aspx it looks like these bits are for cutting off old plastic type sinks and what not.. I suspect they would/should still work fine on wood. After all, you are using one just like the first link so.. I suspect the second one should work also. I may buy one of those 3.625" ones as well as the other one just to try them both out.. see how they work etc..

Thanks again for getting me on the right road.. it's all in the name I guess :)

Best

Jerry

Jason Marsha
07-20-2007, 06:53 PM
Spoilboard surfacing tool. Very pricey.
1/2" and 3/4 shank

http://www.toolstoday.com/search/search.aspx?keywords=rc-2258
http://www.toolstoday.com/search/search.aspx?keywords=rc-2257

Jason

JerryFlyGuy
07-20-2007, 09:59 PM
not exactly cheap are they? I'm not sure if the cheaper tool is better but.. I can try it for starters and see if it works. I'm not sure how much I'll need one.. and if it goes dull and it looks like I'll be using one regularly, then I may buy a spoil board surfacing cutter.. we'll have to see..

TK-Y'hama
07-20-2007, 10:28 PM
Good looking machine!
What are you making with the machine; metal, wood, plastic?

Epoxy instead of welding is of my interest. Can you give me more information about epoxy? I am just a biginner of engineering.

Regards
TK-Y'hama

svenakela
07-22-2007, 04:58 PM
Haydn, great machine. Fun to see someone else that uses epoxi for lining. I do too. Always. :)
And yeah, the Madvac-CNC is a legendary machine made by the member Oneyaker, I think he made an impression on a lot of people with that build up. I must say you have a veeeery close to legendary thing coming here. Thumbs up!

I noticed you have made a crosslink on the gantry sides, did you notice flex?

Regards,
Sven

keitholivier
07-22-2007, 07:49 PM
Haydn

Just found this thread today and want to commend your workmanship and ingenuity in accomplishing what you did within the means available.

Just a cautionary note on the steel tubing though. Most commercially made steel tubing that is "consumer grade" is either cold formed or hot formed. Either process will result in residual stresses in the material, but cold forming is generally worse. Cold formed material is generally recognisable in that the steel is shiny and these is distinctive discoloration at the weld seam (oxidation).

It is for this reason that many fixture builders shy away from using any form of cold rolled steel in a product that requires accuracy. The key thing in all this, is any event that triggers release of the internal stress. This can be brought on by actions like applying rust remover/converter to an unpainted surface. Or sandblasting prior to painting.

Some people buck the trend by having the tubing normalized prior to working with it, but you may find that the warpage that results from normalizing makes subsequent use of the material difficult (no problem if it goes into a welded fabrication).

I know that in your case, budget dictated the use of the steel tubing and you accept the risks associated with it (and managed those risks with your ingenius assembly methods).

I would like a similar sized router and have procrastinated over how to build it, whereas you have a router that makes chips now. I think that is a significant point, although when I finally have my granite slab router done, it will be a nice conversation piece too... The difference is that I will be in my early 40's and I intend to machine stone on my unit (just early enough to finish my tombstone, some would say..).

Best of luck
Keith

Kammo1
07-23-2007, 10:27 AM
Hi Haydn, must say what a fantastic machine and its one I would be proud of. Do you do work for Chris May of Overwater Guitars ?? reason I ask is I did the show at the NIA in 1997 and I remember talking with a chap that worked for them and his name was Haydn like yours. I may have this mixed up but if it is you I would like to say Hi, my name is Laz and I had the small stand two blocks down from you and if I recall you were impressed with my yellow Yngwie Malmsteen guitar, anyway if it is you then its nice to see you and your work on this great forum CHEERS!!

Haydn
07-24-2007, 06:51 AM
not exactly cheap are they? I'm not sure if the cheaper tool is better but.. I can try it for starters and see if it works. I'm not sure how much I'll need one.. and if it goes dull and it looks like I'll be using one regularly, then I may buy a spoil board surfacing cutter.. we'll have to see..

Well done in finding one Jerry, I was going to suggest trying Trend USA, Trend cutting tools are europes largest, I get quite a bit from them, I see they now distribute in the US, I don't know if they carry the full range but could be worth finding out.

All the best

Haydn

Haydn
07-24-2007, 06:55 AM
Good looking machine!
What are you making with the machine; metal, wood, plastic?

Epoxy instead of welding is of my interest. Can you give me more information about epoxy? I am just a biginner of engineering.

Regards
TK-Y'hama

Hi TK,

I am maching 80% wood, some aluminium and some perspex. The epoxy techniques I used varied depending on what I was trying to achieve. I used Devcon Steel epoxy (slow set) for critical joints which gave plenty of time for alignment etc. I also used a quick cure epoxy for less critical joints. If you have any specific questions about what I did I'll try and answer, some of the points are covered in previous posts. Describing my methods in a general sense would be a little long winded!

Haydn

Haydn
07-24-2007, 07:02 AM
Haydn, great machine. Fun to see someone else that uses epoxi for lining. I do too. Always. :)
And yeah, the Madvac-CNC is a legendary machine made by the member Oneyaker, I think he made an impression on a lot of people with that build up. I must say you have a veeeery close to legendary thing coming here. Thumbs up!

I noticed you have made a crosslink on the gantry sides, did you notice flex?

Regards,
Sven

Hi Sven,

Thanks for the comments. I found the epoxy method very useful to me having limited engineering/machining capabilities.
Yes I did put a crosslink on the gantry, it was stable but as I had not envisaged being able to run the machine as fast as I can I put them in to limit any flex along x plane. Certainly has helped, bringing the mass of the gantry/z axis and spindle to a dead stop at speed is quite stressful, the inertia has to be dissipated somewhere and that will be through the frame.
In the future I may require more z clearance, if this happens I will replace the extruded ali uprights with steel. The extra mass will i'm sure not be a problem as I have plenty of torque. The rigidity can then be improved some more!

All the best

Haydn

Haydn
07-24-2007, 07:14 AM
Haydn

Just found this thread today and want to commend your workmanship and ingenuity in accomplishing what you did within the means available.

Just a cautionary note on the steel tubing though. Most commercially made steel tubing that is "consumer grade" is either cold formed or hot formed. Either process will result in residual stresses in the material, but cold forming is generally worse. Cold formed material is generally recognisable in that the steel is shiny and these is distinctive discoloration at the weld seam (oxidation).

It is for this reason that many fixture builders shy away from using any form of cold rolled steel in a product that requires accuracy. The key thing in all this, is any event that triggers release of the internal stress. This can be brought on by actions like applying rust remover/converter to an unpainted surface. Or sandblasting prior to painting.

Some people buck the trend by having the tubing normalized prior to working with it, but you may find that the warpage that results from normalizing makes subsequent use of the material difficult (no problem if it goes into a welded fabrication).

I know that in your case, budget dictated the use of the steel tubing and you accept the risks associated with it (and managed those risks with your ingenius assembly methods).

I would like a similar sized router and have procrastinated over how to build it, whereas you have a router that makes chips now. I think that is a significant point, although when I finally have my granite slab router done, it will be a nice conversation piece too... The difference is that I will be in my early 40's and I intend to machine stone on my unit (just early enough to finish my tombstone, some would say..).

Best of luck
Keith

Hi Keith,

Thanks for your interesting comments. I am aware of movement being inherent in steel tubing, but having limited resources and a need for the machine I found myself spending too much time thinking about it rather than ploughing on with building the machine. I think every system has it's negative points, even commercial machines, the decision is ultimately whether the outcome of your techinques will be within your requirements of accuracy and budget. Working with wood almost all the time I don't require 'engineering' tolerances, if I can get them thats a bonus. All my measuring and alignments were done as best as I could to the tolerance of the ballscrews I used, I don't see the need for me to go any tighter tolerance wise. I check frame alignment from time to time and so far all things look fine.

Good luck with granite bed, sounds interesting. If I was to rebuild my machine I would buy my friends old 8x4 surface table that he doesn't use and build it on that, wouldn't get it in my workshop without taking a door out and the missis would kill me!

Good luck

Haydn

Haydn
07-24-2007, 07:21 AM
Hi Haydn, must say what a fantastic machine and its one I would be proud of. Do you do work for Chris May of Overwater Guitars ?? reason I ask is I did the show at the NIA in 1997 and I remember talking with a chap that worked for them and his name was Haydn like yours. I may have this mixed up but if it is you I would like to say Hi, my name is Laz and I had the small stand two blocks down from you and if I recall you were impressed with my yellow Yngwie Malmsteen guitar, anyway if it is you then its nice to see you and your work on this great forum CHEERS!!

Hi Laz,

I think you are talking to the same man! I run the workshop for Overwater, concentrating mostly on custom work and new designs. I did do a couple of trade shows with Chris years ago but I stay clear of them now as thier not what they used to be. Should be working on an electric upright design for them later this year and possibly a new Progress4 model, we shall see. Can't remember the strat but I've played quite a few over the years now!
Thanks for the comments about my router!
Are you still doing musical things? Have you built a machine?

Regards

Haydn

bigbunny5
07-24-2007, 10:36 AM
Haydn :
Sorry to drag us off topic, but, Being that you work with High end Guitars maybe you have an answer that has evaded me. How do Custom Electronics guys letter their panels in a professional way? I'm a HUGE analog fan, and one of my weirdo Fascinations is to gut my 80's NAIM stereo system and Case mod it in to a more Analog 70's look maybe a wood cabinet and Black textured panels Kind like this Moog Replica (http://www.synthesizers.com/studio22.html#). I'm Guessing the lettering is Silk Screened on the panel, I can do that, but what kind of ink or paint for the base color and lettering?
When I have room and Gumption to build a Larger than desk top machine I'd like to do a lot of that kind of thing. My style bent is lost some where between late 60's England and 70's analog audio. I'm a huge fan of the use of natural wood with electronics. I'd love to figure out how to make my own professional looking Kustom panels :)
Thanks

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x128/bigbunny5/print_nobody_lg_300x406.jpg

Kammo1
07-24-2007, 10:57 AM
Hi Haydn, thanks for the reply. I know what you mean about the trade shows they are certainly not worth the money in relation to what you get back and at the end of the day you have to try to do a couple to keep in the public eye. I haven't done any since 2002 and like yourselves stay well clear of them, I still dabble with builds and repairs but not on a scale that I used to do, I also ghost build for John Birch Guitars and have been for the last 7 years so at least I keep my hand in the guitar builds and plus I enjoy it. I still have a regular job as I'm a Plumber have to admit I hate it but it keeps the wolves from the door as if you had to rely solely on the guitars to make you money you would starve to death which is why I now do it more for a leisure activity than a business. I am in the process of planning a DIY CNC so am resourcing all the info I can get and should hopefully starting one within the next few weeks. I have all my electronics ie steppers, driver,and power supply and a spiral saw which I picked up of e-bay so all that there is to do is build the CNC which I plan on making out of MDF and skate bearings approach as this to me is more of a learning curve and to see if all works out ok and also to understand how the machine works and then later on I could try and attempt to build something as refined as yours. The one thing I am struggling on and that is the software side of things but a forum member here callled freddean 2006 lives about a 40 mins drive from me and is willing to help me if I come a cropper he,he,he,he. Anyways Haydn I 'll stop rambling on now and hopefully will stay in touch and probably meet up some time as I would dearly love to see you again after all these years I think it was 1997 when I spoke to you CHEERS!! Laz aka Kammo1

Haydn
07-24-2007, 02:56 PM
Haydn :
Sorry to drag us off topic, but, Being that you work with High end Guitars maybe you have an answer that has evaded me. How do Custom Electronics guys letter their panels in a professional way? I'm a HUGE analog fan, and one of my weirdo Fascinations is to gut my 80's NAIM stereo system and Case mod it in to a more Analog 70's look maybe a wood cabinet and Black textured panels Kind like this Moog Replica (http://www.synthesizers.com/studio22.html#). I'm Guessing the lettering is Silk Screened on the panel, I can do that, but what kind of ink or paint for the base color and lettering?
When I have room and Gumption to build a Larger than desk top machine I'd like to do a lot of that kind of thing. My style bent is lost some where between late 60's England and 70's analog audio. I'm a huge fan of the use of natural wood with electronics. I'd love to figure out how to make my own professional looking Kustom panels :)
Thanks

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x128/bigbunny5/print_nobody_lg_300x406.jpg

Hmm, looks like the moog is silk screened, I have a friend who builds analogue synth units I think he silk screens his

http://www.oakleysound.com/projects.htmI

I don't know much about silk screening but as an alternative you have sent me back in time to my parents old and nearly forgotten hifi which was wooden framed with textured black panels (I have done this on metal by using a gloss or satin black base coat and then spraying a light overspray, almost splattery when the base coat is nearly dry-aerosols work best for this and I usually heat the metal in an oven and spray when it's still hot, I use plasticoat or rustoleum sprays), the lettering was engraved through the black to reveal shiny aluminium. I'd say pretty 70's! Maybe give it a try if you havent done so before, it can look pretty neat.

Haydn

bigbunny5
07-24-2007, 08:32 PM
Haydn, I know I keep Dragging us way off topic, but those synts of your friend's are just the coolest thing ever. I Unfortunately suffer from what most Road Guys (Electricians) have. The life long diseases of GAS (Gear Addiction Syndrome) and Stupid Fingers, with a touch of the tinny ear. Thus making me Love and long for all the OLD analog Audio equipment, but having no talent for the guitar, and not enough of an ear to do studio stuff :( I know the moment I acquired my G.A.S. it was at a Utopia Concert in the 70's, I remember being blown away by the Keyboard players MOOG, and all the kool analog effects! I remember getting home that night and wanting to learn to play guitar sooo badly and that's just what I did was learn it badly. I saw all that old gear as a way to something KOOL with my inner Geek. I remember spending hours litterly Hours coding MID songs on my Apple ][+ with an early MIDI card and a Roland Midi box. All running in to a Cheep KRAPPY Pevy amp and using stomp boxes to post processing effects :) I even had an old Echo-Plex with 8track tape, tape in it :)

Anyhow back on topic Nice machine Can we some pics of it in use? I'm dying to see that nice hardwood floor covered in Chips :) OBTW when I come to england to get parts I ordered 6 mounts ago, can I come see your shop, how about if I bring 10000 of my closest friends :) I'll even see if I can smuggle in some real beer from Shiner Texas :)

Haydn
07-25-2007, 04:34 AM
Haydn, I know I keep Dragging us way off topic, but those synts of your friend's are just the coolest thing ever. I Unfortunately suffer from what most Road Guys (Electricians) have. The life long diseases of GAS (Gear Addiction Syndrome) and Stupid Fingers, with a touch of the tinny ear. Thus making me Love and long for all the OLD analog Audio equipment, but having no talent for the guitar, and not enough of an ear to do studio stuff :( I know the moment I acquired my G.A.S. it was at a Utopia Concert in the 70's, I remember being blown away by the Keyboard players MOOG, and all the kool analog effects! I remember getting home that night and wanting to learn to play guitar sooo badly and that's just what I did was learn it badly. I saw all that old gear as a way to something KOOL with my inner Geek. I remember spending hours litterly Hours coding MID songs on my Apple ][+ with an early MIDI card and a Roland Midi box. All running in to a Cheep KRAPPY Pevy amp and using stomp boxes to post processing effects :) I even had an old Echo-Plex with 8track tape, tape in it :)

Anyhow back on topic Nice machine Can we some pics of it in use? I'm dying to see that nice hardwood floor covered in Chips :) OBTW when I come to england to get parts I ordered 6 mounts ago, can I come see your shop, how about if I bring 10000 of my closest friends :) I'll even see if I can smuggle in some real beer from Shiner Texas :)

Im not sure if Tony is making much in the way of synths at the moment, I havent seen him for a while but they are pretty cool. Did you see the youtube video, further up the posts? Maybe better than a pic of router in use. The floor is redwood, so not so hard wearing but a good coat of lacquer and its pretty tough.
Bring all your friends we can do a cnc gig to 10000 at the football club, not sure about the Texas beer though do you have crude on the rocks!? Guiness is close, I'll stick with that.
Here are a couple of pics of workshop when I bought it and when I had nearly finished renovating it. Still have a bit to do - machine is a distraction, maybe I can fix a paint brush on the gantry and write some......

Haydn

vroemm
07-25-2007, 05:15 AM
Haydn,

Nice movie !
Great router !
You can do fantastic stuff with it.
Was fun to watch.

Thanks.

Haydn
07-26-2007, 03:15 PM
Thanks Vroemm, had a look at the uhu wiki- looks interesting!

bigbunny5
07-26-2007, 06:03 PM
Im not sure if Tony is making much in the way of synths at the moment, I havent seen him for a while but they are pretty cool. Did you see the youtube video, further up the posts? Maybe better than a pic of router in use. The floor is redwood, so not so hard wearing but a good coat of lacquer and its pretty tough.
Bring all your friends we can do a cnc gig to 10000 at the football club, not sure about the Texas beer though do you have crude on the rocks!? Guiness is close, I'll stick with that.
Here are a couple of pics of workshop when I bought it and when I had nearly finished renovating it. Still have a bit to do - machine is a distraction, maybe I can fix a paint brush on the gantry and write some......

Haydn

Haydn,
Thanks for the lead on tony I emailed him and asked him some questions about fron panels, and he pointed me to where he get's his made, that answered all my questions :)

Looked at those videos and I must say if you build Guitars 1/2 as well as you build Routers Those must be HELL OF Guitars but in looking back for the links I saw that scorpion inlay again, and man o MAN JEBUZZZZ that looks nice. I always wished I could build nice guitars like that. OBTW It's a deal Looks like I might get to go to Afganistanfor 3-5 weeks and my post 2 week Vacation is Leaning hevy to 2 fun filled weeks in the UK looking for a Motorcycle:) So we better go catch a Football game before it dies in England. They tried to get football going in Kananiduh but it only lasted a few seasons. if anything I'd love to make it durring RUGBY season :) What I aught to do is to send you the hand grips off my Colts and get you to do some inlay work on them :) I'm telling you those scorpions were gorgious. and that shop is to die for. YOU don't even want to see the mess I call a shop and share with my sleeping Quarters :) do have a Question about the inlay, do you cut every thing flat then epoxy it in and sand it to match the covex shape of the finger board or do you do your inlay before shapeing the finger board? How do you polish out the mother of pearl? can you cut it with the CNC Router or doesit have to be sawn? What kind of epoxy would you use to afix Mother of Pearl to bone?
Ohh and one last thought IF IF IF i do get to take a vaction to the UK how far are you from Manchester? I realy want to go there again?

POLL Question: what did you have for Tea today ?

I've had a BAD BAD BAD Craving for Turkey Twizlers for the last year or so ever since the brittish foods shop closed :(

Drakkn
07-30-2007, 06:12 AM
I do have the g code but this is going to be offered as a custom option on the basses I build for the company I do work for so I can't really make it available. I hope you understand.

Thanks for the comments though!

Haydn

Hi Thanks for the response:wave: - I do understand re not letting the code out in the public domain - Do you have any gcode that you can let me take a look at - I also am a guitar maker these days.Its good fun but you can only just scrape a living unless you diversify a bit.Like your work - lets have some pictures of your basses.

Haydn
09-10-2007, 06:47 AM
As I've had a couple of people asking to see my work here is one of my own guitars and a custom 8 string bass I designed and built for a customer at Overwater. These are roughed out on a wadkin pin router and then finished by hand. I haven't tried doing a carved top on the cnc yet but will do soon. The flat top twin cut is the model being machined in the youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlGu51uqNgQ

Hope you like them!

To see more Overwater basses visit www.overwaterbasses.com
I'm responsible for the R&D of the Perception series, Expression, all the custom work and current design changes and updates, new models being worked on to be launched hopefully in the next few months.

Drakkn
09-10-2007, 12:18 PM
Very nice work Haydn - once production is up and running for me - I will put up some pictures of my work - generally seem to get lots of repair work and do not make many guitars as of the present moment in time.

Haydn
09-10-2007, 04:01 PM
Thanks for that, hope works out for you. Repairs are bread and butter, you just have to do them - though now I am a bit more selective. Acoustic instruments are my main passion which are naturally done by hand, the cnc will help me keep the electric side of my business going and take out some donkey work, freeing up time for building acoustic guitars etc.

Good luck!

Drakkn
09-10-2007, 08:16 PM
Thanks for that, hope works out for you. Repairs are bread and butter, you just have to do them - though now I am a bit more selective. Acoustic instruments are my main passion which are naturally done by hand, the cnc will help me keep the electric side of my business going and take out some donkey work, freeing up time for building acoustic guitars etc.

Good luck!

Wpuld love to make an acoustic guitar - never made one - suppose it is an all new ball game and huge learning curve.any help or info would be appreciated.

Haydn
11-12-2007, 09:24 PM
Hi All,

Been ages since I have been here. Anyway youtube did me favours and got me an upgrade of the motors I was using in exchange for a video for the www.homeshopcnc.com website. Now using the RHT34-740 motors which are great. Increased torque, better linearity.

In the video I do a carved top guitar, some fast profiling with artsoft quantum at 12m/min and a sign.

Take a look see what you think!

Haydn

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3_qdZB9iGhU&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3_qdZB9iGhU&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

DonW
11-13-2007, 09:42 PM
Haydn,

Great looking machine. I've been planning to build one for awhile now, and am still collecting parts and making decisions on ballscrews and motors. I'm going with the Gecko Vampires and will probably use the GRex as well.
Out of curiosity...I've been thinking about getting my ballscrews and motors from HomeShopCNC.com also. Did you consider the RS Series motors as well, and if so, why did you go with the standard Rex Steps over the RS Series? Based on the literature provided by HSCNC, the RS series seems a better product. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Don

Haydn
11-14-2007, 03:00 PM
Haydn,

Great looking machine. I've been planning to build one for awhile now, and am still collecting parts and making decisions on ballscrews and motors. I'm going with the Gecko Vampires and will probably use the GRex as well.
Out of curiosity...I've been thinking about getting my ballscrews and motors from HomeShopCNC.com also. Did you consider the RS Series motors as well, and if so, why did you go with the standard Rex Steps over the RS Series? Based on the literature provided by HSCNC, the RS series seems a better product. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Don

When I got my motors the RS series motors were not available. The Rex Steps are great value for money and for a few dollars more you get an improved version with the RS series (if at a reduced holding torque) so I think I'd go for them if bought now. I cant vouch for the RS motor as I haven't used them but if Rick says they are an improvement over the others then i'm sure they will do the job. Price wise very similar but with a reduction in torque rating RS600 ~ RHT740 priced about the same but 140oz/in rated torque difference. The G203V is very good, I have one as I accidentally killed a 201 very little motor heating (even with 201s these motors do not get very hot in my system). Just remember with the 203 that they are referenced to pc ground not +5V like other geckos, so if you use a breakout board bear this in mind. I use a Campbell board which doesn't have pc ground specific connections, I had to use the pc ground test point on the board.

Hope this is of some use.

Haydn

DonW
11-14-2007, 03:25 PM
Great information, thank you. I'm probably going to end up with the RS34-960's. Rick at HSCNC feels that they will have better holding torque for machining aluminum, which I will want to do to some small degree. I'll have two driving a 63" long gantry. Should be fun.
:)

What pitch are your ballscrews? You seem to be getting great performance, with nice fast rapids. I was curious about how fast those motors were actually turning.

Thanks...

Haydn
11-14-2007, 06:04 PM
Great information, thank you. I'm probably going to end up with the RS34-960's. Rick at HSCNC feels that they will have better holding torque for machining aluminum, which I will want to do to some small degree. I'll have two driving a 63" long gantry. Should be fun.
:)

What pitch are your ballscrews? You seem to be getting great performance, with nice fast rapids. I was curious about how fast those motors were actually turning.

Thanks...

X and Y are 10mm pitch, Z is 5mm pitch.
With pulse frequency set to 45kHz in mach the fastest available travel is 13500mm/min with a 10mm pitch screw and 10xmicrostepping. At 12m/min the motor would be doing 1200rpm. I don't run my machine this way in a normal working day, I don't think it would do the ballscrews/nuts much good! I get no whip of the screws but for me it's just unneccesary wear. I have rapid set at 8 to 10m/min typically.

DonW
11-14-2007, 06:44 PM
Ahhrg! You metric guys!
LOL

So one turn is 10mm travel and 5mm travel, right?

Cool. That gives me some point of comparison.

Thanks for the info! :)

Haydn
11-14-2007, 07:45 PM
Ahhrg! You metric guys!
LOL

So one turn is 10mm travel and 5mm travel, right?

Cool. That gives me some point of comparison.

Thanks for the info! :)

Sorry if it confuses!

Still makes me smile when I think about that Mars probe that ploughed into the surface at some ridiculous speed cause we'd done our calcs in metric and US did it imperial and someone used the wrong figures to plot it's position!

Edit: 10mm=0.3937007874015748031496062992126" :)

contactirfu
12-12-2007, 12:20 PM
Hi hayden,

Reading your thread inspired me to build my router similar to urs and the madvac, see my thread

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=378018#post378018

I just what to ask you that off late have you come across any bolts loosening up!

Thanks for motivation provided.

RGDS

Irfan

Sbthomas13
12-12-2007, 08:59 PM
I love your machine! It looks sturdy, clean, and professional, especially with that nice color scheme. I can't wait until I have the skills to build one these.

Haydn
12-13-2007, 04:28 PM
Hi hayden,

Reading your thread inspired me to build my router similar to urs and the madvac, see my thread

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=378018#post378018

I just what to ask you that off late have you come across any bolts loosening up!

Thanks for motivation provided.

RGDS

Irfan

Your build looks interesting Irfan, and i'm glad someone has gained some inspiration! As for the bolts I have none that have come loose at all. I have undone a few for modifications etc and they are hard as hell to get out, the steel epoxy did just what i wanted there! I have had no problems at all apart from killing a Gecko 201 through my own stupidity, I replaced this with a G203V which is a great bit of kit, does just what it says on the tin. The Y axis rails are about to be replaced (as they were a temporary measure) with a set of Hiwin profile rails and carriages, this should make a decent improvement (bearing shaft rails should not really be mounted the way I have them as all the load is on one side and leads to premature wear). Later I will add a high frequency spindle.
All said and done everything seems reliable, easy to maintain and problem free. I see from your build you have mounted your Y rails at the front, if this is a permanent rail setup I would consider using quality Nippon bearings that can take a load on one side, alternatively mount the rails top and bottom.

Good luck with the rest of the build!

Haydn

Haydn
12-13-2007, 04:40 PM
I love your machine! It looks sturdy, clean, and professional, especially with that nice color scheme. I can't wait until I have the skills to build one these.

Thanks, the years seem to fly by for me so i'm sure your chance will come sooner than you think!

contactirfu
12-14-2007, 11:52 AM
Your build looks interesting Irfan, and i'm glad someone has gained some inspiration! As for the bolts I have none that have come loose at all. I have undone a few for modifications etc and they are hard as hell to get out, the steel epoxy did just what i wanted there! I have had no problems at all apart from killing a Gecko 201 through my own stupidity, I replaced this with a G203V which is a great bit of kit, does just what it says on the tin. The Y axis rails are about to be replaced (as they were a temporary measure) with a set of Hiwin profile rails and carriages, this should make a decent improvement (bearing shaft rails should not really be mounted the way I have them as all the load is on one side and leads to premature wear). Later I will add a high frequency spindle.
All said and done everything seems reliable, easy to maintain and problem free. I see from your build you have mounted your Y rails at the front, if this is a permanent rail setup I would consider using quality Nippon bearings that can take a load on one side, alternatively mount the rails top and bottom.

Good luck with the rest of the build!

Haydn

Thanks hayden for your input, I will keep the Y rails as it is for now, I am intending to make the machine pay itself for the hiwin rails and slides later on.

meanwhile i just intend to finish up teh entire build asap and start making some money. Its a real drain on my resources.

Thanks for the inputs Hayden
RGDS
Irfan

Haydn
12-14-2007, 04:54 PM
I know exactly what you mean Irfan, thats largely why I didn't use rails on the Y to start with, I had a budget that was hard to stick to - investing in new ballscrews ate a fair chunk of that and ebay was not promising for the length of rails I wanted for the Y. Time saving and a bit of extra income makes the investment in profile rail for the Y possible for me know.

Good luck and I hope it works well for you.

Dougie085
12-16-2007, 10:04 PM
Just a quick question. I'm considering a steel machine now as I was originally thinking of doing an 80/20 aluminum machine. I think requested a quote for the metal needed and well... a steel one would be much cheaper. My question is what did you use to cut the steel? I don't want to have to invest in a plasma cutter just to build the mill hehe :) It seems that these steel ones can move MUCH faster then the aluminum ones I see. I've noticed the stronger/stiffer the material used to build these machines is the more efficient and faster they can travel. I guess that has a lot to do with vibrations and flexing.

contactirfu
12-16-2007, 10:11 PM
I use a dewalt chop saw, around 200USD.

Dougie085
12-16-2007, 10:13 PM
Did the blade last long enough to do all those cuts :)

contactirfu
12-16-2007, 10:16 PM
If u have had seen my machine build here

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46998&page=2

its like I have the first blade (abrasive wheel) winding up now after most of the machine is built.

For me its like less than 3 dollars for one chopsaw blade (abrasive wheel), that makes it very economical.

Dougie085
12-16-2007, 10:34 PM
How about drilling holes into it? I would imagine a regular drill would not work so well.

contactirfu
12-16-2007, 10:41 PM
I use a simple bench drill and a step drill bit for most. use HSS tapsets for tapping threads, use a carpenters tri-square and steel rules for marking, a centre punch before drilling, a black and decker hand drill for drilling straight on the router (non precision stuff ) All high tensile allen bolts (socket head cap screws) throughout for bolting.

Hope I did not miss anything,

and the angle grinder.

Dougie085
12-16-2007, 10:46 PM
How much do you think the steel would cost to build a 4x4 cutting area router? The aluminum was going to cost something like 1500-2 grand of course that was for a 8x4. What is the cutting area on yours?

contactirfu
12-16-2007, 10:51 PM
for my 4x2.5 machine, teh steel cost me around 300USD, also if u r goin in for a 4x8 machine, have you looked at www.mechmate.com - free plans available.

Hayden I hope I am not Hijacking your thread.

Dougie085
12-16-2007, 11:01 PM
Yeah I'm sorry just had a few questions.

Haydn
12-17-2007, 04:29 AM
Hi Dougie

Some steel I cut with a hacksaw, some with a bandsaw (at a local engineers) and some with a chop saw like Irfan said. Most of the joints in my build are not length accuracy dependant so a hacksaw was fine and a quick tidy up with a file. I recommend to not use a carpenters square for marking out, most carpenters squares are only vaguely accurate on one face, use an engineers square not too expensive and a good investment. The essential tools I used (a lot from ebay - saving a fortune) are

6" engineers square (bought new)
12" engineers square (bought new)
50" grade A engineers straight edge (ebay £40, saved about £400 there! I checked it on a surface table at a local engineers)
0.01mm finger dial gauge (mitutoyo new ebay)
0.1mm finger dial gauge (mitutoyo new ebay)
dial gauge magnetic base (bought new)
150mm digital verneer mitutoyo (ebay)
starite precision engineers level (ebay)
marking scrib
marking blue
center punch
decent tap and drill set

I spent less than £100 on steel, I saved a fortune by going to the steel stockholder and buying offcut lengths for a few £ here and there. Normally I would have had to have bought 3.6m or 7.2m lengths. Takes a bit longer to build as you may wait for the sizes you need to show up but I was in no hurry. I soon learned who worked which day at the stockholder as some people would give me a much better price than others (how much for that lot? ermm £15 - oh ok, I disappear with the steel, the £15 goes in back pocket for beer!).

I used a pillar drill and a cordless dewalt drill driver for the holes, a decent drill bit is what counts. Some holes were tapped with a machine tap in the cordless, the rest by hand you'll discover muscles in your arm and wrist that you never knew existed after a few hundred holes! You may have some problems drilling and tapping on the seam of box section steel, orientate your section to avoid this as much as you can.

Just my two cents worth and hope it's useful

Good luck

Haydn

Dougie085
12-17-2007, 04:42 AM
So saying my budget is ~2000 USD give or take a couple hundred. Do you think it's possible for me to build a steel machine with this? I would like at least a 4'x4' cutting area. I was planning on using high torque steppers even for the aluminum machine so that really wouldn't change too much. Probably 1260oz steppers with gecko drives. The bearings are what I'm a bit concerned about. The linear slide bearings are quite expensive and I haven't been able to find the right lengths on ebay yet. Do you think a V Bearing would work on these? Or maybe a pole bearing with some decent quality bearings? I'd really like to use the slide bearings so maybe I'll look more. I was originally going to do a 4'x8' table so maybe going 4' shorter will save enough to use the linear bearings. Going to reread over your thread a bit now see if I missed anything.

Haydn
12-17-2007, 05:24 AM
You maybe could do it for about $2K. I think the bearings are down to what you can achieve on your budget. You could use round bearing shaft (like my Y) but you would need to fully support it and orientate them so the load is distributed evenly. Ebay is getting thin on the ground for cnc parts. Try
http://www.pro.com.sg/Z-HTM/LM-Guide.htm he has used rails and bearings etc
Take a look at www.larkencnc.com they use bearing shaft on their machines. An 8x4 machine would cost $1K+ for slides then you need ballscrews etc so that would be your budget gone. You could use V bearings, I never have so cant advise you there. I'd say what you use depends on what you expect to get out of the machine - engineering tolerances or woodworking tolerances, in that sense don't buy what you don't need unless the extra spend is worth it in the long run, my Y as point of note - I couldn't find ebay rails for it and couldn't afford new at the time, I built it so I could upgrade to rails as funds for rails became available, I have ordered some. You could save a bit on steppers you may not need to go that big maybe 960oz (a bigger stepper can take longer to accelerate so poorer performance) but that depends on the mass of your gantry/load you want to move. If you go the lead screw route maybe use the bigger motors as lead screws are typically about 30% efficient compared to a ball screw at about 90% so you may need to consider losses in your system.
My machine cost me £1800-2000 so $3500-$4000, you could do it for less than me as you have a lot more suppliers in the US and a lot more ebay items which people will not ship to the UK. If you can get a pair of rails for whichever axis at a decent price buy them and then you started, thats what I did (I remember telling myself "**** i'm committed now!").
A note on second hand rails though, if they have been used in an orientation different to how you intend using them they may not be as smooth as you hoped!

Hope this is of some use!

contactirfu
12-17-2007, 10:56 PM
hayden, kindly post the pictures of the eng squares you have or the link from where you bought them.

I need to know the difference b/w the carpenters square and the Engineers ! suppliers here dont undersand what the difference it makes and just blurt that a square is a square. what ever u buy.

It will of great help to me to get the right ones thru showing thm some pictures at least.

RGDS
Irfan

Haydn
12-18-2007, 05:55 AM
Here is a picture of squares similar to mine. Mine are by Moore and Wright in the UK, you should be able to pick up these from any engineers supplies from many manufacturers, I bought mine in my local engineering supplies shop. Good makes are graded, Grade A being the most accurate and expensive, unbranded squares often do not have any indication of their tolerances, some are good some are bad, I have one I bought years ago for setting the fence on my planer - it was out by 0.5-0.75mm over 150mm length took me a day to work out why nothing would fit together, I use it as a small hammer now!
(nuts)

The blades are usually thicker than a joiners square which makes it easier to run a dial gauge along when setting out.

contactirfu
12-18-2007, 12:54 PM
Ah, got it!

my carpenter square looks exactly like those just itis black and probably way out of accuracy.will try to post pictures over week end.

Thanks again for your valuable inputs hayden.

jrace2718
02-14-2008, 09:12 PM
Haydn,

Your machine is fantastic. I am starting one myself and I had a couple questions:

1) With your X being driven from the middle as opposed to the sides with 2 screws, do ever get any racking if taking a big cut? If you did it over, would you drive X with 2 screws?

2) Do you have any problems with dust on your X rails and bearings?

Thanks!

Haydn
02-16-2008, 03:19 PM
Haydn,

Your machine is fantastic. I am starting one myself and I had a couple questions:

1) With your X being driven from the middle as opposed to the sides with 2 screws, do ever get any racking if taking a big cut? If you did it over, would you drive X with 2 screws?

2) Do you have any problems with dust on your X rails and bearings?

Thanks!

Machine has been running for a year now and I have had no problems. I havent noticed any crabbing/racking I doubt very much I would consider driving with two screws. I have seen plenty 8x4 maachines with one central screw. The second screw can induce as many problems as it tries to solve.

All my bearings are dust sealed with wipers etc. I clean them off with a compressor and vac at the end of the day. I will be boxing in the x screw when I re do the gantry, I have new profile rail for the y axis. I have decided to lower the height of the gantry as I don't need 6" travel in z, and add a little more mass and stiffness.

Hope this is of use

Haydn

Haydn
04-05-2008, 05:56 PM
After a few months of saying i'm going to fit new profile rails to the gantry, I have decided to beef the whole thing up. I strapped another 35kg of steel to the gantry as it is and it still ran absolutely fine, so I will be rebuilding it and adding more mass. If anyone is interested in the epoxy technique I used and wants some kind of pictorial construction of the new gantry I will see what I can do. I have already epoxied the new beams for mounting the rails. I've increased the size and length of these from 60x40mm to 80x40mm with 4mm wall.

Haydn

contactirfu
04-05-2008, 11:45 PM
Hi Hayden,

Nice to hear that u are going in for that upgrade!, I am interested and so are many others who might come by this thread, to see hoe u epoxied the steel! Pls do post the pictures and if u have a video then youtube it.

RGDS
Irfan

pumelloman
04-06-2008, 01:26 AM
Hi Hayden,

I've been lurking around your thread for some time now, and built a Solsylva 25x37 Router. I'm mostly building a CNC for the education, as I am an engineering student, rather than for the actual CNC itself. So I'm starting to think about building a machine out of steel. I have access though to a milling machine, and I live in Canada so shipping from the US isn't as crazy. But I still plan on doing something similar to your build, using epoxy instead of welding.

I guess I will be going through your thread very carefully, and I will definitely follow through on your suggestions for the tools. I mostly have Habor Freight/Princess Auto tools at the moment, so I will go around an acquire the tools that you listed before.

If you could, I am really interested on what epoxy you used, please post your technique for epoxying ^^

Haydn
04-06-2008, 06:35 PM
I used two different epoxies. A high spec engineering steel epoxy was used for critical joints, branded as Devcon in the UK, this is a slow setting epoxy - 16hr cure time (they also do liquid steel and fast cure epoxies). I use this for joints that need specific alignment that can't be done in 5mins such as the beams that the x rails are mounted on. I use a cheaper general purpose steel epoxy for general joints and for mounting the rails on, this is made by Unibond and is called Metal Repair for Good in the UK. This cures in 10-15mins is easy to work and has good compressive strength. Neither of the epoxy steels contract as they cure, this is very important for obvious reasons.

Devcon is available in the US

http://www.devcon.com/products/products.cfm?brandid=1&catid=2

I use Steel Putty (A) and may be using Steel Liquid (B) in the new gantry. The steel liquid can be cast and is recommended for levelling machinary surfaces etc.

Haydn

Haydn
07-11-2008, 07:33 AM
Back from some time away from here as I've been a bit busy. Haven't done much with the new gantry as I haven't had time. I'll get round to that asap. Just got married too. The woman who was making our rings decided she couldn't do them anymore - three weeks before the day! Decided to make my own with the cnc. Came out a treat, so here thay are. Made in white gold and machined using a 0.2mm dia tapered ball nose cutter. Machined flat and then rolled into rings and joined. Look better in reality than in the pics.

H

contactirfu
07-11-2008, 10:22 AM
COngrats on your marriage to karen -

Have a good and beautiful life ahead!

now your wife will always have a softer heart on your cnc hobby!

Enjoy!

RGDS
Irfan

CNC Rocks
07-30-2008, 10:43 AM
Hello Haydn. :)

Can you post some information about the work envelope and the footprint of your cnc router please?

Thank you.

Haydn
07-30-2008, 04:56 PM
The router has a footprint of approx 1160mm x 1700mm. x travel is 1280mm, y 880mm, z 150mm. The footprint includes the length of motors. These are not exact figures as i'm not near the machine but pretty close.

H

Jason Marsha
07-31-2008, 07:03 AM
Congrats Hayden,
The rings look really good, I am sure your wife is pleased with the results. Since the cnc played such an important role then I suppose you will now have free reign when you want to upgrade.

Jason

CNC Rocks
07-31-2008, 12:24 PM
Hello again Haydn.

Thank you for the information about your router. :)

In my first post in this thread I forgot to mention that I think your router looks amazing and I like the clean look of the router. Nice work! :cheers:

Keep up the good work! :)

edoggy
09-03-2008, 08:56 PM
I would like to upgrade my wooden CNC Router. Do you have any available measured drawings or any information regarding your Machine? I would greatly appreciate. Thanks

snoopy27
09-04-2008, 07:39 PM
Been having a look around the zone for a while now and decided many moons ago to give it a go. Well, after accumulating gear for a while my machine is nearly finished (thank god I hear her indoors scream!). The frame is all steel, no welds, every joint is steel epoxied, bolted and pinned, takes longer than welding but my frame is within the tolerances of my ball screws (approx 0.01mm/300mm) and isn't stressed at all.
I intend putting up some info on how I built it if anyone is interested. I only have to wire it up, fix a few cover plates on (y axis ballscrew mounts etc). Parts of the gantry and all of the z axis were made in aluminium. The z axis parts and motor mounts were made manually on the machine. I still have to make a mount for the spindle.
I designed the controller for my needs, based on Geckos and a Campbell breakout board. This is all done bar limit switch connections and my external e stop (ie on the router).

If anyone is interested i'll start putting info up and more pics.

Nearly smiling :wave:

Looks like a very clean build. I would like to see more details whenever you can find the time to post them. Very Nice!

Snoopy27

Haydn
09-07-2008, 06:51 PM
I would like to upgrade my wooden CNC Router. Do you have any available measured drawings or any information regarding your Machine? I would greatly appreciate. Thanks

No drawings available sorry. What info are you looking for?

H

Haydn
09-07-2008, 06:52 PM
Looks like a very clean build. I would like to see more details whenever you can find the time to post them. Very Nice!

Snoopy27


Thanks, what details are you looking for? I'll see what I can do.

H

contactirfu
09-25-2008, 08:42 AM
hayden, what are the acceleration setting on your axis (in mach motor tuning)

My machine jerks a lot, I am assuming I have set high accln settings.

Thanks in Advance!

Irfan

Haydn
09-29-2008, 06:01 PM
hayden, what are the acceleration setting on your axis (in mach motor tuning)

My machine jerks a lot, I am assuming I have set high accln settings.

Thanks in Advance!

Irfan

Hi Irfan,

Acceleration settings will depend on many variables, motor type, supply voltage machine inertia etc. I can tell you that my every day mach profile has rapids set to 6800mm/min and acceleration of 900mm/s/s. If you are not getting smooth motion then you must run the mach driver test. Also I advise you to try and run the machine with Mach 2 as well. Mach 3 is far more pc hungry than mach 2. I had jerky motion when I initially ran my machine, the solution was a different pc to get it to run well with mach 3. I also have the xp services optimised for mach, you can find a list of these on the mach website. My mach driver test shows a totally straight line with a few peaks and troughs only 1 or 2 pixels high.

If your accel was too high you would just stall the motor through missing steps. Sounds to me like you probably have a poor pulse stream.

H

contactirfu
09-30-2008, 07:17 PM
Hi Hayden,

Thanks for your inputs - will work on it today.

I have also 256MB RAM on my controller PC, I will try replacing with 512MB. I had chkd the driver test before and it had looked good, i will try running it again.

RGDS
Irfan

Haydn
02-13-2009, 03:20 PM
I have finally made a start on the new gantry (I have had new rails for it for nearly a year now)! which is being done to accomodate Hiwin linear rails instead of the bearing shaft and to make it more rigid. Just been too busy to afford any time for the modifications. Never envisaged getting the sort of performance out of the router that I do so its time to beef it up to allow for this. I have taken some pics of my process of epoxy coating the mating surfaces of steel box. If anyone is interested I can edit these and put them up. I also have a new idea for extraction which I hope to do include as well.

Haydn

contactirfu
02-13-2009, 10:35 PM
Hayden - welcome back - and as usual very eager to see whats going on with ur router,

RGDS
Irfan

Oldmanandhistoy
02-15-2009, 09:01 PM
I have taken some pics of my process of epoxy coating the mating surfaces of steel box. If anyone is interested I can edit these and put them up.

Yes please :)

John

Kammo1
02-17-2009, 01:24 PM
HI all This is my first post. With the help of friends at work I built my cnc. It has been a long year in getting it perfected . My question is right now i am using a variable speed drill and I would like to know what would be better to use.I can make the holder for anything on the z axis.

Seriously bro you are using a drill as a cutting spindle!!!!!!!!!!!! sounds like a bad idea to me. I have seen Harbor Freight sell laminate trimmers for $20 you know the orange coloured ones surely this is a bargain right?? Dude before you do any damage to yourself or the machine get one of these as its better than a drill surely......... :)

Haydn
02-17-2009, 04:31 PM
I will try and get epoxy pics together tonight?!

Haydn
02-17-2009, 08:41 PM
Ok, I have some pics together so this is the epoxy technique that I used.
First you need to find a flat table to work off, this could be a surface table, or a machine table of some sort (a mill bed maybe). I managed to get access to an 8x4 surface table at a local engineers shop, lucky me! You need to convince the owner that you are not going to dent, scratch, chip or cover it in goo. Tell them what you are doing, they may get interested and let you get on with it, thats what happened for me.

In this explanation I am coating up the reverse side of the gantry uprights. Once these are flat I can do the mating surface pads for the Y rail beams using this surface as a datum.

Clean the table before you start and carefully roll out a sheet of cling film trying not to trap much air under it. A paint roller is ok for getting out or moving air pockets away from where you want to take the cast of the surface table.

Have your steel ready prepared, cleaned and degreased all over. I also wire brush the surface to be coated using a brush wheel in a drill.

Spray mold release agent over the cling film. You shouldn't need much as the steel epoxy doesn't adhere to the cling well but it certainly makes taking the cast off the bed a lot easier.

Mix the steel epoxy to whatever the manufacturer recommends. Be generous with quantity - if you mix too little to coat your part there is a fair chance it will be going off by the time you mix another batch (unless you use a slow cure epoxy) and you will have to start over and clean the steel again!
Be sure to use an epoxy steel that doesn't contract upon curing- check the data sheet.

Coat the steel fairly generously, apply more in the middle of the beam so it can squeeze out the edges ensuring total coverage. Work quickly but don't panic!

Press the coated face onto the cling covered table and wiggle it to work out as much air as possible. You can use a square against a vertical edge for approximate squareness and tap the edges to square it - like laying a brick. I only use opposite faces in my machine so the side squareness isn't important (apart from my x axis rail beams). Mop up the squeeze out using a spatula type tool, try not to tear the cling.

Enjoy the blissful aroma of curing epoxy and marvel at the strange shapes appearing on the walls! Ventilation is a good idea.

When the epoxy is dry (check the waste from the squeeze out) peel the part off the bed. It may take some persuasion depending on how long your beam is.

Check the surface with a good straight edge. Any major bubbles may need filling if they are where a joint is to be made. File the edges to make a smooth edge and thats it done.

With cnc many things come in pairs so, if you need two the same do them together and check them against each other face to face. They should be perfect.

If you have limited use of a flat surface to cast off then I suggest getting a piece of steel bigger than anything you need to use and making that into a mini surface table so you can do the rest in your own shop. Make sure its a good cast and fill all gaps/holes and clean up with 600grit on a block, you guessed a block made flat using an epoxy cast of the table.

For large parts try doing the casting on cold days if you are using a fast cure epoxy, it gives you more work time. This is how I did my x beams for the rails and also the beams making up the bed of the router. The router bed was preassembled as close to square as I could get, coated up as above and lowered onto the surface table, you need a big surface table to do this!

I'll go through the other side of these uprights next time, that is the pads that the Y rail beams will be fixed to.

Haydn

contactirfu
02-20-2009, 01:04 PM
thats really a nice report of the work haydn - looking forward for more :)

Have fun

RGDS
IRfan

Oldmanandhistoy
02-20-2009, 01:19 PM
Thank you very much Haydn for the write up it’s very much appreciated :)

Regards,
John

gixi
03-08-2009, 08:24 PM
Haydn is there a reason you did't chose PMDX-122 ? I ask you these because I'm close to start building my control box... And is hard to chose between Campbell and PMDX.
Thank you,
Marius

Haydn
03-11-2009, 08:08 AM
Hi Marius,

No reason at all. I knew of people using the campbell board with success so thats why I chose it. Also has facility for triggering more than one relay ie spindle and vac. Not sure if the pmdx does as I don't know it, but have heard good things about it.

gixi
03-16-2009, 06:14 AM
I was also curios to use BoB Campbell but it takes to long to get a quote for transport (at this moment still no answer... :confused:). Now I'm building a MechMate (great people on that site) and control box is the next step so I place a order at PMDX. Maybe next time Campbell will my suplier because MadVac design its the next step.

Thanks for the reply,
Marius

Haydn
07-14-2009, 03:22 PM
One day I will find the time to finish the new gantry, possible window ahead! In the meantime I have added some steel weights to the uprights as I have found that on the odd ocassion a resonant spot is hit which is enough to stall a motor. Had the weights on for months now and never missed a beat.

contactirfu
07-15-2009, 06:36 AM
I have added some steel weights to the uprights as I have found that on the odd ocassion a resonant spot is hit which is enough to stall a motor. Had the weights on for months now and never missed a beat.

could you add a pic of what you are describing??

Haydn
07-15-2009, 07:17 AM
could you add a pic of what you are describing??

Cant really do that as you can't see them. I clamped an additional 40kg of steel to the gantry to see how it performed and there was a vast improvement in the overall running of the machine. So i decided to add more mass permanently. The uprights of the gantry are hollow and basically filled with steel swarf/chippings from a local engineering firm. The new gantry weighs in at about 80kg, about the same as my current one with all the extra temporary steel strapped to it.

hawkmoon77
08-28-2009, 03:06 PM
I appreciate the time you put into documenting your build and am using it as a guide for my own construction. I had two questions for you. The first is, how are the sides of your gantry (the gantry uprights) connected to the X rails? See attached picture. What are the dimensions of the steel you went with to replace the aluminum?

The second question is more theoretical. I like your "casting of a surface table" technique. I do not have access to such a table. I was wondering if you (or anyone else for that matter) could think of alternatives. For example, would thick glass work? What about granite countertops? I wonder if they have the required tolerances to cast a flat/smooth surface.

Also, I wonder if you (or anyone else) have ideas for adjustable feet that do not introduce wobble. I see (in the attached picture) the modification you made to the machine legs and the floor. In your experience, is there any chance of adjustable feet, or should I just give up on that idea completely?

Lastly, can you offer some advice on ballscrews. My machine will be similar in size and weight to yours. I have the choice between 16, 20 and 25mm diameter ballscrews, with either a 5mm or 10mm lead. I was thinking 16mm diam, 5mm lead on the z axis, and 25mm diam, 5mm lead on the x and y axis. I noticed that you did 10mm lead on your x and y. I just can't make up my mind and thought I'd ask for your advice.

Thanks.

Benonymous
09-15-2009, 01:58 AM
I'd think a solid granite kitchen top might be flat enough. The best way to find out is with a decent straight-edge and a set of feeler gauges.

Fortunately I have access to a surface table and my friend who works at the engineering shop is checking some RHS steel for me to see if the cold formed section I want to use in my machine is flat enough without some sort of milling/grinding to do the job for my machine bed. He's gong to lay the steel on the surface table and check it with feelers.

I'll add the results of these experiments to my build log when I start it.

hawkmoon77
09-15-2009, 09:52 AM
I'd think a solid granite kitchen top might be flat enough. The best way to find out is with a decent straight-edge and a set of feeler gauges.

Fortunately I have access to a surface table and my friend who works at the engineering shop is checking some RHS steel for me to see if the cold formed section I want to use in my machine is flat enough without some sort of milling/grinding to do the job for my machine bed. He's gong to lay the steel on the surface table and check it with feelers.

I'll add the results of these experiments to my build log when I start it.


I have a ground straight edge, and have been checking any surface I can find. Granite seems to bow a lot when installed on an uneven surface, so i've seen mixed results. I was hoping a Corian surface would be good, but too wavy. The best I've seen is a coffee table that had 1/2 inch thick glass on it. It was very flat. it had a small bow in the center but that is because it was unsopprted there. I am thinking of stopping by a glass shop and buying some 3/4 inch plate glass as a surface table. Certainly not appropriate for machine work, but seems like it would be great for the epoxy casting technique.

harryn
09-15-2009, 02:05 PM
Hayden did an exceptional job using the casting technique, but there is also another path - self leveling epoxy. This is not just normal epoxy allowed to flow out, but in addition has special additives that make it really flow out flat.

I think you will be hard pressed to achieve a flatter surface in a DIY project than with self leveling epoxy.

There are several suppliers out there, but you can search on my posts or an on-line search engine and some suppliers will come up. It is often used in machine bases and to make very flat surface plates to set up race cars at specialty shops.