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View Full Version : What to Check In Shop Before Buying Table Saw?



thkoutsidthebox
12-13-2006, 09:43 AM
Hi folks,

The Background: A while back I was asking about what in general to look for in a good table saw and I eventually decided on a Jet 10" for €1000 and I was going to import the bismeyer fence, however it turns out that the jet available by my supplier over here is a contractors saw, 10" - 1 3/4Hp motor, not great tables etc, and I cant get the full cabinet version.

This made me lean towards scheppach after reading good things about them online, but when I priced the machine it came to €4000, which is over my budget.

So: I have decided upon a compromise and think Im going with a SIP table saw that I went to look at today. From what I know you folks in the states dont really have much knowledge about SIP tools but they are quite good in general. Made in the UK. Its a 12" and 4Hp motor. Specs are very close to the Scheppach, but its only €1700. Sliding tables.

My question: Im planning to go back and look at it again after I get some advice here. So what should/can I check in the actual shop?

I dont think Ill have an opportunity to make cuts with one.

Is there any way to check the fence accuracy in the display model?

What other things should I look at?

Thanks,

ger21
12-13-2006, 11:30 AM
The fence should be adjustable for both distance and angle. the trunnions should also be adjustable to get the blade parallel to the miter slot. Other than quality control issues, I'd think the only thing you might want to check is the arbor runout.

thkoutsidthebox
12-13-2006, 01:14 PM
Thanks Ger,

Two fence adjustments, and trunnions. Got it! :cheers:

How do I check the arbor runout?

ViperTX
12-13-2006, 01:22 PM
Blade runout....you'd need one of the blade standards and a test indicator to measure that....it will be much more accurate then an arbor nut runout measurement.....

Also flatness of the table....

And does it run...

thkoutsidthebox
12-13-2006, 01:24 PM
Ok....blade runout instead of arbor runout. :) :cheers:

By blade runout do you mean the length of time that the blade keeps spinning after being turned off? :o I don't think I can turn this girl on in the shop! Also how much would one of those indicators cost?

Thanks.

matsuura
12-13-2006, 01:25 PM
whit a dial indicator or just by looking at it when turn by hand,if you have a good eye. ;)

thkoutsidthebox
12-13-2006, 01:32 PM
FWIW Here she is (http://www.toolsbypost.com/product.php?id=3737&category=413)

thkoutsidthebox
12-13-2006, 01:36 PM
Can someone define blade runout for me. I think Im misunderstanding what Im supposed to measure. Sorry.

ger21
12-13-2006, 01:57 PM
Can someone define blade runout for me. I think Im misunderstanding what Im supposed to measure. Sorry.

If it wobbles. It shouldn't. ;)

ViperTX
12-13-2006, 03:23 PM
Have you seen any of the table saw tests contained in Fine Woodworking....as ger21 stated it (blade runout) is the amount of wobble that the blade displays due to problems with the arbor.

You actually mount a machined plate on the arbor....just like a saw blade.....and using a dial indicator you take measurements while turning the blade by hand.....via the v belts unless it is direct drive....

thkoutsidthebox
12-13-2006, 03:57 PM
Thanks all,

Will a regular blade be machined accurately enough to give an acceptable reading with a dial indicator if you dont have a machined plate?

Are the Fine Woodworking tests online?

Megahertz
12-13-2006, 04:45 PM
I am assuming the arbor will accept Dado blades. Dado blades can have a small diameter, 5 inches? Will the arbor on a 12" saw raise enough to expose the dado blades?

fyffe555
12-13-2006, 06:17 PM
I'd check the arbor size.... if I remember correctly the SIP stuff uses a 30mm arbor. That's not a common size (over here its all 5/8" or 1") and you'll be wanting different blades, dado stacks etc. You'll be paying more for a non std arbor size.

Check the arbor can take a stacked dado set, that is there's at least 5/8" available between flange and nut with the nut fully engaged..

As ger says, check you can reasonably align the blade to mitre slot, and then the fence to the mitre slot.

Check the guards and dust extraction.

Check the fence to see if you can easily mount fingerboards etc.


Finally; Do you really need a 12" saw? they're a serious bit of kit if you haven't used one before....

thkoutsidthebox
12-13-2006, 06:23 PM
Thankyou fyffe, :cheers:

Im using a 10" bench mounted table saw at the moment (I didnt buy it myself). Its a cheap chinese piece of s#*t !! :mad: But more precisely, I've had problems where it wont cut thick enough for me, the extra 25mm I get with the 12" should make a differance.....and yes, the blade is certainly serious.....my fingers will be staying weeelllll away from there!! :)

Also its seemed soooo much better today than the 10" Jet saw in both the build and accesories, that the extra €700 will be a good investment, and hopefully I wont have to change it for many years.

I've also decided to delay my purchase of a DeWalt SDS drill which will give me the extra €700, and Im downgrading my planer/thicknesser to a smaller size which will free up another €1150. :)

Im a bit worried by your comment on the arbor size, I'll have to check that.

If it is 30mm would you consider it by itself grounds for getting a differant saw?

bigz1
12-13-2006, 06:57 PM
Buy a second hand Wadkin at auction. SAVE your £££££££££££'s and buy a truly proffesional machine. All the table(6 in total) saws I have bought second hand have not had a problem with runaout but I do check.

Biggest problems(and their easy to fix) are the rip fence not parallel(some prefer to cant the fence but I disagree with this) and sliding fence out of square/level and honing. Most UK table saws won't fit a DADO blade especially if new(which the maxmium allowed is 19mm wide in Blighty by the HSE if I remmember correctly). Blade bore is usually 30mm for the main blade and you will will need a scoring blade in front if machining faced chipboard.

On a WADKIN machine its square everything from the blade including the bed.

If your not sure how to do the above I will dig out my books and scan a few relevant pages if required and give you the titles. I bet you didn't know you can SAFELY make a raised fielded panel with a saw or cut your fingers of shaping a bowl(I have actually seen this in some archaic book that should have been burnt).

Highly recommend downlowding safety advice on panel saws from the Health & Safety Exective(sorry don't have the link). Very practicable and well written. Also have advice on most of the machinery used in the woodworking profession.

DONT BE A FOOL WITH A TOOL.

thkoutsidthebox
12-13-2006, 07:30 PM
Buy a second hand Wadkin at auction. SAVE your £££££££££££'s and buy a truly proffesional machine.

Most UK table saws won't fit a DADO blade especially if new(which the maxmium allowed is 19mm wide in Blighty by the HSE if I remmember correctly). Blade bore is usually 30mm for the main blade and you will will need a scoring blade in front if machining faced chipboard.

If your not sure how to do the above I will dig out my books and scan a few relevant pages if required and give you the titles.

I bet you didn't know you can SAFELY make a raised fielded panel with a saw or cut your fingers of shaping a bowl(I have actually seen this in some archaic book that should have been burnt).

Highly recommend downlowding safety advice on panel saws from the Health & Safety Exective

DONT BE A FOOL WITH A TOOL.

I never heard of Wadkin but I'll try to check them out. Im not sure what the second hand machinery auction scene is like here, but a trip over to England would be fine if it saved me €€€ or got me a better machine for the same price.

Im one of those who prefer to buy new. At least if there is a problem, then I can say, HEY, What the f#*k is going on!! Also I get a 3 yr warranty new.

If blade bore is usually 30mm, then I should be able to get blades from England without a problem. But I'll have to check locally and see their blade selection for whatever bore the SIP is.

If you could give me the titles and ISBN numbers for those books it would be very much appreciated, and possible the scans if you have time would be great.

No I didn't know about the bowl/fingers and panel, and I dont think I'll try!! At least the bowl.....how do you do the panel? :)

Will look at the HSE site.

I hope the last comment wasn't directed at me personally. :(

bigz1
12-13-2006, 07:37 PM
Heres the link for the HSE(sheet 16, Circular saw benches):-

http://www.hse.gov.uk/PUBNS/woodindx.htm

LOL. No the last comment is not aimed at you. But I do see it all to often. Some people cant be helped.

bigz1
12-18-2006, 04:13 PM
Sorry for the delay in responding Diarmaid but my scanners on the fritz. Heres some links to the books in order of preference.

http://www.tesco.com/books/product.aspx?R=0854420797

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Table-Saw-Book-Fine-Woodworking/dp/1561580112/sr=11-1/qid=1166476393/ref=sr_11_1/202-0630755-2844669

Are you buying a saw with a sliding table?

Out of intrest on Friday I commisioned an almost new(less than 5 years old) SCM panel saw capable of holding 3m x 2.5m on the sliding fence and 1200mm on the rip fence.

It had some good and bad features. Good ones first electronic braking(meets HSE regs of braking under 10secs), robust construction. Bad ones no fine adjusters for making the fences square and parrallel(real pain looks like a cost cutting exercise and make adjustment more diffcult), magnified cross hair targets(look good but by movinng your head a few degrees your out by over a mm), set stops move too easily on sliding fence.

I didn't have a say in purchasing this one but the above points are worth checking before purchasing any new machine. On my older machines I check first thing in the morning daily for squareness, parrallel etc(takes 10mins) they tend to not move for months unforunately I cant say this for the new one.

Oldmanandhistoy
12-21-2006, 09:40 PM
Thanks all,

Will a regular blade be machined accurately enough to give an acceptable reading with a dial indicator if you dont have a machined plate?

Are the Fine Woodworking tests online?

You cannot measure run out using the saw blade. Due to the way the saw blade is made (won’t go into details here am a qualified saw doctor) it will wobble while rotating slowly.

Regards,

John

thkoutsidthebox
12-22-2006, 07:42 PM
Thanks for those links Bigz. I'll buy those two books soon. Im going to sit down and print off a lot of those HSE leaflets aswell. :cheers:


So where can I buy a machined plate for testing the run out?