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View Full Version : Problem Omni 1218 One year later. Broken Spindle



Coyotey
02-13-2016, 06:20 AM
I bought a 1218 router from Jack at Omni just under a year ago. It has a dsp controller and a HDK 3.5KW air-cooled spindle.

My experience upon arrival:

It arrived on time and undamaged.

The machine, the control cabinet and its components were not grounded.
The main power cable was under sized. It,s size was 2.5m2. This is far below the requirement for a machine that consumes 4.5kw. The green and yellow grounding wire inside the power cord was just cut off.
All of this was easy enough to fix but it was an unexpected cost none the less.

Despite specifying that the machine was to be deliverred to my door, extra unexpected shipping costs came. I was only expecting to pay the local import tax in addition. The problem boiled down to that the price Omni was quoted for the truck which was to deliver the machine from the port to my workshop. The truck they gave a price for was too small. An extra 600usd out of pocket unexpectedly.
Many explanations came about this telling me that it's all my fault. Despite having everything spelled out clearly in writing. I just gave up and swallowed the irritation.

So here is the other side of the coin: I love this machine! This thing is built like a rock and I have never had any problems of any kind despite it running almost constantly and being driven hard. Great machine!

So now (ofcourse in the middle of Chinese New Year) the collett nut cross-threaded. The thread on the spindle got eaten up good. This stopped production and put many orders on hold. I took off the spindle and took it apart as far as I could with tools at hand.

Here's my question: can the center shaft that holds the bearings be replaced, or do I get a new spindle? If I get the exact same spindle...is it just plug and play? Or do I need to reprogram the dsp controller? IF I choose another spindle I would need to reprogram the controller. So...can I do this programming myself, or is it so complicared that a technician has to do it? Yes this is a newby question but I really need help to get up and running asap.

I hope Jack replies on Monday and that he can get parts quick!!

Coyotey
02-13-2016, 11:53 AM
I bought a 1218 router from Jack at Omni just under a year ago. It has a dsp controller and a HDK 3.5KW air-cooled spindle.

My experience upon arrival:

It arrived on time and undamaged.

The machine, the control cabinet and its components were not grounded.
The main power cable was under sized. It,s size was 2.5m2. This is far below the requirement for a machine that consumes 4.5kw. The green and yellow grounding wire inside the power cord was just cut off.
All of this was easy enough to fix but it was an unexpected cost none the less.

Despite specifying that the machine was to be deliverred to my door, extra unexpected shipping costs came. I was only expecting to pay the local import tax in addition. The problem boiled down to that the price Omni was quoted for the truck which was to deliver the machine from the port to my workshop. The truck they gave a price for was too small. An extra 600usd out of pocket unexpectedly.
Many explanations came about this telling me that it's all my fault. Despite having everything spelled out clearly in writing. I just gave up and swallowed the irritation.

So here is the other side of the coin: I love this machine! This thing is built like a rock and I have never had any problems of any kind despite it running almost constantly and being driven hard. Great machine!

So now (ofcourse in the middle of Chinese New Year) the collett nut cross-threaded. The thread on the spindle got eaten up good. This stopped production and put many orders on hold. I took off the spindle and took it apart as far as I could with tools at hand.

Here's my question: can the center shaft that holds the bearings be replaced, or do I get a new spindle? If I get the exact same spindle...is it just plug and play? Or do I need to reprogram the dsp controller? IF I choose another spindle I would need to reprogram the controller. So...can I do this programming myself, or is it so complicared that a technician has to do it? Yes this is a newby question but I really need help to get up and running asap.

I hope Jack replies on Monday and that he can get parts quick!!



A little addition to what I wrote earlier...It looks like Omni has addressed the grounding and wiring issues since our last dealings. They now specify this on their site. Great!
All in all I'm a happy customer. In fact I intend to place an order with Omni for my second machine later this year. This time a 1325 double spindle machine. My business is growing thanks to the first machine.

Now we'll see how their after-sales service is. Hopefully I will report back with a smile shortly.

Coyotey
02-15-2016, 06:49 AM
Just a quick update about my first real after-sales need.

Omni responded on the first day back from the Chinese New-Year holiday. GREAT!!

I was told that I should not have disassembled the spindle, and that as a result I will perhaps need to replace the entire spindle. I find this puzzling...does the spindle not have to be disassembled to, say, change the bearings? A local electro engine service shop will help me get everything back together again and balance the spindle. It should be possible for me to just order the main center shaft? Keeping my fingers crossed on that one! Besides, I need everything to be deliverred lightning fast by DHL and the whole spindle would weigh a ton!

Waiting now for reply form Omni. I hate the quiet in the workshop.

victorofga
02-15-2016, 08:22 AM
peter


it is a common misunderstanding......
Chinese in most case ""free shipping""" means to the closest ""border"" means a bonded warehouse, close to you...

for me, it was 120 mile.. from china the shipping was 800 to this warehouse, the 120 mile shipping costed 500 as a friendly price..

for the spindle

while there are option to fix... I wouldn't suggest, due to very questionable result..

a new rotor or call shaft from the spindle manuf.. not from Omni..


congrats for growing biz...

Coyotey
02-16-2016, 06:01 AM
I can't find the manufacturer!! The brand is HDK and when I try to go to the internett site that is written on the spindle label - I hit a dead end. Then I search by name - only one hit even mentioning this spindle, and they they only sell the spindle. They helped me with a link to another company who lists it on their site, and no reply!

Why in the world was I sold a spindle from a company that does not exist and for which parts seem impossible to find?? And Omni is taking their time..."maybe an answer tomorrow".

Going into the second week of stopped production.
Here's the spindle:
308184
308186

gfacer
02-16-2016, 06:20 PM
Buy a new spindle first, fix this spindle later if you want to be up and running faster. That's what you need to expect on Chinese stuff. We made sure our spindle was true HSD (Italian), but confirming serial numbers with their offices...more expensive, but documentation and repair ability is one reason for that.

Truthfully, may not be worth fixing if its a broken shaft, but I don't know a)the kw of the unit and b) maybe you or omni can find the replacement part and get lucky.

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gfacer2
02-17-2016, 05:52 PM
http://www.jshuadiao.com/cp/28.html This looks like the right guys...

Coyotey
02-17-2016, 05:53 PM
I have come to the same conclusion after hitting so many dead ends and dummy companies on my search to find parts. Frankly I have no idea where my spindle originated from. The company name on the spindle does not exist. Like Victor said, it's probably a knock-off bought off the street with fake labeling. I also should have known better than to expect after-sales support or any ability to build any kind of relationship which might induce me to buy my next machine from them. To be honest, I'll probably go to Taney just to get this taste out of my mouth. Don't get me wrong, the machine is great and these episodes force me to learn more about my machine. The rub is just getting old...they quote me prices more than double what things are worth, while another claims that the spindle weighs way more than it really does to cash in on higher shipping costs. I guess they saw me coming a mile away needing parts FAST. ********! Again...I got great value for money with my initial purchase, but their distasteful practices makes me wonder how some of these companies survive at all. A real cespool. Ok enough ranting..

So I found a spindle with the exact same casing, plug, mounting holes etc, but it's 3 kw. The old one was 3.7kw. The guy I'm buying it from assures me that it will be plug and play, saying that no changes need be made because it's practically the same motor...is this true?? Don't I have to adjust the power parameter in my Fuling Inverter?

Anyone know?

Coyotey
02-17-2016, 05:55 PM
http://www.jshuadiao.com/cp/28.html This looks like the right guys...

Naw it isn't them (I've talked to them) looks close but no cigar...thanks for trying to help though!

gfacer2
02-17-2016, 06:10 PM
Naw it isn't them (I've talked to them) looks close but no cigar...

Hmm - well if its not them, its a knock off of them. I still bet it is them but maybe some custom unit that isn't on their list. HSD has plenty of that too. My spindle was not the one spec'd on my PO but it is essentially identical but with another part number. But that other part number (ie my spindle) was not listed on any HSD literature. It was confirmed eventually by HSD italy as a spindle from the Chinese subsidiary with the right specs.

I'd agree with the get the replacement then work on the repair. You might even get a used brand name spindle that you can repair more easily. Our HSD's have lasted a really really long time without repairs.

gfacer2
02-17-2016, 06:22 PM
BTW - I'm no electrical engineer but I think plug and play will work - maybe not perfectly but good enough. My old CNC controller had the spindle speed set at (for example) 13000 rpm. The VFD showed about 20,000 (I don't have a tach so I'm not sure what it really was). I just worked around it by going by the VFD and working backwards. So I think as long as your VFD can handle the spindle, you should be able to get running pretty quick and then worry about dialing it in on the DSP system if you care enough. It would be worth while to get a tachometer though. Especially if the volts and amps in are the same.

Coyotey
02-17-2016, 06:25 PM
Hmm - well if its not them, its a knock off of them. I still bet it is them but maybe some custom unit that isn't on their list. HSD has plenty of that too. My spindle was not the one spec'd on my PO but it is essentially identical but with another part number. But that other part number (ie my spindle) was not listed on any HSD literature. It was confirmed eventually by HSD italy as a spindle from the Chinese subsidiary with the right specs.

I'd agree with the get the replacement then work on the repair. You might even get a used brand name spindle that you can repair more easily. Our HSD's have lasted a really really long time without repairs.

I looked at the Italian spindles but the price was prohibitive unfortunately. I'm but a humble woodpecker;) The one I had seemed solid enough until i messed ut up. Oh well...here goes another Chinese escapade...I feel like I get mugged every time I talk to one of those swindlers over there.

So...does anyone know about the necessary parameter adjustments in the inverter going from 3.7 to 3 kw?

victorofga
02-17-2016, 09:17 PM
the main question if the original was really 3.7 kw...

they might not ""knockoff"" , they just simply put another sticker on so customer going back to them for another spindle..
for me, not looking possible if a company can manufacture that spindle, and they can not put on a real aluminum plate..

those Italian spindles possible very great quality ...
but their prices just simply cant be justified for small shops..

for a factory, wher technicians preparing every job, and operators keep running trough on shift... there probably very reasonable..

but for me, I just keep extra spindle of the cheapest ... im using mine since 2 years ago..
I purchased a 2.2 kw but after testing and running a couple days, I just put back the old one..

it still run quietly and works great.. when it fail, I wont fix or replace bearings.. the thread and the cone will be worn anyway.. so new bearing wont help really..

victorofga
02-17-2016, 09:28 PM
one simple test you could make... when new motor is at your shop, then turn on first the old, and measure current with clamp
then plug in the new motor and measure that too..

if current is close within a couple percent then they are same..

gfacer
02-17-2016, 11:30 PM
the main question if the original was really 3.7 kw...

they might not ""knockoff"" , they just simply put another sticker on so customer going back to them for another spindle..
for me, not looking possible if a company can manufacture that spindle, and they can not put on a real aluminum plate..

those Italian spindles possible very great quality ...
but their prices just simply cant be justified for small shops..

for a factory, wher technicians preparing every job, and operators keep running trough on shift... there probably very reasonable..

but for me, I just keep extra spindle of the cheapest ... im using mine since 2 years ago..
I purchased a 2.2 kw but after testing and running a couple days, I just put back the old one..

it still run quietly and works great.. when it fail, I wont fix or replace bearings.. the thread and the cone will be worn anyway.. so new bearing wont help really..
3.9kw spindle, ceramic bearings, 15 years of at least 20hours per week use. Seeing as how it is a probably (now) a 4k us spindle at most, that's only about $275 a year. Higher up front costs for sure though, but easily made up with less downtime.

But, as you point out, having a spare is the middle ground.

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victorofga
02-18-2016, 02:41 AM
my spindle runs since 3 years ...
new spindle about 150.....
it don't looking as it try to fail...

what is questionable for me, if thread and taper (cone) in the spindle can held up 10-15 years...

due its nature, taper can be regrind, but thread cant be fixed really..

victorofga
02-18-2016, 03:07 AM
well...
for your math, if you buy trough on a bank im not sure your math will work..
the 4000 initial cost ending up double, as 8000 dollar on the end..

and spindle only one part only of the equipment..
if it were so simple to buy for that price, then folks wouldn't looking for the lower cost solutions..

additionally, theres no proof that these spindles breaking down automatically every year..

looks very much only the ceramic bearing makes difference, then what explains the other price difference?

and keeping a spare spindle, your downtime almost nothing, compared if you need to send out for repair those Italian spindles..
only replacing bearings ends up 1000-2000 plus it wont happen next day..

==========================================================================

I just was looking for when I purchased really this machine... it was on 2011 end... that 4 years...

Coyotey
02-18-2016, 03:26 AM
Again, thanks for all your feedback guys! Victor: I am very grateful for all the time and advice that you used to help me, both here and on PM's.

I found the spindle but I'm getting scalped with the price. Note to self: Never mention to a Chinese seller again that you need something quickly!

I went in on that Aliexpress site you mentioned Victor (great site) and I could buy another spindle for half the price. My hesitation is having to reset parameters in my Fuling Inverter. I looked at all the you tube clips and read through the user's manual. Looks a bit daunting for someone who has never done this before. Maybe it would go well, but it's a risk and I'm running out of bull**** explanations to my waiting customers. Plug and play is safer (and 400USD more expensive). Also I would need to get someone to modify the mounting plate because the mounting holes are different. I don't have these tools and you don't want to know the hourly rate for workshops here in Norway.

Either way, I just transferred the money so now I will crack open a bottle of whiskey and go cry in a dark corner ;) On another positive note however - I am planning to buy a 2 spindle 1325 machine this fall...knowing what i know now, I will avoid all of these rookie traps!!

Tkamsker
03-08-2016, 05:01 PM
coyotey did you get something ? which pricerange is the machine you have right now ?


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Coyotey
03-10-2016, 08:59 AM
Yes I finally got the exact same spindle as the one that was on the machine. It took time because the company I bought it from decided to save money by not using DHL for the entire trip (that's what I paid for). Instead they got a car to drive the spindle from Jinan to Hong Kong. This is 1600km!! (1000miles)! Sending from Hong Kong is cheaper (major hub). So this dicking around cost me a week of production. No real help from Omni - no big surprise about non-existant after-sales service. They tried to charge me almost double the value. Thanks a lot for taking care of your customer;) It feels like I get mugged every time I have dealings with Chinese suppliers. Is everything they say a lie??

But...at the same time - I saved a chunk of money by buying a Chinese machine and the spindle- break was my fault. It's running constantly here behind me and I'm making money again. The lies and the lack of help has however forced me to learn a lot about how this thing runs and I 'grew a pair' now if something else goes wrong. Hell when it comes right down to it - I could probably do what all of these "cnc factories" do (none of them are factories - they just assemble the parts - and call themselves manufacturers) - just buy all the parts from the companies they buy them from and put everything together myself. Ok, I don't have the time but if I did I'd save even more and all the nuts and bolts would be tight! "Coyotey CNC Tech LTD" hehehe ;)

In the end I think it comes down to cultural differences. We in the west just think differently. They are not understanding that when we buy a product from them, we sort of buy into the company too and want to build trust with the salesman. We want to know that they will always be there and that we will not be cheated or lied to. This will bring us back to buy more in the future. You do have a good product (for the money) but try to understand your western customers and stop burning your bridges. Also please understand that most people see through your devious answers and explanations. We are not stupid!

So...no Jack from OMNI CNC, I will not be buying my next 1325 machine from your company. I just don't trust you.

TKamsker: My present machine (a 1218 with 3.7kw spindle) cam in under 10 000USD deliverred and duty paid.

Coyotey
03-10-2016, 09:13 AM
the main question if the original was really 3.7 kw...

they might not ""knockoff"" , they just simply put another sticker on so customer going back to them for another spindle..
for me, not looking possible if a company can manufacture that spindle, and they can not put on a real aluminum plate..

those Italian spindles possible very great quality ...
but their prices just simply cant be justified for small shops..

for a factory, wher technicians preparing every job, and operators keep running trough on shift... there probably very reasonable..

but for me, I just keep extra spindle of the cheapest ... im using mine since 2 years ago..
I purchased a 2.2 kw but after testing and running a couple days, I just put back the old one..

it still run quietly and works great.. when it fail, I wont fix or replace bearings.. the thread and the cone will be worn anyway.. so new bearing wont help really..

You were absolutely right Victor! The spindle that I got was exactly the same as the one I had before. Before the spindle sticker said: 3.7kw and this one says 3kw. I made no adjustments in the inverter and it runs exactly the same as the old one. Yet another lie from Omni. You don't want to know how much it cost me to "upgrade" from 3kw to 3.7kw!! Dirty crooks!

ger21
03-10-2016, 11:50 AM
Why in the world was I sold a spindle from a company that does not exist and for which parts seem impossible to find

I would consider all chinese spindles to be disposable.
There's a reason the Italian ones cost 10x more.

victorofga
03-10-2016, 05:32 PM
you need to see the positive things..

you learned something

your shop is up and running

that is the most important.. spindle is smaller, or larger not really matter,
when you can run even little slower you already work, and money comes.. then you have time to looking for a better..

also very important that Gerry saying... use it as disposable..
keep on shelf always one, so your downtime never be more than half of hour..

over 3 kw might worth to fix, changing bearing.. but under 3 kw... it just don't worth the headache.. they making out their price easily..

djcregan
03-13-2016, 04:57 AM
Hi. I have a linear ATC machine from Omni that I've had six months. It occurred to me straight away that my Achilles heal will be the Spindle failure so I looked into obtaining a spare spindle . Omni quoted me 2000 USD, I haven't took this any further yet. I did do a round Robbin to get a better price and guess what Omni replied direct even though I hadn't asked Omni fearing a big price. Would be interested to know future supplier.


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gfacer2
03-13-2016, 11:44 AM
For spindles, always pays to keep an eye out. Just picked up a spare hsd 7.5kw atc (used) for $1200 on eBay. They appear once in a blue moon.

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victorofga
03-13-2016, 12:51 PM
if you feel, you can afford, buy an another one for spare..
spindles are breaking down always in the worst moment.. when youre in a job you have to finish..

with a same spindle, your downtime almost zero..

if it were an atc I think its a 1.5-2.2 kw spindle.. sure take their offer, or another.. just make sure spindle is same..

used spindles are mostly sold, because their owner don't want to repair or maintain.. buy only if you feel comfortable to fix yourself..
on other hand, buying a used one, you ending up with 2 used

gfacer2
03-13-2016, 01:21 PM
That's true, my used spindle was a good idea as it is a high hp atc version similar to what we already run on one machine. It has a hsd of the same size (mounting size) and the VFD can accommodate it too.

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ger21
03-13-2016, 01:38 PM
Hi. I have a linear ATC machine from Omni that I've had six months. It occurred to me straight away that my Achilles heal will be the Spindle failure so I looked into obtaining a spare spindle . Omni quoted me 2000 USD

That's a very fair price. Is the machine not running going to cost you more than $2000?

Fwiw, is costs more than that to get the bearings replaced on a 10HP HSD ATC spindle.

gfacer2
03-13-2016, 02:12 PM
That's a very fair price. Is the machine not running going to cost you more than $2000?

Fwiw, is costs more than that to get the bearings replaced on a 10HP HSD ATC spindle.
I've heard its a lot for repair but our hsd spindles have never failed in 16 years on 2 machines so I figured used was worth it... [emoji3] except the cooling fan on one of them.

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gfacer
03-13-2016, 03:55 PM
Cooling fan was the power wire not the fan, so even that has probably lasted. Although I have a 120v fan on top of the HSD fan now because of the wire short and much larger problems it created.... For any HSD owners with a dead fan, sticking a PC style fan on top works fine (with right size and good cfm)!

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djcregan
03-15-2016, 04:20 AM
I think it is by European prices. I was just expected a little less. However it's got ATC spindle release built in so the cost will be more than a standard spindle.


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