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allenj20
12-22-2011, 04:14 PM
I decided to go ahead and start a thread for this. I finally decided to just get rid of the BLDC and Mikini electronics as I have had a ridiculous amount of trouble with the Mikini electronics over the last three years.

And now that the spindle is actually working I find it is entirely gutless in the low end of the RPM range. So I finally decided there was no other real choice than to gut the Mikini electronics and replace them with parts I know will actually work.

So I have decided to go with an AC motor and VFD setup. And to replace the Mikini breakout board with a more standard CNC4PC bob. So here is what I have so far.

2HP Hitachi sensor-less vector VFD
http://www.driveswarehouse.com/Drives/AC+Drives/Sensorless+Vector+VFD/WJ200-015SF.html

2HP Inverter duty motor
Y368 Products (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motors/AC_Motors_-_General_Purpose_and_Inverter_Duty_(0.25_-_300HP)/AC_Motors_-_Inverter_Duty,_Marathon_(0.25_-_100HP)/Marathon_MicroMAX_(0.25HP_to_10HP)/Y368)

CNC4PC C23 BOB
CNC4PC (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=182)

One problem I will run in to is that the new motor weighs 45lbs. The BLDC motor on the machine weighs 22 pounds as I just weighed it. I have one of the original 1610Ls and it does not have a gas strut on the Z axis. So I am going to have to add a gas strut to the Z axis. Anyone have one on their machine and want to post some pictures of how it is mounted so I can get some ideas on how to mount one? Measurements and or specs for the strut would be useful too.

Anyone have any input on pounds of force for the strut?

Brian L
12-22-2011, 09:17 PM
I have purchased the gas struts for other things, a good source is Guden Hinges and Industrial Hardware: Guden Home Page (http://www.guden.com), they have them from small poundage all the way up to 250 pounds of force. They also have mounting hardware.

mcphill
12-23-2011, 05:34 PM
Why "step down" to a 2 hp motor?

Are you planning to retain the "manual mode" use of the machine, or just bypass all the Mikini hardware and control straight from the PC?

FWIW, here is a solution I was looking at.

Motor: http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motors/AC_Motors_-_General_Purpose_and_Inverter_Duty_(0.25_-_300HP)/AC_Motors_-_Inverter_Duty,_Marathon_(0.25_-_100HP)/Marathon_Black_Max_(0.25HP_to_30HP)/Y541

Driver: http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-HP-Sensorless-Vector-AC-Motor-Torque-Control-Drive-/350462584997?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519932a8a5#ht_6204wt_910

These would net you a 3 hp power, and a top speed of 5400 rpm. Huge benefits over the system you spec'd, I think... It would cost about twice as much, though...

I am looking at going a different direction now, though. I have found a Vector Drive that will work with the existing BLDC motor on the Mikini. I do plan to order it and see how it goes. Hoping it will be a "transparent" change, but give significantly better control/power out of the motor... I have found the drive I want online, but have had a hard time finding a way to order one so far. Plan to look in to it over the Christmas break...

allenj20
12-23-2011, 06:02 PM
It's not stepping down at all. This spindle does not put out 3 HP at any range that is usable for steel or drilling with larger diameter drills. I suspect it does not put out 3 HP at all. That sticker is just a sticker put on in China as far as I am concerned. I have a real mill with a real 3HP AC motor and VFD and there is no comparison this spindle is a gutless wonder and the real 3HP spindle on my other mill never quits no matter what I have thrown at it. I mean this BLDC stalls out on a .50 DOC with a W drill in 6061 at 1000 RPM. That's a cut the X2 mini mill will make without complaint.

Look at the Tormach's 1.5HP and VFD and read their paper on VFD versus BLDC they are closer to the truth. I honestly don't think this is a 3HP BLDC period regardless of the drive used it's a very suspect Chinese 3 HP.

My goal is to get rid of the Mikini electronics all together as they are crap. Why would I try to keep them they are not at all reliable or good.

So the reason I did not go to 3HP is weight and AMPS it would be about 20 amps just for the motor and the motor would weigh close to 70 lbs. Also a real 2 HP will be just fine you will see. The driver you point to is a three phase input FYI. Mine keeps the single phase and the same total 20 AMP input requirement and keeps the weight to a more reasonable 45lbs even at that I am doubling the weight of the motor.

mcphill
12-23-2011, 06:53 PM
Wasn't trying to piss in your Cornflakes there!

The drive I linked can be spec'd for single phase as well. I called and spec'd out all the parts from them and discussed the application as well.

I am sure your solution will work, was just curious about some of your specifics and the rationale at why you decided on those specific parts. Please keep us all updated!

allenj20
12-23-2011, 07:28 PM
You didn't piss in my cornflakes. What irritates me is the lack of guts of this spindle, not you, so don't misunderstand. Sorry if I came off that way.

I thought a lot about a 3HP spindle but I don't think it really makes sense power wise, weight wise, or even requirements wise for this size of machine. As I said I don't think we are getting anything like 3HP now.

So on the drive you specced if you derate it for single phase you wouldn't get 3HP out of it. Hitachi makes a single phase 3HP VFD see here http://www.driveswarehouse.com/Drives/AC+Drives/Sensorless+Vector+VFD/WJ200-022SF.html but it requires 22 amps all by itself. I don't see on that posting what the amps required for that drive are.

Cheers, Allen


Wasn't trying to piss in your Cornflakes there!

The drive I linked can be spec'd for single phase as well. I called and spec'd out all the parts from them and discussed the application as well.

I am sure your solution will work, was just curious about some of your specifics and the rationale at why you decided on those specific parts. Please keep us all updated!

mcphill
12-23-2011, 07:57 PM
You are probably right that 2 hp is more than what we have now, and more than enough for the machine... The Lenze drive is sized for the application specified. I think they actually use the 5 hp version and derate to use it for 3 hp when you supply single phase power. Again, I had a pretty lengthy call with the place where I was going to buy from.

Here's a link to the "right" part: AC Tech SMVector Drive - ESV222N02YXB - 3.00 HP - 9.6 Amp - NEMA 1 Enclosed | | Precision Electric, Inc. (http://www.precision-elec.com/online-store/200-240-vac-single-phase-input/ac-tech-smvector-drive-esv222n02yxb-3-00-hp-9-6-amp-nema-1-enclosed/)

They state 9.6 Amps output - don't see a supply rating...

allenj20
12-23-2011, 08:19 PM
5HP derated to 3 might work depending on the input requirements.

I think that is what is on my big mill a 5HP Yaskawa VFD derated to 3HP for single phase and that can run on my 20 amp circuit. But it does not have any servos or steppers well it has one servo on the X axis.

But when I look at it and if you were standing next to me here looking at it you would say oh that motor is not going to fit on top of the Mikini. Take a look not sure if you can get the scale from this picture. But this is a 3HP AC motor.

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/photo.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1324689520936

SWATH
12-24-2011, 02:42 PM
Needless to say, I'm following this thread with extreme interest. Mike, are you going to try and use the same motor and just replace the drive?

Al_The_Man
12-24-2011, 03:13 PM
I have found a Vector Drive that will work with the existing BLDC motor on the Mikini. . I have found the drive I want online, but have had a hard time finding a way to order one so far. ...

Do you have a link to the drive, I am curious to see a VFD drive that works with a BLDC motor?
Al.

mcphill
12-24-2011, 03:30 PM
Needless to say, I'm following this thread with extreme interest. Mike, are you going to try and use the same motor and just replace the drive?

My ideal solution will be just a drive swap, with no changes to any other parts or functionality impacted... I don't know if I can achieve this or not, and I am at this point only "hoping" that a new drive will result in a more usable machine. If it doesn't work out I will go for an AC motor and drive swap, and likely nuke all the manual Mikini functions... The biggest downside for me with that is that it will take longer - and time is one resource I have NO WHERE near enough of!!!

mcphill
12-24-2011, 03:35 PM
It took me FOREVER to find it again yesterday, Parker's site is atrocious!

Parker Hannifin, Compumotor Division, North America - A Complete Family of Motion Control Products (http://www.compumotor.com/new_ulm/driveblok.htm)

http://www.compumotor.com/new_ulm/pdf/5004-0501%20layout%20asrd.pdf

I have yet to actually discuss the application and get the pricing for this option, so I am not 100% sure it will work yet...

allenj20
12-24-2011, 03:40 PM
Anyone with a V2 machine want to take a couple of photos of the gas struts mounting setup so I can get an idea for that part of the project?

Al_The_Man
12-24-2011, 03:57 PM
I am just curious how they fit all that into such a small package, where just about all other drive manufacturers need the room to put the large power supply usually associated with VFD and BLDC DC power supply?
Sensorless BLDC has been around for a while but that IS small for a VFD of that capacity?
It resembles more the appearance of a 3ph slow start.
Be nice to see some working applications?
Al.

mcphill
12-24-2011, 04:12 PM
I am not home right now or I would give you exactly what you want, but maybe these will do?

http://images17.fotki.com/v1621/photos/1/435091/9119324/20Spi8ndle-vi.jpg

http://images9.fotki.com/v248/photos/1/435091/9119324/21ClearedTable-vi.jpg

Feel free to poke around to see if there is something else useful:

Mikini 1610L | mcphill | Fotki.com, photo and video sharing made easy. (http://public.fotki.com/mcphill/mcpi-inc/mikini-1610l/)

allenj20
12-24-2011, 07:38 PM
Thanks Mike that is helpful.

If anyone has the length and force of those shocks that would be helpful too.

SWATH
12-25-2011, 12:05 AM
The main black tube is 13in. and ~27mm in diameter, the bright metal piston extends 12in. and is ~16mm in diameter. I don't know how far the slender black piston extends but it makes up the difference when the Z is all the way up. The total extended length from center of ball joint to center of ball joint when Z is at maximum height is 31.25in. Don't know what the weight is, Phil would probably tell you if you asked him. Then you can simply take the weight difference between the 22lb BLDC and the new AC motor and add that to the weight rating of you struts. McMaster-Carr also has a nice selection of gas springs: McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/#gas-springs/=fieokw)

http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m567/dressmanjl/photobucket-1345-1324789062599.jpg

http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m567/dressmanjl/photobucket-2602-1324789024777.jpg

allenj20
12-25-2011, 08:01 PM
Thanks swath that's what I needed.

allenj20
12-27-2011, 11:13 PM
Well the motor is here.

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0045.jpg

mcphill
12-27-2011, 11:17 PM
Unless I am mistaken (due to the perspective), Dat's a BIG motor!!!

allenj20
12-27-2011, 11:24 PM
You are not mistaken. And it's from the MicroMax series. You can begin to see why I did not go with a 3HP motor it's bigger still of course. As it is this will only just fit I think.

I also ordered the gas struts yesterday from McMasterCarr I ordered 2 50lb struts for 100lbs total they have a 16 inch stroke and a max length of 35 inches.

The VFD should be here this week as well.


Unless I am mistaken (due to the perspective), Dat's a BIG motor!!!

howecnc
12-27-2011, 11:26 PM
What does that way?

allenj20
12-27-2011, 11:34 PM
45 lbs


What does that way?

SWATH
12-27-2011, 11:49 PM
This thread is getting exciting! Thanks Allen, it gives me hope for a productive machine.

allenj20
12-28-2011, 12:25 AM
This weekend I made another improvement to my mill. The flexible hose system that came with the mill has been falling apart for some time now.

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0016.jpg

I would remove the cracked ones and the hose was getting smaller and smaller.

Keeping with my idea of not buying anymore replacement parts from Mikini I decided to replace the flexible hose system with Loc-line the originator of these modular hose systems. I got the parts from Enco along with some extra hose sections for future use.

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0017.jpg

Only problem was the Chinese version modular hose system fixtures were slightly smaller in diameter so it was not as simple as just popping them on.

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0019.jpg

Luckily the threads in the block were slightly smaller too so it was just a matter of drilling it out and re-threading for 1/2-20 threads.

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0022.jpg

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0023.jpg

I also picked up these nifty pliers to make snapping the pieces together easier. The kits were like 8 bucks each and the pliers were like 9

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0024.jpg

And viola all fixed

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0035.jpg

One thing the kits come with 3 different size nozzles the smaller nozzles really put some water pressure out probably be good for chip clearance. But there is a much higher chance of water going places you don't want it to go. I settled for the largest nozzle. Overall I am really happy with the result and one less thing I have to worry about.

allenj20
12-29-2011, 01:11 AM
VFD is here

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0046.jpg

SWATH
12-29-2011, 01:35 AM
Allen,

What does the power curve look like for this motor, are you going to be able to get a lot of low end power? Are you going to pulley it for higher RPM?

SWATH
12-29-2011, 01:58 AM
Mike.

Here is a new 3hp. It weighs 64lbs, I think it may be better than the one you linked:
Y1999 Products (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motors/AC_Motors_-_General_Purpose_and_Inverter_Duty_%280.25_-_300HP%29/AC_Motors_-_Inverter_Duty,_Marathon_%280.25_-_100HP%29/Marathon_MicroMAX_%280.25HP_to_10HP%29/Y1999)

I guess I'm still not sure it the performance issues with the diminishing low end hp is because of the motor or the controller. If it is simply the BLDC technology that is the shortfall then obviously a new technology must be installed. If the existing motor can be controlled better by better electronics I think that is a better way to go, after all the motor is just copper windings and magnets right?

allenj20
12-29-2011, 03:06 PM
The Curve will be very similar to the Tormach motor curve. Constant torque variable HP with a much wider power band especially at the lower end.

http://www.tormach.com/uploads/images/content_images/cnc_buyers_guide/horsepower_vs_speed.gif

The pulley setup I have now is 1:1.5 and I am thinking at least right now I am going to use that. Should give 500 to 5000RPM with a good power band.

Interestingly I just noticed this in the docs for the VFD.

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/Capture.PNG

Looks like it is or was planned to have this VFD be able to drive DC motors. I wonder if that means brushless DC and I wonder if that was implemented or not.


Allen,

What does the power curve look like for this motor, are you going to be able to get a lot of low end power? Are you going to pulley it for higher RPM?

SWATH
12-29-2011, 03:12 PM
Hmm, I wonder if you could try to power the existing BLDC motor with your new VFD controller and see if there is a performance difference. Thant would be interesting.

Al_The_Man
12-29-2011, 04:23 PM
I would be interested to know how those HP curves were obtained?
And what type of control for the BLDC?
Here is part of a application paper that shows a comparison.
The BLDC typically will have max torque down to zero rpm.


Hmm, I wonder if you could try to power the existing BLDC motor with your new VFD controller and see if there is a performance difference. Thant would be interesting.
Do not use a VFD to power a BLDC.
It is designed for different technology.
Al.

allenj20
12-29-2011, 05:37 PM
Both sensorless vector drives and BLDC are constant torque variable horsepower. The difference is the VFD has more horsepower at lower RPMs than the BLDC. The BLDC is basically linear horsepower as in the graph.

If our Mikini BLDC setups are truly constant torque it must be like 0.2 ft-lbs or something (just kidding... sort of).

Bottom line I have a BLDC setup I will sell at a reasonable price ;)

Also generally yes VFD are for AC motors. But we were talking about the manufacturers claim that this inverter can drive DC motors.

That's not all that crazy when a VFD puts out a semi-sinusoidal variable freq wave it is doing so with PWM. When driving a DC motor brushless or otherwise you can use PWM to vary the speed you are just not creating an approximation of an AC frequency. Basically both a brushless DC drive and a VFD are DC chopper drives the difference is in the output. It should be trivial to make the VFD dc chopper output a DC PWM pulse. It does this anyway it just fakes and AC wave for the AC motor.


I would be interested to know how those HP curves were obtained?
And what type of control for the BLDC?
Here is part of a application paper that shows a comparison.
The BLDC typically will have max torque down to zero rpm.


Do not use a VFD to power a BLDC.
It is designed for different technology.
Al.

Krenovian
12-29-2011, 08:41 PM
You guys might be interested in this thread over on the Novakon forum: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/novakon_systems/133001-145_spindle_control_blew_again.html. Both the NM-145 and the NM-200 models of the Novakon mills had issues with their BLDC motors and drives. In this thread a couple of guys have made the switch to AC induction motors and appropriate VFDs on their NM-145s.

An updated version of the BLDC drive board seems to have resolved the low rpm low torque issues that the NM-145 motors were having. In the NM-200 they went to an AC spindle motor (AC brushless permanent magnet ?).

This thread has a long discussion of the 1.1 and the 2.2 Kw motors from Sangmutan and their drives. Keling was selling these and matching drives from Sangmutan and apparently they were the same motors and drives that Novakon and others (unspecified) were using in their machines. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop_machines/108728-want_control_your_spindle_mach3.html.

Because I'm interested in buying one of the NM-145's from Novakon I've been looking into options for dealing with any potential spindle motor/drive issues. The options for me come down to:
1) Replacing OEM motor and drive with an AC induction motor and VFD as Allen is doing.
2) Going with another BLDC motor and drive from a company like Adlee. At least one member here, Flexo!, has gone that route on a BF20 clone with good results. Here is a link to his website: Welcome to Home Machine Shop! (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&key=d518430b391b8a5b784d29eec78cd9ef&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnczone.com%2Fforums%2Fprivate.php%3Fdo%3Dshowpm%26pmid%3D381313&v=1&libid=1325209393820&out=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.homemachineshop.co.nz%2F&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnczone.com%2Fforums%2Fprivate.php&title=CNCzone.com-The%20Largest%20Machinist%20Community%20on%20the%20net!%20-%20Re%3A%20Replacement%20BLDC%20motor%20and%20driver%20for%20Sangmutan%20Motor&txt=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.homemachineshop.co.nz%2F&type=i&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13252093934973)
3) Changing to an AC Servo motor and drive. (Novakon began offering this option on the NM-145 last week)
4) Finding an agnostic drive which would work with the OEM motor such as the Teknic or Granite devices drives.

I'm looking into option 4) at the moment. Teknic claims that their drives work with any 3 phase brushless servo motor or brush motor. Draw back is they are OEM suppliers only and provide no end user support. Granite Devices claim their drives work with most permanent magnet brushed, brushless DC, and AC motors. Draw back to their drives is that they are limited to motors of 1.5 Kw or less. They will drive higher Kw motors but at decreased RPM. I don't think either company has a drive that will run AC Induction motors as well as all the permanent magnet types. Drives from Rutex. AMC and Larkin are all possibilities but I need to research them more. I'll also look into the drive that mcphill references which can be configured to run AC induction motors as well, though a cursory look suggests that it won't take step-direction input, only velocity in that configuration.

Option 1) is probably the cheapest route to go if you are planning on replacing both motor and drive. Main draw backs that I can see are weight and size of the motor. Option 2) appears to be up to 2x's more cost. Size and weight are similar to the OEM motors. Option 3) is also more expensive but with the inclusion of an encoder on servo motors, rigid tapping becomes an option. All of the above probably involve some sort of modification to the milling head to get new motors mounted and different sized pulleys may also be needed. Option 4) may be the cheapest route if it works, operative word here being the big "if". If it doesn't work then there is still the option of mounting an AC servo or other permanent magnet type motor.

There is some speculation that the problem with the Sangmutan BLDC motor and drive combination is the design/implementation of the drive. This would seem to be born out by the fact that the 2nd version of the drive for the 1.1 Kw motor seems to have solved the problems with low torque at low rpm. I wonder if this might be the case with the Mikinimech motor and drive. Any chance they were sourced from Sangmutan also?
Allen, thanks for starting this thread. I'll be following it hoping to gain some more information and options.

Curtis

Al_The_Man
12-29-2011, 08:52 PM
I suspect that torque curve for the BLDC was without feedback or a comprehensive controller.
The BLDC is still the motor of choice for electric vehicle use.
This article shows some of the advantages.
The BLDC can be made to approach or equal the DC brushed motor with the right controller.
Al.

Krenovian
12-29-2011, 08:53 PM
Bottom line I have a BLDC setup I will sell at a reasonable price ;).

Allen, I sent you a PM

Curtis

mcphill
12-30-2011, 05:19 PM
Option 3) is also more expensive but with the inclusion of an encoder on servo motors, rigid tapping becomes an option.

FWIW, "additional features with SpindleBlok include Spindle Orient and Rigid Tapping which require a spindle position sensor with derived information being sent to the machine controller." Now the SpindleBlok controller unfortunately does NOT work with BLDC motors : ( That said, I will be enquiring about the ability to add the positioning option to the DriveBlok, or getting the SpindleBlok to work with a BLDC if at all possible.

Again, the closest to plug and play with the best feature set at the most competitive cost is what I am going for... I see no reason to buy a new motor, unless the one in the Mikini is in some way defective. I have no reason to believe that to be the case. The drive, on the other hand, seems to be at the root of our issues...

Finally, BLDC motors do seem to have advantages in size, weight, torque, longevity, robustness... Seems like a worthwhile list to get our existing motor to work "right"... Cutting out the cost of having to buy yet another motor is just an additional benefit.

allenj20
12-31-2011, 11:52 AM
Hey Mike
Check it out BALDOR DC Brushless Adjustable Speed: BMC-Series (http://www.baldor.com/products/motioncontrol/dc_speed_controls.asp)

Also Brushless DC motor, Brushless motor controller, motor driver, stepper motor, DC pump, Brushless water pump, DC Cooling Fan, Mini CNC machine, Plastic mould, aluminum mould, tooling, damper actuator (http://www.sunflowgroup.com/ProductShow.asp?ArticleID=827)

And

Brushless DC motors with AC drive, Brushless motor (http://www.adlee.com/brushless_dc_motor_with_ac_driver.htm)

And

http://www.homemachineshop.co.nz/

Personally my choice would be Baldor but no word on the price. The second is a Chinese supplier I would skip that one.

The last two are a Taiwanese option which might be ok the last one is a guy in NZ that is a reseller for the Adlee drive.

allenj20
12-31-2011, 12:01 PM
Couple more things.

One Baldor does not mention using the BLDC for a machine tool spindle which may mean it's a misapplication of the technology. It may not be well suited to the task.

Here is a couple of videos of from the reseller of the Adlee

Adlee Powertronic AM370-H BLDC Tapping Video - YouTube

and

Adlee Powertronic AM370-H BLDC Testing Video - YouTube

One thing I would want to see is a .500 drilling operation in steel and some steel milling especially plunge or helical operations.

Al_The_Man
12-31-2011, 12:26 PM
The Baldor looks like an interesting candidate, one of my material suppliers is a Baldor rep, I will find out more from him.
The spec mentions it can be used in constant torque mode, as well as variable torque.
Al.

allenj20
12-31-2011, 01:56 PM
I was thinking more about this.

One thing I am having a hard time reconciling in my mind is. If BLDC tech is so good why do ours perform so poorly? I mean when I compare my Mikni spindle to my Bport clone spindle it is simply ridiculous how badly the Mikni compares.

I might make a video to demonstrate what I am talking about. When I use the recommended feeds and speeds with my Bport clone it cuts like butter. When I try that with my Mikini it's broken endmills and stalled spindles. There really is no comparison.

So I am thinking let's assume it is a real 3HP brushless DC motor. What about the controller could cause what we are seeing in the real world. Then it dawned on me it's in variable torque mode. That would explain what we are seeing. Many drives VFD and otherwise have two modes CT and VT constant torque and variable torque respectively. If this drive is VT only or in VT mode then that would totally explain the real world performance we see.

So it could be as easy as just replacing the drive with something like the Baldor drive in CT mode. That being said I still think integrating it with the Mikini electronics is not the way to go. Simply because I have found the Mikini main board to be flaky. I have seen the LCD flicker fade in and out you tap on it and it comes back. I have seen the steppers take off and keep going without input, spindle halts at no load etc... I also suspect the axis motion problems Swath mentions are probably the Mikini electronics I have seensome of the same stuff.

I find the Mikini electronics to not be worth keeping. I also think integrating with something with a wiring digram and spec sheet like the CNC4PC bobs will be a ton easier. Also for my uses I don't use the manual mode. If I am going to do some ad-hoc operations I use the NFS wizards in Mach3 which are awesome. I personally would much rather have the pendant in Mach3 rather than in a manual mode I never use. I would use it a lot more. So that is my focus.

I think someone should tackle the BLDC drive project as I think it would be interesting. Me I need a solution I KNOW will work. I need a machine tool for my hobbies more than I need a machine tool hobby.

Anyway that's my thoughts

:cheers:

mcphill
12-31-2011, 03:49 PM
Good points all around. What's so sad is that if it is in VT mode, then the speed control should be AWESOME. Well, mine drops from 800 to 500 rpm all the time, and takes 3-4 seconds to recover. That is CRAP performance. I think the spindle controller board is a home brew piece of crap not worthy of the mechanical ability of the rest of the machine. It seems much of the rest of the electronics are of the same quality...

I actually would prefer to have an MPG that KEPT it's position in MACH rather than the manual mode we have on the Mikini... I just hate to have that area on the machine where the display and torque meter, etc. are on the face of the Mikini that would display nothing! Then again, I could mount an MPG there, and a few buttons, etc. making it look like it is "supposed" to be there... Or open it up some and put a monitor in there? Or a small keyboard? Touchpad, holes for tools, ...

Hmmm...

BTW, while you are in there, why not swap out the stepper drivers to the new Tormach style too. I doubt the Mikini drivers are anything to write home about. I asked Phil for manuals for them so I could play with different microstepping settings, etc., but he wouldn't share : ( He was concerned I would mess something up. Guess he thinks he's the only one allowed to do that?

mcphill
12-31-2011, 03:51 PM
Looks interesting, but specifically states it uses the Hall sensors. The Parker drive doesn't need them. I really like everything I have read on Vector Drives. If the Parker doesn't work out I will look at the Baldor, though - certainly a worthy backup option. Thanks!

Al_The_Man
12-31-2011, 04:02 PM
What's so sad is that if it is in VT mode, then the speed control should be AWESOME. Well, mine drops from 800 to 500 rpm all the time, and takes 3-4 seconds to recover.

There is something wrong there, no way that should happen especially in a BLDC motor/drive that has feedback, and what is essentially a synchronous motor.
Al.

allenj20
12-31-2011, 05:41 PM
This is the stepper driver on my machine

TAIWAN HOW-MAU CNC MACHINERY, Mini Milling Machine, Desktop Lathe, -- Stepper Motor Driver(4.3A) (http://www.atron.com.tw/uwish/front/bin/ptdetail.phtml?Part=QTC-102)

It is an RTCL 2 phase stepper driver model number PD2064MA002

I also attached a doc file for it there is probably more info on the net somewhere.

It's really stupid that Phil won't share this info as there is nothing proprietary about it. It is a standard off the shelf Chinese stepper motor driver.

allenj20
12-31-2011, 08:38 PM
Also I am thinking once I get the system up and running under Mach control with the CNC4PC BOB I will work on making a custom front control panel as well

mcphill
01-01-2012, 03:50 PM
This is the stepper driver on my machine

TAIWAN HOW-MAU CNC MACHINERY, Mini Milling Machine, Desktop Lathe, -- Stepper Motor Driver(4.3A) (http://www.atron.com.tw/uwish/front/bin/ptdetail.phtml?Part=QTC-102)

It is an RTCL 2 phase stepper driver model number PD2064MA002

I also attached a doc file for it there is probably more info on the net somewhere.

It's really stupid that Phil won't share this info as there is nothing proprietary about it. It is a standard off the shelf Chinese stepper motor driver.

Thanks!

I agree with the lack of documentation. I don't understand the need to "keep it close to the vest". It's not like he would be liable if I killed myself, but that seems to be what he thinks... Of course, a jury is likely to rule either way as well...

allenj20
01-01-2012, 08:48 PM
Here's a quick video update got the VFD and motor dialed in.

Mikini 1610L AC Motor and VFD replacement project video 1 - YouTube

SWATH
01-01-2012, 09:38 PM
That's awesome Allen, I would love to see video demonstrating the performance difference when cutting between the BLDC and your new one, especially on the RPM range.

mcphill
01-01-2012, 09:48 PM
That's awesome Allen, I would love to see video demonstrating the performance difference when cutting between the BLDC and your new one, especially on the RPM range.

I've been contemplating how to show the difference when I do mine... I don't want to have to swap back and forth, but I do want to be able to show setup "A" couldn't do X, but setup "B" can...

Any suggestions?

Maybe a 1/2 slot endmill and let it ramp down in to aluminum until it stalls?

allenj20
01-01-2012, 11:28 PM
Another quick video update

It's going to be a tight fit.

Mikini 1610L AC Motor and VFD replacement project video 2 - YouTube

mcphill
01-01-2012, 11:34 PM
Another quick video update

It's going to be a tight fit.

Mikini 1610L AC Motor and VFD replacement project video 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IMFq6Owbas)

Would you mind taking some pix/video down in the "hole" where the motor spindle/pulley sits? Curious what it looks like in there...

SWATH
01-02-2012, 01:16 AM
I've been contemplating how to show the difference when I do mine... I don't want to have to swap back and forth, but I do want to be able to show setup "A" couldn't do X, but setup "B" can...

Any suggestions?

Maybe a 1/2 slot endmill and let it ramp down in to aluminum until it stalls?

Good question. The ramping is a good idea but you only have so deep you can go. I'm thinking maybe multiple full depth slots at increasing feeds until it stalls, perhaps at low RPM spindle speeds calculated for steel instead of Al.

allenj20
01-02-2012, 06:26 PM
Would you mind taking some pix/video down in the "hole" where the motor spindle/pulley sits? Curious what it looks like in there...

Here ya go Mike

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0057.jpg

allenj20
01-02-2012, 06:30 PM
Here is what I have for the motor mount assembly CAD is more or less done just need to do the CAM now.

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/motormount-assembly.JPG



http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/motormount-assembly2.JPG

mcphill
01-02-2012, 09:25 PM
Here ya go Mike

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0057.jpg

Wow, lots of room down in there!

Al_The_Man
01-10-2012, 04:24 PM
Anyone have, or know of a BLDC spindle motor off of these machines that would be available for testing and evaluation with various drives, including new design?
Someone replaced with a motor and VFD maybe?
Please PM me with cost if one is available.
Al.

allenj20
01-11-2012, 03:01 PM
Al PM sent

Here is another video update

This is from last weekend the motor mount is about done.

http://youtu.be/28grkYwIitY

Work is currently slowing me down a bit.

Should get a chance to work on it more tonight

allenj20
01-11-2012, 03:07 PM
My thinking on showing the difference between the BLDC and AC motor is steel milling. That seems to be what the system currently struggles to accomplish due to the lower RPMs called for steel. At 3500-6500 in Aluminium the BLDC does a reasonable job.

slowtwitch
01-11-2012, 03:25 PM
Anyone have, or know of a BLDC spindle motor off of these machines that would be available for testing and evaluation with various drives, including new design?
Someone replaced with a motor and VFD maybe?
Please PM me with cost if one is available.
Al.

Al, I have a spare motor, but, I would need to put it back together. It's the motor that Mikini said I broke the lead off at the winding, when I removed it off the mill.

Allen, I'm watching your conversion very closely. The only change I would make, if i decide to convert, is to use a 2 pole (3600 rpm) motor, since most of what I do is with aluminum :)

Al_The_Man
01-11-2012, 04:15 PM
If using a VFD why not go up to 120Hz with a 4 pole?
Al.

allenj20
01-11-2012, 11:34 PM
That is exactly what I am doing.



If using a VFD why not go up to 120Hz with a 4 pole?
Al.

allenj20
01-12-2012, 01:38 AM
The machining on the main plate for the motor mount is done. Just have to do the side pieces. I had one screw up were it ramped in too early on one of the counterbored holes because I mis-measured a tool offset. you can see it in the second photo below. At first I considered starting over but then after thinking about it I realized it did not affect the function in any way so I decided to move forward as is.

More to come

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/photo.jpg

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/photo%201.JPG

Sweeney
01-12-2012, 12:03 PM
Looks good, Allen. I'm following closely as I may head down the same path (or something similar). Heck, I've considered using a 3hp router motor with speed control just to get chips flying.

zarthcode
01-14-2012, 10:30 PM
Watching this thread w/great interest. I recently engaged Mikini to start planning a purchase, but I somehow didn't notice this issue until today. May buy a machine sans electronics for CNC control only. Keep up the good work!

allenj20
01-16-2012, 01:01 AM
Not much progress on the motor swap this weekend. I spent most of the weekend building a new Mach3 controller for the mill and dealing with Gremlins that came out of the swap.

The computer I had running the mill was the original one I bought from Mikini with the Mill. I was having a problem between it and the smoothstepper. It seemed to me like it could not keep up with the smoothstepper. In terms of the USB bus.

What would happen is, well in to a long program, it would sometimes give me an error saying the the smoothstepper had run out of data during a move operation. I noticed when this would happen that the touchscreen and keyboard would become unresponsive. All of those things are on the USB bus so I suspect the 1.2Ghz Atom processor that came in the controller was not keeping up somehow.

So I decided to build a new control computer. I used the Tormach controller as the basis for my design. Mine uses the same case, power supply and motherboard as the Tormach controller. It has a 2.33 Ghz Core 2 Duo and 3 GBs of RAM. Here's the breakdown from Newegg.

CASE APEX|MI-008 BK 250W RT
$55.99

Motherboard INTEL|BOXDG41AN G41 LGA775 RTL
$71.99

CPU INTEL|C2D E6550 2.33G 4M REC
$71.99

MEM 2Gx2|PATRIOT PSD34G1333K R
$21.99

45nm Low Profile CPU fan
$23.99


I created a special version of Windows XP using nlite (http://www.nliteos.com/). Nlite is a utility that let's you modify and create custom ISOs of Windows. I slipstreamed in service pack 3 and nlite let's you remove parts of Windows XP so I also removed a bunch of Windows components. Basically if I did not need it for Mach3 I removed it. So things like security center and windows update and a bunch of unneeded services are gone final ISO was 284MB. I also disabled the internal LAN card and Audio card in the BIOS if it does not have to do with Mach 3 it's out. And finally I installed the Standard PC HAL instead of the normal ACPI HAL. to remove any power management shenanigans and simplify things as much as possible. The standard PC HAL is a very primitive hardware abstraction layer it removes the ACPI layer and the advanced programmable interrupt controller that can cause issues with interrupts. It simplifies interrupt control to a very primitive setup that is better suited for something like Mach3 which is interrupt latency sensitive and is trying to do realtime work on a non-realtime OS.

Here's the Mach3 guide to Windows XP optimization (http://www.machsupport.com/downloads/XP_Optimization.txt)

After getting everything setup and all the drivers installed I was getting a whole new error from the smoothstepper this one was very consistent anytime you would turn on the spindle you would get an FT_IO_ERROR. The smoothstepper uses the FTDI USB chip for USB coms and this error is caused by a noise issue. What I had to do to fix it was run a ground wire from one of the PC power supply screws to the ground plane of the Mikini. That seemed to equalize the ground between the two and all was good after that. I won't know for sure if I am past the original smoothstepper running out of data error until I try a long program.

Next up is to code up and machine the side plates for the motor mount.

mcphill
01-16-2012, 02:06 PM
May be TOTALLY unrelated, but I have heard that running MACH3 on long programs can be an issue if you have the tooling simulation active. Did the same program work when you were NOT on the SmoothStepper?

I bought a SmoothStepper with the Mikini but never installed it. I have since seen Bob Warfields comments that state the SS can be a great benefit - is it as easy as plugging it in and creating a new profile to make use of it? That seems to be too easy to be true, but I believe if I don't hit any of the issues you did, that might be all it takes...

allenj20
01-17-2012, 10:24 PM
May be TOTALLY unrelated, but I have heard that running MACH3 on long programs can be an issue if you have the tooling simulation active. Did the same program work when you were NOT on the SmoothStepper?

I bought a SmoothStepper with the Mikini but never installed it. I have since seen Bob Warfields comments that state the SS can be a great benefit - is it as easy as plugging it in and creating a new profile to make use of it? That seems to be too easy to be true, but I believe if I don't hit any of the issues you did, that might be all it takes...

So on the smoothstepper. You will need the smoothstepper driver and the mach3 smoothstepper plugin both pretty straightforwad and available form here (http://warp9td.com/downloads.htm)

It pretty much does what the tin says makes smooth steps.

slowtwitch
01-19-2012, 03:07 PM
Allen, did you have to do anything special to get the Mikini to recognize the smooth stepper. I tried mine and I just get a "computer not ready " message.

allenj20
01-19-2012, 03:59 PM
How did you plug it in Pete? You need to have a DB25 to LPH26 connector. Something like

http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=204

That goes from the end of the Mikini parallel cable to port 1 of the smoothstepper board.

Here is a great guide on getting it all setup in Windows

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/Installing_and_Configuring_the_SmoothStepper.pdf

:cheers:


Allen, did you have to do anything special to get the Mikini to recognize the smooth stepper. I tried mine and I just get a "computer not ready " message.

slowtwitch
01-19-2012, 07:11 PM
Thanks Allen, Arturo's site (CNC4PC) had a pinout of the connector. So, I decided to double check the old one I had laying around. I ohmed it out and sure enough, one of the connections (pin 3) was bad ...just my luck..lol ....I have ordered a couple new ones. We'll give it a go when they arrive.

allenj20
02-11-2012, 01:02 AM
Here's an update for you guys,

So I have been talking to Phil about swapping out my pulley for the correct one which he said he would do. I still plan on going ahead with my replacement project I just wanted the correct pulley for side by side testing. I looked around on the web and could not find any HTD 5MM pulleys for 20MM belts. There are plenty out there for 15MM and 25MM but 20MM belts I could not find.

So I asked Phil if he would swap it as he had originally offered when I discovered I had the wrong one. He said sure no problem I figure great I will have 40% more torque while I am working on the conversion and I can do side by side comparison of the spindle drives.

He wanted me to pull the motor and ship it back to him so they could swap the pulley. I said no way to that. Even if I have the wrong size pulley on my motor it currently spins and I have seen what they did to Pete's motor with the ball peen hammer installation job. So there was no way in hell I was going to take my mill completely out of commission and ship my motor back to Phil. So I asked if he would cross ship me a refurb motor with the correct pulley installed. He said sure no problem.

So he sends me an invoice for the refurb. The plan being once I get the refurb with the correct pulley install it and verify it's working condition I would then ship my current motor back to him and he would refund my credit card for the refurb. Phil said he would ship it out Monday. Well OK I admit I am an idiot for having anything to do with Mikini I am not sure what I was thinking.

I got a ship notification on Monday and so I was like cool motor with new pulley should be here by Friday. So today is Friday no motor I check the tracking and while UPS shows a label being created they have not actually received a package for shipping from Phil. This is not the first time I have had this happen when buying parts from Phil.

The last time I bought a spindle load board from Phil he did the same thing created the label and didn't actually ship anything. That was last year I ordered the part 4/1/2011 and recieved it sometime in late June after he said he shipped it on 4/4/2011.


I just sent Phil this email.

Hi Phil,

I got a notice that the motor shipped. I check today and find out
while a shipping label has been created nothing has actually been
received by UPS. You said you were going to ship this past Monday.
What's the deal? I am a little surprised you are still doing business
this way after all the negative feedback you have received for it
recently. You know the laws of reciprocity are as real as the law of
gravity. What comes around goes around and there is no way you can
continue to do business like this and stay in business. I guarantee
you bad things will befall your business if this is how you conduct
it. People will simply not want to have anything to do with your
company. It really boggles the mind.

Anyway back to working on the conversion. What a waste of time.

allenj20
02-12-2012, 11:32 PM
The oiler stopped working on my Mikini. It just stopped pumping oil. So I tried replacing the o-rings inside to get it working. After that failed I opted for a replacement oiler. My Machine had a manual type oiler so I found this $50 Taiwan made version on ebay. I have the same one on my manual mill and it works great plus it's relatively inexpensive. I just have it temporarily mounted with one screw. I need a longer oil line to mount it properly. Speaking of which does anyone know where I can get the line and fittings to replace the line with a longer one?

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/oiler.JPG

Also I finished the plate today. Here are some pics. I ended up re-doing the top plate due to some mistakes I made on the first one. This one is exactly as I wanted it. I will be ordering a custom timing pulley from B&B with a QD bushing tomorrow. And then I also need to make some mounting brackets for the gas springs as well.

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/motor-plate2.JPG


http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/motor-plate4.JPG


http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/motor-plate3.JPG


http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/motor-plate1.JPG

slowtwitch
02-13-2012, 06:15 AM
Nice work!!!!! Gives me a warm feeling all over...:D

As for the hose, try these guys....

Hydraulic Hose > Discount Hydraulic Hose.com (http://www.discounthydraulichose.com/Hydraulic_Hose_s/84.htm?Click=13051&gclid=COSozeXomq4CFUFN4Aod8CGNKQ)

I use them for my engine rebuilds.

Brian L
02-13-2012, 07:16 AM
You can try these guys, but be prepared to be shocked, their prices are usually high:

SHOWA, BIJUR, LUBE USA, VOGEL, Lubricating systems, lubrication - Devco Corporation (http://www.devcocorp.com/american/shoa4new-usa.html)

Or, Trico is another good source:

Products - Central Lubrication (http://www.tricocorp.com/products/category.aspx?c=14)

I had to replace all my metering units on my Milltronics mill, this is the place that had the best deal at the time, whether they can help with lines or not, I don't know, but exceptionally good people to deal with:

RAS Machine Tool (http://www.rasmachinetool.com/)

Oh, you can check Graingers too, they do carry some of the metering units, just didn't have the specific threads I needed, so if they carry the units, they most likely have hoses and tubing.

mcphill
02-23-2012, 12:45 PM
Allen,

Any updates or progress to report?

SWATH
02-23-2012, 03:40 PM
Just found and interesting read on the Tormach drive selection:
Engineering Documents - VFD | Tormach LLC | We provide personal small CNC machines, CNC tooling, and many more CNC items (http://www.tormach.com/engineering_vfd.html)

mcphill
02-23-2012, 04:10 PM
Just found and interesting read on the Tormach drive selection:
Engineering Documents - VFD | Tormach LLC | We provide personal small CNC machines, CNC tooling, and many more CNC items (http://www.tormach.com/engineering_vfd.html)

Too bad they don't list and model ir part info...

SWATH
02-23-2012, 04:13 PM
Shouldn't be too hard to find. I think it's an Emerson, that's what I remember anyway.

mcphill
02-23-2012, 06:32 PM
I think too hard at work, I need some spoon feeding ; )

Our problem will be either integrating it with the Mikini safety wiring, or gut ripping all the manual mode stuff out. Not a simple plug-and-play, I don't think... Could be, but we need more info that Mikini clearly is not willing to supply... Again, I don't have the energy to reverse engineer it right now. I haven't even turned my mill on in a few weeks...

allenj20
02-23-2012, 07:17 PM
So I have made some progress on mounting the gas springs . I have made a couple of aluminium brackets for mounting the springs. I should have them all mounted by this weekend I will post an update with pics hopefully. I also ordered some custom timing pulleys from B&B manufacturing and they are backordered 8-10 weeks. So I am going to have to figure out an alternative. I know Pete pulled his pulley from the motor himself successfully I would be curious how he did that since it is a thermal fit. If I could do that I could pull the old pulley and machine in to fit a QD bushing or thermal fit for the new motor.

Sweeney
02-23-2012, 07:21 PM
Allen, if you're going to scrap the Mikini motor and plan to machine the pulley just lop it off or drill out the motor shaft. You could also try heating the pulley and pressing it off.

slowtwitch
02-23-2012, 07:40 PM
I know Pete pulled his pulley from the motor himself successfully I would be curious how he did that since it is a thermal fit. If I could do that I could pull the old pulley and machine in to fit a QD bushing or thermal fit for the new motor.

I used a bearing separator and puller...like this setup....

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f109/slowtwitch/bearingpuller.jpg

heat up the pulley ( I used a map gas bottle from home depot) ....plus the help of a nice impact gun to turn the puller bolt :)

To re-install, I wrapped the rotor in aluminum (so the wife wouldn't know what it was) and put it in the freezer overnight. The next day I pulled out the rotor and heated up the pulley really good. It slipped right on :)

Sweeney
02-23-2012, 07:59 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who uses kitchen appliances for stuff like this. The most use my Jenn-Air Pro Line range has gotten so far is to heat parkerizing solution to refinish some firearms parts. :)

allenj20
02-23-2012, 09:44 PM
Thanks Pete, I should be able to swing that. Any recommendation on which bearing separator and puller set to pick up. I think HF might have this one local Bearing Separator and Puller Set (http://www.harborfreight.com/bearing-separator-and-puller-set-93980.html) and Advance Auto Parts might have this one OTC 4518 5 Ton Bar-Type Puller/Bearing Splitter Set (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS459US459&q=bearing+separator+%26+puller+set&gs_upl=&ix=sea&ion=1&um=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1600&bih=756&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9403540012634207067&sa=X&ei=VfhGT6eQCq_5sQKgs8jqCA&ved=0CGkQ8wIwAA)

I used a bearing separator and puller...like this setup....

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f109/slowtwitch/bearingpuller.jpg

heat up the pulley ( I used a map gas bottle from home depot) ....plus the help of a nice impact gun to turn the puller bolt :)

To re-install, I wrapped the rotor in aluminum (so the wife wouldn't know what it was) and put it in the freezer overnight. The next day I pulled out the rotor and heated up the pulley really good. It slipped right on :)

slowtwitch
02-24-2012, 06:46 AM
Actually, my puller and separator came from harbor freight. I like to use the separator due to its nice contact point on the pulley.

allenj20
02-24-2012, 10:13 PM
Video update

You guys are going to love this

Mikini AC Motor and VFD replacement project Video 4 - YouTube

FannBlade
02-24-2012, 10:36 PM
Great Video. So much for press fit. Wife was wondering what I was laughing at!

skray775
02-24-2012, 11:43 PM
Nice!

slowtwitch
02-25-2012, 07:17 AM
LOLOLOLO !!!!!! I was drinking my coffee and laughed a bunch of it up my nose :)

mcphill
02-25-2012, 11:00 PM
So now the question is, how well is the pulley attached to the spindle?!

allenj20
02-26-2012, 07:03 PM
Another update

Got the pulley attached to the new motor. I bored it out on the lathe to 0.0015" smaller than the shaft. So the interference fit is class FN-2 according to my machinery handbook. I stuck the motor in the freezer overnight and heated the pulley with a propane torch I was then able to tap the pulley on with a brass hammer.

It's a good shrink fit it's not going anywhere.

I got the plate and motor attached to the mill all the fabrication is more or less done. Next is all the wiring.

I went ahead and ordered Keling's new digital stepper drivers the KL-8070D (http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/digital-stepper-motor-driver/digital-stepper-driver-kl-8070d-heat-sink-is-included) These things are getting rave reviews so I figure why not plus it will make the wiring that much easier as it has screw terminals for the wiring. I will test the Mikini power supplies and as long as the voltage is good and steady I will keep them otherwise they are out too.

Pics and video update as well.

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0130.JPG

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0132.JPG

Mikini 1610L AC Motor and VFD replacement project Video 5 - YouTube

slowtwitch
02-26-2012, 07:30 PM
Allen.....Looks Great!!!! I have the Keling 8070d drives on my retrofitted Emco lathe ...they are really nice :)

allenj20
02-26-2012, 10:25 PM
Thanks Pete I think I am getting pretty close now.


Allen.....Looks Great!!!! I have the Keling 8070d drives on my retrofitted Emco lathe ...they are really nice :)

allenj20
03-04-2012, 04:41 PM
So it's moving under it's own power again with the new electronics. So making progress I am sort of stuck on the proximity sensors because I have no data on these. So I am not sure how to wire them to the C23. Anyone have any data on these things?

Al_The_Man
03-04-2012, 04:58 PM
So I am not sure how to wire them to the C23. Anyone have any data on these things?

2 wire or 3 wire? any part number?
Al.

allenj20
03-04-2012, 05:25 PM
2 wire or 3 wire? any part number?
Al.

they are three wire it has P1204 and C32H on it.

allenj20
03-04-2012, 05:38 PM
I think they are 12 volt NPN NO just guessing. Though I did measure the output voltage for the limit switch ports on the mikini part and so I know it's 12 volt

mcphill
03-04-2012, 06:16 PM
I think this is the right datasheet:

http://www.ia.omron.com/data_pdf/data_sheet/tl-n_tl-q_ds_csm468.pdf

allenj20
03-04-2012, 09:27 PM
ok I figured out how to wire them up I think. Pin 1 is +12V pin 2 is signal and Pin 3 is -12v. The problem I have is that it's active low, but it's high signal is only about 1V which won't work with the TTL logic of this BOB. TTL high is a minimum of 2 Volts. Can anyone recommend a good 5V or 12V TTL output photo interrupter switch for use with a cnc4pc C23

mcphill
03-10-2012, 10:02 AM
Allen, I think we are all ready for a video of the machine up and running the new spindle, with now issues... Will that happen this weekend?

Best of luck to you and keep us updated!

allenj20
03-10-2012, 10:22 AM
It might, I got some new home switches in this week. I am going to work on getting them fitted and working today. Then after that it's work on wiring up the spindle itself. Here is a picture from last week. This is in the machine now and the new stepper drivers are working well. I will try and post another update this weekend.

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0137.JPG



Allen, I think we are all ready for a video of the machine up and running the new spindle, with now issues... Will that happen this weekend?

Best of luck to you and keep us updated!

mcphill
03-30-2012, 09:52 AM
Allen,

How's that update coming? Waiting patiently!

allenj20
03-30-2012, 12:03 PM
Progress report, I got the Y and Z axis home switches mounted and working Pretty easily. The X axis was another matter entirely. I have about two days of fiddling in to that one switch. The problem is the new switch is not lining up with metal flag. And nothing is easily accessible or visible on that axis. The switch has gotten ripped off 3 times and the screws got sheared. So I had to go back to the drawing board on that one. I am going to try replacing that switch with a hall effect switch and magnet.

I have been out of town three weeks now. The first two weeks on business and this last week on vacation in Hawaii. So that has slowed progress a lot. I am hoping to take a whole week off in two weeks to finish the project.

allenj20
04-09-2012, 12:54 AM
Progress at last. That one X switch took far too long. Spindle is turning again getting close.

Mikini 1610L AC motor and VFD replacement project Video 6 - YouTube

FannBlade
04-09-2012, 01:12 AM
Hey if you have time could you document how you hook up the coolant to the BOB I have a similar board C11T and would like to run mine through the board also if you could show VFD hook up I don't have the Hitachi but any real world connection would probably help.

Build is really coming along and looks very professional. Spindle sounds really smooth I bet it will make some nice smooth cuts.

slowtwitch
04-09-2012, 06:55 AM
Looking good Allen!!!!! I really like how the motor sounded at full RPM. I don't think you'll have any issue of the motor faulting :)

Once, I get caught up with some customers, I'll be doing the same retrofit. My disappearing screen issue is coming back and I just don't want to waste time with the Mikini electronics anymore.

As for hooking up the VFD to the c23, I have a c11 on my lathe and I'm pretty sure i used both relays to run the vfd....I'll check tonight. I think one relay was used to stop and start and the other was for reversing. To run the coolant pump, I bought a relay board from Arturo (cnc4pc) and just hooked it up to an output pin.

Lastly, you'll really enjoy those digital drives when in actual use....they are really nice.

mcphill
04-09-2012, 10:12 AM
Looking good, Allen, thanks for the update! Really interested to see how the VFD does on lower speed cuts in steel - that is my main issue with the system right now. Cutting high speed in aluminum works fine, but it just has no guts when trying to go slow...

The steppers sound REALLY good too, on the new drivers. Those are the original stepper motors on the axis drives, right?

Finally, I see your have an older machine with the metal front door. My newer one is all plastic. I believe the X-axis switch on my machine is already located where you put yours...

allenj20
04-09-2012, 12:04 PM
I will document the coolant hookup. Its pretty straight forward just run the AC hot through the relay NO side. I will also document the programming and wiring for the VFD. Thanks for the kind words.


Hey if you have time could you document how you hook up the coolant to the BOB I have a similar board C11T and would like to run mine through the board also if you could show VFD hook up I don't have the Hitachi but any real world connection would probably help.

Build is really coming along and looks very professional. Spindle sounds really smooth I bet it will make some nice smooth cuts.

allenj20
04-09-2012, 12:08 PM
Thanks Pete, I think your right about the relays I remember seeing that on the instructions now. Wish I coul work on the mill this evening but I am off to Dallas for work unfortunately.


Looking good Allen!!!!! I really like how the motor

sounded at full RPM. I don't think you'll have any issue of the motor faulting :)

Once, I get caught up with some customers, I'll be doing the same retrofit. My disappearing screen issue is coming back and I just don't want to waste time with the Mikini electronics anymore.

As for hooking up the VFD to the c23, I have a c11 on my lathe and I'm pretty sure i used both relays to run the vfd....I'll check tonight. I think one relay was used to stop and start and the other was for reversing. To run the coolant pump, I bought a relay board from Arturo (cnc4pc) and just hooked it up to an output pin.

Lastly, you'll really enjoy those digital drives when in actual use....they are really nice.

allenj20
04-09-2012, 12:10 PM
Thanks mike, yes those are the original steppers the new drivers are sweet.


Looking good, Allen, thanks for the update! Really interested to see how the VFD does on lower speed cuts in steel - that is my main issue with the system right now. Cutting high speed in aluminum works fine, but it just has no guts when trying to go slow...

The steppers sound REALLY good too, on the new drivers. Those are the original stepper motors on the axis drives, right?

Finally, I see your have an older machine with the metal front door. My newer one is all plastic. I believe the X-axis switch on my machine is already located where you put yours...

howecnc
04-10-2012, 04:57 PM
Alan,
I would like to know the total cost of the parts for this project if you don't mind sharing.

Chris

Sweeney
04-10-2012, 06:15 PM
Looking great Alan. I'm about to start ordering parts to begin the transformation of mine into a Mik-Allen. :)

allenj20
04-10-2012, 06:22 PM
Alan,
I would like to know the total cost of the parts for this project if you don't mind sharing.

Chris

Hi Chris,

No problem here are the costs so far not including shipping

Marathon Micro Max Motor 2HP Y368 429.00
WJ200-015SF Hitachi VFD 283.00
KL-8070D Keling Digital Bipolar Drivers (not neccessary but better) 120 x 3

360.00
CNC4PC C23 BOB 198.00
CNC4PC MPG 2 (also not necessary) 198.00
C22 pendant interface board (also not necessary) 29.65
Honeywell 785-HOA6990-T51 limit swithes 41.0
Various wiring and cabling stuff ~100.00

total ~1440.65

allenj20
04-10-2012, 06:28 PM
Looking great Alan. I'm about to start ordering parts to begin the transformation of mine into a Mik-Allen. :)

Thanks man, we do need to come up with a new name for it franken-mikini? :cheers:

allenj20
04-17-2012, 11:53 AM
Video update number 7

The spindle is now under Mach control

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCj3UDHdVCg&feature=player_detailpage

FannBlade
04-17-2012, 11:58 AM
Thank you for the Vid I watched it earlier this morning. Makes a whole lot more sense when I can "see" the wiring.
Thank you!!!

Sweeney
04-17-2012, 02:39 PM
Thanks for the update, Allen! Looking good...

slowtwitch
04-17-2012, 05:32 PM
This is getting exciting!!!!!!

howecnc
04-21-2012, 02:02 PM
Lets see some chips being made already!

allenj20
04-21-2012, 03:03 PM
One small problem, actually one big problem. I can't get to the Mikini right now because this showed up yesterday.

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0167.JPG

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0172.JPG

Going to have to get it in place and everything back in place today.

FannBlade
04-21-2012, 06:23 PM
Dad...can move back home! Wish i problems like that here.

slowtwitch
04-22-2012, 12:36 PM
That is one nice lathe, Allen ...good luck with it :)

allenj20
04-23-2012, 10:43 AM
Video update number 8

Making chips w00t! :rainfro:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W33eJi9_k4

Sweeney
04-23-2012, 11:06 AM
Looks awesome, Allen! I'm ready to order my motor mount now!
Do you plan to document all that you've done? ...could be a 'Best Seller' ;o)

Brian L
04-23-2012, 11:54 AM
Very nice, and the way the machine should have come in the beginning. I'd like to see that same cut but .25" or .50" deep per pass and see what it sounds like then.

Excellent work on the refit, Phil should be taking notes.... and I bet your replacement parts would cost him less than what he's using in volume OEM purchasing....

FannBlade
04-23-2012, 12:19 PM
Nice Job. Sounds really really smooth.
Sucks you had to go through all that work and money to get it right. But sounds like the end result was spot on.

SWATH
04-23-2012, 12:49 PM
Yup ALL those issues you detailed with the original spindle are EXACTLY what I'm experiencing. I don't know why but I find if very hard to cut anything without chipping my endmills. I can do the most uninterrupted cut with the most conservative lead in but still manage to get chipped tools. In fact yesterday I was cutting a slot with a 3/8 rougher in 4140 and no matter what feedrate I had it would chatter and ended up chipped the flutes. I started to suspect that maybe it is again the spindle causing this somehow because the the RPM dips way down when the endmill contacts the part before it starts to stabilize within the cut. I've found Gwizard to be useless when trying to program feeds and speeds because of this spindle, even the most conservative setting on the turtle is waaay too aggressive. I suppose it works just fine if you just pretend it's a Taig or something and use it like that. In fact while trying to CAREFULLY wipe some weird staining off of the spindle face with a paper towel and mild pressure while spinning I could hear the spindle slow down from just the friction

Your new motor sounds fantastic in that cut, whereas mine sounds like a train trying to come to a screeching halt half of the time. I've got to wear earmuffs. Anyway I'm off to reorder tools now.

allenj20
04-23-2012, 10:29 PM
Thanks Pete

Can't believe I signed up for another project. But at least this one I knew was going to be a project.


That is one nice lathe, Allen ...good luck with it :)

allenj20
04-23-2012, 10:31 PM
Thanks John,

Your motor mount is on my list up next.



Looks awesome, Allen! I'm ready to order my motor mount now!
Do you plan to document all that you've done? ...could be a 'Best Seller' ;o)

allenj20
04-23-2012, 10:32 PM
Hey Thanks,

It does suck don't buy a Mikini unless you plan on replacing the electronics would be my advice.


Nice Job. Sounds really really smooth.
Sucks you had to go through all that work and money to get it right. But sounds like the end result was spot on.

allenj20
04-23-2012, 10:33 PM
I feel your pain is all I can say.


Yup ALL those issues you detailed with the original spindle are EXACTLY what I'm experiencing. I don't know why but I find if very hard to cut anything without chipping my endmills. I can do the most uninterrupted cut with the most conservative lead in but still manage to get chipped tools. In fact yesterday I was cutting a slot with a 3/8 rougher in 4140 and no matter what feedrate I had it would chatter and ended up chipped the flutes. I started to suspect that maybe it is again the spindle causing this somehow because the the RPM dips way down when the endmill contacts the part before it starts to stabilize within the cut. I've found Gwizard to be useless when trying to program feeds and speeds because of this spindle, even the most conservative setting on the turtle is waaay too aggressive. I suppose it works just fine if you just pretend it's a Taig or something and use it like that. In fact while trying to CAREFULLY wipe some weird staining off of the spindle face with a paper towel and mild pressure while spinning I could hear the spindle slow down from just the friction

Your new motor sounds fantastic in that cut, whereas mine sounds like a train trying to come to a screeching halt half of the time. I've got to wear earmuffs. Anyway I'm off to reorder tools now.

allenj20
04-24-2012, 12:37 AM
Two more video updates, Man I should have done this retrofit about a year ago. The new spindle works.

Mikni 1610L AC motor and VFD replacement project video 9 - YouTube

Mikni 1610L AC motor and VFD replacement project video 10 - YouTube

slowtwitch
04-24-2012, 06:21 AM
This is going to be one of my top priorities this summer....converting my Mikini to an AC drive. Allen, I watch your videos and I'm in awe at what your machine does compared to mine. I would have been in a few spindle halts and alarms with the cuts you did.

Great job and thanks for posting the updates, it's really encouraging to see the full potential of this machine.

Brian L
04-24-2012, 08:57 AM
Allen,

Great results and you can definitely tell that spindle can actually do some cutting now! You could hear a bit of load with the shell mill, but the 1/2" carbide rougher sounded sweet... I think you will find you have opened up a whole new world of kick ass metal removal now.

Oh... you don't need to slow down the rpm on that shell mill if you don't want to... carbide on aluminum can go way faster than 5400 rpm with a 1.5" diameter cutter, regardless of what the books and calculators say. I had a 10,000 rpm spindle on a Fadal and ran more like 4" diameter cutters... only rpm limit was what was specified on the body of the cutter.

mcphill
04-24-2012, 09:30 AM
Allen, looks great so far. If you have the chance to cut some steel as well, so we can see the performance at a lower spindle rate, I would appreciate it! That's where I am "falling down" today with the current spindle.

SWATH
04-24-2012, 10:34 AM
That's great! Although I have a hard time converting cutting aluminum to cutting steel as I have never really cut aluminum. The only thing I cut is 4140HT and ABS at least so far. All I know is that my hobbled spindle doesn't spin fast enough (3300 RPM) to efficiently cut ABS, and it doesn't have any guts to cut steel at least reliably of efficiently. I can barely get a drill over .5 to work especially a HSS one. It's like I can't do anything without a spindle halt or chipped tools or usually both. The max I can face mill is 3" WOC, .005" DOC and that is pinging around 60-70% spindle load.

Do you have a way yet to determine spindle load?

Sweeney
04-26-2012, 11:03 AM
I just ordered my motor, VFD and main board for my Mik-Allen project. I'll need to pick your brain, Allen, for the rest of the bits like power supply, etc.

I really appreciate the work you've put into this!

howecnc
04-26-2012, 07:13 PM
I am surprised that Mikini has not posted any comments on these modifications. They must still watch this forum.

SWATH
04-27-2012, 09:25 AM
We do not condone the action of the poster due to the highly dangerous procedures and/or but not limited to the questionable outcome of varying the operating parameters outside of design specifications given that the origin of the "problems" the user claims to be experiencing are no doubt due to the unbalanced and unclean supply power as well as improper grounding that is common among ignorant residential users lacking appropriate accreditation from an institute specializing in isolating electrical anomalies specific to our industrial grade machines. We highly recommend in the strongest terms that no one attempt anything remotely close and/or otherwise similar to the detailed actions perpetrated by the user. Doing so will automatically cancel and void any remaining warranty or technical support privileges and may subject the unwise user to an inoperable or otherwise malfunctioning machine and serious injury or death of but not limited to the user and the user's family, pets, and/or neighbors. The AC modification of the spindle motor and driver is far inferior to the BLDC used in our industrial machines anyway so such actions are effectively taking a step backwards in technology and performance. (BTW Allen contact us, we would like to know how you did that, so cool)

Just pullin' ya tit mate.:D

Sweeney
04-27-2012, 09:31 AM
We do not condone the action of the poster due to the highly dangerous procedures and/or but not limited to the questionable outcome of varying the operating parameters outside of design specifications given that the origin of the "problems" the user claims to be experiencing are no doubt due to the unbalanced and unclean supply power as well as improper grounding that is common among ignorant residential users lacking appropriate accreditation from an institute specializing in isolating electrical anomalies specific to our industrial grade machines. We highly recommend in the strongest terms that no one attempt anything remotely close and/or otherwise similar to the detailed actions perpetrated by the user. Doing so will automatically cancel and void any remaining warranty or technical support privileges and may subject the unwise user to an inoperable or otherwise malfunctioning machine and serious injury or death of but not limited to the user and the user's family, pets, and/or neighbors. The AC modification of the spindle motor and driver is far inferior to the BLDC used in our industrial machines anyway so such actions are effectively taking a step backwards in technology and performance. (BTW Allen contact us, we would like to know how you did that, so cool)

Just pullin' ya tit mate.:D

Crap... I guess I'll cancel my orders...

FannBlade
04-27-2012, 09:31 AM
We do not condone the action of the poster due to the highly dangerous procedures and/or but not limited to the questionable outcome of varying the operating parameters outside of design specifications given that the origin of the "problems" the user claims to be experiencing are no doubt due to the unbalanced and unclean supply power as well as improper grounding that is common among ignorant residential users lacking appropriate accreditation from an institute specializing in isolating electrical anomalies specific to our industrial grade machines. We highly recommend in the strongest terms that no one attempt anything remotely close and/or otherwise similar to the detailed actions perpetrated by the user. Doing so will automatically cancel and void any remaining warranty or technical support privileges and may subject the unwise user to an inoperable or otherwise malfunctioning machine and serious injury or death of but not limited to the user and the user's family, pets, and/or neighbors. The AC modification of the spindle motor and driver is far inferior to the BLDC used in our industrial machines anyway so such actions are effectively taking a step backwards in technology and performance. (BTW Allen contact us, we would like to know how you did that, so cool)

Just pullin' ya tit mate.:D

Perfect! (group):)

SWATH
04-27-2012, 09:36 AM
Crap... I guess I'll cancel my orders...

They didn't actually say that, it was a joke.(wedge) But I'm certain it would probably void your warranty.

Sweeney
04-27-2012, 10:50 AM
They didn't actually say that, it was a joke.(wedge) But I'm certain it would probably void your warranty.

I know that! :cheers: I was joking as well. I already have plans to use the Mikini motor as a counter weight on the Z axis instead of the gas struts...:D

My Mik-Allen parts are en-route.

howecnc
04-27-2012, 07:54 PM
Wow, tough crowd. I would still like to hear Mikni's opinions of this transformation though I guess they would have to be thick skinned and be prepared for a lynch mob.
:)

SWATH
04-28-2012, 10:06 PM
Wow, tough crowd. I would still like to hear Mikni's opinions of this transformation though I guess they would have to be thick skinned and be prepared for a lynch mob.
:)

I would like to hear as well. If they came and said "Ok we goofed, everyone having spindle problems will receive a new controller and motor that has been extensively tested to work perfectly and it has plenty of low end torque to drill and mill hard steel and you'll get it within 3 weeks" I would start a website called Mikinimechisawesomebuyonenow.com, after I confirm it works of course.

If they came and said the usual stuff they say, I would expect dissatisfied customers to continue lashing out in exasperation.

howecnc
05-05-2012, 06:36 AM
When can we see some drilling with this retro fit?

allenj20
05-07-2012, 12:27 AM
Ask and you shall receive. Been busy with work the past week so have not had much time to mill till this weekend.

Here's a couple of videos

Mikini 1610L motor and VFD replacement project video 11 - YouTube

Mikini 1610L AC Motor and VFD replacement Project Video 12 - YouTube


When can we see some drilling with this retro fit?

allenj20
05-07-2012, 12:49 AM
Cool I am going to start on your motor mount this week. I just got the stock for it in last week. For power supply I was able to keep the Mikini power supply and DC power board. If they ever act wonky though I will ditch em. I would probably go with something like this to power the stepper drivers. The VFD just takes single phase 230V AC.

CNC4PC (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=400)




I just ordered my motor, VFD and main board for my Mik-Allen project. I'll need to pick your brain, Allen, for the rest of the bits like power supply, etc.

I really appreciate the work you've put into this!

mcphill
05-07-2012, 08:52 AM
GREAT clips Allen, thanks SO much for sharing. The spindle speed looked rock solid on that steel cut. Can you fill in a few blanks with that cut? What was the width of cut? Did you base the speeds and feeds off of GWizard, and if so what "conservative-aggressive" setting? Thanks again!

I really want to do this now... Just don't see when I will find the time... Can I fly you out to do mine? :D

Sweeney
05-07-2012, 09:24 AM
Looks great, Allen. I got my motor, VFD and board in. I'm trying to get a car project out the door so I can dive whole heartedly into the mill.
I'll send you a PM with my email.

allenj20
05-07-2012, 12:08 PM
Well the first pass was full width .500 and the second was something less. The feeds and speeds for that cut came from the NFS wizard in Mach 3 I was not sure on DOC the wizard makes no recommendation for that. So I went with .020 DOC. I was looking at GWizard this morning and it says 900ish RPM at 7 IPM .230 DOC :eek:

That's the most aggressive setting. I don't know about that, that seems nutty mcnutterson.

Hehe I got that Emco project up next you want to fly out and lend a hand I will return the favor :)


GREAT clips Allen, thanks SO much for sharing. The spindle speed looked rock solid on that steel cut. Can you fill in a few blanks with that cut? What was the width of cut? Did you base the speeds and feeds off of GWizard, and if so what "conservative-aggressive" setting? Thanks again!

I really want to do this now... Just don't see when I will find the time... Can I fly you out to do mine? :D

Brian L
05-07-2012, 12:25 PM
RPM on the steel should/would conservatively be 1500 rpm, feedrate about 20 to 25ipm and depth of cut of at least .250 (half the diameter) at full width, if you do narrower width of cut, say .250 (half the cutter diameter) and climb cut, you could most likely get your depth of cut up to 1x the cutter diameter, so .500.

Also, on the drilling thru the aluminum, don't need to peck every .050, more like 1/4". Parabolic flutes on the drills do work, dunno that you or I will ever notice the difference of less than hundreds of parts though... They are considerably weaker too... so if I have ever snapped off drills in holes, it would be the parabolic ones....

allenj20
05-07-2012, 12:55 PM
Hmm interesting, Sounds like I need to do the steel cut again. I will try it again and work up to that DOC I don't want to dive straight in to .250 DOC in steel I just got the darned thing working right. But I will go back and try some more aggressive cuts in steel.


RPM on the steel should/would conservatively be 1500 rpm, feedrate about 20 to 25ipm and depth of cut of at least .250 (half the diameter) at full width, if you do narrower width of cut, say .250 (half the cutter diameter) and climb cut, you could most likely get your depth of cut up to 1x the cutter diameter, so .500.

Also, on the drilling thru the aluminum, don't need to peck every .050, more like 1/4". Parabolic flutes on the drills do work, dunno that you or I will ever notice the difference of less than hundreds of parts though... They are considerably weaker too... so if I have ever snapped off drills in holes, it would be the parabolic ones....

Brian L
05-07-2012, 01:02 PM
Well, agreed, you don't know what it will do on a regular basis yet, but I'd start at .1 deep, then increase by .1 each time and see what it acts like. Remember, climb cutting with about 1/3 to 1/2 the width of cut of the endmill diameter is going to be the sweet spot, so in a facing operation, best to start on an edge and do decreasing passes towards center in a clockwise circle around the part.

SWATH
05-07-2012, 01:07 PM
RPM on the steel should/would conservatively be 1500 rpm, feedrate about 20 to 25ipm and depth of cut of at least .250 (half the diameter) at full width, if you do narrower width of cut, say .250 (half the cutter diameter) and climb cut, you could most likely get your depth of cut up to 1x the cutter diameter, so .500.

Also, on the drilling thru the aluminum, don't need to peck every .050, more like 1/4". Parabolic flutes on the drills do work, dunno that you or I will ever notice the difference of less than hundreds of parts though... They are considerably weaker too... so if I have ever snapped off drills in holes, it would be the parabolic ones....

Good info Brian thanks. What would recommend for a .180 drill in 4140HT 1.25 deep? I was using a regular carbide drill but never really got the peck cycle that worked good, it would either take all day to drill a 1.25 deep hole because I had to peck every .025 or something or else the drill would completely wrap with stringers then jam the drill in the hole, until it eventually snapped in a hole trying a .25 peck. So I ordered a parabolic cobalt drill to try. Do you use full retract or just a breakchip peck? Same goes for my 14mm drill I have to use a tiny peck or the chip wraps up the drill and stalls the spindle.

Brian L
05-07-2012, 04:17 PM
OK, it's a pretty general statement of 4140HT, heat treated to what? Rc 28-32, 35-43, or harder? Big difference in the machinability. I would start on the .180 diameter drill with 1000 rpm, 5ipm feedrate and peck with no less than 1 diameter, so .180 for the minimum peck. Unfortunately G83 is going to give you peck length that isn't variable, I can't remember what code it was, but on the lathes, you could get a variable depth peck, say your first peck was .5, then the next might be 75% of that, then 75% of the last one and so on until it hits the .180 minimum peck amount.... kind of handy on deeper holes.

I wouldn't use carbide on that deep of a hole unless you have your machine all squared away, a dip in rpm and you are toast. Parabolic Guhring or OSG would be the way to go, and their websites will give you better, more specific numbers for feeds and speeds.

As for peck vs. woodpecker (G83 vs G73), I'd retract, gives a chance for some coolant to get into the hole. Remember, if the long stringy chips are coming up and out of the hole, and spinning around, then they are out of the hole, and that's the key issue, having a bird's nest wrapped around the drill when it's done is a mess, and in inconvenience, but it means the chips aren't packing into the holes.

Regarding the 14mm drill and chips stalling the spindle? I don't think it has to do with the chips... it has more to do with the gutless spindle.

allenj20
05-08-2012, 01:49 AM
A couple of more video updates hogging steel

Mikin 1610L AC Motor and VFD Replacement Project Video 13 - YouTube

Mikini 1610L AC Motor and VFD Replacement Project Video 14 - YouTube

Sweeney
05-08-2012, 08:43 AM
Well, we now know your spindle has the ability to rattle the rest of the machine apart ;)
Good show, Allen!
Does anybody need an unused Mikini main board and/or motor? I won't be needing mine. The Mikini motor isn't heavy enough to use as my counter weight for the Mik-Allen conversion. :)

Brian L
05-08-2012, 09:21 AM
Allen,

Very cool, and yes, you are finding the limits of the rigidity of the machine. I would throw out there that you are still spinning a bit too slow, 1/2" carbide in steel should start at about 1500 rpm, that will smooth out the vibration considerably. Also, write the programs so that you keep the width of cut around .250"... as you noticed in the second pass of the second video, the narrower pass was much quieter and more stable.

If nothing else, you have learned how to clean off the machine.... make a deep cut and everything vibrates off to the floor! :-)

Seriously, fantastic job on the motor conversion, it will not be the weak link in the machine any longer. Not only should all the guys in the group thank you, but Mikini owes you a big apology and thank you for doing all the prototype work to put a real spindle drive into this thing.

mcphill
05-08-2012, 10:00 AM
A couple of more video updates hogging steel

Mikin 1610L AC Motor and VFD Replacement Project Video 13 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MSIvguQdNk)

Mikini 1610L AC Motor and VFD Replacement Project Video 14 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbD0YOIzPaY)

Thanks once again. Case closed, Mikini's spindle has NO guts... Not sure those were the "best" way to cut steel, but you sure weren't even CLOSE to stalling out.

SWATH
05-08-2012, 11:22 AM
Wow, thanks for all your work Allen that is indeed impressive. I know for a fact that the Mikini spindle would have stalled within .5sec or almost immediately on contact with the part with that .25 DOC and probably would have stalled within a second or two with the .1 DOC. I have actually stalled a .5 rougher with almost exact parameters (.1 DOC, .5 WOC, S1800 F11) in steel, I had to adjust to .05 DOC F8. I would not even have attempted .25 DOC. I forget the details right off but I can do a .1 DOC full slot at around S2900 F19 but it is with a 3/8 variable flute endmill and it is still loud as hell, but it makes it and to my surprise has yet to chip the flutes (because it has a .03 radius). I want to do this conversion but it will have to wait for some funding. Any plans of trying to integrate LCD panel back into operation?

SWATH
05-08-2012, 11:25 AM
Well, we now know your spindle has the ability to rattle the rest of the machine apart ;)
Good show, Allen!
Does anybody need an unused Mikini main board and/or motor? I won't be needing mine. The Mikini motor isn't heavy enough to use as my counter weight for the Mik-Allen conversion. :)

I may be interested just to trouble shoot my stuff that isn't working right, PM me what you want for them.

slowtwitch
05-09-2012, 01:57 PM
I'm really impressed by the results !!! Again, thanks Allen for all the work you put into this project and more importantly, for posting the results :cheers:

I was going to start my project during the summer, but, my front display finally died this past weekend. Fortunately, the buttons are working and I can switch to computer mode. I'm finally making parts, but, I just don't trust the electronics in this machine and I don't want it failing me when I have orders to fill and with my luck..it will happen.

Soooo, I ordered a bunch of parts last night :) Same vector drive as Allen's, CNC4PC's c23 board, I'm seriously thinking about getting the Ethernet Smoothstepper. Ordered 3 digital drives from Keling.

I had a 2hp C face motor laying around and luckily, it was a 145tc frame :banana: So I saved a few dollars there.

I will experimenting with incorporating the existing MPG to work under Mach3, using CNC4PC's C22 pendant interface board....will see how that goes. I'll start a fresh thread :D

allenj20
05-09-2012, 03:44 PM
Thanks Guys, For all the kind words and support throughout the project. It was definitely easier with the group sort of egging me on.

I will now start the process of documenting as best I can here what I did so that anyone that wants to replicate it can fix their own Mikini. Today when I get home from work I will attach the CAD drawings in IGES and STEP for the motor mount. And try and document the programming of the VFD. And at some point I will do a wiring diagram and upload that as well. Oh and a complete parts list with numbers etc....

:cheers:

howecnc
05-09-2012, 05:39 PM
Allen,
I don't need a video but if you have some time can you test a 1/2" drill in aluminum?
I was also wondering if you are bypassing the manual control all together.
Your coolant pressure seems better than mine also, did you change the pump?

thanks,

Chris

jid2
05-09-2012, 10:02 PM
Great work man - I'm using the same motor in my RF45 conversion with a 2 speed micro-v belt configuration.

allenj20
05-09-2012, 10:15 PM
Allen,
I don't need a video but if you have some time can you test a 1/2" drill in aluminum?
I was also wondering if you are bypassing the manual control all together.
Your coolant pressure seems better than mine also, did you change the pump?

thanks,

Chris

I will test 1/2 inch drill in aluminum when I get a chance. I am not using the Mikini main logic board at all. I will be adding a pendant to Mach3 soon (this weekend.). And I did change the coolant pump a while back with one from Grizzly because my Mikini pump stopped working, as did the oil pump, and the spindle control board, like 4 times, but I am not bitter about it our anything :D

allenj20
05-09-2012, 10:29 PM
Cad files for the motor mount and sideplates in step, iges, and dxf

howecnc
05-20-2012, 05:03 PM
Any more progress Allen?

BobWarfield
05-21-2012, 05:02 PM
Great thread and what an improvement the new motor and VFD make.

Makes me wonder about not having a gear change though. Just 2 speeds on the pulley seems like it might have made all the difference cutting steel. Despite all the power curves and such published with the electronics, it sure seems like mills and lathes that have 2 speeds perform better. I put a power curve option into G-Wizard after hearing enough Haas small mill owners complain about stalling the spindle or breaking cutters. It helped them quite a lot.

Not really an option here given available space, just an observation.

BTW, if the spindle won't keep up, you'll definitely break cutters right and left. The chipload will be very high as the feed keeps moving but you're not pulling out the chips at full rpms.

Cheers,

BW

allenj20
05-21-2012, 11:26 PM
Any more progress Allen?

Well I can report I found a surplus aluminum place in commerce city all the aluminum you care to carry 2.50 a pound. Got some nice cast tooling plate there for 2.50 a pound :rainfro:

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0192.JPG

And I have been working on Sweeney's motor mount which is just about done just need to do the side plates.

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0200.JPG

Also someone sold me one of these for 150.00 with a 64GB Intel SSD in it. So I am testing it on the mill. And so far it works awesome. It was a little tricky getting my cut down version of Windows XP installed on it with all the right drivers but I finally did an so far it works great. It is super tiny about the size of a paperback. So it fits in the enclosure really nice.

Newegg.com - Foxconn NTA350-0H0W-B-A-NA AMD Hudson D1 1 x 204Pin AMD Radeon HD 6310 Black Mini / Booksize Barebone System (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856119050)

Brian L
05-22-2012, 08:18 AM
Sounds like you found IMS, we have one here in AZ and I get a lot of my metal from them. Great prices when you can get it by the pound on their drops and cuts, but if you get into full lengths or sheets, shop around. I find better prices at a place called Coast Aluminum when I need larger quantities.. not long ago I bought a sheet and a half of 1/4" aluminum (three pieces 4' x 4') and they were about $200 cheaper than IMS.

Sweeney
05-22-2012, 08:20 AM
That's like aluminum heaven! The mount is looking great, thanks, Allen! Once I get the project car out of my garage I'll have time and space to jump on the mill.

slowtwitch
05-22-2012, 08:24 AM
I just installed a 64g SSD in my mill computer. I had two drives fail me in the past year. I don't think the mechanical drives like the temperature changes :)

pete

mcphill
05-22-2012, 10:56 AM
I went SSD on the get go with the Mikini. Seemed like a "no brainer" to me. Even an easier choice now with how cheap they have become!

allenj20
07-01-2012, 04:07 PM
Hi folks,

Here are some photos of the progress I have been making on the new control panel for the machine.

I did this on my laser cutter and engraver which I am fortunate to have. I started with a 1/4 inch piece of opaque acrylic just because I had it laying around scrap from another project. I laser cut the shapes out. And then I gave it a good key with a green scotchbrite pad and painted it with black satin Krylon Fusion paint for plastics. Then I engraved the piece. I then filled in the engraved part with white paint and wiped away the excess with a wet towel. The paint it still a bit soft right now so I think I will let it set up a day before I start the wiring up task.


http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0215.JPG?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1341172679610

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0211.JPG?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1341172721784

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/IMG_0219.JPG?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1341172752356

Brian L
07-01-2012, 04:13 PM
Looks great! Lasers are perfect for that sort of thing, we used to use one from Universal Laser for part marking and making rubber stamps.

mcphill
07-02-2012, 09:53 AM
Have you used the machine any or do you need the control panel done to make it more livable in real world use?

If you have had a chance to do some more machining, what's your feedback? What are the risks/downsides as you see them? Anything have you worried for long-term reliability (spindle bearings?)?

allenj20
07-02-2012, 11:35 AM
I have been using the machine regularly and it is working great. I am doing the control panel so that I can call the project done done. And also I have a need for the digital probe. So I wanted to mount the jack for that.

Risks and downsides I am not sure about. My biggest fear is that the Mikini is still not a very reliable machine and so something else might break. Sounds like Slowtwitch and SWATH are now having issues with their steppers maybe? So that worries me. The one potential downside is the Z axis stepper and the additional weight. Yes I offset it in theory with the gas springs but I am not sure if it has to work more or less with the gas springs in place. Hard to say. It may fail in time. Though there has been no sign of issues so far. If it does I will replace it with a bigger beefier stepper.


Overall I am really happy with the results and feel like I can just use the machine now without worrying constantly about the spindle stalling.




Have you used the machine any or do you need the control panel done to make it more livable in real world use?

If you have had a chance to do some more machining, what's your feedback? What are the risks/downsides as you see them? Anything have you worried for long-term reliability (spindle bearings?)?

allenj20
07-02-2012, 11:39 AM
Something else I have been thinking about is that I think for the most part the MPG is really unnecessary. Seems like 99.9% of the time I just use the keyboard keys to move axis for setup. I think I would skip the MPG if I was to do it over.

allenj20
07-02-2012, 11:46 AM
Oh one more thing spindle bearing wise I am not worried at all. I replaced mine a long time ago with Class 4 Nachi Japanese bearings and Kluber ISO Flex 15 grease.

I had almost forgot about that. When I first took delivery of my Mikini the spindle squeaked like a mouse. Squeak, squeak squeak. So I had to deal with that almost right away.

Ah Mikini quality... good times, good times.

mcphill
07-02-2012, 11:56 AM
Oh one more thing spindle bearing wise I am not worried at all. I replaced mine a long time ago with Class 4 Nachi Japanese bearings and Kluber ISO Flex 15 grease.

I had almost forgot about that. When I first took delivery of my Mikini the spindle squeaked like a mouse. Squeak, squeak squeak. So I had to deal with that almost right away.

Ah Mikini quality... good times, good times.

Are those bearings a straight swap, or did it take modification?

Thanks for keeping us all in the loop!

allenj20
07-02-2012, 12:11 PM
They were a straight swap they are a standard size bearing there are four of them and they are installed in pairs. It was a bit tricky to get the bearing races out I learned a neat trick about welding a bead on the inside of the bearing race which caused it to shrink and it fell right out.

When installing them you want to be careful about contaminating the grease I cleaned everything with brake cleaner. Wore some nitrile gloves and worked on blue shop towels. Also there is a specific amount of grease you need to use. I used a syringe to measure the grease amount which I got from the Nachi spec sheet.

Here's the data on what I ordered from VXB still had it in my email archive.


Kit10873 7006CYDUP4

Nachi Angular Contact Bearing 30x55x13:Abec-7:Japan 1 $221.83

Kit10874 7007CYDUP4

Nachi Angular Contact Bearing 35x62x14:Abec-7:Japan 1 $257.24 $257.24

Shipping: UPS Ground $11.37
Sales Tax $0.00
Total $490.44

mcphill
07-02-2012, 12:52 PM
Yikes, again on the spendy side! Thanks for the info, and I hope I don't need to refer to it soon! I don't have a bearing issue now, but was curious if the "extra" load from the properly performing spindle could cause some pre-mature wear compared to the load placed by the underpowered spindle Mikini has on there... Time will tell, I guess. In the end, though I really don't use my machine enough that it will ever matter, I guess. Though I think if it would munch through parts faster/easier/more reliably I might use it more...

slowtwitch
07-02-2012, 03:20 PM
Allen, the control panel looks goooood!!!!! and thanks for the bearing info. I'm a little concerned with my spindle bearings. Lately they seem to be getting somewhat heated.

As for the mpg, I rarely use mine, since my Mikini front display doesn't work and I don't even use the manual mode anymore.

But, I did install the Xbox 360 controller. Works really well under Mach3. I'll post a video on how it works. Almost eliminates a keyboard, but not quite :)

allenj20
07-25-2012, 10:12 PM
Hi All

Here's a video of the finished new control panel.

New CNC control panel - YouTube

slowtwitch
07-26-2012, 05:52 AM
Allen, it looks great!!!! I can't wait to see how it cuts. As for the probe, I have one very similar and as you, I was kinda concerned with the Z positioning. Since all my machining is aluminum and the tip of the probe is insulated from the body. I modified the probe so the tip is always active high. I like that fact if I goof, there is some play in the tip :)

Phil should be taking lessons from these posts. I wouldn't be surprised if Mikini came out with an AC/VFD version of this mill in the future. That's if they are still in business.

mcphill
07-26-2012, 01:36 PM
A similar procedure being undertaken on a Novakon...

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/novakon_systems/158928-alternative_motor_vfd_nm-145_a.html

howecnc
10-06-2012, 07:07 PM
Allen,
How about a performance update on your conversion.

Chris

allenj20
10-11-2012, 12:56 PM
Hey Chris,

I can report it is just chugging right along. I have just been using the mill since my last video instead of working on it :cheers:. No spindle alarms or broken bits. Just making parts the way it is supposed to have been from the start.

Here is my latest project

It's a telescope pier mounting system I did on the Franken-Mikini

New telescope pier mounting setup CNC project - YouTube


http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/2012-10-07%2016.06.01.jpg

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/2012-10-07%2016.06.20.jpg

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/2012-10-07%2017.51.26.jpg

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/2012-10-07%2017.51.22.jpg

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/2012-10-07%2017.52.33.jpg

mcphill
10-11-2012, 04:41 PM
That looks great! I need to swap the drive on mine... Just too much going on lately to make any moves on it...

Sweeney
10-11-2012, 07:02 PM
Looks great Allen! I finally have time to start rebuilding mine. I ordered some parts for my counter weight system and have the other bits 'out'... so I can remember what I was thinking of doing...

Allen, what settings are you using on the VFD?

millersson
02-04-2013, 11:32 AM
Allen,

I'm glad that I found this thread. Thank you for the great work in documenting the conversion. I wasn't going to than spend another dime or minute fixing this worthless POS. I thought I did my homework before buying it. Boy was I wrong. It's the worst investment I've ever made. I've been fighting it for over 2 years. Watching your videos has given me new hope. My conversion starts today.

millersson
03-13-2013, 09:36 PM
Allen,
Once again thank you for the great documentation on this project. My motor and motor control is in place and I'm ready to purchase a BOB. I wondering if in hindsight there is something you would have done differently with the electronics. I don't have a lot of experience in this area so it's intimidating, but it doesn't look that difficult. I'm planning at this point to use the smooth stepper with the BOB that you used, but have some reservations on the limit switches. Any thoughts on this are appreciated.

allenj20
03-13-2013, 11:55 PM
I don't believe I would change a thing. The mill is finally working great. I was working last weekend on a project to convert a lathe to CNC (G0602). I was making a bearing block from 6061 T6 I needed a hole .984 diameter. GWizard was suggesting I could do this at 81 IPM. Now I had gotten in to the habit of cutting Gwizards recommendation in half or even using a third with the old spindle. And even after the new spindle I was too shell shocked to run full recommended feeds and speeds based on previous stalls and broken bits. This time I said what the hey let's see what happens.Cut it like butter, zero drama, just there's your hole and fast. And the Diameter is .984 could not be happier.

millersson
03-14-2013, 12:23 AM
This sounds too good to be true. I'm really looking forward to actually cutting something instead of just wearing out and chipping tools. I'm on to the next step. Thanks again.

SWATH
03-18-2013, 03:03 PM
I don't believe I would change a thing. The mill is finally working great. I was working last weekend on a project to convert a lathe to CNC (G0602). I was making a bearing block from 6061 T6 I needed a hole .984 diameter. GWizard was suggesting I could do this at 81 IPM. Now I had gotten in to the habit of cutting Gwizards recommendation in half or even using a third with the old spindle. And even after the new spindle I was too shell shocked to run full recommended feeds and speeds based on previous stalls and broken bits. This time I said what the hey let's see what happens.Cut it like butter, zero drama, just there's your hole and fast. And the Diameter is .984 could not be happier.

That is fantastic news! One day I will do this conversion if I don't get rid of the machine first or die. That's the way it should have been cutting from the start. I see Mikini has not been by in a long time to talk about the issue. Really Mikini!?! Is it that ****ing hard to get the goddamn spindle to work on your stupid machine. I mean the rest of the machine is *decent* so why **** up one of the most important and integrated parts to make it almost literally unusable. Worst investment of my life too. Maybe one day I can take the time and money to fix it and actually use it again.

millersson
05-29-2013, 02:09 AM
Allen,
I'm making progress on my conversion and would like to pick your brain if I may. Can you tell me how you set the switches on the Kelling drives for the Mikini motors?

allenj20
06-05-2013, 12:22 AM
Picture being worth a thousand words and all that here you go sorry for the delayed reply

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/driverswitches.JPG

allenj20
06-05-2013, 12:29 AM
After seeing a control panel a friend of mine did for his homebuilt computer I decided I needed to copy his style a bit. This is clear acrylic painted and then lasered through and then letters painted in from the back. Makes for a shiny control panel.

http://www.hacksbot.com/storage/controlpanel.JPG

millersson
06-05-2013, 01:21 AM
Allen,

Thank you for both pictures. I've been thinking about how to fashion my control panel as well. This looks very nice!

SWATH
06-13-2013, 11:48 PM
I collecting my thoughts on the spindle replacement if Mechie's new driver doesn't help the current spindle's performance. I looked everywhere and couldn't find a 3hp AC motor that would fit on top so 2hp it must be it seems. Although after downloading the cad file of the Black Max 3hp I think it can be made to work but just barely. I don't know where Pete got that slim 4hp motor but that would be ideal in a 3hp size. Anyway, my question is; Is it necessary to upsize the VFD to larger than the motor when using single phase input? In other words, what size VFD is best for a 2hp motor? The price difference between a 2hp 3hp and 5hp VFD is pretty negligible. I was looking at the GS3 series on automationdirect.com since you can add a breaking resistor and feedback card if desired. I'm kind of digging the Y551-A772 Black Max motor there as well for a 2hp, it would fit a little better than the 3hp Y541-A772 but I think the 3hp might fit. I'm not ready to do the upgrade yet just getting my thoughts in order so I know what to look for.

millersson
06-14-2013, 01:43 AM
SWATH,
I've been following Allen's lead on the motor and VFD for my conversion. My 2HP on Bridgeport copy has no problem with heavy cuts. From Allen's comments above I'll be very happy with a true 2HP. The motor mounting is tight with the 2HP. I didn't want to deal with changing the lubrication system. The spindle cover is not a big deal. Just be aware that the top cover mounting holes are not square to the head casting before trimming. There are only a couple belts to choose from for the 2HP motor mounting flange. Be aware that you'll likely find that the original gas springs are shot. The manufacturer recommends running them with the rods down so that the seal stays in oil. I've run the motor and it sounds so sweet. I can hardly wait to turn a cutter and make chips again. I chose the C32 with the RJ45 instead of the C23 BOB. I'm hoping it will be easier and neater than all the individual wires. I'm in the process of installing it now along with the new axis drives. CNC4PC also has limit switches that plug into the RJ45 port on the C32.

allenj20
06-14-2013, 11:26 AM
I am using a 2hp single phase vfd with a 2hp motor no derating required. I believe you only need to derate if you are trying to use a 3 phase VFD with single phase input. Not necessary if you are using a single phase VFD. And also I think you will be surprised what 2 HP really looks like after your experience with the Mikini 3HP.

SWATH
06-14-2013, 12:12 PM
Thanks Allen, I'm just so sick of stalling and being afraid of stalling that I'm gunshy about not having enough torque for cutting hard steel.

SWATH
06-16-2013, 11:40 PM
So I bit the bullet and bought this Marathon inverter duty 2hp AC motor off ebay:
y551-A772 (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motors/AC_Motors_-_General_Purpose_and_Inverter_Duty_%280.25_-_300HP%29/AC_Motors_-_Inverter_Duty,_Marathon_%280.25_-_100HP%29/Marathon_Black_Max_w-z-_Encoder_%280.25HP_to_30HP%29/Y551-A772)

Now I need to decide on a VFD. I was thinking about this one from the same site because I think I understand what is needed better.
Durapulse G3 VFD (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/DURApulse_-_GS3_%28230_-z-_460_VAC_Sensorless_Vector_Control%29/DURApulse_-_GS3_Drive_Units_%28230_-z-_460_VAC_SLV%29/GS3-22P0)

Here are the things I think I would need to add:

GS3-FB feedback card (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS_Configuration_-a-_Communications_-a-_Software/GS3-FB)

a 10 pin cable for the encoder (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Cables/Encoders/TRDA-25CBL-VWD-10)

braking resistor (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motor_Controls/Drives/DURApulse_-_GS3_%28230_-z-_460_VAC_Sensorless_Vector_Control%29/DURApulse_-_GS3_Braking_Options_%28Braking_Units_-a-_Resistors%29/GS-22P0-BR)

Does that sound about right? I'm assuming the motor doesn't come with power wires, what kind of wire do I need for that?

I'm also contemplating the Hitachi WJ200 (http://www.driveswarehouse.com/p-2526-wj200-015sf.aspx). I don't know if it's better or does all the same stuff but it seems to be pretty popular and about the same price. I'm not sure it accepts external feedback though.

From the max motor speed it looks like I'll need a 1.5 pully to get the 1:1.5 ratio required for getting the speed up there to where it was. Where can I find those that use the same belt as the existing one.

Thoughts anyone?

slowtwitch
06-17-2013, 05:50 AM
Swath, I bought my pulley from these guys... it's 25mm wide, compared to Mikini's 20mm but i haven't seen any problems on my machine..

To Suit 25mm Wide Belt : Beltingonline.com, Supplier of power transmission and conveying products (http://www.beltingonline.com/timing-pulleys-bars-272/htd5-pulleys-285/to-suit-25mm-wide-belt-483/)

You would have to figure out the belt length for the timing belt ....

SDP/SI (http://www.sdp-si.com/cd/default.htm)

SWATH
06-18-2013, 08:30 AM
Thank's Pete, I'll look into it closer when the motor gets here since it may have a non-standard shaft size.

It looks like the Durapulse is the way to go. I called drivesdirect.com and they said the WJ200 does not accept encoder feedback and I would need the SJ700 (about 2.5x as much money) and the encoder feedback card (about $400-$500) and it does not come in single phase input anyway. The durapulse seems to have it all and is much cheaper overall, plus the breaking resistors are much cheaper than the Hitachi. Looks like total for the Durapulse G3 drive, feedback card, braking resistor, and encoder cable will be just under $500.

SWATH
06-19-2013, 11:23 PM
188840
188842

This thing is a monster! The Mikini spindle motor feels like a little toy compared to this thing. I went to Lowes to look at wire I could to run to the motor. I was thinking stranded 10/3 or 12/3 10 AWG and running the 4th wire to ground the motor. I wondered if this wire should be shielded with foil or braid. Anyone know and if so where to find it?

RFB
06-19-2013, 11:59 PM
So I bit the bullet and bought this Marathon inverter duty 2hp AC motor off ebay:
y551-A772 (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motors/AC_Motors_-_General_Purpose_and_Inverter_Duty_%280.25_-_300HP%29/AC_Motors_-_Inverter_Duty,_Marathon_%280.25_-_100HP%29/Marathon_Black_Max_w-z-_Encoder_%280.25HP_to_30HP%29/Y551-A772)

Now I need to decide on a VFD. I was thinking about this one from the same site because I think I understand what is needed better.
Durapulse G3 VFD (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/DURApulse_-_GS3_%28230_-z-_460_VAC_Sensorless_Vector_Control%29/DURApulse_-_GS3_Drive_Units_%28230_-z-_460_VAC_SLV%29/GS3-22P0)

Here are the things I think I would need to add:

GS3-FB feedback card (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Drives/GS_Configuration_-a-_Communications_-a-_Software/GS3-FB)

a 10 pin cable for the encoder (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Cables/Encoders/TRDA-25CBL-VWD-10)

braking resistor (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motor_Controls/Drives/DURApulse_-_GS3_%28230_-z-_460_VAC_Sensorless_Vector_Control%29/DURApulse_-_GS3_Braking_Options_%28Braking_Units_-a-_Resistors%29/GS-22P0-BR)

Does that sound about right? I'm assuming the motor doesn't come with power wires, what kind of wire do I need for that?

I'm also contemplating the Hitachi WJ200 (http://www.driveswarehouse.com/p-2526-wj200-015sf.aspx). I don't know if it's better or does all the same stuff but it seems to be pretty popular and about the same price. I'm not sure it accepts external feedback though.

From the max motor speed it looks like I'll need a 1.5 pully to get the 1:1.5 ratio required for getting the speed up there to where it was. Where can I find those that use the same belt as the existing one.

Thoughts anyone?

SWATH,

I can only assume that you plan to use the motor on a Bridgeport size machine or smaller milling machine. If that is correct then you can run the motor 1:1 with the spindle. If you run the motor with a gear ratio between it and the spindle then the encoder is basically worthless. A variable frequency drive is specifically designed for the purpose of controlling AC motor speed. A VFD enables you to alter the frequency of the current but, the current itself is full power. Therefore at 5Hz the motor will produce full torque while rotating at a reduce speed. I have a new Delta brand VFD model VFD-B and the encoder feedback board for it. If you are interested then send me a PM.

Most VFDs rated at 3 HP and under do not require a braking resistor. They use DC injection for braking and they are very effective.

RFB

Al_The_Man
06-20-2013, 09:22 AM
I went to Lowes to look at wire I could to run to the motor. I was thinking stranded 10/3 or 12/3 10 AWG and running the 4th wire to ground the motor. I wondered if this wire should be shielded with foil or braid. Anyone know and if so where to find it?

An alternative is Liquid-seal flex conduit with MTW/TEW single conductor stranded or equiv, tightly twist the 3 motor conductors and run a ground alongside.
14G would be OK for a 2hp motor. Not only shields the cable but offers protection out on the machine.
Al.

SWATH
06-20-2013, 10:55 AM
Thanks Al, I looked at that while I was there. What about noise shielding? Could a metallic shielding help contain or reduce emitted noise from the wires? I ask because of the encoder cables. I won't run them along side the power cables if I can help it but at some point they will be near each other.

About the pulley ratio, I'm still confused about why the encoder would not work with anything but a 1:1 ratio. The encoder sends signal to the VFD to monitor RPM and the VFD adjusts as needed. I don't see how a 1.5:1 ratio would negate this interaction as I'm not directly taking RPM measurements from the VFD and Mach3 has a pulley ratio selection.

Al_The_Man
06-20-2013, 10:59 AM
Liquid-seal METALLIC type offers shielding, the outer sheath is (or should be) at ground.
Is the motor 2 pole or 4?
OK I see it is 4 pole, the specs for the shaft size encoder etc is on the Automation Direct site.
Al.

SWATH
06-20-2013, 11:08 AM
4 pole.

Ok I see it at home depot's website. Looks like PVC conduit but has a steel shielding inside.
AFC Cable Systems 1/2 in. x 25 ft. Liquidtight Flexible Steel Conduit-6202-22-00 at The Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/p/AFC-Cable-Systems-1-2-in-x-25-ft-Liquidtight-Flexible-Steel-Conduit-6202-22-00/202286744)

Al_The_Man
06-20-2013, 11:12 AM
4 pole.

Ok I see it at home depot's website. Looks like PVC conduit but has a steel shielding inside.

Yes, make sure you get the 1/2" conduit fittings to match.
Al.

SWATH
07-01-2013, 08:40 PM
Ordered the vfd and misc things. It almost seems like I'm jumping in without knowing full well what I'm doing but I have to make it happen sooner than later. I'll start my own thread when it's time.

Just fyi, I measured the weight of each has strut and they are right at 40lbs for a total of 80lbs of assistance. The BLDC motor is 22lbs and the AC inverter duty motor is right at 70lbs. I'll try to keep the same struts but I might need to boost them up to 65lb each to compensate.

So far I have no idea how to program the vfd or even how it communicates with the pc or mach but I figure those are just details right now. I might try to get it to work with the mikini front panel as I haven't had problems with that that I know of. I would also like to add a load meter and rpm input to mach possibly by splicing in some data from the encoder but I'll have to figure that stuff out when I get there.


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SWATH
07-04-2013, 11:14 PM
Has anybody had trouble with their vfd on gfci breaker? Mine trips when I press run.

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SWATH
07-08-2013, 04:41 PM
Anyone know the pin outs to the spindle driver off the Mikini front panel? I would like to use them for the VFD if possible. The VFD is running awesome by the way. As soon as I get organized I'll start a detailed thread about it. Also is it possible to tweak the existing load meter to use with the AC/VFD retrofit?

mcphill
07-09-2013, 03:18 AM
I am curious as well. There are very few connections to the spindle driver board on the machine, and I am wondering how both Mach and the front screen are supported... I want to replace the driver but keep the motor and the front panel functions if I can - that's the goal. I will go without the front panel if it comes to it, though!

slowtwitch
07-09-2013, 05:42 AM
I think I have most of the pins figured out. The only hitch , if running a vfd, is that you will not have 0-10v analog signal to adjust the speed. I'm pretty sure the mikini board used a PWM signal to control the spindle speed.

You may be able to use something like this to convert the PWM signals to analog....CNC4PC (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=303)

I'll look over my notes tonight when I get home tonight.

As a side note, I couldn't be happier with the way my mill is running. I did change out the Huanyang vfd for another Hitachi vector drive and I'm changing some things on the front panel. I'm going to post a video of the final product on my modification thread.

SWATH
07-09-2013, 07:30 AM
Everything is working now with my vfd/motor/encoder but I still have a nagging problem. The motor makes a clunking/knocking sound when turning under power and vibrates pretty bad. It goes away as soon as power is removed even if the rotor is still spinning. It also spins freely and smoothly by hand. This issue wasn't always there, it has been perfectly smooth before and the noise would come and go but now I can't get rid of it and it vibrates pretty bad when powered like the rotor is out of balance and rubbing on the stator twice per revolution but it's not. I inspected the rotor for rub marks but there are none and after the power to motor is cut it coasts smooth as silk. What is going on here? This is some kind of electrical disturbance or imbalance I think. Is there a way to tune it?

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slowtwitch
07-09-2013, 08:52 AM
What mode is the vfd in ????? Try running the motor under regular VFD mode...no encoder and such. If it runs ok, then you may have to adjust your parameters. Did you try auto tuning the motor????

SWATH
07-09-2013, 12:30 PM
I tried it in all modes including v/hz. I also did the auto tune for sensorless vector mode. Last night I noticed it would go away for the most part when I simultaneously touched the motor and encoder housing. Then I just touched the two together with a wire and it also went away but now that doesn't work. Then I completely removed the encoder but that didn't help either. One theory I had was that the power wires aren't cut to length or inside conduit yet, they are just 25ft of 3 single conductors of wire spagetti.

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mcphill
07-10-2013, 04:04 AM
Check all your grounding. Adding additional grounds like the wire won't hurt anything, but a break or weak ground somewhere could cause oddball things to happen.

slowtwitch
07-10-2013, 08:05 PM
Anyone know the pin outs to the spindle driver off the Mikini front panel?

Here's what I have scribbled down. Mind you it's not much, as I have gone to the dark side :) Here are the voltages on the pins in the spindle off position. I used the dc ground on the panel board as my common.

pin#
1 =0 v
2 = 4.7v
3 = 0 v
4 = 0 v
5 = 4.7
6 = 4.7
7 = 4.7
8 = 4.7
9 = 0

The only changes I saw when the spindle was in fwd at 750 rpm was...

pin 2 went to 0 volts ( start and stop??) and and pin 8 also went to 0 volts. Pin 7 dropped to 4.35 volts

Increasing the speed to 1500 rpm...same as above, but, pin 7 dropped to 3.62 volts.

Increasing the speed to 5000 rpm...same as above, but, pin 7 dropped to .26 volts. Btw, all the voltages were dc.

Increasing the voltage to 6000 rpm...same as above, but, pin 7 dropped to .06 volts.

Putting the spindle in reverse at 1500 rpm...

pin 3(forward and reverse ??) went to 4.7 volts, as did pin 8. pin 7 went to 4.50 volts.


The odd thing that I saw was pin 7 going from high to low in voltage as speed increased. Could it be that I was reading an RMS value of the PWM signal with my dc volt meter...I don't know as this is all new to me.

With Pin 8, if I remembered right, I was getting intermittent readings. I don't know if I was just making bad contact with the probes or it was something else.

Almost forgot, the pins are numbered in a standard db 9 pin-out..
That's all I have.

SWATH
07-11-2013, 08:01 PM
Thanks Pete it does seem like a lot of those pins are going to need to be read with an oscilloscope. I'm not sure how those outputs could be translated to the VFD.

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MichaelHenry
07-12-2013, 07:19 PM
Has anybody had trouble with their vfd on gfci breaker? Mine trips when I press run.

You probably already have an answer but so far as I know VFDs do not like GFCIs in their power runs. Something about noise or feedback falsely tripping the GFCI.

Mike

SWATH
07-13-2013, 06:36 AM
Thanks I figured that so I took off the gfci and put on a regular breaker.

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SWATH
07-15-2013, 01:03 AM
I figured some things out about the noise problem. I read 12vac and 2a from the encoder body to the grounded motor frame when the motor is running and it chugs and clunks along. If I ground the encoder body to the motor frame with a wire, the voltage drops to .5, the amps to near nothing and the noise stops. When I do this the motor runs so smooth. But doing this is an issue I think, keep in mind the encoder is purposefully isolated from the motor so as not to have stray current flowing between the rotor shaft and frame and through the encoder bearings. When I ground out the encoder body I assume there is current flowing and damaging the bearings of the encoder (this is why they isolated it). I will revisit this issue in the near future once I have the wire cut to the proper length and in the shielded conduit as that could alleviate the problems.

I have read all sorts of conflicting info about motor grounding and common mode emi and reflected wave interference. Do I ground the cable shielding (conduit) to both the motor frame and the VFD or only to the VFD? Can I ground the encoder body without hurting the bearings?

I have the motor ramp from 0 to 5000rpm is 2 sec., I tried it at .1 sec and it bucked the 70lb motor off the ground a little, that was too fast. I tried the decel without the braking resistor and it took 5 sec. to stop from 5000rpm with the integrated dynamic braking circuit, with the breaking resistor added I could get it to stop it 0.1sec but again it bucked the motor too hard so I lengthened it to 0.5 sec then again to 1 sec after sometimes getting an over voltage error (which I can't figure out why I'm getting since the resistor should be eating all that extra energy up).


Next I need to order some aluminum plate to make a motor mount and an HTD5 36 tooth pulley. I've sort of decided to to do a 1:1 ratio and run the max speed of the motor to 5000rpm. The nameplate says 3600 and the website says max safe rpm is 5400 but I've been told 5000rpm shouldn't be a problem. I can get it down to 0 rpm, I mean at 1 rpm it turns very slowly and I can't stall it by hand but if I run at 0hz, it produces enough holding torque to lock the rotor and prevent it from turning at all. So far I'm really impressed with this motor/vfd set up, I just have to iron out the noise/grounding issues and the mach/mikini interface.

I guess first I need to figure out how to interface it with the mach and the mikini components so I can fully control it before going through all the trouble of mounting it then trying to figure it out. Anyway here are a few pics of it just sitting where it's going to go. I'm thinking of mounting it with the feet facing out so I can use them to maybe eventually mount some kind of power draw bar to.

192112192114192116

mcphill
07-15-2013, 09:56 AM
I would consider making a gear ration of around 1.5:1 to get to about 7500 rpm on the spindle. This is not too much of an "over drive" and could be very useful if you ever plan to do very shallow cuts with small tools, as you would want to for some elaborate 3D surfaces. I am considering making a mount for a Bosch Colt to mount on our spindle head so I can do some 20-30k rpm work like this, but there are certainly cases where just a few k rpm can come in real handy. If you have a bunch of torque available to you at 0 hz, you can afford to "lose" a bit by gearing to 1.5:1, right?

Al_The_Man
07-15-2013, 10:16 AM
I figured some things out about the noise problem. I read 12vac and 2a from the encoder body to the grounded motor frame when the motor is running and it chugs and clunks along. flowing between the rotor shaft and frame and through the encoder bearings.
I have read all sorts of conflicting info about motor grounding and common mode emi and reflected wave interference. Do I ground the cable shielding (conduit) to both the motor frame and the VFD or only to the VFD? Can I ground the encoder body without hurting the bearings?


Any liquid seal conduit is normally galvanically connected to both motor frame and earth ground together with VFD ground,
http://www.automation.siemens.com/doconweb/pdf/840C_1101_E/emv_r.pdf?p=1
If the encoder has a metallic case it should normally be at ground for added shielding.
Al.

SWATH
07-15-2013, 03:52 PM
I think I'm going to try and control the vfd via modbus if possible, if anyone has any experience with that I'm all ears. Also I came across this little card from CNC4PC. I don't know if it will work but it appears that it accepts a PWM signal (like I assume is coming off the Mikini front panel) and then converts it to a 0-10v signal for the VFD. It also has an RJ45 connector so maybe a cat 5 cable can be splayed out and interface to the RJ12 on the VFD.

It is similar to the C6 board Pete suggested

C41
CNC4PC (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=303)

I don't know if it is even in the realm of working but I'm just thinking out loud.

Al_The_Man
07-15-2013, 04:48 PM
Modbus is the way to go, if you can get or devise a plug in.
There are two for the oddball Huanyang.
You need to convert either RS232 or USB to RS485 for communication, if you have the choice, I would go with the RS232/RS485.
Al.

SWATH
07-16-2013, 12:46 PM
So I seem to be getting more and more confused as to how I'm going to interface the vfd with the Mikini or just mach.

The facts:

1. The VFD has an rj12 jack and is fully modbus RS485 compliant. It also has a bunch of digital and analog input and output terminals.
2. The Mikini breakout board has a db10 (I think, 9 or 10) socket in the front panel going out to the BLDC spindle board and Pete has documented the voltages of these in various run states. Some of these 9 or 10 pins must be inputs to read spindle RPM, stalls, and the instant and average load meters. The VFD monitors all of these things including amps. The encoder has a Z channel output that is not being used by the VFD that reads once per rev 5v (I thought I would tie this into the RPM reading in Mach).
3. There is also a smoothstepper in between the control pc and the Mikini front panel. Currently all spindle commands go through the smoothstepper.

So the question is: They're all at the party, how do I get them talking? (short of pouring booze in all of them)

The way I see it, the best way would be to decipher the inputs and outputs coming off of the Mikini front panel going to the spindle driver (PWM I guess) and assuming they are readable or convertable, connect them to the rj12 jack on the VFD (or I suppose the input terminals instead).

Failing that, do you connect the VFD to the smoothstepper or directly to the PC in the event that the Mikini BOB must be bypassed?

I'm pretty lost as to how these devices connect and interface.



That's a good Idea Mike about the 7500rpm ratio, I may get two different ratio pulleys and try that.

mcphill
07-16-2013, 04:27 PM
Getting all those items to talk together is going to take a translator. I have no idea if there is an off-the-shelf piece of hardware to do that or not. I personally would do it with a PIC processor. You can convert PWM to voltage and vice versa all day long. All you need to know is what from and what to. Of course, you also need to know how to program a PIC... That gives me an idea for a new product! (but do NOT count in it being out in the next few years! ; ) ...

Al_The_Man
07-16-2013, 04:37 PM
AFAIK most BOB's have PWM to analogue capability already?
Al.

SWATH
07-17-2013, 01:09 PM
According to Pete's measurements the outputs on the Mikini front panel to the spindle board are:


_______________Pin 2____________Pin 3____________pin 8

Stop___________5v_______________0v______________5v

Forward Run_____0v_______________0v______________0v

Reverse Run_____0v_______________5v______________5v

Pin 7 is probably PWM control of RPM since I think it makes sense that the voltage would appear to decrease as the pulse width decreases.

I don't know what pin 5 and 6 are doing (one could be powering the Hall sensor on the motor I guess)

Pins 1, 4, and 9 are likely inputs for motor load, rpm, and a ground.

Does this make sense to anyone? Has anyone ever asked Phil what these pins are? I doubt he would say anyway.

slowtwitch
07-17-2013, 02:40 PM
Swath, Almost positive, I have a C41 speed control board in the shop that I can send to you, to play with :) ....

slowtwitch
07-17-2013, 02:49 PM
Looking at the manual for the C41...all you need to hookup is pin 3 for reverse and pin 7 , if it is the pwm signal ...plus the 5 volts to supply it

SWATH
07-17-2013, 02:53 PM
That would be great Pete! I think that would at least get me an analog speed signal that I know the VFD can make sense of.

Al_The_Man
07-17-2013, 03:03 PM
For the C41 the analogue signal can be supplied from the VFD +10v and ACM (common) terminals and the AI1 is the analog input.
Al.

slowtwitch
07-17-2013, 03:07 PM
That would be great Pete! I think that would at least get me an analog speed signal that I know the VFD can make sense of.

I'll have it in the mail tomorrow

SWATH
07-17-2013, 03:44 PM
Thanks Al, you're the man. On the same page in the GS3 manual it says:

"The shield wire should only be connected at the AC drive. Do not connect shield wire on both ends."

Don''t know if they are specifically talking about the power wires but I've read that you don't want current going over the shielding (which would defeat the purpose of the shield I guess).

Al_The_Man
07-17-2013, 05:14 PM
The VFD ground and motor frame should be bonded to the system earth ground.
The practice in the past was to ground one end of the shield, the object being was to avoid ground loops etc, now there is a tendency to ground both ends as long as the metallic parts of the machine are bonded to earth ground, called equi-potential bonding.
http://www.automation.siemens.com/doconweb/pdf/840C_1101_E/emv_r.pdf?p=1
Ch-6.
Al.

SWATH
07-18-2013, 08:33 AM
Thanks Al. I think I'll go with the recommendations of you and others like Belden in their AC drive termination guide:
http://www.newark.com/pdfs/techarticles/belden/VariableFrequencyDriveCableTerminationGuide.pdf

Which states on page 10 the following:
192524

SWATH
07-18-2013, 08:51 AM
Here are some interesting pics I took last night.

BLDC driver db9 socket:
192526
192528

So it appears the pinout is as follows:

1= DGND
2= ENABLE
3= F/R
4=
5=FAULT
6=FOUT
7=maic
8=DVCC
9=S1

Apparently the load feedback going to the amp meter is directly off the spindle board and not going through this db9 connection. I don't know what FOUT, maic, or S1 mean but I think DVCC is differential voltage current conveyor. Any idea what all these do?

I also took these pics of the back side of the front panel:
192530

That is the db9 socket going to the spindle driver. "So what..." you say. Well upon closer inspection I noticed THIS:

192532

It appears to be RS232 connection pins (GRD, TXD, and RXD I'm assuming). Which means I might be able to interface this with an RS485 converter like this one, FA-ISOCON (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Communications/Serial/Serial_Isolators_-a-_Converters/FA-ISOCON), and control the VFD directly with Modbus from the Mikini board!

Am I insane or might this work?

Al_The_Man
07-18-2013, 09:25 AM
If the controller side has Modbus capability driver/SW etc then this is the ideal way.
I used these for RS232 to RS485 modbus it works fine, ebay 251241263122 $5.00.
Al.

SWATH
07-18-2013, 10:11 AM
PC and VFD can do modbus. I assume that all that is needed right, unless you mean the actual Mikini breakout board.

Al_The_Man
07-18-2013, 10:38 AM
If the Mikini has standard Modbus capability then it should be possible, the parameters and data addressed has to be compatible with your VFD Modbus parameters, alternatively the Mikini would have to have the ability to set the addressed parameters.
I imagine you should be able to get all the info from Mikini themselves?
Al.

slowtwitch
07-18-2013, 10:51 AM
If the Mikini has standard Modbus capability then it should be possible, the parameters and data addressed has to be compatible with your VFD Modbus parameters, alternatively the Mikini would have to have the ability to set the addressed parameters.
I imagine you should be able to get all the info from Mikini themselves?
Al.

Good luck with Mikini giving that info out :)

SWATH
07-18-2013, 11:01 AM
Good luck with Mikini giving that info out :)

That's what I was thinking.

mcphill
07-18-2013, 01:45 PM
I imagine you should be able to get all the info from Mikini themselves?


HA, Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!!!!

NEVER!

SWATH
07-23-2013, 08:59 AM
I got the C41 board last night and played around with it a little (thanks again Pete). I spliced 12v power off the Mikini board to power the C41 and ran pins 3(F/R) and 7(rpm) to the F/R input and PWM input respectively. So far not much is happening with the output voltage, it seems to remain at a constant 1.3v no matter what I do with the speed setting or the start and stop button on the front panel.

I'll have to play around with it more, but one question I have is should I power it from the Mikini board 12v output or should I power it from the 10v power source off of the VFD? Is it possible the output signal off of pin 7 is not PWM?

allenj20
07-23-2013, 06:58 PM
Normal way to connect the VFD to Mach would be two relays, so like the C-15 dual relay board. One goes to one intelligent terminal and gets assigned forward start stop in the VFD and the second goes to another intelligent terminal on the VFD and gets assigned reverse start stop. The Voltage in for both relays comes from P24 on the VFD (assuming Hitachi) which is 24 volts for logic signals. The VFD jumper goes between PLC and L (for source logic). You need two output pins from Mach and either 5 volts or 7-24 volts to power the C-15.

For the speed it's H, O, and L terminals on the VFD H provides your 10v reference to the C41 and O gets the 0-10v signal from the C41 and L is common.

You may know all this already and just be trying to use the front panel from the Mikini.

Good luck

SWATH
07-24-2013, 10:27 AM
Thanks Allen,
The C41 has 2 integrated relays to control start/stop and F/R. Are you saying the 10v output on the VFD is what powers the C41 so it has a direct voltage reference? The C41 may be unworkable unless I can verify that Pin 7 is outputting PWM but what I think may be happening is that Mach puts out a PWM signal to the Mikini board and the Mikini board converts it to a voltage signal, just a non standard one. I wish I had some documentation on the BLDC driver to find out what its input is.

Here what I measured last night using the manual mode to adjust the speed.
193286

A linear decline starting from 4.6v at min speed (200) down to 0.31v at max speed (5000). Reverse gave exactly the same readings. I'm thinking if the signal is not PWM, then maybe a simple logic circuit can be made (I have no idea how to do that) if not purchased to convert 4.6-0.31v to 0-10v, where 5v=0v and 0.31=10v.

allenj20
07-24-2013, 01:22 PM
Actually this pdf has the right diagram assuming Hitachi drive http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/2-C41R2%20and%20L100-002%20MFU.pdf

Are using a Hitachi VFD?

SWATH
07-24-2013, 01:49 PM
No I'm using the Durapulse G3:
193296193298

But my c41 appears different than the one in the diagram. It is the one in the picture and here's how I have in wired to the Mikini:
193302

The 12VDC is from the Mikini board that is supplying the PC power and pin 3 and pin 7 are from the Mikini front panel. I am simply measuring the output voltage at the bottom right with my multimeter.

SWATH
07-24-2013, 11:25 PM
I measured the voltage coming off of pin 17 of the smooth stepper with different commanded rpms in mach. Interestingly they had the same pattern as I measured coming off the mikini front panel. The voltage is around 5v with the lowest rpm and drops to around 0.3v at 5000. The only real difference is that instead of being a steady voltage there was always some regular minor fluctuation in the voltage. This I'm guessing is from the pwm. I'm curious, is this the normal way mach puts out spindle speed signals, 5v for min rpm and 0v for max, or is this simply what one would expect to observe when measuring a pwm signal with a multimeter? Anyway, I put pin 17 of the smoothstepper into the pwm input of the c41 board and still got the same constant output of about 1.3v so bypassing the mikini board isn't working either. Since I'm almost positive that the signal output from mach is pwm, this makes me wonder if the signals coming directly from mach and directly off the mikini board are the same and in fact both pwm.

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slowtwitch
07-25-2013, 06:02 AM
Swath, have you calibrated the c41 by turning the trim pot????

SWATH
07-25-2013, 09:28 AM
Yes I can get it up to a constant 1.9v

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slowtwitch
07-25-2013, 11:18 AM
What are the pulse settings under Mach3-motor tuning- spindle???? You may have to increase it to the 4 or 5 range....

SWATH
07-25-2013, 01:16 PM
Pretty sure I set both of those to 5.

SWATH
07-26-2013, 12:47 AM
Did some more testing. I've convinced myself that the signals coming off of the mikini board as well as those coming of the smooth stepper are in fact pwm. The frequency of pin 17 off the smooth stepper was 8hz, exactly what it was programmed for in the smooth stepper plug in. When I changed that to 10hz in the plug in, I also measured 10hz with my multimeter. The AC line measures 60hz and each DC source measures 0hz as one would expect, all except pin 17 of the smooth stepper (spindle speed) and pin 7 of the mikini front panel (spindle speed). In manual mode pin 7 always reads 9.98hz, so I changed the pwm frequency in the smooth stepper plug in to also be 10hz.

So since I'm reasonably certain these are pwm signals that means that the fact that the voltage declines as the rpm is commanded up is irrelevant.

The question is why isn't the c41board converting any of these signals into a voltage? There is a constant output voltage regardless if there is any pwm signal or not. With the pot I can adjust it from around 0.3v up to 1.47v no more. The pot only does a half turn. I don't have the relays powered or hooked up yet but I don't see why that would matter.

I have the c41 powered with +12v and -12v for ground. Should I change the -12v to earth ground?

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SWATH
07-26-2013, 07:51 PM
One more thing to add. I know why the voltage drops as you increase the commanded rpm. The pwm signal is active low from both mach and the manual mikini board. The mach signal can be changed easily and changing it to active high inverts the voltage by I assume inverting the pwm duty cycle so that 200rpm is 0.3v and 5000rpm is 4.6v. Unfortunately this still doesn't change the output voltage on the c41. So I sent a message to Art at cnc4pc.

The mikini board is still active low so when I program 5000rpm in mach, 200rpm or so shows up on the front panel. Manually commanding spindle speed from the front panel is still outputting in active low.

I sent an email to Art Duncan to see if there is a way to make the c41 read active low instead of active high.

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SWATH
08-07-2013, 03:20 PM
Just another quick update. I have the c41 card working but the problem is still the inverted PWM signal. So I ran the pwm signal through an inverter chip (74LS04) and it inverts the PWM so now everything is going in the right direction. The problem now is that the C41 can only get up to a max of 6v with the re-inverted pwm signal. The voltage coming from the Mikini's inverted PWM signal is 4.6v at max duty cycle but when I re-invert it through the chip it is 4.3v, then when I hook it up to the c41 PWM terminal it drops again to 3.1v. I think the problem is that the 74LS04 IC is low power (L=low power) and is limiting the current enough to drop the output voltage so I ordered a 74S04 IC instead (S=schottky diode) and will try that. If that doesn't do it then I'll play with ways to increase the voltage independent of the chip.

SWATH
08-08-2013, 12:08 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy0ZiUSQ298&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I should probably add that the dir signal must also be inverted as well as the enable signal. I'm going to use the enable signal because that is how the e-stop stops the spindle. I am going to invert it to active high and either run it and the pwm through an and gate logic chip or a 5v relay, I haven't decided yet. Shutting of the pwm is how the c41 stops the spindle. Also the load meter is simply a 0-10v voltmeter and the vfd outputs a 0-10v signal proportional to the current draw of the spindle load meant to operate a load meter so that will be an easy retrofit.

By the way this is still the low power chip, I just wanted to test proof of concept by ramping up the input voltage. In this case going from 5v to 6.7v.

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slowtwitch
08-08-2013, 06:28 AM
Swath, I don't know if this would help, as i'm just a rank beginner at this stuff. But, would a voltage doubler be made to work in this situation ????

Something like this ..in theory....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4ED_8cuVTU

SWATH
08-08-2013, 02:23 PM
I don't know if that would work because the on and off nature of how the C41 reads the PWM signal. Shifting the voltage up would simply cause the c41 to interpret is as 100% duty cycle since the off state is 3v. That would just be considered a constant on state. I think it would have to be something integrated into the c41. I have some other options to try though. An op amp voltage amplifier or simply running the chip at higher voltage. The new chip behaves the same as the old chip, so I will have to figure out something else. I don't even know I qualify to be a beginner, everything I know about circuits I learned on the internet in the past 5 days.

FannBlade
08-08-2013, 02:45 PM
everything I know about circuits I learned on the internet in the past 5 days.
That in itself is amazing.
Keep up the great work.

Al_The_Man
08-08-2013, 03:22 PM
I don't even know I qualify to be a beginner, everything I know about circuits I learned on the internet in the past 5 days.
Here is some help
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Volume III - Semiconductors : All About Circuits (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/index.html)
Al.

SWATH
08-08-2013, 04:24 PM
Thanks Al,
I can tell I'm about to do a lot of reading!

slowtwitch
08-08-2013, 06:10 PM
I don't even know I qualify to be a beginner, everything I know about circuits I learned on the internet in the past 5 days.


Owning a Mikini kinda does that to a person lolol

SWATH
08-10-2013, 08:11 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3McVCm7qK-E&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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slowtwitch
08-12-2013, 06:19 AM
Excellent work !!!!!! Can't wait to see the results with the AC motor attached :)

SWATH
08-12-2013, 03:02 PM
Thanks Pete.

So a brilliant friend of mine saw my last video, realized what I was trying to do, and figured out a way to do all the same things but with one chip instead of two, a NOR gate. I tried it out and it worked exactly the same but required less voltage. Hats off to liberty4ever!

So I delved into the load meter a little more and confirmed that both the instant (analog meter) and average (percentage read out) load meter are using the same 0-10v input, so that will literally be plug and play with the VFD.

Two other issues that I need to tackle. I discovered that shorting pin 5 (FAULT) is what shuts down the axis motors when the spindle halts so I need to figure out a way to interface that with the drive fault output signal off the VFD, I think that will be somewhat easy to do with either another chip or a relay depending on the output voltage.

The last and final issue to get a perfectly and seamlessly integrated motor/driver swap is the RPM readout. I discovered that Pin 6 (FOUT) is frequency out and is a pulse coming from the driver and going to the Mikini front panel to be calculated into a speed. So it is an input to the machine not an output to the driver. Basically the way it works is that the Hall Effect sensor is a 3 channel sensor with a High or low output depending on which sensor it active. The sensor positions overlap with one another 6 times in one revolution, so 6 times in one revolution there are 2 sensors active. The driver has a logic where it outputs a 5v pulse whenever 2 sensors are active and a low when there is only one active sensor. Basically it is a 6ppr encoder. The front panel takes this signal, measures the time between pulses and with the knowledge that there are 6ppr, calculates an RPM. I know this because the front panel will display an rpm with only two pulses or 1/3 or a revolution.

The tricky part is how to fool the Mikini into thinking its getting 6ppr from the motor. Well the encoder I have is a 1024ppr with a Z channel that is 1ppr. One is waaaay too many and the other is not enough. So I have a few options.

one possibility is to just go with something like this C3 card:
CNC4PC (http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=129)
Then just affix a slotted disk with 6 slots to the encoder shaft. Upon recalculation I realized that the max required performance that the C3 needs to be is 500hz. 5000rpm/60*6=500pps at max speed so with a max performance of 15khz the C3 has more than enough speed to register the data.

The other more elegant way would be to use some sort of counter chip that outputs a pulse every certain number of input pulses. I'll check to see if anything like that exists.

If you haven't noticed by now I'm working on my reverse engineering degree.

SWATH
08-13-2013, 09:10 AM
I've determined that the spindle halt alarm is triggered by a high (5v) signal to pin 5 (to the front panel) so that should be an easy interface. The VFD can output a signal when the drive faults (for whatever programmed reasons, overload, overheat, over voltage, power loss, encoder signal loss, etc. or all of the above).

I am going with the chip counter route to get the correct RPM display in the front panel. A friend is sending me some 74HC4040 counter chips which can be configured to count up to a certain number, send out a pulse, then reset itself and start over. 1024 divided by 6 is roughly 171 so I can have the counter count each input pulse up to 171, then pulse an output signal (to the front panel) which in turn can be routed back to reset the counter so effectively making a 6ppr encoder from a 1024ppr encoder. The encoder signal is 0-50v low to high so this should all mesh nicely.

SWATH
08-15-2013, 01:06 PM
Still waiting on my counter chip but it should be here very soon. One issue I have is that when I enter an RPM into Mach the front panel display always has a lower value. For example if I enter S1000 in the MDI it will display in the front panel "Programmed RPM 826, Actual RPM 826". The actual RPM tracks fairly well to the programmed RPM but that is the one that is off, especially at the low end. Also with the smooth stepper the minimum rpm I can go now is around 500. I'm thinking this an issue with the output voltage signal of the smooth stepper. There are probably losses somewhere so I need to bump up the supply voltage a wee bit or try the transistor amplifier. I'll play with it when I get a chance. Has anyone else seen that problem?

mcphill
08-15-2013, 01:36 PM
My set speeds in Mach NEVER match the Mikini reported speeds. I have not used a tach yet to know if the number is wrong, or if the speed is wrong. It seems to be worse the slower the spindle is, but I can't cut anything under 2500 rpm anyway or it will bog and stall due to not having a consistent torque output (my speed is NEVER steady) on the spindle, and varies a ton at low speeds.

SWATH
08-15-2013, 01:58 PM
I really think this is simply an output voltage loss coming from the PC and then it's compounded by the smoothstepper. I'll try to measure the voltages from the PC and Mach when I get home tonight and maybe rig up a quick test to confirm. It seems that the way the Mikini front panel translates the PWM is by its average voltage, so if the pulses coming in at 50% duty are 4v instead of 5v then the average is 2v instead of 2.5v, half a volt lower and the RPM error would be about 10%. My error at 84% duty (1000rpm, remember the duty is inverted) is about 18% so I'm going to guess the pulse voltage is just over 4v, probably about 4.2v.

This means I may have to power the Smoothstepper from the 12v supply and regulate it down to where it needs to be to output a 5v pulse, try an external 5v supply, or amplify the output voltage with a transistor.

The PWM signal generated by the front panel is fine as in it interprets the commanded speed accurately.

mcphill
08-15-2013, 02:02 PM
I had the same issues when I was running straight from the PP to the spindle, so the "offset" was not introduced by the SmoothStepper in my case. If it is truly off, there is likely a scaling factor somewhere in Mach that could be used to make it match better...

SWATH
08-18-2013, 09:29 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MniZYRaOvD0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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SWATH
08-19-2013, 12:59 PM
I also fixed the issue with the commanded rpm in Mach not registering accurately on the front panel. I took a bunch voltage measurements of the PWM signal at various commanded rpms when commanded from both the Mikini front panel as well as Mach then compared them. I plotted a line graph and noticed the disparity was greatest at the lower speeds but pretty close at the high speeds though not perfect. It looked to me like the scaling was off on the low end by coincidentally 200rpm and the high end by about the same. The computer was assuming the that 200rpm was actually 0 as far as the duty cycle of the PWM was concerned whereas the Mikini front panel was scaling from 0 and assuming 0 rpm was 100% duty instead of 200 rpm (minimum allowed). I looked in the Spindle Pulleys section under Config in Mach and it was set to 200 minimum and 5000 maximum same as the front panel but this was incorrect.

To make the two align perfectly the min speed in Mach must be set to 0 and the max must be set to 5250. Now the commanded speed in Mach displays perfectly in the front panel.
196800

Mike, we both were right, it was a voltage issue but one controlled by the settings in Mach.

slowtwitch
08-19-2013, 02:00 PM
This is great stuff !!!! Keep the posts coming :)

SWATH
09-23-2013, 08:45 PM
Sorry guys I fell of the map for awhile. I was wrapping up things at work before I left, trying to score an oscilloscope to diagnose some circuit problems and waiting on some professional help from a friend to advise on the circuit project. I don't have a lot of time to detail what I did right now, maybe tomorrow, but basically everything is working as it should. I'm still tying up a few lose ends on the VFD intergration but they are minor and will be sorted out soon. I mapped the RPM of the ac motor under manual mode control and Mach control. I don't know if I'm happy with the accuracy of the actual RPM vs the commanded RPM. Can someone tell me if this is normal, can be improved upon, or if it even matters than much in machining? It's about as good as I could get it with adjusting the gain and the offset.
201984

SWATH
09-25-2013, 02:44 PM
Here are some pics of it mounted and the new and improved circuit:
202146
202154
202148
202150
202156

Machine in it's new home:
202152

slowtwitch
09-27-2013, 07:24 AM
I want to see a video of this thing running and making chips :)

SWATH
10-04-2013, 02:13 PM
I've been working on the motor mount and here is the top piece of a two piece design. I have video of machining it using the old motor but that will have to wait a bit for me to get it edited and uploaded. My machining videos seem to suck because all the coolant and splash obscures the view of anything, oh well maybe one day I'll get a go pro and put it inside the enclosure. Here are some pics though:

203372
203374
203376

SWATH
10-08-2013, 08:07 PM
Getting closer
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/09/ega8uvat.jpg

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hosamsoft
10-08-2013, 08:12 PM
i have c.b.ferrari s54e with control elexa e132 please cat you send me the catalog of the elctronic any one can help me i have problmes with the machine

SWATH
10-08-2013, 08:25 PM
Btw I have discovered that the mill is seriously out of tram in the Y axis so I will have to deal with that and a heavier motor will make it worse. With no adjustments curtesy of Mikini I'm guessing I'll need to do something with the column. Any tips Pete? Did your tramming and bolt/washer replacement eliminate the play in the Z axis when pressing on it. Mine moves several thousandths just by gently pushing up or down on the spindle head or pulling or pushing the column.

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allenj20
10-08-2013, 09:56 PM
Looks great man nice work on the mount. You are almost there keep going.

SWATH
10-09-2013, 03:11 PM
Milled some holes for 1/4-20 socket head cap screws, transferred the holes to the spindle head, drilled and tapped them, and set to motor on top to see what it looks like. Next I need to figure out how I'm going to open up the bore on the pulley and put in on the rotor shaft.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/10/he9udery.jpg

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SWATH
10-09-2013, 08:22 PM
I ordered a tram gauge but am holding off of ordering shim stock until I see what I'm dealing with after the gauge gets here. I think it is almost dead on in the X but the Y is pretty far off I can tell.

Here are a few minor upgrades I did while machining the motor mount. I kept losing coolant flow from chip clogging so I came up with something that works perfect. A flower basket from Lowes and a seive from Kroger (on sale for 4 bucks).

Also a length of 3/8 id vinyl tubing from Lowes for washing all the chips down on the inside of the enclosure.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/10/ynemujem.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/10/ynu5avyp.jpg

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slowtwitch
10-10-2013, 07:08 AM
Swath, It's great to see you making headway with this project :D As for the tramming thing, I haven't tested the movement of the column since I installed the new bolts and washers and trammed it. I had a bunch of orders to fill and went right to work as soon as the mill was ready. I'll setup the dial test tonight and see what kind of movement and measurements I'm getting. If time allows, I try to post a video of the mill using a 2.5 face mill and the cut results.

Since I'm here. I might as well give you and the folks on these forums an update on my VFD...AC motor replacement. The mill has been running flawlessly. It's an extreme pleasure to be able to turn on the machine, setup and cut without any thoughts of whether or not the spindle will fault. I have actually cut my machining times down more than half and I could probably go faster ..if I wasn't such a chicken :D

Since 99.9999% of my work is with aluminum, I'm constantly running the spindle at 6000 -6500 rpm. I would like to move up to 7200 rpm, but, I still have the original spindle bearings and they will get very warm.

I don't have a cut calculator such as G wizard and such ( I kind of go by the sound of the cut) but, I'm currently cutting full slots with a .375 carbide 2 flute rougher, a depth of.110 at 35 IPM. I could never do this with the old spindle without faulting and snapping an endmill.

There is a down side to this upgrade. CHIPS, CHIPS and more CHIPS. Since the mill is running like it should, you will be producing more chips than you ever had with the old spindle. I'm constantly having to clean out all the chips. Chips are everywhere ...I like it....it means the mill is working.....lolol.

SWATH
10-10-2013, 09:33 PM
I have an insane idea. I might want to open up the pulley with my criterion boring head. I say insane because I have never been able to get a decent surface finish with it using the carbide inserts on steel. The pulley is some kind of steel and is currently about 0.866 and needs to press fit on the rotor shaft which is about 0.880 so I need to remove about 0.014, pretty slim margin for error. I need advice on what to do, feeds and speed wise, DOC wise, as well as what boring bar to choose. I have two carbide boring bars with different size inserts made for steel. I also have some C6 carbide boring bars that came with the Criterion although some of them are chipped from unsuccessful boring attempts. Because I've not had any success with these I'm also contemplating using one flute of a 1/2in. endmill for the high positive rake. What say you?
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/11/eza3yhyp.jpg

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slowtwitch
10-11-2013, 05:48 PM
This brings back some memories :) I bored out a pulley for my lathe using one of these boring kits. I did it on my old round column mill. I didn't cut for an interference fit, as the pulley had a set screw. I used the brazed on bits and it worked pretty good :)

Also, you mentioned about how much movement I am getting on my column after tramming and using the heavy duty washers under the bolts. With some pressure, i can move the column about .0005".

Here's a video of the tramming results.....

Mikini Tram - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptP_ANs4Hv4&feature=youtu.be)

The face mill is 2" , with 4 Korloy SEHT1204 AFFN X83 carbide inserts for aluminum.

SWATH
10-12-2013, 09:46 PM
Thanks for the video Pete! That tram is nice. When I face mill like that there a ridgewhere the two paths overlap about the thickness of a playing card.

I bored out the pulley to what I think will be an acceptable fit. It won't slide on the shaft but if I tap it with a rubber mallet it will just start to go on, heating should allow me to get it on there. I used the chipped endmill as a boring bar.

I also checked the tram and just as I expected the X was dead on but the Y was way off. Trammed from the factory with no need of adjustment my ass.

X axis (both indicators on 0)
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/13/6ugyqape.jpg

Y axis (about 0.007 leaning forward)
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/13/hy4ejeme.jpg

I have some shim stock on the way. BTW I don't think my column bolts have washers at least I can't see them.

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mcphill
10-15-2013, 04:48 AM
I have never measured my tram, but I have done 3 inch fly cuts and have no ridges. I am very happy with the lack of ridge as well as the surface finish. Maybe I got a "good one"? I don't plan to look at the tram or I might get in a spiral of ever-checking it!

I DO want to get to a VFD project, though, so please do continue to post your progress! I have been so busy at work that I don't get to play on the Mikini nearly as much as I would like. I have also been doing 3D jobs in wood lately, so the tolerances are pretty darn forgiving...

SWATH
10-15-2013, 07:52 PM
Hey Mike,
As soon as I get the mill trammed I'm going to bore the pulley out a little more. I already did it once but got it stuck real good about halfway on the shaft. I needed to buy a 12t hydraulic gear puller to get it off. I think the tram being off really affected the bore as it only cuts on one side closest to me no matter how good I center in on it. I should have the shim stock when I get home tonight. Maybe I'll do it then. Once I get the pulley on and verify the belt tension and that no other machining needs to be done then on goes the new motor for good. I have a bunch of video of the process but I'm waiting for a good video editor program to get it uploaded. I also video the tramming procedure. BTW, check your other threads later tonight or tomorrow for a tribute. Also I'm thinking of making numerous circuits once I get everything ironed out to offer for a modest price to other Mikini user wishing to upgrade spindle motors.

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millersson
11-10-2013, 12:43 PM
I started my conversion earlier this year after seeing Allen's results with his conversion. There has been a lot of activity on this thread since I started my project. After numerous delays I'm pleased to have now completed my conversion. Well Maybe not quite complete, but the machine is usable again. You can see it here

millvideo1 004 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x59lHUHVIwU&feature=youtu.be)

I want to thank Allen for his inspiration for converting my boat anchor into a usable piece of equipment.