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NIC 77
06-13-2011, 05:01 AM
I'm getting ready to start a build.

It appears to me that plasma water tables are always built out of either steel or aluminum sheet.

How about plywood covered in fiberglass? Yes, I know the water is heavy, but if there are a number of steel supports underneath? How about plastic? Yes, I know plastic melts, but if there are a few inches of water will the temperature of the plastic increase that much? Are there any other options? Any examples?

Comments please............Let's think outside of the box!

Dustin407
06-13-2011, 03:10 PM
I have a water table built out of alum. right now but I am soon going to change that to a fiberglass table. You are on the right track....

Boogiemanz1
06-14-2011, 01:10 AM
Dustin, why would you change? I would be worried that if a heavy part slipped through it could crack a plastic or 'glass table. Doesn't yours roll out for cleaning?
I'm about to build my water table. I used tubing I already had which was 3/16 X4X8 steel to build my table and intend to make the floor out of 10ga steel supported by two inch angle cross supports, and inside the walls of the table. I am building a 5 X 10 inside table..........jb

Dustin407
06-15-2011, 04:51 PM
Dustin, why would you change? I would be worried that if a heavy part slipped through it could crack a plastic or 'glass table. Doesn't yours roll out for cleaning?
I'm about to build my water table. I used tubing I already had which was 3/16 X4X8 steel to build my table and intend to make the floor out of 10ga steel supported by two inch angle cross supports, and inside the walls of the table. I am building a 5 X 10 inside table..........jb

The Alum. table has been good for me so far it just has a few minor problems. When the steel parts fall to the bottom and sit for awhile they are eating right through the 1/8" alum. After I cleaned out the tank it looks like the surface of the moon. I guess this is from corrosion and the elcetrolysis characteristics. So pretty soon I will have holes everywhere.. :eek: I just think a well built fiberglass table out of 3/4" marine ply and 5 - 6 layers of glass and it would last forever.... Plus I have many steel braces to support the fiberglass box a member every 20" or so. After I get done building it I wouldnt worry about parts falling and cracking it....

Boogiemanz1
06-16-2011, 01:36 AM
Would an anode have curbed the corosion?...........jb

Dustin407
06-16-2011, 01:04 PM
Would an anode have curbed the corosion?...........jb

Im not sure an anode would have worked to retard this corrosion or not. That is a very good question that I wouldnt know the answer too without actually trying it. Alum. tanks are known for creating alot of hydrogen or HHO gas during cnc plasma cutting (as well as copper and s.s.), which comes from the electrolysis process. So im sure the debris at the bottom of the alum. tank is communicating with small dc current to help amp the corrosion of the watertray bottom. It takes very small current for this phenomenon to take place and im not sure an anode would pick all of it up.... Well if the tank was fiberglass we wouldnt have to worry about this problem... lol

Boogiemanz1
06-17-2011, 04:07 PM
Well that is a "for sure" way to solve that problem Dustin.

NIC 77 I apologize for hijacking your thread.................jb

rocketflier
06-18-2011, 02:27 PM
I just watched a utube on a guy rebuilding a boat. You could simply line the aluminum with fiberglass, or pickup truck bed coating.

Tensaiteki
06-18-2011, 06:42 PM
Im not sure an anode would have worked to retard this corrosion or not. That is a very good question that I wouldnt know the answer too without actually trying it. Alum. tanks are known for creating alot of hydrogen or HHO gas during cnc plasma cutting (as well as copper and s.s.), which comes from the electrolysis process. So im sure the debris at the bottom of the alum. tank is communicating with small dc current to help amp the corrosion of the watertray bottom. It takes very small current for this phenomenon to take place and im not sure an anode would pick all of it up.... Well if the tank was fiberglass we wouldnt have to worry about this problem... lol

You are confusing electrolysis and galvanic corrosion, electrolysis has nothing to do with the corrosion you are seeing. What you have is galvanic corrosion: when two dissimilar metal are in contact with each other in an electrolyte (the water in the table) the more reactive metal (in this case, aluminum) will corrode instead of the less reactive metal (steel). This process has nothing to do with any current or voltage from the plasma process. The only way an anode would possibly work is if it is not only more reactive than any other metal involved, but also in direct contact with all the other pieces in the tank.

As far as the release of hydrogen gas, aluminum is more reactive with oxygen that hydrogen is with oxygen. Therefore when sufficiently heated aluminum contacts water, it will strip the water molecules (H2O) of their oxygen producing aluminum oxide (Al2O3) and release hydrogen gas (H2). It does not release so called "HHO."

HHO (sometimes called Brown's Gas) is pseudoscience nonsense used by people who have a poor understanding of basic chemistry. HHO is really nothing more than the sociometric mix of hydrogen gas (H2) and oxygen (O2). The only time this gas mix might be crated during plasma cutting is when the plasma stream directly contact the water causing it to split. However, these two gases quickly react a short distance from the plasma arc and become water vapor.

As far as plastic or fiberglass water trays, you would have to be careful to ensure that they can withstand long term exposure to any chemicals that might be in the water. Also, most plastics and fiberglass resins will break down when exposed to UV light, something that the plasma process produces in abundance.

Dustin407
06-19-2011, 05:33 AM
Tensaiteki thanks for the well thought out response,

You are correct about the galvanic corrosion. That is what I am getting and alot of it... When you say the UV light will break down the fiberglass and resin what exactly do you mean?? Are you talking about cracking or delamination or something else.... I dont think chemicals would be an issue at all... Do you not agree with building a tank out of marine ply and glass?? Your thoughts please....

NIC 77
06-19-2011, 11:31 AM
Well that is a "for sure" way to solve that problem Dustin.

NIC 77 I apologize for hijacking your thread.................jb

It's not a problem, this is exactly the kind of conversation I'm looking for. So the next step I think is to look at whether or not fiberglass will break down under UV light and in the chemical environment.

But what if it's coated in some kind of paint that protects it? A UV and chemical resistant paint.

Let's keep thinking outside of the box.

NIC 77
06-19-2011, 12:12 PM
How about this paint?

Supermarine Revolution (TS-1000) (http://www.supermarinepaint.com/topside-revolution-SM-1000.asp)

Submersible for 40 years

Withstands intense UV, high heat (400F), corrosive chemicals, acids, alkalis and staining agents.

Boats are fiberglass and can be submerged for years at a time and can be out in the sun for years at a time. Albeit, the plasma cutter probably puts out wayyyy more UV that being out in the sun would, but what order of magnitude are we talking about?

And does that difference translate into a linear relationship with regards to paint life or is it exponential?

It could be as simple as repainting your water table every one or two years, and never having to worry about replacing your table. Maybe not.

Does the paint on the other parts of plasma cutters typically fade within a short time period?

Dustin407
06-19-2011, 06:26 PM
[QUOTE=NIC 77;955259 Let's keep thinking outside of the box.[/QUOTE]

This TS-1000 looks like a great solution for the problems we are seeing in the future.. Also what if there is some kind of chemical you can add into the resin while it is in the mixing stage (liquid) so that it is permanetly imbedded into the glass and resin to help stop the uv light and chemical repelants.. Many things are added to resin in boat construction can we add something along these lines that would not alter the kick off and not be harmful..??

Here is a link that I found to use UV cure/resin instead of two part epoxy.. This would reject all UV light because it is cured by uv but would also act as an epoxy. Im not sure if this is the correct stuff to use just some R&D to help our conversation.

http://www.artclayworld.com/Tips-TechSheets/UVResinInstructions.pdf

Also what if we dont use anything but fiberglass and resin. Lets let it take its natural course and deteriate over time how long would this take.... Boats last a very long time under harsh environments so my guess a plasma table fiberglass waterbed would have to at least last 3 years... So what build a new one after 3 years, I could make a fiberglass table in probably 12 hours ready to go... Or we could make a plug out of marine ply spray some mold release inside lay the glass resin inside pop it out when hard... Then you would have a mold for your next one however long it would last... What do you guys think about that....

NIC 77
06-19-2011, 07:30 PM
This TS-1000 looks like a great solution for the problems we are seeing in the future.. Also what if there is some kind of chemical you can add into the resin while it is in the mixing stage (liquid) so that it is permanetly imbedded into the glass and resin to help stop the uv light and chemical repelants.. Many things are added to resin in boat construction can we add something along these lines that would not alter the kick off and not be harmful..??

Here is a link that I found to use UV cure/resin instead of two part epoxy.. This would reject all UV light because it is cured by uv but would also act as an epoxy. Im not sure if this is the correct stuff to use just some R&D to help our conversation.

http://www.artclayworld.com/Tips-TechSheets/UVResinInstructions.pdf

Also what if we dont use anything but fiberglass and resin. Lets let it take its natural course and deteriate over time how long would this take.... Boats last a very long time under harsh environments so my guess a plasma table fiberglass waterbed would have to at least last 3 years... So what build a new one after 3 years, I could make a fiberglass table in probably 12 hours ready to go... Or we could make a plug out of marine ply spray some mold release inside lay the glass resin inside pop it out when hard... Then you would have a mold for your next one however long it would last... What do you guys think about that....

Yes, good points.

I'm not sure the UV cured resin is UV resistant also. I can't find anywhere that says it's UV resistant after curing. Could it be like baking a loaf of bread, heat is good to bake the loaf, but after it's baked more heat makes it go crusty sooner?

I honestly don't know. Do you know for sure? It might be worth while sending a few e-mails to the manufacturers.

I think you're right about the so what? Mostly I think it's the colour deterioration that people worry about with the fiberglass anyway. It'd take alot of deterioration to start leaking.......

Fiberglass with UV resin and then painted with a marine fiberglass paint. I think that would work.

How long do you estimate an aluminum water table lasts?

Dustin407
06-19-2011, 08:50 PM
How long do you estimate an aluminum water table lasts?

Well it would last a very long time if I would have seen the galvanic corrosion occuring at the bottom of the tank, but between the green tint in the water and only cleaning it once I didnt see it until after it was messed up... Mine is about 19 months old and is almost done... I have a new idea though that just came to me...:idea: The Alum. sides of the watertank is perfect but the bottom of it is not (basically where all the metal drops fall it is eating holes in the bottom). So what if we had removable tray that are built out of fiberglass that sit on top of the alum. bottom. That would stop the metal drops from resting on the alum. and would stop all galvanic corrosion. It would also allow you to pick up the fiberglass trays at the bottom with all the muck and **** and take them out to clean... ( they would look like an oven tray but out of fiberglass/epoxy) I already made up my mind to build these and still utilize my alum. watertable, its a quick fix for me and would be cheap and help in every way...

Here are some pics of my waterbed... During Construction and after...

millman52
06-19-2011, 10:26 PM
If the slugs that drop to the bottom of the Alum tray have chilled pretty good by the time they make it there. I'd think properly prepared & primed aluminum & a good couple coats of one of the modern urethane automotive type paints would prevent the corrosion

NIC 77
06-19-2011, 10:28 PM
Dustin,

How about a length of thin rubber mat? How hot do you figure it gets at the bottom of the water table? Hot enough to melt rubber? You might want to consider some options other than fiberglass as you already have a watertight table that is structurally sound.

If it does gets too hot at the bottom for rubber, how about a piece of heat resistant fabric of some kind? How about a welding blanket in the bottom of your tank? Put some weights on it to keep in in place.

I'm really just throwing out ideas here. I'm not an expert and I confess that I don't know as much about plasma as you do as I have yet to build my table.

Right now, I'm thinking my water table is going to be made out of plywood covered in fiberglass. I'd like to hear some more reasons why people might think it's a bad idea, and perhaps even some some suggestions for other alternatives.

I do think there are innovative ideas out there that are just waiting to be enacted. I'm guessing that most (all as far as I know) water tables have been built out of steel or aluminum because the people who typically make cnc plasma machines are good at working with steel and aluminum and it comes naturally to them to make the table in this way.

I could be wrong

Boogiemanz1
06-19-2011, 11:28 PM
Wow, this post took off I think there are a number of solutions presented here As I stated earlier, I intend to build my tray with steel. I have a friend that does industrial coatings and their primary customer has them coat large oil field valves. We had intended to use an epoxy coating now I think I will bring up some of these parameters...........jb

Dustin407
06-19-2011, 11:52 PM
All good ideas...

I know there is 100s of different types of materials and coatings that I could add to the bottom of the Alum. tank that would help stop corrosion. My main goal is to do this but also have trays that can be removed to dump out the gunk that will be collected in these trays overtime(cleaning process). So basically I would remove the slats that pop right out, then grab the tray which would be like 52" x 30" (3) or so clean the tray off and drop it back down onto the alum. This would help not only stop corrosion but accelerate the cleaning process tremedously, because these watertanks are a pain to clean...

NIC 77
06-20-2011, 12:54 AM
Wow, this post took off I think there are a number of solutions presented here As I stated earlier, I intend to build my tray with steel. I have a friend that does industrial coatings and their primary customer has them coat large oil field valves. We had intended to use an epoxy coating now I think I will bring up some of these parameters...........jb

Heck yes, the two of you will probably be able to come up with some awesome ideas. Please share them!


All good ideas...

I know there is 100s of different types of materials and coatings that I could add to the bottom of the Alum. tank that would help stop corrosion. My main goal is to do this but also have trays that can be removed to dump out the gunk that will be collected in these trays overtime(cleaning process). So basically I would remove the slats that pop right out, then grab the tray which would be like 52" x 30" (3) or so clean the tray off and drop it back down onto the alum. This would help not only stop corrosion but accelerate the cleaning process tremedously, because these watertanks are a pain to clean...

Awesome idea. How about some baking sheets sitting on a rubber mat? That could cure the UV question for the bottom of the water table (for me anyway). What's the "gunk" like? Is it a fine silt or a coarse particulate? Could you use a fine mesh of some kind so the gunk comes out but the water stays in?

I use layer of aluminum foil in the bottom of my oven for this kind of thing. It makes the cleaning so much easier.