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View Full Version : DynaTorch motor failures, Anybody else having same trouble?



WSS
06-14-2011, 11:56 AM
Our DT has been cooking motors on a regular basis, No one can isolate what is happening. Just wondering if anybody else has had these problems and if they have a solution. I am running a laptop with the machine and DT has had me add some grounds here and there, but it really has not fixed it. It has lost only one master and the rest have been the slave side. The Z and Y motors have never missed a beat.

HELP!!

WSS

magma-joe
06-16-2011, 09:22 AM
Our DT has been cooking motors on a regular basis, No one can isolate what is happening. Just wondering if anybody else has had these problems and if they have a solution. I am running a laptop with the machine and DT has had me add some grounds here and there, but it really has not fixed it. It has lost only one master and the rest have been the slave side. The Z and Y motors have never missed a beat.

HELP!!

WSS

WSS, sorry to hear about your motor. I have the earlier version 2315 series motors. Zero problems with over 5 years use now. I do know the maximum RPMS must be kept under a certain amount depending on the series of motor to prevent problems.

I recall reading somewhere that rotating the motor shaft when the power is off can cause electrical feedback within the motor and damage it? I have manually raised the torch and noticed the light on the motor comes on when the power is off? Maybe someone with more knowlege can offer some insight?

Does the new motor have to be programmed before you install it?


Magma-joe

WSS
06-16-2011, 11:33 AM
Magma-joe,

Our machine uses the SM2316DT motors. When you install a new motor (or move one around), the start-up window will recognize the mis-matched motor and show it as red instead of green and go through a upload sequence that puts the right software to the new motor.

rotating the motor while off is one of the tricks tech will have you do to see if it is the board or the motor (ours has been knocking the boards out on the last four failures). With the motor out and off of the gearbox, spin the shaft with your fingers and if the light goes on (with a good board borrowed from another motor) then the motor is still good. This will save you about $75 as the board is $475 and a refurbished motor from DT is $550 (last one anyway, I think a rebuilt motor is now $650)

I was told by DT to search the internet and find Animatics info to get them to help if I needed it, so I am waiting for there response. I intend to send it to them for them to evaluate this one before I get another spare. It is getting financially harder to keep a spare in stock, so I am hoping they can shed some light on what might be happening and possibly repair it. The hard part of having a "spare" is the warranty is usually already expired before you use it (used/refurbed motors have a short warranty period) But I just can't hang my customers out every time a motor fails.

I have talked to a few guys who have the same problems and they really have no solution either. Ours has never failed while running, and this last one was the first that failed while the machine was on, I was cleaning a torch tip and saw a warning screen pop up about torch i/o communication was lost, I checked right away and the lights were on on all the motors but would not communicate. I restarted the software and then the slave toasted.

WSS

WSS
07-26-2011, 04:31 PM
Lost another slave servo on Saturday. A isolation transformer was in place so that was not a solution.

I have a tripod mounted machine gun that shoots 100 dollar bills and it has been pointed at the cutter for some time now, the barrel is overheated. It does not look like Animatics or DT is going to step to the plate. I was told by DT that the motor was out of warranty, Animatics said by the serial# it was in warranty, well isn't that a piece of luck! Here is the "failure analysis":

Hi Tom,

Unfortunately, Minarik nor the factory offers loaners for this unit as
it is considered non-cancellable & non-returnable & made to order.
But, good news, I just received the failure analysis report from the
factory this morning. They have found this unit to be out of warranty
due to mis-use, see the report below...

Failure Analysis : Over voltage applied to +5vdc power pin or back EM
Analysis detail : The +5v regulator rail has been shorted to ground.
This can happen if a high voltage (48v) is applied to the +5 volts pin
or if the input voltage is reversed. It can also happen if the motor
experiences a sudden stop, the magnetic field will collapse quickly
and send a current spike into the control electronics. Back driving
the motor can also cause this. In addition, if the mosFET?s draw a
large amount of current, all of the other components place a heavy
demand on the 5volt regulator , which can short the regulator.
Replaced both the drive and control board. Motor passed testing,
burn-in, and final testing.

Your cost to repair this unit is $665.00. If you would like to proceed

with this repair please fill out & return the attached credit card
form approving the repair fee. If you have any questions please call
or email me. Thank you!!

END of report

The motor in question was not the failed one from Saturday but one or two back.


I told them I would just get a used one from DT and they came back and said I had incurred a $300 "diagnostic fee". The act of cutting is very neat and drawing dxfs is cool too, making money is even more fun. This end of CNC is for the birds!


WSS

Hworks
07-26-2011, 11:14 PM
WSS, i feel for you man , what a hassle, my own machine will freeze if left idle, sometimes the slave does not drive and there is only one light on, I then have to use task manager to shutdown, after rebooting it is fine. also has trouble homing the x-axis. ( going into my 3rd week LOL)
That being said some thoughts/ideas in no particular order,

Your gantry glides freely when air cylinders are bled down i assume.

Can you set home to other end of table for an extended period to see if that changes anything.

Master motor relays info to slave via fiber-optic cable, does that include voltage or does it come directly from the controller.

Does the controller have any saved diagnostics that can be reviewed, how long between failures? swap out controller and harness P1 or P2

How long does your unit sit idle but left on between cuts?

My gantry came with the ground attached across itself from slave to master but i added one from the master side through the track to the main ground attached to the grounding rod.

Keep the faith, DT's neighbor there in Ky, Victoryplasma also use the smart motor.

Hworks

WSS
07-27-2011, 12:09 AM
Hworks, It gets even better, I had a motor next day'd and installed about noon and initialized. Then came back about 5pm to start up again and cut and found the used motor has a bad shaft or some wierd thing. I think the shaft is broke inside or bent. I had to file some big dings off of the mount area to get it to sit in the saddle.

Looks like I need to reload a money clip.LOL

The gantry rolls like silk. I had one idea this afternoon with the Z axis add-a-motor junction. The report said "back driving" can effect it. When I shut down and turn off the power the Z drops fast to the bottom bumpers. Leon said to check the voltage and it was only 12vdc tops that was with both torches mounted, I usually only have one mounted. 30vdc might be a problem but 12 is not. The Z feeds power to the X slave via that cable/harness.

I do not think any info is saved. All but one of our failures have been at start up, or conversly at shut down and not noticed until next start-up. The distance between failures is getting very close now. three weeks since the last. This problem existed from the begining and was not cured while under warranty, so I am absorbing the brunt of it now. It hurts. Our office is putting together a cost anylisis this week and it looks like we have paid $2200 dollars in shipping alone to date.

I think we have hit the wall I am sad to say. I do enjoy cutting and it cuts great when it is running. It is just to high of an operating cost, not to mention the upset customers. Every one is in such a hurry these days and so easily upset.

WSS

super95awd
07-27-2011, 06:11 AM
I had one Y motor die on me for no apparent reason and they offered me no particular analysis on the matter. It was replaced under warranty, however. It died at start-up as well. My X motors have been doing fine, knock on wood.

Hworks
07-27-2011, 10:34 AM
Wss, you say your torch drops when you power down, that's not normal is it? My torch doesn't
hworks

WSS
07-27-2011, 11:29 AM
Hworks, ya that is normal. When power is on, the motor is held in position electrically. Dynamic braking I think it is called. The Z slide gets pretty slippery once it is broke in. We also have a dual torch holder and our oxy torches are pretty heavy. Once in a while the slide will hold it's position, but usually drops as soon as power is shut off.

WSS

WSS
07-27-2011, 01:25 PM
Victoryplasma also use the smart motor.

Hworks

I think Victory is using the machmotion.com package now. I have looked into that a month or so ago and it looks like a robust and powerful system, just expensive. To retro-fit our table with the teco servos (from machmotion) is going to be in the 9 to 10k range.

WSS
07-27-2011, 03:33 PM
I had one Y motor die on me for no apparent reason and they offered me no particular analysis on the matter. It was replaced under warranty, however. It died at start-up as well. My X motors have been doing fine, knock on wood.

super95awd,

Just curious, is your slave add-a-motor harness hooked to your Z motor or your Y motor on the carriage? It is the other end of the rolled up cable that sits on the end of the slave motor and fits in between the power input cable on either the Z or Y (mine is the Z).

WSS

PlasmaGuy
07-27-2011, 05:30 PM
I'd enjoy hearing what Dynatorch has to say on this matter.

13 motors = :bs:

And the service guy telling you there's a $300.00 diagnostic fee after the fact.

There's always Tom Caudle's "open system". I'm kidding here but to have spent the $$$$ you have on parts not to mention you have contributed lots of positive feedback about DT's machines on this forum. Hearing this type of information makes a guy think.

Please keep us up to date on what going on.

Tom

WSS
07-28-2011, 12:51 AM
Myself, I have heard plenty. I must say that DT has two really strong points. One is their control software and nesting package from we-cim and the second is their tech support. What they are lacking in is solutions. You would not believe the amount of time I have spent with tech. At this point any ideas they have are on my company's money (and time, I am cheap but not free).

WSS

big iron
08-11-2011, 01:45 AM
Hi there, did you ever get to the bottom of your motor failure problem?
My Dyna Torch machine is about 5 years old and has been through a major upgrade 2 years ago, changed to dual drive X access with all new gear racks and pinon gears ( finer pitch), also added air hold cylinders.
We installed an Omic sensor and the new enclosed aluminum slide unit for Z access, prior to the slide change out our torch would hold in the up position when powered down however since the change the torch drops very fast to the stop dampers on the bottom of the slide when powered down.
So far not a problem however I am not happy with the torch drop at shut down .looking for cure to this as I have be told that this could cause motor feed back?

super95awd
08-11-2011, 03:04 AM
super95awd,

Just curious, is your slave add-a-motor harness hooked to your Z motor or your Y motor on the carriage? It is the other end of the rolled up cable that sits on the end of the slave motor and fits in between the power input cable on either the Z or Y (mine is the Z).

WSS

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking as I haven't paid too much attention to it, but let me inspect further and I'll let you know.

WSS
08-11-2011, 12:01 PM
Hi there, did you ever get to the bottom of your motor failure problem?
My Dyna Torch machine is about 5 years old and has been through a major upgrade 2 years ago, changed to dual drive X access with all new gear racks and pinon gears ( finer pitch), also added air hold cylinders.
We installed an Omic sensor and the new enclosed aluminum slide unit for Z access, prior to the slide change out our torch would hold in the up position when powered down however since the change the torch drops very fast to the stop dampers on the bottom of the slide when powered down.
So far not a problem however I am not happy with the torch drop at shut down .looking for cure to this as I have be told that this could cause motor feed back?

big iron,

No, we have not solved the problem. No solution has been offered. That said, we will be retro-fitting our table next month with a more reliable servo system from CandCnc. It is expensive to be sure but we believe it will be more cost effective than our current set-up in the long run. The new system has double the warranty of DT and will provide solutions not just parts.

It may be that our table size is just to big for those tiny motors, as Animatics stated in there diagnostics, the board may have collapsed on decel (sudden stop). I know we are not the only ones with major problems here, but I am not sure they are large gantry kits as well.

Your new slide has a ballscrew which is basically threads on bearings and that is why your slide drops when the power is removed, you may notice while powered up that the Z gets a bit hot and seems to vibrate, that is the controller holding position. That INA slide is a very nice and durable Z axis. I pulled the plugs on our Z motor and put a volt meter across it and let it drop about ten times to see what kind of voltage it would generate and had 12 volts tops, most drops were 8 volts. I was assured this was a safe voltage.

WSS

plain ol Bill
08-11-2011, 06:36 PM
WSS I really think you will be happy w/ the CandCNC electronics. The customer support is top notch and Tom really bends over backwards to help his customers. He made things work for a dummy like me so I know you will have no problems.

big iron
08-12-2011, 01:58 AM
WSS, please let us know how your change over works out.
I have a very large/ old Linde electric eye cutting table that works however we don't use it much, would like to retrofit to cnc. Cand may be the ticket for us as well.
In regards to our Dyna Torch I can see that the Z axcess drive shaft does in fact rock back and forth( small amount) in the up/idle position.
And yes the Z axcess motor will warm up a little more than before???
I have noticed that over time since we installed the new slide assy that we have had to increase our plasma down force.
For a long time we where at 40 now we have it set at 70, our slide assy moves very freely, no drag at all, however If we try to set at 40 now the torch attempts a down move (about 1/2") stops/fires the plasma and sets a fault.
Anyway I am now happy with how the machine works now but we have spent many thousands of dollars up and above the cost of the machine to get there.

WSS
08-12-2011, 12:30 PM
WSS, please let us know how your change over works out.
I have a very large/ old Linde electric eye cutting table that works however we don't use it much, would like to retrofit to cnc. Cand may be the ticket for us as well.
In regards to our Dyna Torch I can see that the Z axcess drive shaft does in fact rock back and forth( small amount) in the up/idle position.
And yes the Z axcess motor will warm up a little more than before???
I have noticed that over time since we installed the new slide assy that we have had to increase our plasma down force.
For a long time we where at 40 now we have it set at 70, our slide assy moves very freely, no drag at all, however If we try to set at 40 now the torch attempts a down move (about 1/2") stops/fires the plasma and sets a fault.
Anyway I am now happy with how the machine works now but we have spent many thousands of dollars up and above the cost of the machine to get there.

big iron, you can loosen the four hold down screws and re-position the slide up or down to get away from that rough spot. We found that when the torch touches off around the same position every time it tends to get a hang up area and we would have to increase the down force as well. You can also remove the screws holding down the magnetic cover and put some light grease on the rails and ballscrews. Just remember not to pull out the leadscrew from the nut :confused:

I should add that the higher downforce has other repercussions too, It will flex the material more and not retract high enough to get a good pierce and trash nozzles in a hurry.

plain ol Bill, Thanks for confirming my choice of products. Torchead has already been a big help and we do not have the kit on the ground yet. I have been doing some pre-retro-fit work so it should be a LONG weekend install if all goes right. I will have to make some room for the nema34 mounts and the new Z slide before hand. I will be working on the water table too before hand.

WSS

LeonD
08-28-2011, 09:54 PM
We (Dynatorch) generally try to avoid getting involved on these pages so as to avoid being seen as interfering with free exchange. We do not want to censure or get a "sales talk" only image. We also see that you folks do very well on your own. I do think that if I can find the time to check in more often, perhaps I can drop some useful information your way. The issue on this thread is important and deserves a response.

We have been using Animatics motors since our inception. The unique abilities of these motors has been a cornerstone of our design and low cost. For a long time there were no issues with motors failing unless abused. More recently, it appears that the quality of the motors has fallen away. Animatics has flat refused any warranty for us. We have absorbed all warranty costs for our customers. I have sent motors in for evaluation. We have to pay for every one of these. The reports I have received back are very short and useless. The one listed here is far more detailed than any I got. It was usually "application error". Nothing more. Since we do not know the internals of these motors, we can not diagnose the cause and effect a solution. Nothing has changed on our system design during this time while failures have increased. There was a batch of motors last year that Animatics claimed were assembled with inferior components. These motors WERE warrantied by Animatics. If we found a machine with any of these motors we immediately had the customer return all the motors with serial numbers from that batch rather than wait for inevitable failure.

We have, and will continue to support our customers as always. Animatics has begun sales and promotion of the new Series 5 motors. (old ones are series 4). These are not interchangeable with the earlier versions. All software requires rewriting and no system with series 4 can use a series 5. Since this is the case, we decided to pursue a new drive system to replace Animatics. The new servo system we settled on uses a more standard drive layout with separate drive amps and motors. These are higher torque and have 10,000 count encoders. Servo update rates are 50-100 times faster allowing for greater detail. Sinusoidal ramping also smooths operation. These are 400 watt where the Animatics were 200W. Overall this system does cost more but it can handle bigger machines and has more long term expandability than the old system which Animatics is discontinuing development work on. The new system is more in line with high end industrial machines but is still 25-50% as expensive and our same software interface is used so any user today would not be able to tell the difference in operation.

Thanks to all of you out there for your loyalty. We will always be there for you and must look ahead to improve our products on a continual basis. Standing still is not an option. More new products soon and perhaps I can drop some ideas here to assist your cut quality and operation.
Leon Drake - Engineering