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HereinCS
06-30-2010, 10:25 PM
I'm curious about this picture. The DIN plug I assume is for the motor, the parallel to the computer, is that a vga plug? What are the serial ports for?

Al_The_Man
06-30-2010, 10:36 PM
What are the three power sockets for? hopefully they are not sourcing voltage?
Al.

ksanalytical
06-30-2010, 10:52 PM
The heart of this controller is a Gecko 540. The serial ports are the stepper motor power connection points. The parallel (25 pin) is the interface to the computer. I couldn't tell you what the VGA port would be for aside from digital inputs like limit switches and such. The power cable sockets are most likely relay switched 110V outlets for coolant, vacuum or spindle power to be controlled by the computer. At least that;s my guess.

Ken

guerd87
06-30-2010, 11:05 PM
built on the 4 axis G450

25PIN goes to the computer

The 4 other connectors goto the motors

Power sockets May just be extra power for something, Router maybe?
More info: http://www.geckodrive.com/product.aspx?i=14469

Al_The_Man
06-30-2010, 11:37 PM
If they are power outputs they are the wrong type and dangerous, Power source should always be female sockets.
Al.

ksanalytical
07-01-2010, 07:27 AM
Good catch Al. That's insane. A closer look at the internals makes it looks like these are hardwired in parallel with the line voltage. Grabbing that the wrong way would certainly wake you up.

Ken

Al_The_Man
07-01-2010, 09:45 AM
If that is a commercially sold product it won't get a UL or CSA sticker for sure!
Al.

jsheerin
07-01-2010, 10:04 AM
The outlets (or some of them at least) are probably relay controlled from the G540. I've seen that box for sale somewhere. If the original poster would post a link, someone could probably interpret the specs more easily.

Riceburner98
07-01-2010, 11:03 AM
What's not to love?? Dangerous exposed voltages with no labels... Perfect!

Yours for only $600 at Kelinginc... I can't find any info that says what the sockets are for however....

http://www.kelinginc.net/ControlSystem.html

At least there's a disclaimer:


** You agree that
we are not liable
for any personal
injury or
damage to your
property in
connection with
the controller to
your units !!!! **

Chief Tenthumbs
07-01-2010, 11:46 AM
http://www.kelinginc.net/G540WD.pdf

The above is the wiring diagram for the g540. 50vdc is the max voltage to the X Y&Z axis. You'll get bit harder from a 2 wire telephone line (60vdc) at the same amperage.

I agree that the ABS controller box is a bad idea. I would prefer an Aluminum cover on a steel chassis with at least 2 fans to maintain the internal temperature under 50c when running. I've also grounded it to the foundation. The back cover on the Grizzly G0463 is big enough to house everything including the PS. I'm working on exactly that. I'll have pictures later. Maybe

I'll grant you that Kelings documentation is crap at best but at least they try. If you have a litigious nature, you have no business doing business with China. There is a reason they put that disclaimer on the website. The entitlement mentality in the USA is what has killed innovation, experimentation and economic growth. That's why we don't make much of anything new in this country anymore.

jsheerin
07-01-2010, 11:51 AM
The issue is not the G540 connectors - it's the power line connectors which would have 120VAC on them.

Al_The_Man
07-01-2010, 12:10 PM
Its not the Chinese that have to be worried, it is the importer and distributer here that will be liable, personally I would be a little nervous distributing electrical equipment in the US without UL/CSA sticker, especially when it is used mainly in a non-industrial, domestic environment.
That disclaimer is not worth the 'paper' it is written on. IMO.
Al.

Riceburner98
07-01-2010, 12:35 PM
The issue is not the G540 connectors - it's the power line connectors which would have 120VAC on them.

Exactly... You stick a finger into the exposed 120v connector while it's powered on you're going to feel something.. For the same price they could have used the right connectors... Something like a spindle motor or coolant pump or whatever isn't going to have that connector on it anyway, you'll need to cut and splice a PC power cord into it to plug into those.. Odd choice. You think they'd at least stick some adhesive labels on there showing what plugs in where so you don't plug the outputs into the wall. Or maybe those are actually 120v inputs. I don't see 3 power supplies in there though.

Is Keling a Chinese company, or are they importing the stuff directly from a Chinese company? For some reason I thought they were US based and made their stuff.. I don't really know anything about them though as I haven't had reason to.. (buying stuff from them or whatever..)

Chief Tenthumbs
07-01-2010, 12:53 PM
Its not the Chinese that have to be worried, it is the importer and distributer here that will be liable, personally I would be a little nervous distributing electrical equipment in the US without UL/CSA sticker, especially when it is used mainly in a non-industrial, domestic environment.
That disclaimer is not worth the 'paper' it is written on. IMO.
Al.

Exactly right! Which is why I built my own controller. Those extra AC "inputs" are not marked at all but on close examination of the $900 unit diagram, shows that one is Line Power in and 2 pass throughs for an external display and for a dedicated computer but are far too wimpy (<200watts!) for the load they are expected to carry. They used to use the same setup on old XT's and IBM PS/2 servers.

Chief Tenthumbs
07-01-2010, 01:07 PM
Exactly... You stick a finger into the exposed 120v connector while it's powered on you're going to feel something.. For the same price they could have used the right connectors... Something like a spindle motor or coolant pump or whatever isn't going to have that connector on it anyway, you'll need to cut and splice a PC power cord into it to plug into those.. Odd choice. You think they'd at least stick some adhesive labels on there showing what plugs in where so you don't plug the outputs into the wall. Or maybe those are actually 120v inputs. I don't see 3 power supplies in there though.

Is Keling a Chinese company, or are they importing the stuff directly from a Chinese company? For some reason I thought they were US based and made their stuff.. I don't really know anything about them though as I haven't had reason to.. (buying stuff from them or whatever..)


Are you one of these guys that need to be babysat?
If you're spastic enough to stick your finger in an energized circuit you might want to consider another hobby.
Seriously, what is your point? If you have a piece of equipment of unknown provenance you might consider learning to use a VOM or an Oscope to map the inputs and outputs? Basic EE101 stuff.

Keling offers inexpensive CNC stuff at a reasonable price and have documentation for nearly everything they sell. Their disclaimer advises you that you are responsible for knowing how to use the product. If not and you get killed well doom on you buddy. I've told John that they need to more clearly document their products. At least edit the translations so they don't read like random gibberish. He's always been very helpful when asked an intelligent question.

Al_The_Man
07-01-2010, 01:18 PM
Are you one of these guys that need to be babysat?
If you're spastic enough to stick your finger in an energized circuit you might want to consider another hobby.


Probably not necessarily an adult, what if you have small (inquisitive) kids wandering around? :confused:
If you don't apply and enforce the standards that have evolved over time, then why bother with them at all.
You end up going back to electrically unsafe equipment, painted with lead based paint, electrical cords with asbestos insulation, components that have high levels of radioactive elements.
I am against overzealous litigious practices, but a standard has to be enforced somewhere.
Al.

Chief Tenthumbs
07-01-2010, 01:28 PM
Probably not necessarily an adult, what if you have small (inquisitive) kids wandering around? :confused:
If you don't apply and enforce the standards that have evolved over time, then why bother with them at all.
You end up going back to electrically unsafe equipment, painted with lead based paint, electrical cords with asbestos insulation, components that have high levels of radioactive elements.
I am against overzealous litigious practices, but a standard has to be enforced somewhere.
Al.

So what's next? would you like the government to create a law mandating that all hobby electronics carry a warning for everything that might be potentially harmful in it? Good luck with that. There's always some nitwit that won't take responsibility for his actions or inactions. Like the aforementioned small unsupervised person wandering around the shop sticking appendages in light sockets. That's just natural selection winning out over the "Who can I sue today?" crowd. "Caveat Emptor" means let the buyer beware. In the case of this particular vendor none of the nonsense you propose applies. If in doubt buy somewhere else.....

Riceburner98
07-01-2010, 01:31 PM
Are you one of these guys that need to be babysat?
If you're spastic enough to stick your finger in an energized circuit you might want to consider another hobby.
Seriously, what is your point? If you have a piece of equipment of unknown provenance you might consider learning to use a VOM or an Oscope to map the inputs and outputs? Basic EE101 stuff.


LOL I passed EE101 a long time ago.. Nobody's sticking fingers into light sockets on purpose here, but $hit happens. I've seen Engineers with years more experience than me do stupider things on occasion.

Ever seen a machinist with 9 fingers? I'm sure he didn't do it because it seemed like a good idea.

The electrician at work was scolding me for not replacing the "PC power cord" type plugs on the Taig machine I set up.. They work fine, but at least they're the right genders so active power is recessed. We still put a removable-key switch on the main feed to keep people out of it..

I've got no problem at all with Keling, in fact I'd love to buy some of the products they sell at some point in the future. Just the original question was "Explain this picture".. Someone picked up on the sockets, and many seem to agree that they should have used different sockets.

Al_The_Man
07-01-2010, 01:41 PM
So what's next? would you like the government to create a law mandating that all hobby electronics carry a warning for everything that might be potentially harmful in it? ....In the case of this particular vendor none of the nonsense you propose applies. If in doubt buy somewhere else.....

What next? I would think it would be obvious, if standards are already put in place enforce them.
The 'Nonsense' as you put it, would apply.
On imported equipment it can easily be done.
It does not affect me directly as I build my own enclosures and use the NFPA Electrical Machine Control Standard as a guide line.
This document not only spells out the safety aspect of the E.C. but also practical use of electrical components used.

Chief Tenthumbs
07-01-2010, 01:42 PM
LOL I passed EE101 a long time ago.. Nobody's sticking fingers into light sockets on purpose here, but $hit happens. I've seen Engineers with years more experience than me do stupider things on occasion.

Ever seen a machinist with 9 fingers? I'm sure he didn't do it because it seemed like a good idea.

The electrician at work was scolding me for not replacing the "PC power cord" type plugs on the Taig machine I set up.. They work fine, but at least they're the right genders so active power is recessed. We still put a removable-key switch on the main feed to keep people out of it..

I've got no problem at all with Keling, in fact I'd love to buy some of the products they sell at some point in the future. Just the original question was "Explain this picture".. Someone picked up on the sockets, and many seem to agree that they should have used different sockets.

35 years and I have all 10 of mine. I've made everything from .0005" valve bodies to 12" cylinder sleeves without so much as an occasional swarf bite.
It just chaps my butt when people start *****ing about the need for more mindless nanny state BS rather than just being smart.

The wiring on that Keling controller box is fine and the only reason it's not UL/CE approved is that it is hideously expensive for small companies to get such approval for small run prototypes. I designed an EMF shield for PC's the total cost of getting certification was near $200 grand. I licensed it instead.
No checks yet.....

CarbonKevin
07-01-2010, 04:25 PM
Chief,

You're making very broad statements based upon a very narrow point of view.

Centuries ago in China, bows and arrows were used by the military. Archers built their own arrows the way they wanted. Individually, that worked. Trouble is, the arrows from one archer seldom worked in the bow of another; a fallen archer's equipment was of little use to his comrades.

Emperor so-and-so decreed that all arrows were to be made to a standard. Individual archers likely complained about nanny states and thought what they're doing works just fine for them, too. It was a bother to them to have to standardize their practices. No argument there.

At the same time, standardizing arrows was beneficial on the whole - archers were more effective because their arrows were more consistent. Arrows could be mass produced elsewhere by specialists, and archers didn't have to.

The purpose of codes, standards, and best practices is always broader; it serves a greater good by defining a set of expectations for how something should be done, so we can dispense with the trouble of having to inspect every new home appliance we buy to make sure it will actually plug into the wall and work, rather than immediately setting fire to itself or your home's wiring.

The purpose of codes has never been to serve the pleasure of individuals. Whether or not they make your life easier or harder doesn't matter, and shouldn't matter.

Your argument is flawed. You've chosen to talk about how codes inconvenience you, but you haven't bothered to mention how fortunate you are that all your house appliances plug into the same style of outlet, and all work without setting your home alight, or, for that matter, your house doesn't spontaneously destroy itself because the guy doing the wiring, the gas fitting, or the plumbing figured he knew better than the code and then proceeded to do so.

You haven't chosen to talk about the safety of your daily drive to work, or how unsafe it would be if there were no laws about speed, or that vehicles have turn signals, or be able to stop in a certain distance, or have to perform to a certain standard in crash tests.

Fact that you go on about how bad codes and standards are, and don't take any time to acknowledge their obvious benefits in your life shows that you take them for granted.

Next time you go to plug in a kettle, or a toaster, or a computer, pretend that there was a very real possibility that it could electrocute and kill you because the manufacturer did not observe code in their product's design. Go ahead and disassemble the thing, check it over, declare it "fine by me" and do what you would with it. Then imagine how lousy life would be if there was no requirement that anything be done to code, and you were constantly on the lookout for danger from every part of your daily life.

Would you be better off, or worse?

ck

Al_The_Man
07-01-2010, 04:49 PM
CK
Very well put.!
Al.

Chief Tenthumbs
07-01-2010, 05:21 PM
Uh huh riiiiight! Go with that. Carbon Kevin :rainfro: ol buddy this is a fine example of jumping into the middle of a conversation and having no idea what the context is. Go back to work and quit lurking in the forums. GDMFn internet anyway. All these experts (nuts) yakkin and nothing getting done(chair)

CarbonKevin
07-01-2010, 05:51 PM
Considering the entire conversation is listed above for all to see, I can safely say I'm familiar with its context. I'm curious about how one who complains about nanny states can also feel he has the right to tell other people to go back to work and quit lurking in the forums.

I'll ignore the obvious contradiction, and say that since it's a national holiday today, I'll do whatever I please.

Answer me this, though. How can you reasonably criticize me for jumping into a (public) conversation and lacking context, when your first post in this thread ended with this gem:

"The entitlement mentality in the USA is what has killed innovation, experimentation and economic growth. That's why we don't make much of anything new in this country anymore. "

Surely you can't be THAT concerned with keeping the topic relevant, since you've put such considerable effort into diverting the conversation.

Although your "do what I want, how I want it" attitude probably doesn't see issue with hijacking threads to suit your own needs, does it?

kvcummins
07-02-2010, 10:05 AM
GDMFn internet anyway. All these experts (nuts) yakkin and nothing getting done(chair)

Pot, meet kettle...

Sorry, Couldn't resist... :)

WLee
07-05-2010, 07:28 AM
Probably not necessarily an adult, what if you have small (inquisitive) kids wandering around?

Well, if you have small inquisitive kids (who haven't been properly taught to keep their distance and their little hands and fingers safely in their pockets) just "wandering around" in a shop with power tools (especially power tools that are powered up and/or in use) -- you're gonna have a lot of problems with or without proper sockets and plugs on a CNC controller.

Children are provided by nature with something called PARENTS for a darned good reason.

And you will NEVER make power tools "kid safe" no matter how hard you try. (It's hard enough to make them "idiot-adult-safe".)


As for Chief's rant... you guys ARE aware that the "Saw-Stop" guy has been trying for nearly a decade now to get legislation passed to REQUIRE all table saw manufacturer's to use his product -- and failing to convince Congressmen to pass such an idiotic "mandate" he's now taking the "back door" route and trying to create a quasi-requirement via the court system. That's the ridiculous level this **** is getting to in the country, and I have to say that I 100% agree with Chief that it is causing significant damage to our economy and industry.

port_huon
07-05-2010, 08:03 AM
As someone posting from another country where obviously other rules apply, I have a question.
Is it legal in the US to sell something that is so apparently dangerous? Are there no mandatory certifications?

In Australia, any equipment sold to connect to mains electricity, must have an appropriate certification. Pretty sure that's the case in Europe as well.

Al_The_Man
07-05-2010, 10:20 AM
As in with all things a balance is the ideal, I would not wish to live in an Orwellian state either, but I certainly would NOT wish to live in the Anarchistic-like society that a few here seem to be pushing.
Al.

bigspike
07-06-2010, 04:27 PM
I remember reading another thread here discussing a low voltage male connector on a machine that was connected to 220v power in a Chinese machine. Besides the personal danger from accidental (and way too easy) contact with the pins and subsequent electrocution, there was the real likelihood of short circuit arcing, resulting in fire or other damage.

Rant all you want about Big Government, but certain standards are necessary to protect the public. Years ago my aunt touched the shiny blue chrome right next to the engine head on my motorcycle exhaust. Ooooh Pretty, Ooooh Shiny, Oooouch very hot! She left the skin of her finger on the exhaust. Should there be a warning label or guard to prevent touching? No, of course not. It's a hot engine that I just turned off, still snapping as it cooled down.

As I am just about to order from Keling this evening, I was glad to see this warning. In fact I was going to order that exact item. Now I know that I will need to replace those connectors which certainly does not make me happy. The Chinese manufacturer is just using whatever cheap connector is available without any engineering or research.

With such an obvious failure to engineer, one wonders just how safe the rest of the product is. Should I sit by it with a fire extinguisher, unplug it every time I leave the room, build a fireproof housing around it?

I agree that UL certification is ridiculously expensive and in a perfect world unnecessary, but that should not stop any manufacturer from making a safe and well designed product. In this case Keling will be liable for any injury from contact with exposed mains voltage pins.

I was a remodeling contractor and found some of the most incredibly dangerous wiring hidden in walls and attics. Such as lamp cord attached permanently hot inside the back of an outlet box, run through a sharp edged knockout, up inside the wall, over 40 feet across the attic, split into three lines, bare wire twisted and wrapped with scotch tape, out through the eaves and connected to twin 150 watt motion sensor lights. Over 900 watts, 75 feet from the power connection with no switch, on wire designed for indoor use. The heat from use and the hot attic had fried the insulation and it was hard, cracked, with pieces broken off and bare wire browning the cellulose insulation it was laying on.

I also found plenty of safe wiring that was not installed perfectly to code and obviously not inspected but with the right size wire and connectors and posing no risk of fire or injury. Without standards do you want to risk your life and home and family to such variances of workmanship? This is why we have standards.

Al_The_Man
07-06-2010, 07:44 PM
I agree that UL certification is ridiculously expensive and in a perfect world unnecessary, but that should not stop any manufacturer from making a safe and well designed product. ,

Ironically, all a supplier to NA has to spring for is a copy of the Electrical code and the NFPA document I mentioned and if they follow the recommendations they pretty much fall under UL/CSA guidelines.
One comment early said there was no problem with what Kelling did regarding the exposed sockets.
Presumably then this would then apply to a 240vac or even a 480v socket that had male (exposed) pins? :confused:

----------
The difference is that often in some countries around the world, life is considered cheap, this was brought home while installing a machine in India.
A large in-floor Locomotive wheel lathe was due to be installed using a crane to lower in to the pit, after a couple of days and threats to return to N.A.
About 150 guys showed up with various block and tackle and 50 went into the pit below the machine to 'steady' it!
A welder arrived with open toed sandals and a piece of dark glass to weld through that looked like the bottom of a dark beer bottle for a mask!.
Different to say the least.:)
Al.