PDA

View Full Version : Upping the capability of a 5804 IC



xairflyer
02-01-2004, 10:07 PM
I have a driver board made up using a 5804 that I am experimenting with.

The IC can drive 1.25 amps on it's own but I have found anymore than 1 amp it gets fairly hot.

I was going to add power transistors or fets to the outputs so I could drive larger steppers, anybody got any views on this ?

ballendo
02-02-2004, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by xairflyer
I have a driver board made up using a 5804 that I am experimenting with.

The IC can drive 1.25 amps on it's own but I have found anymore than 1 amp it gets fairly hot.

I was going to add power transistors or fets to the outputs so I could drive larger steppers, anybody got any views on this ?

Hello,

Piece of cake. Done all the time with the 5804; it's even on the datasheeet. LOTS of mfrs. use the 5804 for it's translator, and up the drive capability with external drivers...

Hope this helps,

Ballendo

xairflyer
02-02-2004, 08:40 AM
I looked at the data sheet and see the "typical output driver" circuit but could not figure this out as the outputs will be low/negative and it shows an npn transistor, I would have thought you would need to be switching a pnp transistor.

ballendo
02-02-2004, 12:00 PM
Xair,

Go to www.cnconabudget.com Cursor down the page awhile :) to the "freebies" section.

There is some GOOD info there on how to use a 5804 with external transistors...

Hope this helps,

Ballendo

HaWee
02-17-2004, 06:23 AM
Ballendo,

I looked at your recommended site un der the freebies section.
But beeing a total newbie in electronics I don't understand his explanation.

I first wanted to use e schematic that only uses TIP120 transistors, but then only little software can be used, because I use 4 channels per stepper. (most software only pulse and direction)
Now I am also thinking of using the UCN5804 for translation in combination maybe with TIP120....But HOW to connect those???


pls help

Urgundiz
02-17-2004, 01:05 PM
xairflyer, hawee, you need something like this, only replace TIP110 for TIP120 or 121 for 5A, or other for more amps. do not forget diodes.

hope it helps.
/U

PS: the 7404 buffers the output (not really neccesary) but also cleans the signal, so maintaining it maybe is a good idea..

HaWee
02-17-2004, 02:03 PM
Thanks Urgundiz,

I was also figuring out something like this today, but then using TIP125 (PNP instead NPN transistor)...

The part before the UCN5804 I want to use the schematic of
http://www.electronics-lab.com/projects/pc/008/

3 axis controller with home switches and limit switch.

Do you think it would be a good idea to use thin in combination with your part?

Urgundiz
02-17-2004, 02:57 PM
The schematic you say sink current to the 5804 (from the diodes direction) and has good info about how to hook to the LPT port.

It seems it will work if you tie the base of the Tip125 to where the diodes are. Put diodes between emitter and colector of the tip125. Better if fast diodes, for example BYV27 ones. Do not forget your ballast resistors betweeen V and stepper winding and the other stuff. The sequence will be, in essence: V, Rballast, Stepper winding, TRN Emitter, TRN Collector, Ground.

Sorry but my Eagle soft just blowed :( so i can't attach a schematic.

Hope it helps
/U

PS: Sorry for my bad english.. is 'blowed' or 'blown'?

davesaudio
02-17-2004, 08:30 PM
I think you need some pullup resistors on the inverter inputs

ballendo
02-18-2004, 12:39 AM
Hello,

If you're going to use the 5804 by itself, don't use the series diodes as shwon in the link above. Instead use diodes which shunt to ground, as shown in the 5804 data sheet...

This means you have four diodes, all connected to ground at their "banded" ends, with the "other" end of each to one of the 4 5804 outputs. Your motors will turn faster this way...

Next, if you're using a buffer, use a 7414, which has a schmitt output. This will clean up the 5804 pulses before you send 'em to the tip120's, or fets (Irfl44z or equiv work well).

Hope this helps,

Ballendo

ballendo
02-18-2004, 12:42 AM
OOPS!

Here's a correction!



Originally posted by ballendo
[This means you have four diodes, all connected to ground at their UNMARKED ends, with the "BANDED" end of each to one of the four 5804 outputs. Your motors will turn faster this way...

Ballendo [/B]


Also, here's the url for the 5804 datasheet:

http://www.allegromicro.com/sf/5804/

ballendo
02-18-2004, 12:47 AM
And a bit more... :)

Using 1n400X diodes will also slow you down. These "rectifier" type diodes are not fast. 1n4934 or 1n4936, or MR851's are MUCH better. And if you use fets, you won't need output diodes at all due to the intrinsic diode you get "free" with a fet. (Just use a fet with a high amp rating, at least double your motor voltage. Like the ones I posted.)

Ballendo

ballendo
02-18-2004, 12:53 AM
still more?!?!?

Yes, use pullups on the input to the 7414. Paul uses 2.2K.

Hawee, Paul has a circuit board of this in his freebies section! You don;t have to understand it, just need to know where to put the parts :D

And he tells you that!

Ballendo

P.S. You could use perf board and just "wire it" from the bottom using pauls layout if pcb's aren't your cup of tea...

HaWee
02-20-2004, 02:53 PM
Ballendo,

After having some contact with Paul Jones I got a schematic drawing where i can see were to put the wires.
The drawing was only untill the TIP120.....the rest above the TIP is drawn by me (just on paper...don't know what programm to use yet...!!) but I used the layout also from Paul jones freebies.

Do you guys think this is complete? Nothing to add?
R2 is added also by Paul Jones, but I don't know exactly how to calculate this one....for the Power Limit Resistor I got the programm stepCalc (also from Paul..thanks a lot Paul!!!).

can I start building like this???? or something else to improve??

Btw. i opened a new thread on help for the SLA7052M, this IC I think works the same as the 5804, but has a lot more stuff build inside, and can handle 3A...why doesn't anyone use this one??
How to connect this one...do I have to add something to it?

ezland00
03-25-2004, 05:29 PM
does the circuit wiring above works? Which program is work for it?

Urgundiz
03-25-2004, 07:06 PM
It works. See http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=26726#post26726 for my schematic with mosfets. I've tested with 5A steppers from an AT PSU and Master5 with no problem, but you can use any step/dir capable program.

hope it helps
/U

PS: I've detected an errata at the schematic, be sure to read it, I will post a correction as soon as possible.

PS2: Corrected.

balsaman
03-25-2004, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by HaWee
Ballendo,

After having some contact with Paul Jones I got a schematic drawing where i can see were to put the wires.
The drawing was only untill the TIP120.....the rest above the TIP is drawn by me (just on paper...don't know what programm to use yet...!!) but I used the layout also from Paul jones freebies.

Do you guys think this is complete? Nothing to add?
R2 is added also by Paul Jones, but I don't know exactly how to calculate this one....for the Power Limit Resistor I got the programm stepCalc (also from Paul..thanks a lot Paul!!!).

can I start building like this???? or something else to improve??

Btw. i opened a new thread on help for the SLA7052M, this IC I think works the same as the 5804, but has a lot more stuff build inside, and can handle 3A...why doesn't anyone use this one??
How to connect this one...do I have to add something to it?

Just FYI,
If you used Steppercalc, in theis configuration you need to select "one resistor" as an option as well as "transistors" for the output option. You can also put one resistor on each motor winding (two per motor), which results in lower wattage resistors. Sometimes the high wattage resistors are more money or harder to find.

Eric

BTW, I am the author of Steppercalc.

ezland00
03-29-2004, 09:43 PM
where or who sells the 7417 ic?

davesaudio
03-29-2004, 10:21 PM
hmmmm not that common anymore
google says:

http://www.gatewayelex.com/7400.htm

HaWee
04-09-2004, 05:48 AM
Hi All,

I just finished the first part of my DIY router....the electical part.
Thanks to all of you who helped me ang gave me hints and tips to design my own PCB.

I didn't hook it up to the steppers yet, but I will do this this weekend....I hope it doesn't start to smoke!!

I used the 5804 and via the 74HC14 it switches the TIP122 transistor, so I think the capability is more then enough....

It looks impressive to me...I hope it performs as well.

HaWee
04-09-2004, 05:54 AM
And one more picture!

HaWee
04-09-2004, 05:58 AM
And the last one....the bottom.....

abasir
04-09-2004, 06:59 AM
HaWee,
Point-to-point wiring is more succeptible to pick up electrical noise, thus
1. Put some bypass capacitors (0.1uF) across the VCC and GND of the ICs to reduce power supply noise to the chip which may cause false signals.
2. Assuming the 5V regulator is by the heatsink, put a 470uF in parallel with 0.1uF across the 5V output and GND.
The above is not mandatory but may reduce headache in troubleshooting later ;)

davesaudio
04-09-2004, 06:38 PM
Workmanship looks great. Agree on 0.1uF caps etc
I have seen the difference between not-work-at-all and perform-as-expected
just from adding the caps!

vacpress
04-09-2004, 08:45 PM
What other chips can have their outputs upped by transistors or fets?

i guess thats basically how the 297 works.. but with hbridges instead.. its odd, even though i know its probably not a problem, i am afraid of the l297s odd footprint....

HaWee
04-10-2004, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by abasir
HaWee,
Point-to-point wiring is more succeptible to pick up electrical noise, thus
1. Put some bypass capacitors (0.1uF) across the VCC and GND of the ICs to reduce power supply noise to the chip which may cause false signals.
2. Assuming the 5V regulator is by the heatsink, put a 470uF in parallel with 0.1uF across the 5V output and GND.
The above is not mandatory but may reduce headache in troubleshooting later ;)

Abasir,
Is the above mentioned also neccesary if using a stabilized power supply??

(thanks for the reply...all tips are welcome....)

davesaudio
04-11-2004, 01:47 PM
I'll let abasir give the long answer,
but in case you are working on it now- short answer YES

abasir
04-11-2004, 11:36 PM
Like dave said --- YES.
The electrical noise come from various sources, i.e., motor switching, router spikes, etc, not just from the power supply. They also come in from various ways, eg, inline, induced, etc. Add the caps and you'll have less to worry ;)

HaWee
04-12-2004, 06:19 AM
Okay,
I assume that you all have more experience as I do...so i just add the capacitors...

Only one more question abasir;
The 1st I understand....
the 2nd point you mention about "put a 470uF in parallel with 0.1uF across the 5V output and GND"
Why 2 in parallel? why not one bigger one? And doen't the 2nd mentioned capacitor do the same as the ones between VCC and ground from the IC 5804?

Is also a capacitor needed by the 74HC14...or isn't that an IC?


(btw. I already put a capacitor over regulator input and ground)

Ferenczyg
04-12-2004, 08:10 AM
470uF and .1 uF capacitors are two different beasts, one will be electrolitic and the other tantalum or ceramic, with different objectives, that's the reason to add two of them in parallel and not one bigger.

And yes, put a bypass Cap for every IC, 7414 included, you are trying to protect all the logic from the noise .


Fer

HaWee
04-13-2004, 06:01 AM
I found an electrolitic capacitor 470uF/40V and I found ceramic capacitors 82nF (0.082uF) is this also okay?.......I think the 0.1uF is only indication, or does it have to be exactly the same value?

I hope it's okay, so I can start with the finishing touch of my PCB.
I am preparing an old PC with an extra LPT port, so i won't destroy my pc's motherboard if something goes wrong.

As soon as this is finished i can connect steppers, pcb and pc together and test with master5 cnc, or something else if al works out.

And then ......start building the mechanical part of the router!!!

abasir
04-13-2004, 08:25 PM
Go ahead... make your day ;)
As you indicated, the values are approximated.

Ferenczyg
04-14-2004, 06:22 PM
All related to capacitors are aproximated ;) because medium tolerances are in the range of 25% except for some very specific (and expensive) types. Just assure you that the volts rating is over the volts you can expect to manage. Then, as abasir said.. go ahead and make your day :D

Fer

HaWee
04-15-2004, 04:50 AM
Thanks you all,

I added the capacitors, and can't wait now to test this board.

As soon as I start testing I can also see if my steppers will be strong enough (can't imagine what 100oz-in does on a router).
I collected the steppers from old HP laserjet-printers (have four now, so can always expand to four axes if neccessary).
They only use 1.4A/5.2V , but if I need bigger motors I can hook up till 5A/100V (tip122), so won't have to build a new PCB.

I will keep you informed!!

ezland00
04-19-2004, 08:37 PM
Have you tested it yet?

HaWee
04-20-2004, 07:30 AM
No...not yet....i'm still searching for my spare LPT-port.
Don't want to testrun it on my regular PC's LPT-port so I'm building a PC that has a seperate LPT-port.

As soon as I have tested this PCB I will have you all informed!!
(i hope to do this this weekend)

Ferenczyg
04-20-2004, 10:59 AM
A lpt-only pci card is 12-15 €, you can use one of these for protecting your regular PC at the testing.
Or try to find a cheap DOS-able laptop for your shop ;)

vacpress
04-20-2004, 04:20 PM
hawee- have you considered making a 555 timer based square wave generator to use to test the circuit? it could also provide valuable manual control while building the machine... and knowing about 555 circuits IS important in almost all electronics.... and you can start testing right away....

-vac

http://www.eleinmec.com/figures/003_03.gif

from

http://www.eleinmec.com/article.asp?3

vacpress
04-20-2004, 04:23 PM
heres a little tidbit of PIC microchip ASM code that can create a squarewave:

loop incf GPIO,w ;reading + 1
andlw B'00011111' ;mask out un-needed bits
movwf count ;put in count

movlw .32 ;GP5 mask
xorwf GPIO ;toggle GP5

decfsz count ;delay
goto $-1

goto loop

HaWee
04-20-2004, 04:58 PM
Hi vacpress,

Thanks for the help, but I think it's simpler for me to start testing right away with my old PC.

By the way....I found my spare PCI LPT port, so I now can start to build my PC and install DOS and
I think ME....(it's an old P150 with 48MB intern memory) I have troubles with installing 98se and I think I like master5 cnc software.

Maybe you guys suggest other better software to use??

davesaudio
04-20-2004, 06:04 PM
If you have a left over gate you can use my favorite:


http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/data/500/2550Osc_7414_var_duty_.gif

Wannabe
04-24-2004, 06:46 PM
HaWee
Nice job on the board you built

I have have all the parts to build the same board as this except the 5804 IC, where is the best place to get them??

Could a tip35a be used in place of the tip122 ?

Thanks

HaWee
04-25-2004, 04:32 AM
Hi Wannabe,

As far as I can see TIP35a can handle the current very well, but I don't know if it's fast enough switching?
As you can read in this thread I'm a complete newby on electrical stuff, so I don't know the real difference between a normal transistor and a power darlington transistor.....maybe someone else can help you on this.

For the 5804IC..I ordered it (in Holland) via RScomponents.

Ferenczyg
04-25-2004, 09:29 AM
The 5804N is a IC sold at the electronic components shop I frequent. At the same time, these shops only have the IC's that sells pretty well (no surprise I suppose) so I think that you can ask directly to your usual supplier. If you have no access to a usual supplier, RS is a sure source.

Fer

davesaudio
04-25-2004, 10:47 AM
look up the specs of the two transistors in question
top of my head (amidst the empty bits) unverified:
tip35 is a beast current-wise but tip122 isa darlington with
associated gain(beta) so you might need a driver transistor to
use a tip35???

Ferenczyg
04-25-2004, 11:00 AM
Better the tip12X series. You will need a lot of base current to drive a high collector current with a tip3X. The vast majority of the designs I've seen uses tip12X

Fer

davesaudio
04-25-2004, 12:28 PM
IIRC - ~TIP141-147 series are the high current darlingtons if you need more "guts"

Wannabe
04-25-2004, 08:33 PM
Thanks for the help guys.
I was trying to build the driver board with the parts I have on hand, it appears I don't have what I really need.

I think I will go a different route because I would have to purchase the parts. I'm thinking a bipolar drive.

Thanks again

Sanghera
04-27-2004, 08:54 PM
A little off topic, but does IC stand for Integrated Circuit, and what does it do. I looked up what I thought was a driver, and the person said that it is just an IC. What does this mean?
Thanks. :):):)

davesaudio
04-27-2004, 10:14 PM
IC -means Integrated Circuit as in multiple devices (transistors)
on one substrate (in one package)

most everything not a discrete (single transistor etc)
or a passive (resistor, capacitor...) is an IC

people may assume this can only mean low signal devices
logic levels or small signal analog/analogue

Driver is a term used to describe function, sometimes it's one stage before the output device (amplifier)...

here it means the device that connects to/drives the stepper/servo

a driver IC is both

flame away.....

starCNC
05-03-2004, 07:38 PM
Hey HaWee have you tested the board?

AI-Men
10-22-2008, 07:41 AM
Hi,

I'm a newbie on CNC and just following this thread. Any news about this project.

Thanks