PDA

View Full Version : IH Gasket Repair help



mattinaustin
11-03-2006, 07:40 PM
Hello everybody, this is my first post here so I hope I am not covering something that has already been done before. I did a search, but couldn't find any info on this topic. Here goes...

I just recently purchased the IH mill from Aaron and it had a couple of problems. One was that oil was dripping form the spindle, especially once the mill was running for a while. It will spit oil out and fling it everywhere if the spindle is moving fast enough. Once I got a hold of Aaron he suggested that I could check the seals at the top of the spindle and the gasket for the flange that holds the seals in there. It was a little more challenging than I thought, but I was able to get the top plate off of the head and see the top seal. It was messed up, but I am not sure if it was done in the process of removing the top plate or if that is what was wrong all along. Anyway, Aaron suggested I change both seals and put some RTV around the flange gasket while I was in there. He sent me 2 seals priority mail and I got them yesterday. The problem is in doing the flange gasket repair. I can not remove the flange because the top gear on one of the gear trees is in the way. If I could drop the spindle spline low enough then I could slide the flange away, but for the life of me I can not figure that out. Aaron mentioned that I just need to remove the spindle spring and a bolt and that would let me drop the spindle, but I wasn't able to get a hold of him yesterday or today to get more detail. I tried removing the entire spindle lowering/raising assembly, but there is only so far the spindle will drop and that little bit poking out of the top of the flange just barely keeps me from getting the flange off. I would really like to get this fixed this weekend and wonder if any of you have gone through the same thing and have some advice??

I either need to remove gear tree that is closest to the flange, or drop the spindle low enough to get the flange off. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks!
--Matt

wildcat
11-03-2006, 08:17 PM
Sorry, I cannot help but I wondered if you would be able to post a few pictures of the interior of the head. Might be interesting for others to see. Shoot, post a few pictures of your repair as well.

mattinaustin
11-03-2006, 08:46 PM
Yeah, a picture would certainly help. Here is one with the damaged top seal in view. You can see the flange right in the middle, the spindle spline is poking up through it. Since this pic was taken, I have removed the drawbar and moved the spindle down as far as it will go so that the top is just about flush with the top of the flange plate (or whatever it is called). Still can't quite get it off with that gear in the way.

--Matt

widgitmaster
11-03-2006, 09:09 PM
http://www.use-enco.com/Machinery/105-1145.pdf

Is this the same mill?

mattinaustin
11-03-2006, 09:29 PM
Close...its a Rong Fu knock off as well. In that head diagram, the seals that are being replaced are numbered 135 and the gasket is 131 (I believe).

widgitmaster
11-03-2006, 09:31 PM
Close...its a Rong Fu knock off as well. In that head diagram, the seals that are being replaced are numbered 135 and the gasket is 131 (I believe).

Go to the www.use-enco.com web site, they have more manuals on their home page! You might find one closer!

Good luck!
Eric

mattinaustin
11-03-2006, 09:34 PM
Thanks, but I have the manual. I just don't know what method to use to either break the seal on the bearing that the gear tree sits in or figuring out some other way to get that flange removed. At this point I am looking for help on the method to remove it and that is not in the manual.

Thanks for you help though!

--Matt

philbur
11-04-2006, 06:22 AM
Looks to me like item 69 may be an external snap ring on the sleeve, to limit its travel. If this is the case it seems that you will have to pull the obstructing gears before you can remove the offending bearing flange.

Regards
Phil


http://www.use-enco.com/Machinery/105-1145.pdf

Is this the same mill?

Runner4404spd
11-04-2006, 08:46 AM
my spindle seal was damaged as well. i was able to remove the spring that was messing it up and its a little loose but holds oil in better. do you have the part number for the oil seal at the top of the spindle? can you post it here?

i would try unwinding the spring, its the chrome plated cover opposite the handle. that may let you bring it down a little more. it would make sense that there is a snap ring minimizing travel. i haven't really dove that deep into this mill yet.

MAX711
11-04-2006, 11:42 AM
There are 2 grub screws (one locking the other) in a threaded hole in the side of the head casting. There is also a keyway in the spindle outer sleeve that the grub screws project into and limit the travel. If you remove the coiled spring (chrome thing on side) and the grub screws, the spindle will drop all the way down. The coil spring is tightly wound and gets tighter the further down the spindle is so remove it with the spindle near the top of its travel. You'll also need to withdraw the quill handle through the right side of the head.

Hope that helps.

philbur
11-04-2006, 11:53 AM
mattinaustin said in his first post "I tried removing the entire spindle lowering/raising assembly" which I guess means he has removed the spring.

Regards
Phil


There are 2 grub screws (one locking the other) in a threaded hole in the side of the head casting. There is also a keyway in the spindle outer sleeve that the grub screws project into and limit the travel. If you remove the coiled spring (chrome thing on side) and the grub screws, the spindle will drop all the way down. The coil spring is tightly wound and gets tighter the further down the spindle is so remove it with the spindle near the top of its travel. You'll also need to withdraw the quill handle through the right side of the head.

Hope that helps.

MAX711
11-04-2006, 12:19 PM
mattinaustin said in his first post "I tried removing the entire spindle lowering/raising assembly" which I guess means he has removed the spring.

Regards
Phil

Thanks Phil, I can now see that I instructed mattinaustin to duplicate work he had already done. Hopefully I didn't confuse him too much. The important part of my post was the first part which talks about the hidden grub screws, they are very easy to miss because they are at the bottom of a dark hole and there's 2 of them. You remove one thinking the spindle will now move, but it doesn't because there's another one further in the hole. I suspect that might be the problem mattinaustin is having.

mattinaustin
11-04-2006, 12:25 PM
Runner: I don't have the part number for the seals with me, but I will try and get it when I head back to the shop. However, from what Aaron said they are not always the same. I have the new model for what it is worth.

MAX711: Thanks for the tip. That sounds more like what Aaron was suggesting. I will hopefully be able to give it a try later this afternoon.

Thanks!!!

--Matt

Randall
11-04-2006, 02:01 PM
I am sure you checked this out cause it looks like you know what your doing!
But I had a problem at first because I overfilled, cause I didnt know what I was doing. My symptoms where the same as yours.
Randy

mattinaustin
11-04-2006, 10:47 PM
Yeah, I was fine on how much oil was in it. That wasn't the problem. Almost certain it was the top seal.

Thanks MAX711! I did as you said and got the spindle all the way down. That allowed me to remove the flange plate. It was a *****, but I got the second seal out, replaced both of them, and then thoroughly cleaned the gasket and put some rtv for extra measure per Aarons advice. It was a little challenging getting everything back together, but all said it only took me a couple of hours. I think everything is working and sealed up now. I didn't have a chance to run it to long, but it didn't leak for the 10 minutes that I did run it.

The number on the seals for my particular mill is 35X45X7 (TCM PART 35X45X7TC).

I took lots of pictures if you guys are interested.

--Matt

mattinaustin
11-04-2006, 11:11 PM
Here are all the pictures I took. The grub screws are in there along with pictures of the spring (and the little screw on the shaft you have to get it to attach to), the flange and its gasket before and after with the RTV squishing out (hopefully that will be okay), the seals and my attempt to remove the second one (finally did it with a screwdriver and hammer), and more. Let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks again for all the help!

--Matt

Randall
11-05-2006, 10:25 AM
Matt
Nice pictures. I have a question. Can I mount a power drawbar on the raised area on top of the spindle or arond it. I bet I should remove the top of of the gearbox an check it out, or ask Arron.
Randy

MAX711
11-05-2006, 10:32 AM
Congrats Matt!

You've now mastered the most complex part of the mill. The rest of the mill is a lot easier to take apart. Any plans to CNC it?

mattinaustin
11-05-2006, 11:39 PM
No plans to CNC in the near term, I feel like I have a lot of learning to do since I am brand new to the mill. I would love to CNC sometime in the future if I start doing minor production work. Who knows, things can change very fast.

I ran the mill for quite a while today and still no oil leak! I do feel like I understand a lot more of how it works. It was actually good to get inside it and see what goes on in that box (even though I would have rather not had to go through all of that).

Now I need to fix the Z axis bind at the bottom of the column. I need to drill the holes out on the plate that holds the Z axis handle so there is a tiny bit of slop in it. That should take care of that problem. Its not a show stopper right now since I can just loosen the bolts and it takes care of most of the problem.

--Matt

youngfg
11-06-2006, 04:16 PM
I had the same leak. My top seal was damaged also, but the second was was still good. I changed both seals and it still leaked, it turned out there was a casting flaw in the seal retainer, I put some epoxy on it, now no leaks.

Here are some pics I took during the disassembly.

youngfg
11-06-2006, 04:21 PM
More pics.

mattinaustin
11-16-2006, 06:03 PM
... it turned out there was a casting flaw in the seal retainer, I put some epoxy on it, now no leaks.


Well my leak is back. Its odd since I have not run the mill since I last posted and there were several days where nothing was dripping. Then I noticed a couple days ago that there were a couple of drops forming on the end of the spindle, but no oil had made its way to the table. Today I look at it and there is about a silver dollar size puddle under the spindle. It's not as bad as before (yet), but still bothers me.

I am curious about your casting flaw and how the leak manifested itself for you. Did it leak only when running, or would it drip just sitting there?

--Matt

MrWild
11-16-2006, 07:17 PM
Youngfg, is your top plate cracked at the bearing bore?

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25284&d=1162847541

I see what looks like a crack.

ViperTX
11-16-2006, 08:58 PM
Thinking to myself....and this is on brand new IH mills....gotta remember to stay away from them.....

youngfg
11-16-2006, 10:42 PM
Not a crack, a bristle from a brush I was using.

BobWarfield
11-17-2006, 04:40 PM
Thinking to myself....and this is on brand new IH mills....gotta remember to stay away from them.....

I don't think you'll have to work to hard to remember Viper. Of course you'll have to also avoid:

Monarch Lathes ( http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000607;p=0 )

Graziano Lathes ( http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=000306;p=0 )

South Bend Lathes ( http://www.armurerieduroi.com/pages/lathe/lathe_lubrication.html#28 )

And most other makes if your criteria is whether the machine can develop an oil leak or not. :cool:

Best,

BW

ViperTX
11-17-2006, 06:39 PM
BobWarfield.....I understand but these other machines are decades old....their seals have dried out....the IH machines are new to very new and I suspect the problem is a manufacturing problem.

BobWarfield
11-17-2006, 07:49 PM
Viper, maybe this thread and quote will be more on point then:

"He said: You may not experience this, being a HSM, but every Enco I've ever seen leaked out of the rear spindle after some run time

I have honestly never ran a machine that did not drip some oil from somewhere. Even a brand new LeBlond that was bought where I worked in the 90's leaked some.
I am just sad that it was not bought from machinetoolonline.com, but they are not anywhere near as bas as you will see when people complain on the internet."

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/30/1351.html#000008

Best,

BW

ViperTX
11-17-2006, 08:09 PM
Okay Bob....all gear head lathes or mills will leak to some extent...

mattinaustin
11-18-2006, 12:30 PM
Maybe all mills leak some, but this leak seems a little more than just 'normal'. I wonder if there is a flaw in the casting like youngfg had? I wouldn't be quite as worried about it except that if I get oil on titanium before welding it just increases the risk that I will not be able to thoroughly clean it and end up contaminating the weld. The person I share the shop with cuts carbon fiber on his mill and can not afford ANY oil getting into it. Its a rong-fu knock off as well, but no leaking at all.

I guess i am going to have to take the whole thing apart again and do some more investigation. Either that or keep a rag handy an wipe up any oil before it drips. I will try and get a hold of Aaron at IH to discuss next week. This is really a pain I was not counting on with a brand new mill :-(

--Matt

ViperTX
11-18-2006, 12:45 PM
Well cast iron is porous...buy yourself some of that magnaflux paint (I think that is the name)....it is used to show any cracks in metal objects under blacklight....used in the auto motor rebuilding industry.

If the leaks are from around the seals....then I would tend to believe that the runout may be a problem....if this is the problem you may look at making a oil slinger that spins the oil from the seal....or look at adding an inner seal....think of the seals that car engines have around the rotating crank....Heck if my Chevy truck leaked like that....I'd take it back.

Cruiser
11-19-2006, 08:12 AM
My IH did some oil dribbling, but mine was foaming oil escaping through the vent in the fill cap then runnin down behind front name plate and pooling up everywhere, i fixed it with some pipe fittings to allow the oil to pool in pipe like a radiator resevoir. so far it works.

MAX711
11-19-2006, 09:56 AM
Mine has a small leak around the spindle somewhere. I just give it a quick wipe before I use it, it's so small I haven't tried tracing it. It's a bit like my old Triumph Bonneville, when they STOP leaking oil, you start worrying:)

Richards
11-19-2006, 11:27 AM
My IH leaks pretty good. (At least I don't have to worry about rust!) I have noticed that when I'm running at anything except top speed, there is little or no leaking, but at the highest speed, there is a constant flow. So far, I've added about eight ounces of oil to keep the oil level at the line, which means that the 5-gallon pail that I bought should last quite awhile. I would prefer that the machine not drip oil, but I have to use lots of WD-40 when cutting aluminum anyway, so a little dripping just adds variety to the mixture.

kimoyo
12-25-2006, 11:45 AM
It was a little more challenging than I thought, but I was able to get the top plate off of the head and see the top seal. It was messed up, but I am not sure if it was done in the process of removing the top plate or if that is what was wrong all along.

How did you get the top plate off? Thanks.

wildcat
12-25-2006, 12:18 PM
Cruiser - do you have a picture of this? This the same problem that I have. I think I understand what you are saying but if you do have a picture that would be great. I had assumed that the fill hole was some sort of metric thread.


My IH did some oil dribbling, but mine was foaming oil escaping through the vent in the fill cap then runnin down behind front name plate and pooling up everywhere, i fixed it with some pipe fittings to allow the oil to pool in pipe like a radiator resevoir. so far it works.

mattinaustin
12-26-2006, 10:16 PM
How did you get the top plate off? Thanks.

Hello Kimoyo,

I removed the motor by removing the bolts and lifting it off (you also have to disconnect the wires coming from the switch). Then I removed the top plate bolts. Next, I tightened the square head bolt that is sticking up on the front. That bolt serves as a lifting point and is used to break the seal. Once you start tightening, the finish coat will start to crack around the edge. Use a screw driver or something else to pry up on the opposite side of the top plate to keep it straight as it comes up. The top plate needs to come straight up and not at an angle in order to protect the seals and not bend anything. Its heavy and requires some effort. Once you do it once it becomes pretty easy.

Good luck.

By the way, no leaking since the last report. Not sure what that last little dribble was all about???

--Matt

kimoyo
12-26-2006, 11:10 PM
Next, I tightened the square head bolt that is sticking up on the front. That bolt serves as a lifting point and is used to break the seal. Once you start tightening, the finish coat will start to crack around the edge. Use a screw driver or something else to pry up on the opposite side of the top plate to keep it straight as it comes up. The top plate needs to come straight up and not at an angle in order to protect the seals and not bend anything.

Thanks!!

Cruiser
01-06-2007, 09:21 PM
Some of you have asked for a pic of what i was talking about and here it is ! should be self explanitory, and so far it seems to work, time will tell !

kimoyo
07-19-2007, 08:15 AM
The number on the seals for my particular mill is 35X45X7 (TCM PART 35X45X7TC).

Hey,

I just took apart my mill's head yesterday and it went very well. I just followed everything in this thread, (remember to have the spindle all the way up before you remove the quill lock) and everything was straight forward. Oh, something anyone else doing this might find very helpful. I spent about 20-30 mins messing around trying to get the seals out of the flange plate after I removed it from the mill. Then I clamped the plate down on the table. Pushed a flat head screwdriver (from the top) under the lip at the bottom of the first seal as much as could (it didn't go in that far). I balled up some paper towel and put it between the screwdriver and otherside of the top of the flange plate where the screwdriver was resting so I wouldn't dent the plate. Then I pushed down on the handle and the seal popped out in about 10 secs. Did the same with the second with no issues. I post a picture later on if I can.

I do have a few questions.

On the bottom of my seals that came out of the mill, my part number says "NAK TC 35 45 7 4C". I realize that both mattinaustin and I have the newer mill but is the seal Aaron sent out the same ones? Anyone know the product number for them at mcmaster carr?

Mattinaustin - I notice you had some issues with your quill bouncing up and down after you did this. Did you ever solve that? How far did you tighten the grub screws when you put them back on? Are they rubbing against the sleeve? Would the spring have anything to do with it? I was thinking it wouldn't but I realized that we might not tighten it back down as hard as the manufacturer does.

Thanks.

Runner4404spd
07-19-2007, 02:12 PM
i got mine from a local bearing supply house. they have an ID of 35 mm and an OD of 45 mm and a thickness of 7mm.

IHCNC
07-19-2007, 08:16 PM
Runner4404speed and Kimoyo have it right. Easy to change and don't forget to put some grease on the shaft and seal to let it seat in.
IHCNC
Gene

keitholivier
07-19-2007, 09:28 PM
I have a few questions to the man with the leaking spindle:

1) is there another seal behind the gear that drives the spindle ? All the pics show it just sitting in the cover casting, but since the gear has a bore to allow the spindle to pass through, there is the possibility that oil is getting through "topside" ? I don't know if this is possible, but if the oil leaks only when running, this is a possibility.

2) is there a bushing between the 2 seals that the stub of the gear rides in to keep it centralized ? I find it hard to believe that there is only a bushing in the top of the cover ?

3) did anyone "try" the fit of their new seal on the stub of the drive gear ? Maybe the fit is not right (too losoe or too tight) or maybe the radius on the end of the stub needs to be polished to slide into the seal nicely on assembly. Trying to engage a shaft into a radial seal when you can't see it on assembly is a *****. I would set the flange with seal in down on a level surface and then try to enter the stub of the drive gear (while observing what is going on since I can see it). Or even better, turn the top cover upside down and try fitting the flange and seals on that stub shaft. If you can't get it to go on dead straight (with no "wiggling") you will never get it right on assembly.

4) if 3) doesn't work out, look to see where the seal will ride on the stub shaft and cut a longer taper / lead with as shallow an angle as possible on the stub (use a lathe) and polish the whole thing mirror smooth and try step 3 again. Only when this goes like butter should you try re-assembly of the cover or you may trash out your new seal in an instant.

5) before slapping it together (or even better, before pulling it apart) make sure that the system doesn't have any overtravel anywhere that can cause the seals to get smashed. If possible, see if the top cover can be installed prior to re-inserting the spindle and quill, since the risk of the splines damaging the seal is pretty good. If the stub shaft is already inside the seal, it is safer.

regards Keith

kimoyo
07-20-2007, 12:09 AM
1) is there another seal behind the gear that drives the spindle ? All the pics show it just sitting in the cover casting, but since the gear has a bore to allow the spindle to pass through, there is the possibility that oil is getting through "topside" ? I don't know if this is possible, but if the oil leaks only when running, this is a possibility.


No there isn't, but the liquid oil doesn't go up that far.


2) is there a bushing between the 2 seals that the stub of the gear rides in to keep it centralized ? I find it hard to believe that there is only a bushing in the top of the cover ?


The seals are centered in a plate that is attached and centered over the spindle housing. The spindle rides on two bearings that attach and are centered in the spindle sleeve. So everything should be center and no need for a bushing in between the seals. The seals are used as seals and not to center the spindle which you use the bearings for.



3) did anyone "try" the fit of their new seal on the stub of the drive gear ? Maybe the fit is not right (too losoe or too tight) or maybe the radius on the end of the stub needs to be polished to slide into the seal nicely on assembly. Trying to engage a shaft into a radial seal when you can't see it on assembly is a *****. I would set the flange with seal in down on a level surface and then try to enter the stub of the drive gear (while observing what is going on since I can see it). Or even better, turn the top cover upside down and try fitting the flange and seals on that stub shaft. If you can't get it to go on dead straight (with no "wiggling") you will never get it right on assembly.


Not really understanding what your saying here. The seal plate is attached to the spindle housing. The spindle is lowered down past the plate when you are putting the plate back on. The plate has screws in and there really isn't any alignment procedure because you just put the screws back in. Even before you tighten the screws down, as long as they are thru the plate and screwed into the spindle sleeve a bit the plate doesn't wiggle at all. Its really pretty easy putting the plate back on the sleeve.


4) if 3) doesn't work out, look to see where the seal will ride on the stub shaft and cut a longer taper / lead with as shallow an angle as possible on the stub (use a lathe) and polish the whole thing mirror smooth and try step 3 again. Only when this goes like butter should you try re-assembly of the cover or you may trash out your new seal in an instant.


I'm really not following you on this or why any of this would be necessary.


5) before slapping it together (or even better, before pulling it apart) make sure that the system doesn't have any overtravel anywhere that can cause the seals to get smashed. If possible, see if the top cover can be installed prior to re-inserting the spindle and quill, since the risk of the splines damaging the seal is pretty good. If the stub shaft is already inside the seal, it is safer.


Firstly, the seals have metal rings inside of them and secondly the plate is there and you would have to crush the plate first before you did the seals. And I don't even know what you would be crushing it with, there's really nothing large enough in diameter to crush down on the seals.

kimoyo
07-20-2007, 12:15 AM
i got mine from a local bearing supply house. they have an ID of 35 mm and an OD of 45 mm and a thickness of 7mm.

I gotcha. Nak is just a European company but any idea what the 4C means on my seals? TC would be the type correct, but what is the 4C? Thanks.

keitholivier
07-20-2007, 07:19 AM
1) is there another seal behind the gear that drives the spindle ? All the pics show it just sitting in the cover casting, but since the gear has a bore to allow the spindle to pass through, there is the possibility that oil is getting through "topside" ? I don't know if this is possible, but if the oil leaks only when running, this is a possibility.


No there isn't, but the liquid oil doesn't go up that far.

Well, you hope not, but oil can do some strange things.


2) is there a bushing between the 2 seals that the stub of the gear rides in to keep it centralized ? I find it hard to believe that there is only a bushing in the top of the cover ?


The seals are centered in a plate that is attached and centered over the spindle sleeve. The spindle rides on two bearings that attach and are centered in the spindle sleeve. So everything should be center and no need for a bushing in between the seals. The seals are used as seals and not to center the spindle which you use the bearings for.

Since the seals make contact with neither the quill or the spindle but ONLY the stub that projects down on the drive gear (visible in both sets of pictures) http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25209&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1162699599, I am trying to figure out what holds this gear in alignment. Is it mererly the fit between the internal and external splines ? Any "wobble" on this gear will allow the seal to be destroyed in a short time.



3) did anyone "try" the fit of their new seal on the stub of the drive gear ? Maybe the fit is not right (too losoe or too tight) or maybe the radius on the end of the stub needs to be polished to slide into the seal nicely on assembly. Trying to engage a shaft into a radial seal when you can't see it on assembly is a *****. I would set the flange with seal in down on a level surface and then try to enter the stub of the drive gear (while observing what is going on since I can see it). Or even better, turn the top cover upside down and try fitting the flange and seals on that stub shaft. If you can't get it to go on dead straight (with no "wiggling") you will never get it right on assembly.


Not really understanding what your saying here. The seal plate is attached to the spindle sleeve. The spindle is lowered down past the plate when you are putting the plate back on. The plate has screws in and there really isn't any alignment procedure because you just put the screws back in. Even before you tighten the screws down, as long as they are thru the plate and screwed into the spindle sleeve a bit the plate doesn't wiggle at all. Its really pretty easy putting the plate back on the sleeve.

Put this http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25215&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1162699667 or better this http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25212&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1162699618 (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25212&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1162699618)onto this http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25209&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1162699599 and see how it fits and if it is feasible to get it assembled without damaging the seal. Most seals can last almost forever in service, if they can survive the assembly procedure. Since I imagine it is impossible to "wiggle" the top cover that carries the drive gear and since you can't see what your doing at that point, I suspect that there is a good possibility that it initially goes together misaligned and shears off part of the sealing lip of the seal.


4) if 3) doesn't work out, look to see where the seal will ride on the stub shaft and cut a longer taper / lead with as shallow an angle as possible on the stub (use a lathe) and polish the whole thing mirror smooth and try step 3 again. Only when this goes like butter should you try re-assembly of the cover or you may trash out your new seal in an instant.


I'm really not following you on this or why any of this would be necessary. Look closely at the surface of that shaft on the gear and you can see where the seal ends up sitting. Think about the fact that the end of that shaft has to enter the ID of the seal (when you can't see what is going on ie: blind). Maybe, if the corner of that shaft had a better lead in and better finish this would be a more secure operation. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25209&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1162699599 (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25209&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1162699599)


5) before slapping it together (or even better, before pulling it apart) make sure that the system doesn't have any overtravel anywhere that can cause the seals to get smashed. If possible, see if the top cover can be installed prior to re-inserting the spindle and quill, since the risk of the splines damaging the seal is pretty good. If the stub shaft is already inside the seal, it is safer.


Firstly, the seals have metal rings inside of them and secondly the plate is there and you would have to crush the plate first before you did the seals. And I don't even know what you would be crushing it with, there's really nothing large enough in diameter to crush down on the seals.

kimoyo
07-20-2007, 10:38 AM
Well, you hope not, but oil can do some strange things.


There is a window on the side so you can tell what your oil level is and if your not turning your head upside I wouldn't worry about it. The spindle goes thru the opening of that driving gear's stub. The stub, as you said, goes down below the seals. So if your seals are working then not only do you have gravity but you also have the seals to make sure that the oil doesn't go down into the spindle sleeve and then back up thru that stub. The stub itself is attached to the housing and I don't think you would have any issue there because people have tried to take that stub off and its on there pretty good. But ultimately, you shouldn't fill the oil to the top above the correct level anyway, I'd be more worried about it leaking out of sides where that top attaches to the head.


Since the seals make contact with neither the quill or the spindle but ONLY the stub that projects down on the drive gear (visible in both sets of pictures) http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25209&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1162699599, I am trying to figure out what holds this gear in alignment. Is it mererly the fit between the internal and external splines ? Any "wobble" on this gear will allow the seal to be destroyed in a short time.


The outside rim of the seals are made of metal covered by rubber. This inner diameter of this metal ring measures 38mm. Then there is rubber protruding inward where a spring coil is. You can see the coil removed from the seal near the bottom of the picture below near mattinaustin's palm.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25220&d=1162699731
This spring is covered by rubber also, not exposed, and brings the seal tightly around that stub which measures 35mm. It took me 20 mins of pulling and tearing with needle-nose pliers to pull the rubber off of that seal's metal ring (the one with the 38mm diameter). After doing that I have no concerns about putting that stub thru it. As far as when the stub is turning and being being centered, the top its attached to has two rods which fit snug into the head. You can see them in this picture
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25284&d=1162847541
As long as you lower the top slowly and get the rods in the head, everything should line up.

Also I should say that my second seal wasn't damaged at all and my seals weren't leaking. With the second seal being perfect and with my oil running at the correct level I think I would have been fine. These are only seals to keep oil from dripping into the spindle sleeve. The spring coil was exposed a little from what looked like the inner rubber tearing, so I wanted to replace it. I'm saying all this but I'm also thinking that maybe this really shouldn't be an issue at all. The window you set the level of the oil to is an inch below the top of the seal plate, so when cool the oil level should be an inch or so below the top of the seal plate. At that time the seal plate shouldn't be immersed in oil. I'm not sure if the tear in my first seal was from me opening the top or not but when I had it running I didn't have any issues with oil leaking, but then again my oil level was set properly. The only reason I opened my top is because I want to change out the spindle, other than that I wouldn't have even thought about changing the seal. But since I'm in there and I like messing around with it, I thought why not, the seals are about $5.


Put this http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25215&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1162699667 or better this http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25212&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1162699618 (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25212&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1162699618)onto this http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25209&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1162699599 and see how it fits and if it is feasible to get it assembled without damaging the seal. Most seals can last almost forever in service, if they can survive the assembly procedure. Since I imagine it is impossible to "wiggle" the top cover that carries the drive gear and since you can't see what your doing at that point, I suspect that there is a good possibility that it initially goes together misaligned and shears off part of the sealing lip of the seal.


That's a possibility so when putting it back together I will make sure to lower the top slowly and level. I'll try to be extremely careful, should only take a few minutes total to do. With the rods, that alignment should be good and I shouldn't have to worry about. As long as I don't tilt the top but rather let it drop down straight hopefully there won't be an issue.


Look closely at the surface of that shaft on the gear and you can see where the seal ends up sitting. Think about the fact that the end of that shaft has to enter the ID of the seal (when you can't see what is going on ie: blind). Maybe, if the corner of that shaft had a better lead in and better finish this would be a more secure operation. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25209&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1162699599 (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25209&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1162699599)
[/QUOTE]


The edge of the stub is beveled and not really sharp. If it took me 20mins of pulling and tearing at the seal with needle nose pliers to pull that spring and rubber off. I don't think its going to be a problem while I'm putting the top back on.

Now that I think about it, maybe people should make sure their oil level is correct before opening the top. I'm not sure if these are designed to be run with oil in the seal plate itself.

keitholivier
07-20-2007, 07:24 PM
Mr Kimoyo

You have countered every proposal I have made and thats fine. Somehow 2 different people ended up with damaged seals in their machines. I don't think thats a coincidence. It has to do with bad design, possibly poor finish and more than likely some indifferent assembly.

I have tried to point out some possible sources of trouble that you seem disinterested in (or disbelieve), and if your unit is now fine, maybe thats understandable. But your not the first and won't be the last to have this issue.

I strongly recommend to anyone else who has this issue to evaluate carefully exactly how the fitup is between the shaft and the lip of the seal. It is quite common for corners to be cut in manufacturing that result in it being almost impossible to enter shafts into seals without causing damage. Incorrect/too sharp/too rough corners on shafts are more common than you would believe.

If its your machine and you want to get it right (forget about what was good enough for the assembly line worker in China) you want to make no assumptions about the quality of these details.

I used to work for a large resistance welding company who built all their own pneumatic cylinders. We did thousands of custom cylinders a year. I would make sure that the chamfers radii and finish on all leading edges followed the seal makers recommendations (on the drawing), yet when I inspected the parts in the assembly area it was common that some arbitrary chamfer had been applied (yes, it was the engineers responsibility to assemble the first unit personally - great way to get feedback with the artisans looking over your shoulder..). So I know from personal experience just how important these details can be.

regards
Keith

kimoyo
07-20-2007, 08:52 PM
Mr Kimoyo

You have countered every proposal I have made and thats fine. Somehow 2 different people ended up with damaged seals in their machines. I don't think thats a coincidence. It has to do with bad design, possibly poor finish and more than likely some indifferent assembly.

I have tried to point out some possible sources of trouble that you seem disinterested in (or disbelieve), and if your unit is now fine, maybe thats understandable. But your not the first and won't be the last to have this issue.

Lol, Mr. Keitholivier,

We have both come here for different reasons. I'm here to help people and your here to scare them. I listened to people like you on this site for half a year and felt worried that I couldn't do this. I'm no machinists!!! But it took me 30 mins from start to finish to get the seal plate out, it was easy, it wasn't even close to being hard. And now I have no idea what I was worried about, especially if this is supposed to be the most complicated part of my mill. But listening to what others were saying on this site got me so worried that I didn't think of cnc'ing my mill for half a year.

Did you ever consider we have different opinions because what I'm saying is true? I've actually taken apart the mill, do you even own one? I'm sure if you told Gene your name he would know who you are because he has a complete list of IH customers. What your saying isn't close to the reality of the situation.

And what are you talking about turning the stub on lathe for??? Trying to make stuff seem much more complicated than it is, that's ridiculous. Firstly, these are oil seals we're talking about and secondly there's a 3mm difference in diameter between the the stub and the metal ring inside the seal (38mm, 35mm). Can you screw a light bulb into a socket? Because you have a hell of a lot less clearance and your working with glass there. And lastly, they've already beveled the edge of the stub. The stub goes from a 32mm diameter to a 35mm diameter in 3mm. So now you have 6mm's to put the stub in the hole.

I haven't had to talk to Gene about any of this, this is all common sense! I took all these measurements off my own mill, I went downstairs with a caliper and measured away. And I don't believe my mill is any more special then the numerous others they've sold.

kimoyo
07-20-2007, 09:08 PM
BTW Keith,

I see you registered this month, you wouldn't happen to be Philbur would you? You speak very similar and you even sign your name the same way with the 'regards' thing.

Paul

keitholivier
07-20-2007, 10:20 PM
Despite all the protesting you have no explanation for how your seal and others got trashed, do you ? Why don't you think about that for a bit ?

So the answer is to make this personal and compare me to someone who apparently has a reputation for being obnoxious.

You don't have to pay any attention to me at all. If you think I'm a dumb ass, just ignore me. There are many others here who might not be as stubborn and (overconfident ?) as you.

No, I don't own an IH mill. I thought long and hard about buying one and finally couldn't pass up a Kent 380 bridgeport clone that was only 80 miles away for $950 including a 2 axis DRO. But thats not the point. I do know a thing or two about seals and design for manufacture and assembly and I did in fact do fitting and turning as my trade when I was in high school in the 80's. Now I have to get used to the fact that I may never own a colchester like what I worked on back then.

Oh, I also have no need to hide behind aliases, Keith is my real name.

keitholivier
07-20-2007, 10:37 PM
Philbur is from Norway apparently.

I used to do some work in the petrochemical industry, specifically building offshore oil platforms, and I worked with some Norwegians then. I'm not sure that the ones I worked with were good ambassadors for their country. Although, I'm led to believe that in Norway most of the fine welding is done by ladies. Must be a completely different kind of atmosphere on those construction sites....

kimoyo
07-20-2007, 10:52 PM
Despite all the protesting you have no explanation for how your seal and others got trashed, do you ? Why don't you think about that for a bit ?

Dude, this is the second time I'm telling you this and this is the second or third time your asserting the opposite of what I've said. My seal wasn't trashed at all, I had no oil leaks whatsoever. I'm in my mill head to swap out the spindle not because of the $3.95 seals which would take me about 30 secs to swap out.

And what I think might have happened to mattinaustin is simple and I'm surprised some like you, with extensive work with seals, didn't think of this already. Maybe he didn't have enough grease packed in there. With what I know now, I probably would have just thrown a whole lot of grease (which is standard with seals) in there because the grease is what is supposed to ride between the seal and the shaft providing lubrication and helping to seal any gaps. If the grease isn't there, then that could lead to friction/heat. With matt, one moment it was leaking and the next moment it wasn't which kinda makes me think the grease finally worked itself fully in between the seal.


No, I don't own an IH mill. I thought long and hard about buying one and finally couldn't pass up a Kent 380 bridgeport clone that was only 80 miles away for $950 including a 2 axis DRO.

If you don't have an IH mill why are you talking from experience like you do.

Its funny because I was driving to my chinese take out store a few minutes ago. And on the way I actually started thinking about your turning the stub on a lathe comment.

You don't even own an IH mill to look at the stub and yet your recommending a extreme scenario without even feeling one. But if you did own an IH mill and if there was an issue with the stub (which I haven't heard anyone who owned the mill say there was) and not a fictitious one you made up without even seeing the part (there's a lot of if's), why would you go thru the hassle of actually trying to get out and turn the the stub instead of just sending the 10lb (at most) top and the maybe 2lb seal plate which is under warranty back to IH for replacement??? It really befuddles me that in this made up example you presented you wouldn't just take the easiest/quickest route to fixing the problem. Why would recommend the most extreme time consuming thing, when you could just pack it up in a box, send it back and be done with it in a few minutes.

keitholivier
07-20-2007, 11:11 PM
why would you go thru the hassle of actually trying to get out and turn the the stub instead of just sending the 10lb (at most) top and the maybe 2lb seal plate which is under warranty back to IH for replacement???

Because it may be a simple problem with a simple solution (like 5 minutes on a lathe). It requires however that one understand the problem, instead of behaving like an american consumer (SEND IT BACK !!!!).

In case you missed it, I SUGGESTED that one try the fitup of the different parts out in the open, where one could see (and feel) what is going on. Trust me, if there is a problem, you will subjectively pick it up when your not having to fight the weight of that entire cover etc. Put aside your prejudice and try it out if you don't have your spindle back together yet.

Here is an observation: Anytime you find 2 seals back to back, there is a history of failure. Yes, it might be a cheap seal. Just remember that people like me engineer systems so that the same seal lasts 150-300k miles on the crankshaft of your engine with failures less than 1 in a thousand.

Sorry if I mixed up you with someone else, but there were at least 2 posters who did have smashed seals without any work being done on their spindle. I have noted the mud slinging going on in the ISO30 thread and I don't think I have done anything to justify comparison with that mess.

kimoyo
07-21-2007, 12:03 AM
Because it may be a simple problem with a simple solution (like 5 minutes on a lathe). It requires however that one understand the problem, instead of behaving like an american consumer (SEND IT BACK !!!!).
Lol, and you own a Bridgeport clone.

Why do you keep saying there is a solution when there is no problem with the stub. Your making up a non-workable solution to a problem with a stub that doesn't exist. If the stub had a problem, fine, but it doesn't even have a problem!

Again, lets hypothetically say there is a problem with the stub (which there isn't). You would either have to mount the entire top on the lathe and spin it, which I don't know how you would do easily, or you would have to take the driving gear with the stub out and put it back in when done. Neither of those two options would take 5 mins. Looking at the top I don't even know where to begin to do that. But then again I'm not a machinist (I don't even own a lathe), but then again you don't even have a mill head to look at. Now something that would take 5 mins would be to pack it up in a box and exchange it out, but thats the cool thing about having a warranty on something.

Again, the simplest solution to mattinaustin's issue could have just been more grease.



In case you missed it, I SUGGESTED that one try the fitup of the different parts out in the open, where one could see (and feel) what is going on. Trust me, if there is a problem, you will subjectively pick it up when your not having to fight the weight of that entire cover etc. Put aside your prejudice and try it out if you don't have your spindle back together yet.

Maybe I haven't explained this well enough the previous 2 times or maybe you just don't understand. The centering depends on two things, the top and the head of the mill. In the head of mill there is cylindrical opening (I'll call it spindle housing) where the spindle sleeve (which holds the spindle) fits in. You drop the spindle sleeve all the way down and then you put the seal plate on it. The seal plate is centered over the spindle housing. The stub you are obsessing over is mounted on the top (hopefully centered over the spindle housing), and then the top is mated to the mill head. This aligning process has to be done in the mill head because you can't remove the spindle housing which is part of the casting. Thats why they have the two rods coming out of the top and give you about 6mm (almost 1/4" for us Americans) of aligning room so it can be self aligning. As long as you keep the top horizontal while fitting it back on it there and let it down easily, there shouldn't be an issue. I'd prefer not to explain that again.

keitholivier
07-21-2007, 12:52 AM
Paul, there are 2 things about your rant that upsets me.

1) You are hijacking this thread which is about damaged seals and oil leaks, even though you don't have this problem yourself and you apparently have no interest in possible cause and effect.

2) You do not deny the fact that other users have had legitimate problems with their seals, yet you are not prepared to spare a moment to apply your imagination and reason to try to work out what caused the problems in the first place. If a seal is damaged, there is a reason for it. Just replacing the seal provides no security that the seal will not be damaged again in the assembly process or in operation. Why is that so hard for you to understand ?

Yes, you have gone through the motions of replacing your apparently good seals, but what does that help anyone ?

How about the possibility that the dowels (rods as you call them) may not be in the right position on some of the heads ?

How do you KNOW that there is no issue with the lead in on some users drive gears ? Were talking chinese variability here.

How do you KNOW that the drive gear was not misaligned on initial assembly, since it will engage before the dowels (err, rods). I'm not talking about final position with everything snugged down, I'm talking about first contact when the shaft has to enter the seal. If something wil get sheared off / deformed that is when it happens.

Quit treating this like a pissing match and make a positive contribution that goes beyond "repair by substitution". I know that may be the way auto mechanics and other industries work today, but that is working at the expense of the consumer, not working smart.

kimoyo
07-21-2007, 01:31 AM
Ifs, Ifs, Ifs, Ifs and no facts. The fact is that IH sells hundreds of these mills with no issues. I've personally seen about 5 of these mills running with no issues.



1) You are hijacking this thread which is about damaged seals and oil leaks, even though you don't have this problem yourself and you apparently have no interest in possible cause and effect.

Lol, I'm in the IH support forum and I brought back this thread to talk about how swapping out the seals went for me and I'm hijacking. You don't even own an IH and all your talking about is the random and remote possibility that a stub isn't beveled properly. Futhermore, the guy who did have an issue solved it long ago with some grease and new seals. Lol, its funny.

Now I've given a legimate reason why mattinaustin's (the one who had the issue) mill was leaking. Take a look at this picture of matt's seal before he swapped it out.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=25214&d=1162699667

On the real, to me it doesn't even look damaged. I really would have slapped some grease in there before I changed it out. I really don't see the wreckage of the seal that you are talking about. So before you respond again and go off on your own rant, does that seal in that picture looked damaged to you? I've given a reasonable reason why the issues could have come about and you still have not responded about it after 2 replies. And maybe before you reply, you should try to remember that mattinaustin already solved the issue with some grease, he solved it already.

As far as the rest of your last post, its just garbage designed to confuse people who don't know better and take attention away from the simple issue and solution that was already found. If there were issues with mattinaustin's stub or dowels (thanks for telling me that) the same issues would have manifested themselves again. Like you said, replacing the seals and adding grease wouldn't have fixed the problem. But since he didn't take any stub out and turn it on the lathe, he didn't re-cast the iron mill head, please answer me this. Why is it that the leaking stopped when all he did was add some grease and change the seals? Umm, could it be that the mill head is fine and it just needed more grease?

So please continue to circumvent the simple and obvious issue/solution and continue to explore random, remote and unsupported issues in a support forum for a mill you don't even own in an attempt to do I don't know what. For me, I've taken my mill head apart and put it back together so I know better now. Thanks for an interesting conversation.

keitholivier
07-21-2007, 10:26 AM
Guidelines for shaft end design. Note the 15-25 degree maximum chamfer angle and the notes on the finish requirement.
http://www.afmusa.com/doc_generator.asp?doc_id=753

Guideline for assembly. Theoretically, due to the fit between the internal splines of the drive gear and the external splines of the spindle, alignment should not be a problem. Which is why I harp on the first point above. I'm assuming that the spindle is fully raised and locked prior to trying to drop to top cover back in place ?
http://www.afmusa.com/doc_generator.asp?doc_id=756

Paul, since you obviously think I'm an idiot, I am going to ignore your responses, for the sake of others who may actually benefit from my knowledge. I'm not sure what kind of image you think your painting of yourself when you think that pressing a gear out of a bearing is a big deal or that someone should chuck the entire cover and gear in order to turn a chamfer, or that any of my suggestions are "scary and complicated". Try lifting and defusing landmines for a year in Angola, where 50% of the kids have only 1 leg because the other one got blown off. That might help you redefine complicated and scary and yes I will admit that even I was scared often...

IHCNC
07-21-2007, 12:00 PM
Our head has a simple upper seal design. It has no relationship with the head cover-upper bearing support, therefore no machining would ever be needed. Remove the cover, remove 3 bolts on the seal plate, remove the seal plate, remove the seal as Paul described and then reassemble the seal plate and head cover with a little sealant. Grease the seal and shaft as you go along. I have never seen a leaky seal, but it looks like from the photo that the seal may have been damaged on the initial assembly.
IHCNC
Gene

keitholivier
07-21-2007, 01:15 PM
Gene, looking at the guideline above, for a 15-25 degree lead in to assist successful assembly, it means that the chamfer would have to be between 4mm and 7mm long axially. It is not uncommon for chamfers like this not to follow the recommendations of seal manufacturers and the result is a greater number of damaged seals on assembly.

There is nothing complicated about this at all. If someone finds that the seals in their machine were damaged during assembly, one needs to ask the question "What am I going to do differently to the original assembler, that will guarantee the success of this job ?"

Remember that in the factory, the seals that were installed were almost certainly good seals. The method of assembly, alignment etc is the same as what the final user has. So why didn't it work out ?

I suspect that there is little attention paid to the geometry of that lead in on the nose of the gear. What seems like an insignificant detail can cause a lot of trouble on assembly and I have seen this hundreds of times already on all kinds of products.

My proposal to fit the replacment seals into their carrier and then do a trial fit of the seal over the nose of the gear out in the open is something that shouldn't take more than a minute and the thing is that one can do a subjective evaluation of how smoothly the shaft engages the seal. If the seal gets caught and the lip wants to rather fold over than expand and slide over the shaft, it is a sure sign that that chamfer is probably not right.

I find it hard to understand why anybody would refuse such a simple test prior to doing the full assembly. The worst thing that can emerge is that one may need to pull the drive gear and improve the quality of the lead in on that edge. Anyone who has a lathe could accomplish this in a few minutes, and forever after know that they will not have damaged seals again in the future. Maybe from your perspective as the importer, it is understandable that you would rather not have everyone tinkering with components inside the head. Helping those who have recurring problems is what I was trying to achieve, and ultimately solving these issues will improve the reputation of the product.
Keith

kimoyo
07-21-2007, 03:09 PM
Gene, looking at the guideline above, for a 15-25 degree lead in to assist successful assembly, it means that the chamfer would have to be between 4mm and 7mm long axially. It is not uncommon for chamfers like this not to follow the recommendations of seal manufacturers and the result is a greater number of damaged seals on assembly.

Waitttt a minute, slow down there big boy. No one responds to you and you start going on a tirade. I'm saying tirade because thats what you doing. Your trying to trash IH for no reason, or maybe your a competitor, or maybe you are just Philbur. The simply fact is Gene has just said, out of all the mills he has sold, not one leaked oil. Your really trying to just find something wrong with the mill with no proof and just slander and its disgusting.

I see your 15-25 number over there, how do you know the bevel isn't in that range?? Are you basing your number on the measurements I said?? Someone who isn't even a machinists!!!!



the stub goes from a 32mm diameter to a 35mm diameter in 3mm. So now you have 6mm's to put the stub in the hole.

Because now that would be a really stupid thing especially if you did work in this industry. Do you know how I took those measurements, lol?? I used a ruler, on a bevel!! so believe me when I say I was guesstimating!! I didn't even give you the hypotenuse, I gave you the height.

Now lets assume the stub was created properly because why shouldn't we!!!! when of the 100 or so mills Gene has sold not one has leaked. And if you want to include Aaron in that, what 1 out of hundreds literally!! And the one was fixed in about an hour! Both of those are near perfect percentages. So lets go to the most obvious mistake, 1mm is close to a 1/32, the ruler I used doesn't even have 32nd's let alone 64's. 1/2mm off in either of those numbers puts you smack in the middle of your 15-25 region and believe me I was rounding.

How can you based your arguments on measurements taken with a ruler that doesn't even have the precision your arguing over. Seriously, did you really work in this industry? So before you go one another rampage, why don't you actually buy a mill and do some measurements yourself. Or how about you take the trip over to IH and see what your bashing. But just coming in this forum for the purpose of trashing IH is very poor.

kimoyo
07-21-2007, 03:20 PM
My proposal to fit the replacment seals into their carrier and then do a trial fit of the seal over the nose of the gear out in the open is something that shouldn't take more than a minute and the thing is that one can do a subjective evaluation of how smoothly the shaft engages the seal. If the seal gets caught and the lip wants to rather fold over than expand and slide over the shaft, it is a sure sign that that chamfer is probably not right.

Dude, you have no idea what your talking about. I've said it several times, how do you proposed to get the spindle housing out of the mill head when its cast iron and part of the mill head? You've not replied. What your saying make no sense at all.

And we already know the stub wasn't the issue with mattinaustin's leak. Because if it was, the problem would not have been solved with a new seal and grease. Why can't you understand that?

keitholivier
07-21-2007, 04:59 PM
You are such a dunce. Is that thing in MattAustin's hand not the seal carrier ? And how hard do you think it is to take that piece and slip it over the nose of the drive gear that is conveniently sitting on the top cover,which is lying on the top of the bench ?

You don't know how to use a lathe. Your head hurts and you get scared if you have to try to figure out what a specification means. And you can't measure to even 1/64th. Besides that you cant even do a bit of trig. I bet you have never designed anything that has ever been mass produced.

Your ownership of the IH mill proves that you have a bank account and a credit card. So has Britney Spears and she can afford a few more mills than you.

Ignorance CAN be cured but stupid is forever.....

And that is my LAST contribution to this thread. Rejoice !

kimoyo
07-21-2007, 06:59 PM
You are such a dunce. Is that thing in MattAustin's hand not the seal carrier ? And how hard do you think it is to take that piece and slip it over the nose of the drive gear that is conveniently sitting on the top cover,which is lying on the top of the bench ?

I already know the outer diameter of the stub, I know the inner diameter of the seal because I just brought it. All putting the together these two outside of the mill, where the plate isn't rigidly attached to anything and the top isn't attached to head will show is that the seal is sized right for the stub. It shows nothing about alignment inside the mill, you've just shown nothing. In fact I just did what you said downstairs and it showed me nothing new.

And what is your point? You want to do this check, which proves nothing but you can order the right products, to mess around with something that has 0% failure rate with Gene.

Gene just said in a few post ago that this has nothing to do with anything. Yet your still talking about something and throwing insults. You can't prove anything so you've just resorted to blatant name-calling with no substance. Good your not posting here anymore, move on troll!

philbur
07-21-2007, 10:38 PM
Please don't drag me into this one.(nuts)

Regards
Phil


BTW Keith,

I see you registered this month, you wouldn't happen to be Philbur would you? You speak very similar and you even sign your name the same way with the 'regards' thing.

Paul

mattinaustin
07-24-2007, 03:41 PM
Hey,

Mattinaustin - I notice you had some issues with your quill bouncing up and down after you did this. Did you ever solve that? How far did you tighten the grub screws when you put them back on? Are they rubbing against the sleeve? Would the spring have anything to do with it? I was thinking it wouldn't but I realized that we might not tighten it back down as hard as the manufacturer does.

Thanks.

I am not sure if the backlash in the quill (I assume that is what the bouncing is from) is any different than before the seal replacement. It seems like it is worse, but I didn't really spend enough time before hand with the mill to really feel like I am being objective about it. I really tightened the spring to make sure that wasn't the problem...and it wasn't.

I spoke with Gene about this problem (who was speaking with Aaron) and we did try changing the phase of the plate on the left side of the mill that holds the horizontal shaft of the spindle pinion gear (I guess that is what it is). There are three bolts there and we theorized that it might be possible to rotate the plate and achieve a tighter interface to the spindle rack gear. However, I didn't notice any difference.

For now I don't do any plunge cutting without doing a lot of checking and re-checking to make sure the depth indicated on the fine control for the spindle is actually what the mill is cutting. For using a hole saw to cut thing wall tubing (fish mouth cute), I lower the mill head and lock the spindle for the cut...otherwise I get to much bouncing from the spindle which causes vibration that seems to be harder on the tool.

--Matt

Cruiser
07-24-2007, 04:03 PM
I'LL ADMIT TO SKIPPING AHEAD WITHOUT READING MOST OF THE ARGUING SO >>> From what i have gathered here, the spindle was removed from machine and seal replaced. I'll assume the nut and bearings were removed cleaned and reassembled, i'll assume the rest of it is up to par. So, with the locking mechanism snugged, and still moving with spindle, "read, grab long tool holder mounted in spindle and shake it". then i'd have to say remove spindle and apply more pre-load to the spindle bearings, if not properly loaded then shortly after assyemby and running in the bearings will be loose ! I experienced this as i had replaced bearings, and started loose and gradually tightened up one notch at a time till it stayed tight and no play yet spun easily. It ended up taking more than i would have considered to be suficient, my IH spindle is cooking up to 6,000 and has been doing so for sufficient hours to say that it is set and ready for the duration. I am running an angular contact on bottom and new replacement roller on the top. Initial failure was due to cast iron fine left in during assy which destroyed bearings and vaporized grease assuming of course there ever was any. as for the seal, mine was and is good. altho i did see lots of cast iron in gear box that could have easily eaten an otherwise good or properly assembled seal. I would have to suggest that the damaged seals were during assembly due to lack of cleaning and handling. With all that said, I'll go now and let you resume the arguing !

BrendaEM
07-26-2007, 09:40 PM
In reading this thread...

I wonder if there was anything about the method the mill was shipped that would allow the spindle workings to move under shock and their own weight, damaging the seals, and or castings.

Additionally, I would assume that a casting with minor porosity issues could be sealed by dissembling and degreasing the casting, masking off mating areas, and applying a coat of high temperature epoxy. The leak would have to be non-stress related.