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MIKINI MECH
01-04-2012, 07:17 PM
Happy new year to the CNC Zone community from Mikini Mechatronics.

We’ve had few requests to publically respond to comments and “straighten out” a few posts on this forum site. It’s not our place, in our opinion, to do so. We are here to help however, and after reading and reviewing many of these threads, we had some thoughts from the team we’d like to share.

1) We’re not perfect.

No manufacturer is (or supplier / company, individual, employee, …is ). However, we make a huge effort to build best in class tools that represent great value, and support them beyond expectations. If there’s an issue, we’re 100% committed to making it right.

2) Early generation machines, were, early generation machines.

Without question, Our first generation (2008 model year) machine drive and control systems proved to be less reliable than intended in customer use. They were based on systems in use to this day by low cost machine tools which had been modified at our direction and design and hardened by our suppliers -intended for industrial use.

Although component failure rates were low and thousands of hours of pre-release tests were performed, cumulative issue rates exceeded our internal standards in the field, especially in regards to overload and overvoltage protection.

We based the V1.0 systems on overload and over-voltage standards of commonly available drives and systems that are used in industrial machine tools today (150% overload for example and a 3HP system based on a 3HP off the shelf chipset). We reacted promptly and by early 2009 new systems were shipping in all 2009 MY machines.

Our second and third generation control and drive systems are clean sheet designs from a supplier of industrial control systems and have proven themselves in years of commercial service, worldwide.

We accomplished this by overbuilding substantially - for example our V2.0 standard spindle drive has a 400% overload, and is rated at 3HP and is based on a 5HP continuous drive system sourced in the USA). It’s nearly impossible to kill one of our second generation servo drives by overloading. Don’t take our word for it - our users document (online, directly, and in firmware results) that they apparently “try” on a fairly frequent basis – and have done so for years.

(boy, I hate to think how some of our users drive a standard transmission car). :stickpoke - Mostly kidding - turns out this is the reality of automated industrial tools - at least in this particular case)

3) Generally speaking, it's easier to find the complaints than real story.

Results show the systemic reliability of our Mikini V2.0 control and drive systems from 2009-2011 exceeds that of highly recognized industrial automation systems in use today from some of the largest suppliers in the world in our testing. In short, we’re extremely confident of our machines, and sub systems, performance and reliability. And we're not stopping here.

4) We continually work on improvements

We continue to “hunt” for higher performing and more reliable components, at reasonable costs. One of the “nagging” issues for any enclosed machining center (or severe duty automated IP54 + rated device) is electrical switch performance and reliability (in our case limit switches). We use Omron industrial switches, and are looking for better (though the same switches are used on $125,000 dollar class machines) . With 9 switches per machine, the chance for failure is greatly increased. Got ideas, let us know. We’re continually testing new switches.

5) We're 100% committed to our products and users.

We stood, and stand, behind all users and operators of all machine tools we have built to this day. For owners and operators of 2008 MY machines we extended warranty service to these at no additional cost, with no questions, years beyond term.

6) Be discriminating

Don’t believe everything you read or hear – good, bad, or indifferent. This is especially true online. There are a huge number of inaccurate statements from un-informed users of machine tools (independent of our machine or any other, inaccurate statements regarding fundamental issues such as power, torque, loading and machining calculations). Many of the threads here bear out these inaccuracies, others do not. It is our policy not to correct these in public forum. Feel free to contact us, or verify with any accredited source, these facts.


7) Learn as much as you can - Don't assume

Seek out as many sources of truly informed knowledge as possible. Be very wary of information from anonymous sources, or sources without (or weak) credentials. Don't make assumptions, or at least verify them once made.

8) Learning, especially self guided, is tough.

Be fully aware that attempting to operate any professional use tool, including a CNC machining center, without proper (comprehensive) training and understanding of system limitations and performance will be a challenging, and often times expensive, process. Even with proper and comprehensive knowledge (which takes thousands of man hours to aquire), expect some things to be challenging none the less. True for all sorts of professions.

9) We make a huge effort to remain customer focused.

We welcome and encourage users to get in touch with us at any time with questions, comments or recommendations.

10) Further to this ...

Tell us what you want. We’re strongly considering producing a machine (configuration of the 1610 platform) aimed at a segment of the market between the 1610L and bench-top machine for 2013, with lower longevity, cost, and features than the 1610L. We believe it would be suitable for most applications documented in these forums, and welcome input. Food for thought - if we get lots of input we'll make it a dedicated thread :

- Do you really need tenths absolute accuracy, or is say 1 thou ok ? Or does a benchtop more or less do what you need at 2-5 thou ? How important are thermal fits and other high precision applications ?

- How important is surface finish, relative to material removal performance ?

- How important is bearing life – is 2500 hours reasonable ? (out tests show some benchtops only go 500 or so hours, and the -L uses 5000 hour rated systems). Note that 2500 hours would be 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for well over a year of operation.

- How important is industrial safety compliance performance ? Is it okay to allow safety systems to be controlled by control software in your application ? Okay to take 3 seconds to shut down a machine or process ? Okay to be shutdown compliant 99.0 % of the time, not 99.9% ?

- How important are “accessories” – flood cooling, lighting, tooling shelves, trim, pendant control, etc ? (All standards on the 1610L)

Be Safe and Productive in 2012.

- Mikini Mechatronics, LLC
Watsonville, California, USA

slowtwitch
01-05-2012, 01:36 PM
Ahhhhh, still suffering from delusions of grandeur. Here is some advise, when posting on these forums, please post something constructive, something of value...a tip..maybe a how to..or maybe some schematics....But please do not come here tooting your horn, and insulting folks who happen to be hobbyist and to say that they are not capable of running your "Industrial Machine".

MIKINI MECH
01-05-2012, 02:55 PM
Our great apologies - didn't mean to insult anyone, and was trying to help.

Happy to assist - Any direct requests for particular how to's, tips, or information ?

Seems like spindle loading and performance is a topic (regarding our machines and many others in fact). Fair to assume this would be a welcome topic ?

Our last post was the direct result of a specific request to reply, as noted.

Also happy to not assist or post in these forums if this is requested and the consensus of the forum users.

We've also asked directly for input, if anyone wishes to share, on what their ideal machine would be. All thoughts are welcomed.

Again, Happy new year.

- Mikini Mechatronics, LLC
Watsonville, California, USA



Ahhhhh, still suffering from delusions of grandeur. Here is some advise, when posting on these forums, please post something constructive, something of value...a tip..maybe a how to..or maybe some schematics....But please do not come here tooting your horn, and insulting folks who happen to be hobbyist and to say that they are not capable of running your "Industrial Machine".

howecnc
01-05-2012, 05:14 PM
I for one encourage Mikini to get involved in the topics on this forum. Some of you may be hobbyists but that is no reason to not be professional. They are offering help and asking for input. What more could you ask for?

I have not ever waited long for a response when I have needed help or feedback. That includes weekends.

I also had a conversation with Greg Jackson from Tormach this week and we talked briefly about the Mikini. During that conversation Greg did say that of all Tormach's competitors Phil Cowley was the brightest one of all of them and thought he has really good intentions for his customers.

I have given Phil my thoughts on what could be better or different, maybe you guys should too.

slowtwitch
01-05-2012, 05:56 PM
I for one encourage Mikini to get involved in the topics on this forum.

I too encourage Mikini to post useful information....never said not to. I have told Mikini about thier issues...I have suggested ideas...

Let's start with some useful information.....How about we start with this one.... What is the pin out of the db9 connector from the spindle board to the main board??? May be helpful to some.... :)

mcphill
01-05-2012, 08:10 PM
Here are some of my initial thoughts...


We’ve had few requests to publically respond to comments and “straighten out” a few posts on this forum site. It’s not our place, in our opinion, to do so.

If it is not your place, who's is it?! Mikini IS the expert, if you look on the other forums most have posts from tech people in the company that is the topic of the forum. Many of the forums are even sponsored (with $!) by the company that is the topic of the forum. I can't understand why Mikini is not responding to each and every thread - there really are not that many...


We continually work on improvements

Do you communicate any improvements, or do each of use need to contact you individually to get an update on what they are?


We're 100% committed to our products and users.

How do you demonstrate this commitment? I agree Phil is very helpful 1-on-1 on a phone call, but that is a VERY inefficient use of his (and each of our) time!


There are a huge number of inaccurate statements from un-informed users of machine tools. Many of the threads here bear out these inaccuracies, others do not. It is our policy not to correct these in public forum.

What kind of policy is that? That stinks! You know incorrect statements are made and knowingly decline to correct it? That's almost a bad as knowingly spreading mis-information in my opinion. I really don't understand the stance that Mikini takes to sharing information. Why the "secrets"? Why not share more info? Why not post solutions for all to see?


Seek out as many sources of truly informed knowledge as possible. Be very wary of information from anonymous sources, or sources without (or weak) credentials. Don't make assumptions, or at least verify them once made.

There is ONLY ONE informed source on this machine, and they have clearly stated that they don't want to post solutions in a public forum... Crazy isn't it!


Tell us what you want.


A MUCH better manual.
Detailed information on each of the components in the machine.
An updated website.
FULL participation in a forum, somewhere. If not here, make one somewhere (on your own website?) that you can keep under control if you feel the need)
Updates on fixes that are ongoing to the design or to others machines
New products
Accurate descriptions on the website (my vise was not what was pictured, the fourth axis isn't pictured -I got info from another user, etc.)


That's my 2 cents... I may have more once I "think on it"...

MIKINI MECH
01-05-2012, 08:18 PM
Regarding posting internal pinouts - Seemingly simple request, and wish we could do exactly as requested. It's on a big poster in the shop along with the other definitions for manufacturing and service.

Let's start with some useful information.....How about we start with this one.... What is the pin out of the db9 connector from the spindle board to the main board??? May be helpful to some.... :)[/QUOTE]

- We do have a pretty simple answer though - Call us (see below for the long answer why we have to have you call).

We can also re-iterate what is on our specification sheets, which is the fact that our systems use PWM control for the spindle.

Happy to help as much as possible, but our hands are regrettably tied on publishing machine internal firmware, and internal control system inter-ties, as well as a handful of other information.

Schematics (Page 25 most cases), exploded views (Throughout), definitions, inputs and outputs are fully defined in the operators manuals, and labeled on the circuit boards and cabling on all 2009 forward control systems. This provides comprehensive information to input or output anything to or from the machine as originally manufactured and defined. We intend to build machines and systems that are as open source as possible in today's world.

Most other machine manufactures publish and label/document far less information, or even totally lock down the software for interfacing, and the signals into and out-of machines. Go take a look at just about any other machine and machine documents and then take another look at our systems.

Once within the control system, internal signals, printed circuit board layouts, and cabling schematics are considered proprietary information by the definitions we have to work within as a manufacturer.

This said give us a call - we'll gladly help you out to "troubleshoot" your system which we can, and frequently do, as a course of business. Just don't say a word about modifying anything, or requesting anything that could be construed as us "supporting" or "condoning" modifications - or use outside of "intended use" and we're good from our end.

Also note that we build semi and fully custom solutions for our machines frequently. Need help with a project - again - give us a call. Again, we're here to help and support our users 100%.

Note that there are substantial forces at work here, outside of our organization, that restrict our actions (and those of any professional manufacturer of goods and their respective suppliers).

Also note that the modifications documented to our machine tools on these forums expose owners to substantial liability from anyone who operates the machine tool in the future - even if you "don't think so". They also could present substantial liability to those who have documented and posted the information supporting these actions - no kidding.

In some cases when not dealing with insurance and/or facilities regulations and there is no intention of resale or other than owner operation, and a machine is being operated in a wholly owned facility (read no banks => insurance involved) - it [I]might be a reasonable risk that is incurred, as determined by the owner. However, it's not something to be taken at all lightly, ever. Don't take our word for it - call someone who can advise you.

Sorry - wish we lived in a different society as it relates to these issues .... Seriously - we're machine builders & engineers - not lawyers - and only deal with these issued because we absolutely have to. We would do nearly anything not to have to deal with this "stuff"

Keep the requests and input coming - we're here to help.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC

MIKINI MECH
01-05-2012, 08:50 PM
mcphill:

Thanks for the comments - detailed post, see comments below

If it is not your place, who's is it?! Mikini IS the expert, if you look on the other forums most have posts from tech people in the company that is the topic of the forum. Many of the forums are even sponsored (with $!) by the company that is the topic of the forum. I can't understand why Mikini is not responding to each and every thread - there really are not that many...

We're happy to, if requested

Do you communicate any improvements, or do each of use need to contact you individually to get an update on what they are?

Give us a call, or we're happy to communicate in any medium you wish - be it this site, our site, email, phone, etc

How do you demonstrate this commitment? I agree Phil is very helpful 1-on-1 on a phone call, but that is a VERY inefficient use of his (and each of our) time!

Have a proposal for more efficient customer service than direct, same day communication ?

What kind of policy is that? That stinks! You know incorrect statements are made and knowingly decline to correct it? That's almost a bad as knowingly spreading mis-information in my opinion. I really don't understand the stance that Mikini takes to sharing information. Why the "secrets"? Why not share more info? Why not post solutions for all to see?

It's not our place to act in this manner, in general. We're more than happy to share as much information as needed, within the restrictions the society places businesses (and individuals) in today. If the general agreement of the forum user's here is that we should be active and correcting user's statements, we're glad to assist. This has not seemed to be the case, to date

There is ONLY ONE informed source on this machine, and they have clearly stated that they don't want to post solutions in a public forum... Crazy isn't it!

We're happy to post, just ask


A MUCH better manual.
Do you have specific requests for what would be better in the manual itself ? We also have expanded pre-rigging and installation guides for 2012 machines, and are working on a "tips, tricks and hints" guide for new operators with helpful information that is not machine specific - where to get supplies, common questions, etc.
Detailed information on each of the components in the machine.
what form of detail as it relates to machine operation ?
An updated website.
On it's way... soon. Look forward to some interesting information on machine design principals and systemic and component performance
FULL participation in a forum, somewhere. If not here, make one somewhere (on your own website?) that you can keep under control if you feel the need)
We're happy to be present in this forum, if welcomed. We have not been welcomed in the past from some users. Our new site does not include a forum, but happy to entertain that as well
Updates on fixes that are ongoing to the design or to others machines
The mechanical design of the machine has remained unchanged since inception, and the electrical systems since 2009. 2012 MY machines will have minor differences which don't affect specifications, which will be on the new site.
New products
What's on your wish list ? We're all ears
Accurate descriptions on the website (my vise was not what was pictured, the fourth axis isn't pictured -I got info from another user, etc.)

Coming very soon on the new site

That's my 2 cents... I may have more once I "think on it"...[/QUOTE]
Great - keep it coming

We'll also post some of the new information in this forum, again, if welcomed by Consensus.

-Mikini Mechatronics, LLC

adorsett
01-05-2012, 09:07 PM
I'm interested in seeing a real CNC lathe to match the 1610L.

Thanks!
Andrew

mcphill
01-05-2012, 09:12 PM
This is an open forum, anyone can post what they want. It isn't a democracy and there is not "vetting" of posts. If you can respond to peoples issues and help via this forum, please do it! You don't need permission from ANYONE on this forum... That's kind of the whole point...

If you want votes, I vote less rationalization and more INFORMATION...

mcphill
01-05-2012, 10:35 PM
Every industrial machine I buy has the cut sheets and OEM information for every item that is built in to it. If you want to be "as open source as possible", how about providing those to your end users? At least for items not designed for Mikini, but even if they were designed for Mikini, providing information is NOT a grounds for liability of misuse or misapplication of that information.

For instance, it was recently posted that the stepper driver boards are from How-Mau CNC. The user kindly posted the document. Why isn't this information available on the Mikini site? Is it a secret? If so, that's not open source at all. If not, why isn't it available?

Who is the spindle from? Who is the spindle board from?

Can you provide the following specs on the spindle motor:

Resistance, in Ohms
Inductance, in milli-Henry
Ke - Peak, in Volts per 1000 RPM
Rated Current - Peak, in Amps
Number of Poles

Thanks in advance.

MIKINI MECH
01-05-2012, 11:21 PM
Every industrial machine I buy has the cut sheets and OEM information for every item that is built in to it. If you want to be "as open source as possible", how about providing those to your end users? At least for items not designed for Mikini, but even if they were designed for Mikini, providing information is NOT a grounds for liability of misuse or misapplication of that information.

Happy to provide component data sheets for items that are not proprietorially sourced, and even those that are, other than proprietary information. We then document and support the layout comprehensively. We also use very standard case and frame sizes everywhere possible.

For instance, it was recently posted that the stepper driver boards are from How-Mau CNC. The user kindly posted the document. Why isn't this information available on the Mikini site? Is it a secret? If so, that's not open source at all. If not, why isn't it available?

This is another inaccurate statement. This refers to a marketing firm that re-distributes common components. There are about a dozen manufacturers of step driven electrical drives that all use a more or less industry standard case and terminal configuration. The confusion is understandable however. The source we use builds specifically for our production, to our specifications. The source we use is proprietary.

Who is the spindle from? Who is the spindle board from?

No problem. Both standard and high speed spindles (drive, cartridge and motor) for the 1610L and standard spindle for the -LP have been engineered, manufactured and tested by Mikini Mechatronics. Motors are custom wound, drives are manufactured to our spec and assembled by Mikini Mechatronics, and we also assemble our own spindles. You can verify this by looking at our circuit boards if you wish. We don't stamp our spindles, but I guess we could if it was an issue. Our sourcing of bearings and chipsets is proprietary, as is the firmware and the circuit design. Other than curiosity - what's driving this request ?

Can you provide the following specs on the spindle motor:

We could. Again - Why ?. The only reason to have this information would be to connect to another drive or reverse engineer our drive. This said ..... If you're curious and motivated, not hard to figure out

Resistance, in Ohms
Inductance, in milli-Henry
Ke - Peak, in Volts per 1000 RPM
Rated Current - Peak, in Amps
Number of Poles

Thanks in advance.

What goal or project do you have in mind ?


- Mikini Mechatronics, LLC

slowtwitch
01-06-2012, 06:22 AM
Regarding posting internal pinouts - Seemingly simple request, and wish we could do exactly as requested. It's on a big poster in the shop along with the other definitions for manufacturing and service.

Let's start with some useful information.....How about we start with this one.... What is the pin out of the db9 connector from the spindle board to the main board??? May be helpful to some.... :)

- We do have a pretty simple answer though - Call us (see below for the long answer why we have to have you call).

We can also re-iterate what is on our specification sheets, which is the fact that our systems use PWM control for the spindle.


[I]Mikini Mechatronics, LLC [/QUOTE]

Nevermine :( I'll figure it out myself.

slowtwitch
01-06-2012, 08:56 AM
4) We continually work on improvements

We continue to “hunt” for higher performing and more reliable components, at reasonable costs. One of the “nagging” issues for any enclosed machining center (or severe duty automated IP54 + rated device) is electrical switch performance and reliability (in our case limit switches). We use Omron industrial switches, and are looking for better (though the same switches are used on $125,000 dollar class machines) . With 9 switches per machine, the chance for failure is greatly increased. Got ideas, let us know. We’re continually testing new switches.


- Mikini Mechatronics, LLC
Watsonville, California, USA [/B]

I had a homing switch problem. So, I ordered a new one from Mikini for about $80.00. Sadly, when it arrived it was totally different than the ones in the machine. By that I mean that the physical size was different. I had to make a new mounting plate to get it to work.

When another switch failed, instead of sending $80.00 to Mikini and having to make new mounting setup. I ordered 9 new proximity switches off Ebay for about $6.00 each. They were the same size as the original ones. They have been working smoothly since install. Plus, their repeatabilty is very good. :)

howecnc
01-06-2012, 09:55 AM
Could you put up the make and model of the proximity switches you bought?
I would like to check them out and also see what the differences are compare to the originals.

Thanks

MIKINI MECH
01-06-2012, 09:59 AM
Please contact us with details of the switches you've had positive luck with, and the issues you ran into with a switch we supplied.

As noted, we're always looking for better solutions. At over $50 cost each the current switches which have been in use since 2009 (Feel free to look them up on digikey) are not inexpensive.

You're indicating a $6 switch is performing at a level exceeding your needs. To re-iterate - We're very interested in this, please do get in touch with details.

Incidentally, we sell the switches we use for the same cost as digikey - ~ $56, and have done so since starting to use them. Perhaps you had one air-freighted ?

We believe it would also be helpful for users to post the context of a situation regarding machine details and history when commenting on a subject. For example the intended project or part detals, code/tooling/fixture/material in use, model year of the machine and/or serial, and history of use as far as known, location, installation specifics, any special order customization performed, user changes, etc.

-Mikini Mechatronics, LLC


I had a homing switch problem. So, I ordered a new one from Mikini for about $80.00. Sadly, when it arrived it was totally different than the ones in the machine. By that I mean that the physical size was different. I had to make a new mounting plate to get it to work.

When another switch failed, instead of sending $80.00 to Mikini and having to make new mounting setup. I ordered 9 new proximity switches off Ebay for about $6.00 each. They were the same size as the original ones. They have been working smoothly since install. Plus, their repeatabilty is very good. :)

slowtwitch
01-06-2012, 10:39 AM
Could you put up the make and model of the proximity switches you bought?
I would like to check them out and also see what the differences are compare to the originals.

Thanks

I just did a search on Ebay for proximity switches. Then narrowed my search to bring up the lowest cost items first. You'll find a slew of switches in various configs. Mind you, theese are from China, but, I feel the Onron's are made there too. It's been a while since I made the transsition, but i'm pretty sure I used an NPN switch.

If I have some time I'll pull one out and double check.

mcphill
01-06-2012, 11:07 AM
I am trying to troubleshoot speed dropping issues at low speed and low torque operation at low speed. I have NO interest in reverse engineering your drive. Truly. I am curious, and I am motivated, and I will figure it out on my own if I have to. But you are committed to your customers, and you want to be as open source as possible, so I thought I would give you a chance to help out your customer base. How about it?

Once again, can you provide the following specs on the spindle motor:

Resistance, in Ohms
Inductance, in milli-Henry
Ke - Peak, in Volts per 1000 RPM
Rated Current - Peak, in Amps
Number of Poles

Thanks in advance.

mcphill
01-06-2012, 11:31 AM
We believe it would also be helpful for users to post the context of a situation regarding machine details and history when commenting on a subject. For example the intended project or part detals, code/tooling/fixture/material in use, model year of the machine and/or serial, and history of use as far as known, location, installation specifics, any special order customization performed, user changes, etc.

-Mikini Mechatronics, LLC

What will the poster get in exchange for all this information, other than a request to call you directly to get more information? You made about 10 (I didn't count, so if it is 7, you can go ahead and call me out for spreading more misinformation) posts in the last 12 hours and I don't believe you have provided any new information yet - other than the price you charge for the limit switches. Is that right? In that same time, you have requested NUMEROUS times that posters contact you directly to discuss further. Maybe you don't understand the whole point of a forum. It is for OPEN EXCHANGE of information, and it is here to document for all to see and for all to learn from. This way, if a user has a similar problem in the future, they can attempt to learn about and potentially fix an issue without having to get in touch with Mikini on what may be a common issue. It is a learning opportunity for the end user, and it is becoming clear it is a learning opportunity for Mikini as well.

May I suggest Mikini go to the Tormach forum, and observe how that company is able to interact with its customer base to provide a healthy dialog and open exchange of information? Tormach PCNC - CNCzone.com-The Largest Machinist Community on the net! (http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormach_pcnc/)

There you can see that instead of "call use so we can talk 1:1", Tormach takes the approach of opening up and almost "sponsoring" end users helping each other!

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/mentors_apprentice_locator/91964-consultant_network_tormach-post681115.html#post681115

If you want to see more of their interactions directly with their end users, have a look at their individual posts:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/search.php?searchid=7256150

Now, clearly the number of users on the Tormach forum is a goldmine for them as well. They have MANY users posting and many different users at different skill and competence levels. But guess what, it isn't just a goldmine for Tormach, it is also a goldmine for Tormach's end users. Their users are providing each other troubleshooting, upgrade, and improvement information (without the fear of the liability issues that Mikini seems to have). This is the type of exchange that I would love to have on this board, and the reason that I had the CNC Admins set up this area specifically for Mikini. It is also the reason I pointed Mikini to this forum - to assist its customer base and provide a positive experience. This positive experience could then be used to leverage in to new customer sales, building further participation on the forum, and leading to a win-win for all of us. Seems a pretty clear path/progression to me. I am sorry, and sad, to see that it appears Mikini is no "on board" with such an approach.

I am glad I don't have to call Ford any time I have an issue with my truck. I can troubleshoot on my own, I can go online and learn a ton, I can make modifications as I want to, and I can even blow the motor all on my own if I do something wrong. At the end of the day, I can then even take it to a Ford certified dealer if I want to, and pay them to fix all my screwups. That's the "relationship" I want to have with the OEM of whatever I buy, whether it is a truck or a CNC machine. I don't see them differently.

MIKINI MECH
01-06-2012, 12:04 PM
Great, thanks for the input.

Please see dedicated thread on the topic. We would greatly appreciate further input.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC
I'm interested in seeing a real CNC lathe to match the 1610L.

Thanks!
Andrew

MIKINI MECH
01-06-2012, 12:08 PM
Great, if you have the time, we'd love the input.

Manufacturer and part number should be all we'll need.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC


I just did a search on Ebay for proximity switches. Then narrowed my search to bring up the lowest cost items first. You'll find a slew of switches in various configs. Mind you, theese are from China, but, I feel the Onron's are made there too. It's been a while since I made the transsition, but i'm pretty sure I used an NPN switch.

If I have some time I'll pull one out and double check.

jid2
01-06-2012, 02:08 PM
I had a long post, but I'm going to shorten it.

I'm looking for a CNC machine of this size and capability to use at work, which is a world class product development and design firm. This machine is very well put together on paper and has excellent details. Great work on that.

But, you appear to have a quality control issue with your electronics, the ESD bag comment was insightful by one user, everyone uses them, they are pink, you put electronics in them - period. If you are not doing that, what else are you missing.

Your posture on this forum is defensive, and paranoid. I'm sure you have only good intentions, but this is how you are being perceived. These places are valuable ways to help promote and let the user base provide free support for each other. But they need a foundation of technical information and cooperation. I agree that you are talking - but adding no value to this section. Value is what people are interested in buying into.

Please don't get even more defensive. Simply answer peoples questions and share details about the machines that will help users keep them running and building cool stuff. The reference to the Tormach section is a very good one.

Best of luck in the new year, the machine does look very nice.

MIKINI MECH
01-06-2012, 02:56 PM
Great, happy to help. We're here to provide just what you request in service in regards to your truck, and will be more helpful than most "dealerships" would be with information, within the limitations of our liability policy.

If you contact us with a service request, we'll gladly help you troubleshoot your standard spindle servo drive, and if needed perform a bench test and load verification. We don't require our customers to do so other than very simplistic tests (operational tests and notation of load at idle for example). Analysis of a servo drive is a fundamentally complex task, especially a high speed, high data rate, brushless one. Working around the operating DC bus also requires great caution.

Note that there is no charge for drive service in warranty, and we've done so for owners of second hand machines and out of warranty machines at no charge as well as a customer service.

A point of information :

It's highly likely that you're witnessing low power at low speed vs low torque at low speed. Totally different issue. It's clear some users expect ~ 3 HP at low RPM from attempted applications. This is inconsistent with documentation in every user's guide of torque limits.

Low speed, high torque (relative to it's torque at maximum speed) is not what any modern machining center drive does (This is more like a drill/tap center with a transmission and specific machine configuration). If you somehow managed to get this by modifying one of our machines, which we specifically prohibit, you'll rip the machine apart in a short period of time. Machine structures, bearings, and systems are sized to thrusts and torques, not constant power.

In layman's terms - High precision, high speed, high resolution, servo drive machining centers are not drilling centers or presses - and have very substantial drive and structure/component differences. (you'd also rip apart a 4000 lb, $60,000 machine, if modified in a similar manner for reference). Something like trying to use a 400 HP ford raptor F150 to do what a 400 HP peterbuilt is intended to do to get back to your truck note.

That said - on to the troubleshooting request for information. Note that this information is specifically intended only for use in troubleshooting :

An important safety note before continuing. DC is far more dangerous than AC. If you make a mistake working around the DC high voltage bus, it likely will be lethal. No second chances here like ~200VAC.

We'll reiterate in industrial compliant terms DANGER: DC high voltage is lethal. Be sure to have proper training and equipment if you choose to work around it. Do your research, and be fully trained and informed before attempting ANY work around these systems.

If you're interested in troubleshooting your drive individually, we'll also gladly assist you to do so as offered. It will require some very complex and high rate multi channel, high rate, monitoring equipment. You'll need to know voltage and current simultaneously for more than 10 channels of data, as well as data recording of an adjustable load and resultant RPM. If you have such equipment available, we'll help you to configure it.

An important note - you'll need a drive and motor system operating to test. Servo drives will not operate without closed loop feedback. Unlike an open loop AC VFD for example used in our high speed system, you can't just "turn on" a servo drive without a motor load, and correlating feedback signal. If you attempt to start a drive without proper connections (partially connected), you can defeat motor fault protections and destroy the drive output section instantly (but the drive's processor will know all about how it died ...)

So, in short you'll need to monitor :

- DC, 3 phases, voltage and current, from 0-320 volts, 0-30 amps peak.

- DC, 3 channels of sensor (hall) feedback and bus (5V) (common signal ground)

- AC, input, 2 lines to ground, 0-30 amps peak, 110V nominal each / 220V across.

- Earth Ground current (high rate)

- Motor case temp (low rate)

- Drive sink temp (low rate)

- Resultant RPM

- Variable Torque load capable of sinking 3.5 ft lbs at 5000 rpm continuous and peak loads of 7 ft lbs. (known/monitored brake load of ~ 2500 watts or better roughly and 4kw peak). This also needs to be low inertia and continuous but variable torque (5 lbs additional inertia or less).

Note that changing the rotary inertia on the drive, above maximum spec tool weight, could destroy the spindle and machine bearings if tested on the machine (as well as being hard on the motor and drive) - depending on other variables (rate of load, etc). Even 5 extra lbs of spinning mass has a huge effect. Using for example a 56 frame device that had ~ 25 lbs of rotating mass to absorb / transmit energy would be very destructive. Note that even a machining center of twice the size/structure/power may not be specified at 10 lb tool weight.

When setting up your tests, remember your monitoring needs to be fully isolated, and simultaneous to get the whole picture. Also note that these servo drives vary multiple variables simultaneously, per phase, to achieve the output regulation, so just looking at one channel, or phase, per time is not sufficient. This is several times more complex than say an "advanced" sensor-less 3 phase VFD, or brushed servo drive. In short, this is why the "noise" changes as the drive is loaded and unloaded. Think of it like a modern vehicle on cruise control going up and down hills, shifting, braking, and all the time protecting the vehicles systems.

Averaging or isolating any variable, such as voltage, frequency, or current, at low rate (even a few times a second) will not suffice to determine the whole picture either and likely will be very mis-leading. Additionally, To catch transients, data rates on electrical signals need to exceed 4 mhz per channel on the DC power & signal side (Signal rates approach 400 hz and you'll need to understand what is happening at this rate - so roughly 10x as fast).

In regards to questions about the motor :

Motors are Nema 48 frame and are custom wound.
2008 drives use 8 pole motors operating at 3500 RPM
2009-2011 drives use 4 pole motors operating at 5000 RPM

Also note that per your previous request, the front page of our website details the standard BLDC spindle development and manufacturing, and has done so since 2009.

For 2009-2011 1610L standard motors, Peak motor current is 30 amps. Peak rated continuous RPM is 6000 (we de-rate). Peak voltage is 320 VDC. Motor variables and winding is proprietary, and not required for troubleshooting.

There are 2 simple motor checks to perform however to troubleshoot :

1) output of the sensor feedback. Our 2009-2011 drives have red LED's, near the sensor connector, which give instant feedback without needing additional test equipment. All 3 sensors need to activate and de-activate properly as the motor rotates. At high rates, all three LED's will appear to be "on" but blinking at a very high rate.

2) Phase continuity - all three phases should be continuous. If not, you have a burned out phase (not common unless the motor has been run far over load/duty cycle and more or less melted).

Note that we have also built semi-custom -L servo drive machines of higher and lower RPM per customer specification as well (for applications such as working with ceramic materials).

Remember that AC and DC drives (standard and high speed) are not output / connection fault protected (and basically can't be in most cases) for protection against reverse polarity to DC or back feeding of current to signal lines between the motor and drive, or dead short in some configurations of cases. If your monitoring equipment causes a ground loop, you'll destroy at least the drive, and possibly the motor position (hall) sensor device, and possibly test equipment (some devices are not protected up to 320 volts DC at the amounts of current available). Pretty tough to destroy a motor phase, but it's also possible.

We pass along cost of our drives and parts, as with limit switches. 2012 pricing/cost for a standard -L spindle servo drive is $1345 USD, and has a core requirement. Motors are priced at $1085 and also require a core.

Realize that if we get a warranty claim, without additional data, that a motor or drive has been destroyed for a fault within this sub-system (between the motor and drive), we'll likely have to decline it. 2009-2011 drives are very, very well protected, if you operate/connect as intended.

We'll post some of the data on standard spindle drive performance for review, relative to similarly sized drive systems of other types that we have tested using the same equipment on our machines. Note that there are "graphs" out there regarding spindle performance that are mis-leading, likely due to lack of data on the particular components, sizes, and values being presented.

If it's of interest, we can also post some information on the fundamentals of drive technology and input signals, such as what the differences between an AC and DC servo, various types of open loop drives, etc. Very complex topic

Lastly, to comprehensively document the nature of events, we suggest you'll need about 100 hours of data, which is what we do in bench tests for spindle drive consistency. We suggest starting and stopping on a 20 minute cycle at 67% duty, and performing tests at at least 5 points of load and RPM (25 total points). Ideally, it helps to do so with an automated device.

We know a Ton about various drive and control systems, and more than happy to share, everything that isn't proprietary about how we produce or the exacting specifics that would be required to replicate our systems. We've got far too much time and money invested, and drive system finite detail specifics are a critical piece of core intellectual property that allows our machines to perform to the levels they do. No different for your new Ford truck, and it's components, for that matter.

Any luck on getting say transmission or ECU internal schematics and firmware from Ford ? Free dyno test ? :stickpoke (Just trying to keep it light and entertaining having been there ourselves on various other projects over the years ... please don't take offense.)

Let us know how we can help further.

To all - Have a great weekend - Be safe - Be productive (or not if that's the goal).

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC






I am trying to troubleshoot speed dropping issues at low speed and low torque operation at low speed. I have NO interest in reverse engineering your drive. Truly. I am curious, and I am motivated, and I will figure it out on my own if I have to. But you are committed to your customers, and you want to be as open source as possible, so I thought I would give you a chance to help out your customer base. How about it?

Once again, can you provide the following specs on the spindle motor:

Resistance, in Ohms
Inductance, in milli-Henry
Ke - Peak, in Volts per 1000 RPM
Rated Current - Peak, in Amps
Number of Poles

Thanks in advance.

MIKINI MECH
01-06-2012, 03:16 PM
Great feedback.

We fully understand the perception given by the complex limitations we have to work within. It's in our opinion, an unfortunate reality of the society we all live within, in this country.

We've also dealt with substantial breaches of intellectual property, within the industry in the past, as well as liability issues. In short, we've been there. For those manufacturers and companies who haven't in any industry, it's only a matter of time.

There are a huge number of assertions on these forums in regards to our organization (and we'll suggest, on any internet site, about any manufacturer, of nearly anything) that are either partially or wholly untrue. In many cases, we have email or hard documentation, directly to users that we could post to dispute exaggerations of facts. We don't believe it is professional, expected, or our place, to do so. Nor will you find Ford doing so - to continue the analogy used by another user. We're more than happy to help with any information that is helpful and of value.

We're not perfect, but we do strive to exceed industry norms, expectations and goals.

For example on ESD protection - There are years of history on the subject in our organization. We have and do use USD protective devices, storage and transport devices, and coatings on all of our electronics, since the inception of manufacturing. We did use ESD protective packing materials on customer warranty service claims for an extended period. We then split service shipments into "re-packed" and "returned as received", and analyzed the results, which were nearly unaffected. We've gone to re-packed across the board for warranty service, and as noted, are considering going back to re-packing, or perhaps even a call tag process in the future.

We would like to provide as much value to our customers, and the industry, as possible. We're all ears on what subjects, topics, improvements, etc, would do so. We encourage the long post if you have it.

Not attempting to be defensive in any way. Certain information we can share, and will gladly do so. Other information we can't, nor would any organization in our position. Not defensive, just the facts and limitations of our society.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC


I had a long post, but I'm going to shorten it.

I'm looking for a CNC machine of this size and capability to use at work, which is a world class product development and design firm. This machine is very well put together on paper and has excellent details. Great work on that.

But, you appear to have a quality control issue with your electronics, the ESD bag comment was insightful by one user, everyone uses them, they are pink, you put electronics in them - period. If you are not doing that, what else are you missing.

Your posture on this forum is defensive, and paranoid. I'm sure you have only good intentions, but this is how you are being perceived. These places are valuable ways to help promote and let the user base provide free support for each other. But they need a foundation of technical information and cooperation. I agree that you are talking - but adding no value to this section. Value is what people are interested in buying into.

Please don't get even more defensive. Simply answer peoples questions and share details about the machines that will help users keep them running and building cool stuff. The reference to the Tormach section is a very good one.

Best of luck in the new year, the machine does look very nice.

MIKINI MECH
01-06-2012, 04:22 PM
In a previous post, we offered to present spindle torque and output graphs to assist a user in understanding of a system. Attached is that documentation, which was prepared for, and will also be on our new website.

There are 3 graphs here and a chart.

- Load response

Load response details what happens to the actual operating RPM of a drive, when loaded on a machining center. Remember that axial drives will not compensate for spindle variation without a very advanced system, so any variance to load will affect thrust, axial load/power, surface finish, tooling life, and achieved precision.

You can feel this if you use a drill or saw and cut something with an AC, open loop motor. The motor changes tone, and the speed slows down. Same is true on an open loop spindle drive on a machining center. Servo drives "push back" by changing frequency, voltage, current, etc. If you fully overload an AC system, the drive, generally, does not know about the overload, and the motor stops and starts to melt ("locked rotor").

If you overload a servo drive, it simply shuts down (and in this case also tells our axial drives to shut down within about 1/100 of a second), protecting the machine from significant damage and loading from shoving a non-operating tool into "something".

- RPM vs Power

This is the actual difference between 3 different combinations of drives and motors. If you're wondering how a 1 HP AC motor with a 2 hp VFD drive (think bench top machine) compares to a 2 hp motor with a 3 hp drive (Think knee mill), to a 3 HP servo drive - here's the data.

This also is why AC machines with traditional drives often have narrower speed ranges, 2 speed controlled transmissions, or in manual machines - belts for multiple ratios. See where the torque starts higher up the RPM scale - this is what is being compensated for.

There are other graphs out there that compare BLDC servo and AC open loop motors that don't have data/details and appear theoretical.

It's true you could under-size a BLDC system and scale the axis to get the graph that has been presented. But take 2 systems that are around 20-25 lbs each, test, and you'll get this data. Otherwise the power density and constant torque characteristics make no sense (as a user has pointed out).

A linear power curve / constant torque, also allows the very simple programming (scaling RPM scales power) and is also ideal for machine, bearing, and precision/tooling life - as thrusts end up staying the same as intended.

You can run feed/speed 10/1000 20/2000 30/3000, etc (if the power demand of the application is linear) to prove out tooling, fixtures, etc. Basically less variables are changing at the same time as torque is constant.

These are the "power curves".

This should be well versed information, specific to a tool, for any machine tool operator and programmer, for any automated machine tool. Attempting to program a tool without comprehensive knowledge of a power curve is a hugely frustrating experience, as you're guessing at how much power/torque is available.

However, it's a common point of confusion in the industry. Scale things up, and things get more expensive fast.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/haas_mills/63247-spindle_power_curves.html

Yes - there are systems that are wildly expensive that will slow the machine down to compensate for spindle or axial loading. But it's not your typical machining center that will do so - think way exotic.

- Torque

Torque is how much "grunt" a system has at a given RPM ? Always the same for an advanced servo drive generally, and most at a "center" or "sweet" spot for most open loop systems. This also presents graphically what 5:1 or 20:1 or "linear" refers to (the flat top part).

If you had a transmission, you'd have multiple curves for each system at different ratios.

This is one of the strong suits of a brushless motor, as well as extreme life (no brushes to wear and replace all the time), and constant performance.

These are the "torque curves"

- Power density

More important than you might ever think. Who cares about 30 lbs on a device that weighs 2000 lbs ? Turns out it makes a world of difference to bearing life, selection for precision, and is a key driver of machine systemic design.

Helpful ? Confusing ? Indifferent ? Welcome any and all feedback.

---

Mikini Mechatronics, llc

Al_The_Man
01-06-2012, 05:02 PM
An important safety note before continuing. DC is far more dangerous than AC. If you make a mistake working around the DC high voltage bus, it likely will be lethal. No second chances here like ~200VAC.



ElectroMedical fact
It is not voltage that is lethal, it is current of the right level of any flavour.
100ma and over is considered lethal whatever the source.
Al.

MIKINI MECH
01-06-2012, 06:31 PM
That's quite accurate, and for AC, the current level is on the money.

Many people, even well trained in AC safety, have little knowledge of the hazards of HVDC.

Here's a link to what currents at various levels are noted to cause.

Ohm's Law (again!) : ELECTRICAL SAFETY (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_3/4.html)

And DC (direct current) presents dangers that AC (alternating current) does not, and affects the body in a different way. If you've ever gotten a low voltage/low current DC shock, you'll be very aware of how scary it is. Yes, a 12v car battery, can, and will shock you, if you have hands that are wet.

If you got a low voltage, high current shock, well, you would have nothing to say on the topic, ever again.

Safety manual from unm.edu (http://nnin.unm.edu/safety/Hi_Voltage_Safety.html)

Note the fact that DC will discharge to your bodies capacitance. Our drives will dump an instantly lethal current, though dry skin, even when totally disconnected from AC if not discharged. Check out the big capacitor bank ....

What is the maximum DC voltage, that is not lethal? (http://www.edaboard.com/thread74087.html)

read down a bit - focus on the post regarding DC voltages over 200V. System could be over 300V. Poor English in the post, but get the idea ?.

Very serious topic.

We fully understand it may come off as paranoia if you're not aware of the issues. We live around these systems day in and day out in production and R&D.

Anyone servicing our machine systems is required by our documentation and machine labeling to have proper knowledge of these topics, training, and safety equipment available, prior to attempting service. Attempting to do so without is beyond inadvisable. Information is often available for DC-HV safety surrounding issues of hybrid vehicle servicing and large scale solar installations for reference as well.

Be Safe.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC


ElectroMedical fact
It is not voltage that is lethal, it is current of the right level of any flavour.
100ma and over is considered lethal whatever the source.
Al.

mcphill
01-06-2012, 06:33 PM
VERY helpful, thanks. Not sure of the usefulness until I digest it longer.

I do have to say I don't believe the Torque Output curve presented. It just does not match with my "gut feel" experience. Can you suggest a way to challenge/test those values safely? My impression is the curve looks much more like the 1 HP AC Conventional shape shown in the graph (or maybe the 1.5 hp vector).

mcphill
01-06-2012, 06:36 PM
Sounds like all the more reason to post ALL the pinouts... In the name of safety.

Al_The_Man
01-06-2012, 06:37 PM
If you got a low voltage, high current shock, well, you would have nothing to say on the topic, ever again.


After 50+ years in the electrical/industrial electronic business I have lost track of the zaps I have had from just about every source there is. :rolleyes:
Al.

slowtwitch
01-06-2012, 07:00 PM
Looking at the new specs..Version 3. I see that you have changed the spindle board and motor.

MIKINI MECH
01-06-2012, 07:31 PM
The only place that DC HV is present in the system is on the 3 output pins of the spindle drives. Worth documenting this in the machine schematic as well as warnings on the physical drive itself, which is a good suggestion

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC



Sounds like all the more reason to post ALL the pinouts... In the name of safety.

MIKINI MECH
01-06-2012, 07:40 PM
We're not aware of a simple, low cost, safe, and accurate way to test what you are requesting.

We test our systems (and have done so of others) extensively to generate the data behind the charts we publish. We posted at length how the drive can be tested for input and output. It requires a huge investment in test equipment and setup, as documented. We're here to help, if you wish to do so.

If you wish to focus on the output side, testing could be done alone ignoring the input metrics. It will still require a constant torque brake, of less than 5 lbs inertia, with torque or ideally power (Rpm and torque) monitoring, capable of the amount of power dissipation at the rate (RPM), Power, and duty cycle you wish to test to. Essentially a low inertia, 5000 RPM, 3 HP+ dyno. The other issue is ensuring you don't damage spindle or axial bearing systems in doing so. Still not a simple thing to do.

We encourage you to verify the fundamental torque characteristics of a brushless DC drive, which will also confirm this "curve". Tons of information on the web, on the topic. It's possible to get a lower or higher torque for any system, but the "shape" of a torque curve is generated by the motor/drive physics in big picture.

"guessing" or "feeling" isn't a great measure here. Do be very aware that open and closed loop systems "feel" and "sound" very, very different under load. It's why we have not one, but two load meters on our control systems, each with important information (instant and average loads).

Imagine what would happen if your table saw had a servo drive, and never slowed down until you hit ultimate load. To take it to a little bit of an extreme, what if it even sped up as the stock was fed faster to keep the thrust into the saw the same (constant chip rate) ?. Other than if you had a load meter - you'd have - nearly - no idea of what the load applied to the drive was, as the operator. More you push, the more it would push back.

In an open loop, manual process, as an AC drive is loaded, it slows, makes different noises, the operator backs off, then allowing a drive to speed back up (operator is closing the loop). This is what we're used to on a drill press or a manual machine. Other than very, very complex CNC controls, this luxury is not afforded to the drive systems of an automated machine (unless the operator runs over and slaps feed hold or cuts the feed rate as he sees a load peg or hears an AC drive start to fail).

What it comes down to, is that the way to properly program and load a machining center is by the #, not by "feel" when it comes to spindle torque loads and axial drive thrusts. "Feel" is very important for other issues like harmonics, however.

The other thing to realize is the inertia and breakdown torque of various drive systems have very different "feels" and effects on downstream systems due to torsional vibration and stored energy. Whole different thing to have a 40 lb 6" armature spinning at 5000 RPM vs a 20 lb 4.75" one. Both systems could be rated at, and produce, the same 3 hp and torque.

In simple terms, all other metrics even, the energy from a larger (more massive, but same power) drive, would tear apart precision bearings rated for a smaller drive, even of the same power and RPM, in a very short matter of time.

Think of the torsional vibration gearbox requirements for a 100 HP diesel at 1800 RPM vs 100 HP turbine (just to book end things in extremes ...)

Helpful ?

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC





VERY helpful, thanks. Not sure of the usefulness until I digest it longer.

I do have to say I don't believe the Torque Output curve presented. It just does not match with my "gut feel" experience. Can you suggest a way to challenge/test those values safely? My impression is the curve looks much more like the 1 HP AC Conventional shape shown in the graph (or maybe the 1.5 hp vector).

Spinnetti
01-06-2012, 07:43 PM
Man, the internet forums are a hostile audience!

I found the original post refreshing. Having worked as a engineer and formerly machinist at a smaller company, I think it was the right balance of feedback. You'll never "win" arguing with people on the internet! One that that would be helpful however is a FAQ of issues and solutions that are of the highest volume.

I really like the look of the machine, but posts about spindle motor and drive issues, company size and lack of product depth has kinda scared me off. This thread will have me take another look before I decide....

MIKINI MECH
01-06-2012, 07:50 PM
Great feedback.

Would love more details on what more in "product depth" information you're looking for. Feel free to be in touch at any time.

Have a great weekend, to all

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC


Man, the internet forums (especially these sorts) are full of hostile people!

I found the original post refreshing. Having worked as a engineer and formerly machinist at a smaller company, I think it was the right balance of feedback. You'll never "win" arguing with people on the internet! One that that would be helpful however is a FAQ of issues and solutions that are of the highest volume.

I really like the look of the machine, but company size and lack of product depth has kinda scared me off. This thread will have me take another look before I decide....

Spinnetti
01-06-2012, 08:00 PM
Great feedback.

Would love more details on what more in "product depth" information you're looking for. Feel free to be in touch at any time.

Have a great weekend, to all

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC

What I mean is that you have from a "retail" standpoint just the one machine. I know your site says you do lots of custom stuff, but no matter how good the product, its a lot of money to spend for what is (for me) a toy, and not having a fuller product line makes you more vulnerable to market fluctuations. Not trying to imply anything, I just want to be real confident that 5-10 years from now, I can still get parts and/or service....

That said, I really like a lot of what you have to offer, but that won't fit through my shop door. can the upper bit get unbolted and taken off to fit through a standard doorway?

By the way, your website really needs an update (price doesn't match page to page, future releases listed as 2009 etc...) - its your public face; a good website means a lot!

MIKINI MECH
01-06-2012, 08:29 PM
Thanks for the feedback. A new website is very close, and we're excited about the new content and features.

Great question regarding installation. We don't recommend dis-assembly of our machining centers. They are designed to fit (just) through a 36" door, fully assembled, sideways. Note that other machines with similar travel are even wider - the packaging design is very tight in other words.

This said, we've helped many customers deal with custom rigging solutions to drop through floors and ceilings, or through door frames with modifications. We have overhead lift kits, vertical power drops, and will help you meet your needs anyway we can.

What's the clearance you're trying to achieve for the "standard" doorway ?. Many doors are 36, but there's everything from about 30"-42" in the industry. There are even 48" and 28" doors, but those become less common, pretty fast.

Also note that you'll need either an industrial or solid slab floor for operation and installation of our machine tools due to static and dynamic floor loads. Industrial floors may and generally do require a load spreading device/struture. Generally, not worth considering installation of any machining center on anything less than a 70 lb/ft engineered floor - and even that takes some serious work and we highly recommend review of/by a structural engineer.

Great leader on the subject of application, and would love comments on what's important for your needs, and what's not as much. We're looking at a third version of the 1610 platform targeted below the -L for 2013.

We have the second version of the 1610 series machine (-LP) coming out for 2012, and it's on the price lists on this site, and will be on the new website as well. It's a higher production version of the L with an ATC and the optional axial servo drives standard.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC


What I mean is that you have from a "retail" standpoint just the one machine. I know your site says you do lots of custom stuff, but no matter how good the product, its a lot of money to spend for what is (for me) a toy, and not having a fuller product line makes you more vulnerable to market fluctuations. Not trying to imply anything, I just want to be real confident that 5-10 years from now, I can still get parts and/or service....

That said, I really like a lot of what you have to offer, but that won't fit through my shop door. can the upper bit get unbolted and taken off to fit through a standard doorway?

By the way, your website really needs an update (price doesn't match page to page, future releases listed as 2009 etc...) - its your public face; a good website means a lot!

slowtwitch
01-08-2012, 07:43 AM
Regarding posting internal pinouts - Seemingly simple request, and wish we could do exactly as requested. It's on a big poster in the shop along with the other definitions for manufacturing and service.

Let's start with some useful information.....How about we start with this one.... What is the pin out of the db9 connector from the spindle board to the main board??? May be helpful to some.... :)

Most other machine manufactures publish and label/document far less information, or even totally lock down the software for interfacing, and the signals into and out-of machines. Go take a look at just about any other machine and machine documents and then take another look at our systems.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC [/QUOTE]

Here is an example of a nice owners manual

http://server2.smithy.com/media/pdf/SmithyCNC%201240%20Manual%202008.pdf

It even has the pin outs for thier spindle connections :)
__________________

jid2
01-08-2012, 12:53 PM
Man this is painful. I feel for you guys. I'm out.

MIKINI MECH
01-09-2012, 02:46 PM
Please contact us if you need assistance interfacing with one of our machine tools.

Note that the last pages of our operators manuals include a full machine schematic, and interface pin-outs (or pin-"ins"), for all functions, including spindle control.

Perhaps this is missing or unclear for some reason for some users. It has been included in every revision of our machine's operators manuals since 2008. If it is, we're here to help.

For reference, here is a repeat of those values, found in our manuals. Sorry, the formatting allowed by this forum posting tool is not ideal.

These can also be confirmed (and are found in) our Mach 3 configuration files, which allow full configuration, and are not protected from user review in any manner. To reiterate, many other, but not all, CNC machine tools lock these files or configurations.

This supplied mach 3 configuration file will configure Mach 3 so that no translation of these values is required by the user (drop the file in Mach 3, load the profile, and you're all set). If you need a new configuration file, please contact us directly and will will provide you with file for your machine.


PIN No. ---- NAME / FUNCTION
1 XDRI ---- X AXIS DIRECTION IN
2 XCWI ---- X AXIS PULSE IN
3 YDRI ---- Y AXIS DIRECTION IN
4 YCWI ----Y AXIS PULSE IN
5 ZDRI ---- Z AXIS DIRECTION IN
6 ZCWI ---- Z AXIS PULSE IN
7 ADRI ---- A AXIS DIRECTION IN
8 ACWI ---- A AXIS PULSE IN
9 CLPI ---- COOLANT PUMP SIGNAL IN
10 XHOMEO---- X AXIS HOME SIGNAL OUT
11 YHOMEO---- Y AXIS HOME SIGNAL OUT
12 ZHOMEO----Z AXIS HOME SIGNAL OUT
13 AHOMEO A AXIS HOME SIGNAL OUT
14 CHPI ---- CNC MODE ENABLE SIGNAL IN
15 ESTOP -EMERGENCY STOP SIGNAL OUT
16 SDR ---- SPINDLE DIRECTION IN
17 SCW ---- SPINDLE PWM SIGNAL IN
18 DGND ---- GROUND
(all remaining pins Ground)


Again, if any user needs assistance, please feel free to contact us and we'll gladly provide support.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC [/QUOTE]

Here is an example of a nice owners manual

http://server2.smithy.com/media/pdf/SmithyCNC%201240%20Manual%202008.pdf

It even has the pin outs for thier spindle connections :)
__________________[/QUOTE]

SWATH
01-10-2012, 01:19 AM
Alright I've been busy with the newborn but I am finally going to post my thoughts.

First off, I'm delighted that Mikini has decided to have a presence on this forum, it is a very much needed and appreciated gesture. I'm not sure why they have never felt it their place to be here, but if not here where? I for one welcome active forum participation by Mikini, the more the better in fact and I hope they stick around.

My thoughts on Mikini are probably well known on this forum but allow me to summarize them as I believe many 1610L owners feel the same way. The machine is solid. It has good design, size, mechanics, enclosure, etc. Phil is a heck of a nice guy and I believe genuinely eager to help and I appreciate their ground up design and trying to supply customers with an affordable and capable CNC machine to allow some of us impetuous upstarts to take machining matters into our own hands without making a career out of being a machinist. I told people who suggested that I go to school to be a machinist or to work for some machine shop that Benjamin Franklin didn't discover electricity so he could be an electrician. My goal is not to be the world's best machinist, there will always be someone better than me. My goal is to make new things that no body has ever made before and this class of machine allows me to get started on that goal. It's a modest start but Steve Jobs did not start out buying an Ipod factory either.

This is not to say there are things that can't be improved on with the 1610L, major things. That major thing to me is the heart of the machine and that's the spindle. I've had nothing but problems with it and in fact have never had it working right. I've had my supply power/wiring checked by everybody I could get out to look at it and they all say it's fine and the machine electronics are the problem. First I had a problem with the spindle RPM dipping. This was fixed by Mikini replacing the control board, but also created new problems as my spindles' top speed when tuned is 3300 RPM. I primarily cut steel so I need power at the low RPM spectrum and this spindle just doesn't do it. I don't know if that is just the specs of the technology or another problem with the board but it sucks. It is very frustrating to use such an anemic spindle to cut steel due to all the spindle stalling a broken tools. A friend jokingly asked if I had considered upgrading the spindle to a Dremel to get more power. Also it doesn't change spindle speeds very accurately without fully stopping the spindle first.

These spindle problems are not isolated to just me, many on this forum have the same complaints. So after many many months of troubleshooting I am of the opinion that there is something wrong with electronics and should be investigated and fixed whether it be persistent QC issues or a systemic design flaw or the improper selection of technology. This spindle issue is killing us to the point where many of us are attempting to replace all of it with 3rd party stuff just to have a working and usable machine. It is definitely a major blemish that is seriously tarnishing an otherwise capable machine and company. I very much want to recommend this machine to others but I can't until these issues are dealt with promptly and effectively. I've had my 1610L for going on a year now and I've yet to make a single part I've set out to make due to the spindle. First because of the dipping RPM and now because of having no power at lower RPM. I too am seriously contemplating changing the spindle out because I NEED a capable and fully functional machine and mine is definitely not. I've not made much progress with Mikini and it had become more and more clear that I wouldn't.

slowtwitch
01-10-2012, 05:49 AM
Alright I've been busy with the newborn

Congratulations on the new arrival !!!!! Hope everyone is doing well :)

allenj20
01-11-2012, 10:22 PM
Every single person on this forum that owns a Mikini 1610L has had problems with their Spindle at one point or another as far as I know.

I have had my spindle board replaced 4 times in three years. I bought my machine in 2009. And in the first two years the spindle maybe worked 6 months of that time at best.

Then after doing a full retrofit of all the electronics to the V2 electronics I have a sort of working spindle that stalls if you look at it sideways at low RPMs.

Miknis says it's the fact that all of our electrons are not pure enough. I guess we need priests to come and bless our garages and to hang rosary beads on the pendants to keep the evil electrons at bay. I hope people are smart enough to see that for what it is. Caveat Emptor as they say.

I will say this for Phil he's good at not admitting he's wrong. And I don't think he's dumb either. What I cannot figure out is the machine is 95% there just the spindle sucks. Just admit you made a mistake in the design and fix it and stop all the finger pointing.

SWATH
01-12-2012, 12:08 AM
Allen,
When you had the v1.0 electronics did you have the low RPM power problem?

I think Mikini would be better off fixing the current spindle first than to develop new products for sale and then advertising them here. I'm just not sure why they won't fix it or at least look into it and release some kind of temporary fix anyway. This is beyond ridiculous. I can't even use my machine and haven't because I can't afford to keep chipping tools from spindle halts. I am positive there is nothing wrong with my power and if there was the Mikini electronics should be designed to handle it. There is without a doubt something wrong with the spindle electronics and must be fixed. Until then I would urge anyone contemplating buying a Mikini product to refrain from doing so until they fix this issue or you are asking for a major headache. When that happens and my machine is working I will talk about how awesome this machine is and how everyone should buy one, right now I just tell them to buy a Tormach.

allenj20
01-12-2012, 01:20 AM
Funny you should ask. I would not know as I never got past air cutting during the period that I had the 1.0 electronics because literally I would do a test cut in air come out the next day and find a completely dead spindle. It was so disappointing and frustrating only you guys here that have dealt with similar can probably understand. Most disappointing product purchase of my entire life.

I don't know about you guys but to me 12k is a lot of money. I went with the turnkey option because I wanted to get busy making parts for my small business. To have a 12k boat anchor for two years well it makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it. I could have done two CNC retrofits of the RF45 (the actual Taiwanese version) for the amount of time and money I spent on the Mikini not making anything. I finally bought my Bport clone to have something that actually works. It and my 14x40 lathe seem to like the electrons fine around here. As does my 3D printer and laser cutter. Only the Mikini seems to be very picky.

One thing to keep in mind is that I think all of us here would rather see Mikini succeed and the machines work. It is in our interest because we each made a rather sizable for us investment. And we have naught to show for it. The machines don't work right still and the resale value I am sure is in the basement. This is obviously not in our interest.

I think most people would be willing to give Mikini a second chance if they just did a mea culpa and said hey we screwed up and this is how we are going to fix it. Then simply follow through with the fix. It really is that simple but it would seem Phil is the type of person that is completely unwilling to admit a design or engineering mistake. :(


Allen,
When you had the v1.0 electronics did you have the low RPM power problem?

I think Mikini would be better off fixing the current spindle first than to develop new products for sale and then advertising them here. I'm just not sure why they won't fix it or at least look into it and release some kind of temporary fix anyway. This is beyond ridiculous. I can't even use my machine and haven't because I can't afford to keep chipping tools from spindle halts. I am positive there is nothing wrong with my power and if there was the Mikini electronics should be designed to handle it. There is without a doubt something wrong with the spindle electronics and must be fixed. Until then I would urge anyone contemplating buying a Mikini product to refrain from doing so until they fix this issue or you are asking for a major headache. When that happens and my machine is working I will talk about how awesome this machine is and how everyone should buy one, right now I just tell them to buy a Tormach.

MIKINI MECH
01-12-2012, 02:56 PM
1) A request : We’re here to help,any, and all users of our machine tools, regardless of age, source, or history of a particular event. We’ve spent a fair amount of time in the last week researching and cross referencing many of the anonymous claims made on this forum site, and we have realized that many of these claims were never documented or presented to us for resolution. If we don’t know about a problem or issue, we can’t fix it for the user, or log it and determine if it’s a consistent problem. We graciously ask that our users at very at very least keep us informed. We encourage all users to present the background information of machine history, identification, source, with all commentary (again, we suggest in a user’s signature) so comments are in proper context. In short - Please help us, help you, as much as possible.

2) Again, Be discriminating. For reference of all interested parties, this review also led us to believe there are individuals and/or organizations posting anonymously, unreported to us, consistently negative information regarding our organization and products. Those reading these forums should be fully aware of this, as well as the possible financial interests and motivations of other users of this site. We do not have paid advertisements on this site, nor have or allow aggressive sales representatives or tactics. We’ve also noted other users confirming these trends, independent of our views.


Quote: "Man, the internet forums are a hostile audience!"

Quote : "I found the original post refreshing."

Direct customer commend submitted recently : "“I'm enjoying the dialog on CNCZone. Don't let the one ahole run you
off.”"

3) We have very little, if any, control over how users install, service, and operate our machine tools. Many users on this site have documented applications and installations of our tools operating outside of specifications, indiscriminately. When we state a specification or limitation, we mean it. We have attached images and reference information regarding these documented limitations for review.

"SWATH : HA! 252V and it runs fine."

We know exactly what will happen here. Won't run for long. Did not for this customer, on his original, or warranty replacement drive. If it would, we wouldn't have the big red warning stickers, or limitations in our operators manuals in multiple places, on schematics, and specification sheets.

From all 2009+ Mikini user's guides, page 7: "Voltage must never exceed 250 VAC or significant damage will occur. Modification of any machine wiring, improper installation, or exposure to overvoltage conditions will void your warranty"

Also note that most single phase CNC machines have either 250 or 254v max input limits, and many have narrower total input ranges that our machines do. Not our choice, a function of the chip-sets, power supplies, and drive technologies available today.


4) Several allegations have been made that our organization does not address issues we have been presented with or faced, openly or properly. In our opinion, this is simply not true, and the opposite of our intentions. Again, we believe, our public statements, and more importantly, actions, prove this out.

- Here’s a few quotes / reposts that are pertinent.

Quote: Mikini Mechatronics, LLC (Jan 2012):
1) We’re not perfect.

No manufacturer is (or supplier / company, individual, employee, …is ). However, we make a huge effort to build best in class tools that represent great value, and support them beyond expectations. If there’s an issue, we’re 100% committed to making it right.

2) Early generation machines, were, early generation machines.

Without question, Our first generation (2008 model year) machine drive and control systems proved to be less reliable than intended in customer use. Although component failure rates were low and thousands of hours of pre-release tests were performed, cumulative issue rates exceeded our internal standards in the field, especially in regards to overload and overvoltage protection.

We based the V1.0 systems on overload and over-voltage standards of commonly available drives and systems that are used in industrial machine tools today (150% overload for example and a 3HP system based on a 3HP off the shelf chipset). We reacted promptly and by early 2009 new systems were shipping in all 2009 MY machines.

Our second and third generation control and drive systems are clean sheet designs from a supplier of industrial control systems and have proven themselves in years of commercial service, worldwide.

We accomplished this by overbuilding substantially - for example our V2.0 standard spindle drive has a 400% overload, and is rated at 3HP and is based on a 5HP continuous drive system sourced in the USA). It’s nearly impossible to kill one of our second generation servo drives by overloading. Don’t take our word for it - our users document (online, directly, and in firmware results) that they apparently “try” on a fairly frequent basis – and have done so for years.

Regarding our commitment to service :

Quote : Sweeny (January 2012)

"I'm sending the spindle board to Mikini to be checked and if possible repaired. Phil has offered to upgrade to V2.0 with a discount, etc."

Reference information : Note that this is a 2008 model year machine that has been operating on it’s original control and drive system since purchase and installation by the customer over 3 years ago. It was damaged recently by a ground neutral short without facility protection, which was documented on this forum. It was also a 2008 - 220V only machine that is currently installed on 249-253 volt service.

From the Mikini 1610L 2008 operators guide, page 6 (installation and setup) :

"2.2. Electrical – Power
Your Machine requires 220 Volts AC, 1 Phase, 60 Hz, Supplied at 20 amps.
MIKINI highly recommends each machine be installed on a dedicated 20 amp
breaker, with GFCI protection"

And the same document, page 7, in bold type

"DO NOT attempt to connect your machine to any voltage other than 220
VAC, 1 phase, 60 Hz. Do not modify or alter your machine’s power circuitry
or wiring in any way. Doing so will void your warranty"

Regardless of this, we’re essentially offering warranty service at no charge and replacement of the drive towards a new unit, as well as providing the V1-V2 conversion interface kit at no charge. What more could you realistically ask of our organization, given the situation ? Do other CNC machine tool manufactures offer similar service for machines of this age and situation ?

--

We thought this was very insightful

Quote: You'll never "win" arguing with people on the internet!

Our thoughts: We have no intention of “winning”, only supporting our mission statement of striving to produce industry leading products and offer service beyond expectations. In accord with this, we fully understand that there is a lack of comprehension of information presented with our machine tools, fundamentals of machine and machining applications, and issues surrounding our organization. We’re committed to assisting our user group, and have committed to presenting additional information, and re-presenting existing information in other formats (graphically, etc), on our new website, and also on this site and others, to help in the resolution of this shortcoming. We have already started this process in fact, as previous posts in this thread bear out.

For example : On a recently posted topic of accuracy of spindle speed changes : This is an issue that is totally independent of the Mikini 1610 series machine. This relates specifically to Mach 3 and any Mach 3 machine, and it’s operation. Do your research to confirm, or contact us and we’ll point you to the reference information.

On topics of speed vs power – See our graphs presented, and reference the flat rated torque limitations in our operators manuals.

Attempting to push a (all things relative) large diameter tool, at low rpm (relative to max RPM), with highly variable torque, especially one with a highly variable torque load subject to “jamming” or “recutting” such as a drill or single flute cutter is typically not what you'd want to do with a precision CNC machine tool.

Drill press - sure, and built for the purpose.

Manual milling machine - yes, carefully, with operator understanding.

Specialized CNC Drill-tap center - possibly.

High resolution, high precision CNC machining center - Nope. An informed owner would comment something like "you want to do what to my machine ?"

Furthermore, if you were to “fix” this by substantially changing torque or energy metrics for the spindle, you would be operating outside of machine structure and component design limitations. As we've previously commented, don't underestimate what a "simple" design change could mean to several related systems and their performance and long term reliability & life.

There are attempted operations documented on these forums by users of our machines that are wildly outside of these limitations, and even the limitations of machines weighing, performing, and costing several times what a 1610 machining center does.

Additionally, many of the same applications are much better suited to another process than the one selected by the user, on nearly any CNC machining center. These issues come down to knowledge and experience limitations, not a machine specific issue. To reiterate our previous comment "Learning is tough".

You'll also note, consistently, that our 2009+ machines are very well protected against these mis-application events, as designed, configured and supplied. If you modify them or operate outside of specification for supply or other limitations (faster, more load, higher thrusts) - you're on your own, so to speak.

For further interest

We thought these links were relevant, supporting our statements of no individual or organization being “perfect” and confusion within the industry regarding topics of service, design, reliability and performance.

Spindle Faults and problems on CNC machines

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/haas_mills/120435-haas_vf-4_spindle_drive_fault.html

Spindle Drive went dark - Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web (http://www.cnczone.com/vb/haas/spindle-drive-went-dark-231827/)

Vector drive went kaput on SL10 - Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web (http://www.cnczone.com/vb/haas/vector-drive-went-kaput-sl10-232077/)

CNC spindle Loading & performance confusion

How much power does the SS REALLY have? - Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web (http://www.cnczone.com/vb/haas/how-much-power-does-ss-really-have-213891/)
Design, service, and issues in general

Machine Porn: These gal's got some hips... - Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web (http://www.cnczone.com/vb/toyoda/machine-porn-these-gals-got-some-hips-163739/)[/COLOR]

--------------

Be Safe and Productive in 2012.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC

allenj20
01-12-2012, 04:39 PM
So is your assertion that it is unreasonable to expect a 3HP spindle to be able to do a canned peck drill cycle with a W drill .386" in diameter .500 total DOC with a peck depth of .050 DOC 1000 RPM 4 IPM in soft 6061 Aluminum without stalling?

I am not trying to argue I am genuinely curious if you believe this to be out of spec.

"Attempting to push a (all things relative) large diameter tool, at low rpm (relative to max RPM), with highly variable torque, especially one with a highly variable torque load subject to “jamming” or “recutting” such as a drill or single flute cutter is typically not what you'd want to do with a precision CNC machine tool.

Drill press - sure, and built for the purpose.

Manual milling machine - yes, carefully, with operator understanding.

Specialized CNC Drill-tap center - possibly.

High resolution, high precision CNC machining center - Nope. An informed owner would comment something like "you want to do what to my machine ?""

MIKINI MECH
01-12-2012, 06:53 PM
Allen,

Great question, no argument, and ex-actually the type of which we encourage and are very happy to help with.

You document an application that results in the following metrics :

0.386 diameter
101 SFM
4 IPM
1000 RPM
0.004" chip-load (feed per rev)
~ 1/2 cubic inch per min material removal
7.5 seconds in the actual cut, roughly

At 1000 RPM note that you're operating the spindle at 1/5 total available power (0.6 HP) - (1000/5000 rpm) on a linear 5000 RPM 3 HP spindle.

Depending on the specifics of the tool and condition, tool holder, stickout, etc, assuming 6061 at about 35-50 ksi (not sure what soft means, T0, T3, T6 ?), this will result in roughly the following metrics and forces, assuming the fixture and part are not moving at all, and the bit is cutting - not "gumming up" or dull.

30-60 lb axial thrust force continuous based on the feed per rev, rate and material. (V2 machine recommendation is 100 lbf continuous / 1000 dynamic). No issues likely here.

1.0-2.1 ft lbs continuous spindle torque, 5-10 ft lbs peak (~5:1 dynamic torque range for most drilling ~ 1-2X depth of diameter). based on the chip load, diameter and material. Note this dynamic torque will go up rapidly with deeper holes, and depending on the peck settings could go down.

The V2.0 machine is capable of 3 ft/lbs continuous, 6.5 ft/lbs instant peak rated torque as configured with the standard speed spindle.

(Note that you could actually grab a 1/2 handheld electric drill and verify these by hand with this particular application, and actually feel just what the machine is "feeling").

If you have a non-standard gearing configuration you'll need to adjust these torque limits to the corrected ratio by dividing the new maximum RPM.

In short, this is on top of the a maximum expected torque load capacity for the standard spindle drive with a standard gearing. Your continuous spindle load will be fairly low to medium, but the peak loads will likely be pegging out, depending on the metrics noted above, and the specifics of the peck cycle.

If the tool is not sharp, you have deflection in the work-holding or part, towards the bottom of the hole, or you're dealing with dead soft AL stock (basically peanut butter as far as the machine is concerned), or have an issue with breaking through- again depending on the peck settings and stiffness of the setup, likely it's a no-go from the start.

However - you should be able to run a quality drill at a much higher RPM in this material which should get the available HP up substantially to have larger safety factors in spindle performance and get chip loads and forces down. If you're just running a few parts, bump up the RPM, keep the feed the same, use good tools & lots of lubricant, and get the job done. You could also bump up RPM and feed if you need slightly higher (faster) material removal.

We've had good luck with machine length cobalt drills for similar applications. Again, keep it sharp, and use lots of lubrication.

If you were doing this in production, we would likely recommend getting a ZIR coated 2 or 3 flute chip-breaker variable flute tool, say 5/16", wind it up to 5000 RPM - 410 SFM, and a helical ramp into the material circular interpolating to 0.386. After all, it is a high speed mill, not a drill press :).

variable flute end mill for aluminum (http://www.lakeshorecarbide.com/516rougherfinishervariable2fluteendmillforaluminumzrn.aspx)

variable flute end mill for aluminum (http://www.lakeshorecarbide.com/516rougherfinishersquareendvariable3fluteendmillforaluminumzrn.aspx)

Note : not a good idea to try this with (springy) HSS end mills, especially un-coated, especially 4 flute. You'll likely end up loading up the tool with material, destroying it and stalling the spindle or breaking the tool.

With the right tool, such as similar to linked above, you will end up with a hole that was exactly the diameter you wanted, more accurately located, several times faster (continuously cutting), and lower forces on the machine.

Same thing in carbon steel ? No problem. Take the RPM down to ~3000-4000, (325 SFM at 5/16) and use this :

STANDARD LENGTH, CORNER RADIUS, VARIABLE FLUTE END MILL FOR STEEL (http://www.lakeshorecarbide.com/516squarecornervariablefluteendmillforsteel.aspx)

Note : Just forget HSS with something like this in production - it will likely melt nearly instantly at this recommended rate in steel. If you got it to run okay, you'll be changing out tools every few parts anyway - a drag in production.

- Closing thoughts :

- Same application but 1/4" hole - very different recommendations (probably not worth circular interpolating - drill at higher allowable RPM's and ream if needed).

- Same application but 5/8" hole or larger - again, very different (don't even try drilling - circular interpolate, perhaps with a 3/8" EM, and don't look back).

- Never guess at loading or tooling calcs. Run the numbers, start conservatively, verify loads, and optimize the cycle from there.

We're here to help you understand use the machine's capabilities fully and optimally in any application. Feel free to be in touch.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC










So is your assertion that it is unreasonable to expect a 3HP spindle to be able to do a canned peck drill cycle with a W drill .386" in diameter .500 total DOC with a peck depth of .050 DOC 1000 RPM 4 IPM in soft 6061 Aluminum without stalling?

I am not trying to argue I am genuinely curious if you believe this to be out of spec.

"Attempting to push a (all things relative) large diameter tool, at low rpm (relative to max RPM), with highly variable torque, especially one with a highly variable torque load subject to “jamming” or “recutting” such as a drill or single flute cutter is typically not what you'd want to do with a precision CNC machine tool.

Drill press - sure, and built for the purpose.

Manual milling machine - yes, carefully, with operator understanding.

Specialized CNC Drill-tap center - possibly.

High resolution, high precision CNC machining center - Nope. An informed owner would comment something like "you want to do what to my machine ?""

slowtwitch
01-12-2012, 07:02 PM
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah , blahblah, blah, blah, blah blah blah ...................... Mikini Mechatronics, LLC

Oh, how this reminds me of the months and months of emails, when I had to deal with Mikini. Again, a lot of talk and naturally, blaming the owners of these machines for the problems with them. Shame, shame....

MIKINI MECH
01-12-2012, 07:15 PM
Please try to refrain from unprofessional, non constructive comments on this forum. If these persist, we will cease participation in public forum.

In response for all to review and comment on :

Is application assistance is not helpful ?

Is our response to a direct request for review to assist in optimizing feeds, speeds and tooling choice/selection for a particular application, somehow construed as "blame ?". We're trying to be helpful and constructive - here's the ways you could do this, the trade offs, and other options for slightly different variations of the application.

As far as we know, It's a fundamental need on any machine, be it a 30 year old knee mill or $1.2 million dollar machine installation. Are we wrong ?

Just trying to help. Again, more than happy to not assist users in anonymous public forum if it becomes an issue.

Happy to edit or remove anything that was offensive if we're way off base.

We thought the initial request was very professional, on topic, and well documented for a proper reply.

Other thoughts ?

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC


Oh, how this reminds me of the months and months of emails, when I had to deal with Mikini. Again, a lot of talk and naturally, blaming the owners of these machines for the problems with them. Shame, shame....

slowtwitch
01-12-2012, 07:48 PM
Look, I've seen many a post here, about folks with their spindles changing speeds, not enough torque, etc, etc. and I still haven't seen your solution, except for that universal "bad voltage" or "bad ground" and "improper use" answers.

My mill is running ..at the moment. But, it was my trouble shooting skills ..not yours , that made this happen. I've sent you my boards (main and spindle) two times to be repaired and both times they returned with the same problem. When i responded with the issue again, you again blamed my electrical supply, grounds, etc.

Why is it that my mill is running after I made the repairs ...on the so called bad voltage and ground system that I have ???

Again, I welcome your involvement in these forums, but, please, please give the folks some solid answers.

Spinnetti
01-12-2012, 09:56 PM
Allen,

Great question, no argument, and ex-actually the type of which we encourage and are very happy to help with......
Mikini Mechatronics, LLC

Great stuff! thanks for the lesson... Just when I thought I wasn't getting much out of this forum!

mcphill
01-12-2012, 11:14 PM
I for one would love to hear the answer to the question put forth:


So is your assertion that it is unreasonable to expect a 3HP spindle to be able to do a canned peck drill cycle with a W drill .386" in diameter .500 total DOC with a peck depth of .050 DOC 1000 RPM 4 IPM in soft 6061 Aluminum without stalling?

The answer should come in the form of "Yes" or "No"...

Brian L
01-13-2012, 11:50 AM
In true Mikini fashion, he did say no, if you can read between all the BS. At 1000 rpm you only have .6hp and almost no torque....

"In short, this is on top of the a maximum expected torque load capacity for the standard spindle drive with a standard gearing. Your continuous spindle load will be fairly low to medium, but the peak loads will likely be pegging out, depending on the metrics noted above, and the specifics of the peck cycle."

Although I don't understand the comment about continuous spindle load vs. peak load, what does that mean, drilling vs. not drilling? You are either in the cut, or you aren't.... unless he's talking about the short amount of distance before the drill reaches full diameter and also when it starts to break thru the bottom.

Basically, if you read between the lines, this machine is a gutless wonder below 3000-5000 rpm, and your tool diameters better be small on top of that, get over a 1/2" diameter endmill and you are screwed.

MIKINI MECH
01-13-2012, 02:07 PM
It's clear that some users have no interest in learning or understanding the performance or operation of our machine tools, even offered assistance at no charge.

Additionally there seem to be forces that have a primary interest in non-factually "bashing" our products in a very un-professional manner for unknown, and very possibly commercially motivated, reasons. This has also been noted by others.

For this reason, this will be our last post on this thread, as we have previously indicated would be the case.

We have no interest in arguing with anonymous sources, as other third parties have mentioned is a "no win" "game".

We are interested in presenting the facts, building class leading tools, and assisting actual users of our machines, with actual applications, as we have done in the past, and will continue to do so into the future.

Re-Attached are the standard spindle drive power and torque output charts for those who want to understand the performance of the machine tools we build. We understand spindle loading and performance are confusing subjects. If you're a user of our machines, have an application need you would like assistance with please feel free to be in touch.

As a few closing points of information :

Our standard drive machines utilize a linear drive system that has constant
torque at all speeds. Therefore - the torque is a line, not a curve - thus the term "Linear" with this drive:

Low speed, same torque, less power.
High speed, same torque, more power.

Our high speed drive systems, and many machines use a more traditional vector drive, and have a curve, which can take a huge number of shapes, but generally at this scale without other equipment:

Low speed, low torque, very low power.
Moderate speed, peak torque, peak power.
High speed, generally less torque, low power.

Also note that "Allen J's" machine is a 2008 Mikini 1610L machine which has been retrofitted by the user to a 2009 control system, and configured as a 7100 RPM spindle, not 5000 RPM, and correspondingly ~ 2/4.2 ft-lbs continuous/peak vs 3/6.5 ft-lbs.

Also note that a machining center of this precision and stiffness, with higher torque capability, grows proportionally in size, weight and cost, if useful lifetime is held the same.

You'll also note this also is why, generally speaking, machining centers design spindle RPM increases with increased HP, rather than keeping the RPM the same and increasing torque (Say using a transmission or special drive gearing, with larger bearings, as a drill-tap machine would).

This user's non-standard machine configuration also has correspondingly less torque available at all RPMs. You will note this user reference the higher RPM available in his posts confirming this. Same motor HP - geared for more RPM - thus less torque.

If you need assistance understanding continuous vs dynamic machining loads, please feel free to be in touch. We instrument our machines with 2 load meters to allow understanding of both, which is a class leading feature.

Simply put dynamic loads are the "jamming" or "catching" loads you would feel if you were hand drilling a hole with a drill. Drills have a much higher tendency to "catch" than end mills. This tendency also substantially varies with lubrication, material, tooling specifics, security of a fixture or part, etc - by a huge degree. Anyone who's ever hand drilled a hole can attest to these loads.

If you're drilling on any machining center - keep the tools sharp, use lots of lubrication, peck to clear the hole, keep the fixture very stiff, and be careful. If you don't stall the spindle, you could break the drill depending on the metrics - as a machining center will not compensate for load as a user on a drill press would (it just keeps pushing .....)

This "catching" is also what is going to eventually destroy any machine's bearings, spindle and axial, and in the mean time generate poor surface finishes and tooling life. True on a 200 lb, 2000, or 20,000 lb machine.

By modifying to increase any machine's capacity to store energy in the spindle system, say by using a heavier motor, tool, or flywheel, or have greater than design peak torque say using a gearbox or higher power similar RPM drive, you will generally rapidly destroy the sub-systems much faster than intended. This means a heavier motor armature, and/or larger diameter, and/or spinning faster all equal more energy and less bearing & machine life - even at the same HP. This is commonly referred to as "hot-rodding".

Mikini specifically recommends against the modification of it's machine tools.

We understand that these applications can be complex, frustrating, and unclear. We also understand the desire for a "simple" answer to a deceptively complex multi-variable problem. It would be great if a CNC machine tool was a "presto, here's your part" device, no other knowledge needed. This is not the case, as other users have mentioned.

:

Consider this question :

If I drive my car around a corner at 60 miles an hour, will I crash ?

Any knowledgeable response would require :

What car ?

What corner ?

What tires ?

How's it been maintained ?

Any modifications to the car ?

Ice on the road ?

What's the road like ?

Fast or slow steering correction ?

If the car starts to slide, will the driver compensate ?

Braking, accelerating, nothing, when ? How ?

What's in the car ?

On a hill or flat ?

Is it dark ?

Follow-on questions might be :

Can you teach me to drive around the corner at 60 MPH in a forum post ? How about an email ? How do I use the clutch ? what gear ?

Change any one of the variables, and you might have a very different answer.

Not a perfect analogy, but trying to keep it interesting and informative reading, and tie back to user's comments regarding vehicles. Take it as such, and only as such.

In parting - learning is tough. No single document or forum post is going to allow a user to fully understand a particular topic of this complexity or become a proficient operator of any machine tool in multiple applications, let alone effectively modify a complex, multi-variable, electro-mechanical, precision system (wow, that's a mouthful).

The same would be true of driving and modifying a modern vehicle which in many ways could be considered less complex.

Misunderstanding will be frustrating, and very possibly expensive.

We're here to help. We offer owners and operators hours of direct one on one application support at no charge. Feel free to be in touch.

Orders@mikinimech.com
831.254.2012
Watsonville, California, USA
WWW.MIKINIMECH.COM (http://www.mikinimech.com)

Again, Happy new year to all.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC


In true Mikini fashion, he did say no, if you can read between all the BS. At 1000 rpm you only have .6hp and almost no torque....

"In short, this is on top of the a maximum expected torque load capacity for the standard spindle drive with a standard gearing. Your continuous spindle load will be fairly low to medium, but the peak loads will likely be pegging out, depending on the metrics noted above, and the specifics of the peck cycle."

Although I don't understand the comment about continuous spindle load vs. peak load, what does that mean, drilling vs. not drilling? You are either in the cut, or you aren't.... unless he's talking about the short amount of distance before the drill reaches full diameter and also when it starts to break thru the bottom.

Basically, if you read between the lines, this machine is a gutless wonder below 3000-5000 rpm, and your tool diameters better be small on top of that, get over a 1/2" diameter endmill and you are screwed.

[/B]

slowtwitch
01-13-2012, 03:23 PM
Mikini, again you skirt the real issues. You have yet to give any answers for the drops in spindle rpm, lack of torque and other issues, that have troubled many on these forums.

Instead, you insist to recite some engineering babble that you may have learned in school. Everything you have written really hasn't answered any body's problems.

From your responses, I see a very delusional person. who cannot accept the fact that there are nagging issues with his machine.

I have been asked numerous times if I would recommend a Mikini. I just can't do it. My dealings with you have been painful. From your refusal to accept that there is a problem with your boards, your constant blaming of owners and to your lack of professionalism in repairs done on parts sent to you for service ( I do have documented proof of your shoddy work).

Good luck Mikini, I wish you the best. If you succeed or fail, I really don't care anymore.

All my future posts from now on will be on my improvements and alterations to this machine. I'm done arguing.

allenj20
01-13-2012, 04:31 PM
I just want to say one thing about the retrofit comment. I had to do the retrofit myself because the machine had not really worked for the first 2 years of ownership. And it is not as if Phil offered to send someone out to do the work. I was given the option of doing it myself or not having a working machine.

Which brings up the point, you keep saying you can't share specs because someone might hurt themselves and you might be liable. And yet you were totally cool with having me do a complete electronics retrofit with nothing more than the flimsy Mikini docs. That does not really make any sense logically.

Secondly the reason my Spindle is different is that you shipped me the wrong pulley on my motor. After supposedly installing all of my new electronics in your engineering frame and burn in testing them for something like 100 hours if I recall. You never noticed in this test that the front panel fades in and out that there are cold solder connections on the boards that cause random spindle halts and E-stops conditions? You never noticed that the RPM did not match the RPM at the spindle based on the wrong sized pulley? Or that the RPMs dip constantly?

To be fair you did offer to replace the pulley with the correct one at no charge. But I was so fed up with waiting on Mikni solutions that I was leery of even agreeing to that. I finally had a spindle that turned so I decided not to tempt fate anymore.

The usual process was take my motor and spindle control board out of the system drive 20 minutes to the UPS store ship everything off wait 2 to 3 weeks get everything back. Spend some hours putting everything back in the machine and it still not working right in one fashion or another. I can tell you you can do that for about 2 years before you say no thanks to any more Mikini offers of help.


It's clear that some users have no interest in learning or understanding the performance or operation of our machine tools, even offered assistance at no charge.

Additionally there seem to be forces that have a primary interest in non-factually "bashing" our products in a very un-professional manner for unknown, and very possibly commercially motivated, reasons. This has also been noted by others.

For this reason, this will be our last post on this thread, as we have previously indicated would be the case.

We have no interest in arguing with anonymous sources, as other third parties have mentioned is a "no win" "game".

We are interested in presenting the facts, building class leading tools, and assisting actual users of our machines, with actual applications, as we have done in the past, and will continue to do so into the future.

Re-Attached are the standard spindle drive power and torque output charts for those who want to understand the performance of the machine tools we build. We understand spindle loading and performance are confusing subjects. If you're a user of our machines, have an application need you would like assistance with please feel free to be in touch.

As a few closing points of information :

Our standard drive machines utilize a linear drive system that has constant
torque at all speeds. Therefore - the torque is a line, not a curve - thus the term "Linear" with this drive:

Low speed, same torque, less power.
High speed, same torque, more power.

Our high speed drive systems, and many machines use a more traditional vector drive, and have a curve, which can take a huge number of shapes, but generally at this scale without other equipment:

Low speed, low torque, very low power.
Moderate speed, peak torque, peak power.
High speed, generally less torque, low power.

Also note that "Allen J's" machine is a 2008 Mikini 1610L machine which has been retrofitted by the user to a 2009 control system, and configured as a 7100 RPM spindle, not 5000 RPM, and correspondingly ~ 2/4.2 ft-lbs continuous/peak vs 3/6.5 ft-lbs.

Also note that a machining center of this precision and stiffness, with higher torque capability, grows proportionally in size, weight and cost, if useful lifetime is held the same.

You'll also note this also is why, generally speaking, machining centers design spindle RPM increases with increased HP, rather than keeping the RPM the same and increasing torque (Say using a transmission or special drive gearing, with larger bearings, as a drill-tap machine would).

This user's non-standard machine configuration also has correspondingly less torque available at all RPMs. You will note this user reference the higher RPM available in his posts confirming this. Same motor HP - geared for more RPM - thus less torque.

If you need assistance understanding continuous vs dynamic machining loads, please feel free to be in touch. We instrument our machines with 2 load meters to allow understanding of both, which is a class leading feature.

Simply put dynamic loads are the "jamming" or "catching" loads you would feel if you were hand drilling a hole with a drill. Drills have a much higher tendency to "catch" than end mills. This tendency also substantially varies with lubrication, material, tooling specifics, security of a fixture or part, etc - by a huge degree. Anyone who's ever hand drilled a hole can attest to these loads.

If you're drilling on any machining center - keep the tools sharp, use lots of lubrication, peck to clear the hole, keep the fixture very stiff, and be careful. If you don't stall the spindle, you could break the drill depending on the metrics - as a machining center will not compensate for load as a user on a drill press would (it just keeps pushing .....)

This "catching" is also what is going to eventually destroy any machine's bearings, spindle and axial, and in the mean time generate poor surface finishes and tooling life. True on a 200 lb, 2000, or 20,000 lb machine.

By modifying to increase any machine's capacity to store energy in the spindle system, say by using a heavier motor, tool, or flywheel, or have greater than design peak torque say using a gearbox or higher power similar RPM drive, you will generally rapidly destroy the sub-systems much faster than intended. This means a heavier motor armature, and/or larger diameter, and/or spinning faster all equal more energy and less bearing & machine life - even at the same HP. This is commonly referred to as "hot-rodding".

Mikini specifically recommends against the modification of it's machine tools.

We understand that these applications can be complex, frustrating, and unclear. We also understand the desire for a "simple" answer to a deceptively complex multi-variable problem. It would be great if a CNC machine tool was a "presto, here's your part" device, no other knowledge needed. This is not the case, as other users have mentioned.

:

Consider this question :

If I drive my car around a corner at 60 miles an hour, will I crash ?

Any knowledgeable response would require :

What car ?

What corner ?

What tires ?

How's it been maintained ?

Any modifications to the car ?

Ice on the road ?

What's the road like ?

Fast or slow steering correction ?

If the car starts to slide, will the driver compensate ?

Braking, accelerating, nothing, when ? How ?

What's in the car ?

On a hill or flat ?

Is it dark ?

Follow-on questions might be :

Can you teach me to drive around the corner at 60 MPH in a forum post ? How about an email ? How do I use the clutch ? what gear ?

Change any one of the variables, and you might have a very different answer.

Not a perfect analogy, but trying to keep it interesting and informative reading, and tie back to user's comments regarding vehicles. Take it as such, and only as such.

In parting - learning is tough. No single document or forum post is going to allow a user to fully understand a particular topic of this complexity or become a proficient operator of any machine tool in multiple applications, let alone effectively modify a complex, multi-variable, electro-mechanical, precision system (wow, that's a mouthful).

The same would be true of driving and modifying a modern vehicle which in many ways could be considered less complex.

Misunderstanding will be frustrating, and very possibly expensive.

We're here to help. We offer owners and operators hours of direct one on one application support at no charge. Feel free to be in touch.

Orders@mikinimech.com
831.254.2012
Watsonville, California, USA
WWW.MIKINIMECH.COM (http://www.mikinimech.com)

Again, Happy new year to all.

Mikini Mechatronics, LLC



[/B]

Dubbie99
01-13-2012, 04:36 PM
the replies to this thread are an embarrassment. From an outsiders perspective, Mikini has replied with intelligent and well thought out information.

To suggest that they are being evasive when replying to a question "Can I drill hole X" is a joke. They replied with a bunch of information including how you COULD successfully drill the hole and additionally advised on better ways to achieve the same task.

If you were expecting a "Yes or No answer" I suspect that you have spent too much time watching TV and not enough in the real world where nothing much worth anything is a yes of no answer.

Engineering is hard. Go watch American Idol and leave the machines to the big kids.

allenj20
01-13-2012, 04:45 PM
I would suggest you buy a Mikini and then you would understand the vitriol.

You would understand all too well



the replies to this thread are an embarrassment. From an outsiders perspective, Mikini has replied with intelligent and well thought out information.

To suggest that they are being evasive when replying to a question "Can I drill hole X" is a joke. They replied with a bunch of information including how you COULD successfully drill the hole and additionally advised on better ways to achieve the same task.

If you were expecting a "Yes or No answer" I suspect that you have spent too much time watching TV and not enough in the real world where nothing much worth anything is a yes of no answer.

Engineering is hard. Go watch American Idol and leave the machines to the big kids.

SWATH
01-13-2012, 07:34 PM
So....My options are to sell the machine or retrofit the spindle with something that works. How's your retrofit coming Allen?

On another note I'm sorry Mikini has decided to leave the forum, I kind of figured that might happen with so many angry owners. I was hoping for more dialogue but I understand the positions of both sides but happen to agree with one.

I just need a functional spindle, that's all, nothing more, and I don't care what it takes to get it at this point, I don't mean to offend to anyone.

Brian L
01-13-2012, 07:47 PM
They aren't leaving the forum, they are just not going to post on this thread again.... if what he wrote isn't double speak again. If I caused this with my reply back to McPhill, I apologize, but I hate to see you guys that spent your hard earned money on these machines, then to have them not work for YEARS, and then be accused of having this be in any way, shape, or form your fault is just ludicrous.

I was at one point very interested in purchasing one of these machines, emailed and even called and talked to Phil at considerable length.... and that was where the evasiveness and double talk reared it's head and made me decide to hold off, watch this forum and see what happened over the course of six months or a year... and it has been painful to watch what this company has done to it's customers.... and now they want to come to this forum asking for what folks would like in a new product? WTF? How about satisfying the guys that already put up their hard earned money to buy the existing product that doesn't work?

mcphill
01-13-2012, 08:08 PM
Well then buy my machine at 80% what I paid for it - please. That's a HECK of a deal off the new price, and you can enjoy "learning" from Phil as much as you wish! If it's available I will even extend the warranty for you (you WILL need it...).

Brian L
01-13-2012, 08:25 PM
No thanks, if I was interested in a small mill, I'd look at this:

Scratch Built mini version of Fadal's VMC 15 - YouTube

Check it out at about the 6 minute mark, 1/2" rougher thru 1" thick aluminum plate in one pass.... now that's the way a 3hp spindle should cut....

mcphill
01-13-2012, 08:54 PM
Trust me, I know all about it. But it's "just" a 2 hp spindle - so the Mikini is better!

Spinnetti
01-15-2012, 07:46 PM
No thanks, if I was interested in a small mill, I'd look at this:

Scratch Built mini version of Fadal's VMC 15 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISzkthutKnA)

Check it out at about the 6 minute mark, 1/2" rougher thru 1" thick aluminum plate in one pass.... now that's the way a 3hp spindle should cut....


Ok, Try to get Dave to sell you one... He's playing at making machines, but doesn't seem interested in getting back in the biz.... Heck, I've emailed him a couple times as I'd like to buy one of his creations myself.. Once in a while he builds a few of something and puts them on ebay.... His last one was based on the same 2hp Grizzly I have and it was pretty neat, though this one is better. If you have luck reaching him, let the rest of us know!

Brian L
01-15-2012, 08:01 PM
Well, I know the guy personally who bought the Grizzly conversion, but I haven't tried to contact Dave in regards to this because I'm not in the market for one (already found a different machine). As for emailing him, you and ten thousand other guys.....

Regardless of Dave's intentions, he is in his 70's after all, so if he wants to play, then that's his business... but, my point in posting the video was to show what a 3hp spindle drive should really be able to do.... sink a 1/2" endmill an inch deep and plug along without screaming, shuddering or stalling the spindle.... and it has the ability to go slow or 6500 rpm.

SWATH
01-15-2012, 08:33 PM
I would love that spindle.

Brian L
01-15-2012, 09:01 PM
And you can have it, I see no reason to think that Allen's conversion to the 2hp motor and such won't yield very similar results.

mcphill
01-15-2012, 09:33 PM
I have contacted him, I got a quote, and I could have been on the list of buyers for the next set of 12 machines he is building. Alas I don't have the free funds to buy one...

Sweeney
01-15-2012, 10:19 PM
I have contacted him, I got a quote, and I could have been on the list of buyers for the next set of 12 machines he is building. Alas I don't have the free funds to buy one...

If you don't mind... what was the quote?

SWATH
01-16-2012, 12:01 PM
So is that spindle a AC VFD with an induction motor? How to they do the spindle indexing/positioning for the ATC?

Brian L
01-16-2012, 01:05 PM
Yes, it's a VFD, Sensorless Vector I'm pretty sure and I don't know what he's using for orientation, but you can use an optical trigger, resolver, magnetic trigger, or even a mechanical detent. I used to own a 40x20x20 Fadal back in the early 90's and pretty sure it had a air operated roller that dropped into a divot in the spindle as it slowly jogged around... so there are numerous ways to accomplish the task.

mcphill
01-16-2012, 02:15 PM
I received this of 05NOV2011:


Hi Mike

We are starting to buils 12 machines to test the waters. Price of the machine is $18,500.00. First ones should be ready in about 2 months. Sounds like a lot but this machine has all the parts of a full size VMC mill.
Delivery depend on your location.

Specification:

Travels: X 14.0, Y 8.0, Z 9.0
Axis Drives: Brushless dc servo's, closed loop
Rapid Speeds: X Y 500 IPM, Z 400 IPM
Spindle RPM: 100 to 6500
Spindle HP: 3 hp
Power required : 3hp 220 VAC Single Phase 5 amp. With 1 1/2 hp, 120 VAC 10 amp
Weight: 1100 lbs
Spindle Taper: R8
Foot Print: 45 inches wide, 40 inches deep
ATC: 8 Tools, air blast thru spindle, spindle orientation, 7 second tool change.

Machine comes with 8 Tools. Addtional tools $65.00 each.

Tools in stock:
3/16
1/4
3/8
1/2
5/8
3/4
DB-200 coolet chuck
Jacobs taper
Floating tap holder, DB -200 up to 3/8

Hope this answers you questions

David deCaussin
(818)429-6942

mcphill
01-16-2012, 02:16 PM
This came up with my discussions with FlashCut. He has a sensor that detects orientation. He is able to do a VERY slow rotation on the motor and move until the sensor confirms a "home" position is met, and then do the tool change. This is a macro that I believe FlashCut said they spent some time assisting in perfecting with Dave.

Sweeney
01-16-2012, 02:33 PM
Thanks for the info, McPhil.

Spinnetti
01-22-2012, 07:21 PM
Thanks McPhill... looks like out of my price range! nice dream though.

Looking at your website, I can see a kindrid spirit... I have two Audi's (one very hotrodded) and have made much of the same stuff!

Considering the outrageous cost for it, you should compete with ECS tuning for Porsche BBK caliper adapter... simple enough part.....

Totally off topic, but is there a VAGcom setting to get more than 3 flashes out of my turn signals? I have 3, but would like 5.....

mcphill
01-22-2012, 08:25 PM
No VAGCOM setting that I am aware of...

donwhit123
01-07-2013, 10:06 PM
I like my Mikini mill, but the spindle still makes me nervous. I did jam the spindle which fried something in the servo. I was cutting aluminum jig plate which is rather nasty stuff being gummy. The end mill grabbed and the work piece was not clamped tight enough. Mikini replaced a board in the servo at my expense. I didn't complain as it was my fault. I believe the new board is a newer better version. When I got the servo back, it did not run. Phil was quick to respond and after a few tests and email exchanges they shipped me a new cable at their expense and the problem was solved.
I would suggest that anyone receiving a new machine check the slack of the spindle belt, and check tightness of the ball nut cartridges and ball screw couplers. I did have some issues there.
I am using CNCLinux which is the newer version of EMC2. It took a little figuring out as far as setting it up but I am very happy with it. I have HAL and INI files for CNCLinux that I could pass on. I have had no problems with the stepper motors, they control very well. The machine is in pretty good tram.
I have high voltage where I live, up to 255 VAC. I bought a buck/boost transformer and limit the starting current with an arrangement I rigged up using a contactor, a relay and a power resister controlled with a $78 PLC from Automation Direct. The PLC was cheaper than an accurate time delay relay.
I found that I had to deepen the keyways on my collets, as the engaging pin protrudes enough to interfere. Although I bought a drill chuck with integral R8 that fit just fine. I don't know what the standards are for keyway depth on R8 collets. Some of mine are made in Taiwan and some are Chinese.
Overall, this is a good machine for the price. It has ground ball screws and enough travel for my needs anyway. A machine with more travel is probably more than double the price.
This mill is not meant for hogging and neither are any of the other lower priced CNC mills. On the other hand if hogging is what you want to do, you probably could just buy a used plain milling machine. I bought mine to do 2D and 3D contouring in aluminum and wood. The standard spindle is a good compromise for that. If I was just cutting wood, I would have opted for the high speed spindle.

diverpop
01-17-2013, 04:22 PM
I am thinking about buying a 1610 LP and would like to check one out first. If someone has one I would like to come see the machine in action. I am in the Dallas TX. area so the closer you are to me the better. I can't find any info on the LP and that is the only one that interest me. Thank you

randyc7
02-25-2013, 06:53 PM
I have read alot about this company, are they still around?

diverpop
02-27-2013, 10:20 AM
I called the company and asked if they could send me to someone they sold one of the new machines to. I was told they would look into their records and call me back. They never called so I decided to go with Tormach instead I will have about an inch less travel in X and Y and 3 inches less in Z but Tormach is a reputable company where as mikini is not.

SWATH
03-01-2013, 01:06 PM
I called the company and asked if they could send me to someone they sold one of the new machines to. I was told they would look into their records and call me back. They never called so I decided to go with Tormach instead I will have about an inch less travel in X and Y and 3 inches less in Z but Tormach is a reputable company where as mikini is not.

A very wise decision. One many of use wish we had made. I've had a Mikini for a few years now and the only thing I have to show for it is an empty wallet, a handful of broken endmills, and a lifetimes worth of frustration. Go grab that Tormach and make her yours.