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View Full Version : Need Help! C10-board output Trouble



Kencor1
04-09-2010, 06:22 PM
I have a C-10 BOB, my problem is that when mach is running my spindle relay output #1 works great On-Off no problem. However when I shut down Mach the BOB energizes the output #1 to 5V and the spindle relay turns on the spindle. As soon as I boot mach again it shut it off. This happens even though the e-stop is pressed. Does anyone have any ideas what is wrong? or is something wrong with the c-10 board? I have included a photo of my wiring.

Thanks

M250cnc
04-09-2010, 06:56 PM
Hi i think this may be your problem

A relay has 3 contacts

1 common
2 NO = Normally Open
3 NC = Normally closed

I think you are using the normally closed terminal

The normally part refers to when the power is off

So when you leave Mach3 the spindle is energised

Phil

Kencor1
04-09-2010, 07:55 PM
Thanks for the reply, but the BOB is outputting 0V when Mach is loaded but when Mach is shut down the BOB output puts out 5V. Why would the C-10 switch on the output?

Thanks
Tom

M250cnc
04-10-2010, 04:56 AM
Explain how you have the RELAY wired that actually switches the motor and specifically what terminals you are using on the relay.

All safety circuits should be designed that they automatically become safe on loss of power/software control.

Phil

LeeWay
04-10-2010, 05:31 AM
On all three of my machines, I have had to add additional switches to prevent just this sort of thing.
On my lathe, when I start Mach, hit reset, the spindle starts then by itself.
I have to physically start and stop the spindle on screen before I actually turn on the spindle switch before it operates correctly. It is using a DC motor.

My mill works as it should. If I turn it off though and get ready to shut down the computer as well, it will start up before the computer is completely shut down. I first turn ff power to spindle before shut down. Also a DC motor.

My router runs off a large relay. It will act just like the mill. If I shut the computer down with the PS to motors and BOB still powered, it will also start the spindle.

Just odd quirks I have learned to work around so far.
I intend to get the Charge Pump boards though and install those.
Also working on my second mill box now and want to do it right as well, so it will have a charge pump circuit from the start.

M250cnc
04-10-2010, 08:37 AM
On all three of my machines, I have had to add additional switches to prevent just this sort of thing.
On my lathe, when I start Mach, hit reset, the spindle starts then by itself.
I have to physically start and stop the spindle on screen before I actually turn on the spindle switch before it operates correctly. It is using a DC motor.

My mill works as it should. If I turn it off though and get ready to shut down the computer as well, it will start up before the computer is completely shut down. I first turn ff power to spindle before shut down. Also a DC motor.

My router runs off a large relay. It will act just like the mill. If I shut the computer down with the PS to motors and BOB still powered, it will also start the spindle.

Just odd quirks I have learned to work around so far.
I intend to get the Charge Pump boards though and install those.
Also working on my second mill box now and want to do it right as well, so it will have a charge pump circuit from the start.

Then you are a stupid fool who one day will regret that you were/are so blasé about machine safety

Phil

LeeWay
04-10-2010, 08:50 AM
I posted this because I am interested in a solution as well. I reported what my C10 boards are doing and why I use additional safety switches that completely override Mach 3. The behavior I explained doesn't happen when I use these switches.
If you have some additional constructive criticism to add to the thread, then be my guest. If you would like to continue wasting your time on putting a label on me, then please use the PM. At least then I will be the only one that needs to ignore you.

If I gave the impression that I was happy about it, then you read it wrong. I'll work on my splainin skills.

M250cnc
04-10-2010, 10:14 AM
Lee i am sorry if i offended you, but maybe you need to put as much effort into fixing your problems as you do berating me for pointing out the error of your ways.

I asked the OP to post his wiring diagram in the hope that i or someone else would spot the problem.

I would say that is being helpful.

You did the complete opposite , you just agreed that there was a problem and that maybe you'll get charge pumps for your new machine in the hope it fixes things.

There is no point in me sending you a PM which you say you'll ignore, i am posting here so that people need to know to do things in a safe manner and anyone posting unsafe advice deserves all they get in the way of unfavourable comments.

Phil

LeeWay
04-10-2010, 10:45 AM
I knew you misread what I wrote or intended anyway. I wasn't suggesting that he leave it with just a switch, but that a switch would be safer than not. I also posted to let him know that I too have similar issues with my C10's.
It acts differently on my lathe than it does my mill, though the settings, motor controllers etc are virtually the same.
The mill and router act similar even though the items are totally different as are the settings.

The switches are a stop gap, period. They are safer than not running with them.
(from my first post)
"I intend to get the Charge Pump boards though and install those."

"Intend" isn't a maybe. I have asked about charge pump boards repeatedly on this forum and have had no answers other than buy boards with those on board. I did that and the board turned out to be faulty. $140 down the drain.

I have found this board.
http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=51

It is only a recent addition to his line up and what I have been looking for.
I haven't heard of any feedback from this yet, but will first test it on my new mill.
If it works as advertised, I will order three more.

I am not as sure that it is a C10 problem as it may be both Mach 3 and the C10.

Now as for my ignoring you, I would ignore anyone that resorts to name calling yada yada yada. Many other ways to get your point across. A little maturity on your part would not hurt either.

Kencor1
04-10-2010, 11:00 AM
Here is how I have it wired. Output 1 & ground on the c-10 is wired to the input of the relay, the relay has 5v coming in from a 5v power supply. I have included a link to the relay manual as well as a photo of it.

The main reason I think that something is up with the c-10 board is that even if I have the computer disconnected from the BOB ,if there is power to the board it will send 5V to all of the outputs, this does not seem correct if there is no signal to the input then why the 5v output?

I am not at work today so I am sorry if my wiring is vague.




http://www.probotix.com/manuals/RBX-1_manual.pdf

M250cnc
04-10-2010, 12:33 PM
Now as for my ignoring you, I would ignore anyone that resorts to name calling yada yada yada. Many other ways to get your point across. A little maturity on your part would not hurt either.

Well Lee as i am 59 this year i think senility rather than lack of maturity would be the reason. :D

I would get a bigger buzz helping you fix your problem than name calling

OK i have lots of CNC4pc stuff and think its great.

Now the first thing Lee and Kencor1

This function of the C10 board

• External Enable Pin (EN). The board has a pin that allows you to enable/disable all the outputs at once. The board requires +5vdc in the EN pin. If it is not present, it will send all the outputs to ground. You can use this to enable or disable the system manually, or you can install an external Safety Charge Pump or other external device.

That 5v should be wired through a hardwired Estop button and all other devices really, that should be a minimum so hitting than switch YOU KNOW IT WILL BE SAFE

Kencor1

Try to test where the problem lies, power the RBX-1 but with the outputs from the C10 removed so that only the 5v supply and a spindle is connected if the spindle runs then the problem lies with the RBX-1 or the way it is connected/wired

Phil

Kencor1
04-10-2010, 03:29 PM
Phil, I tested the relay and it is working fine. I did notice that if I unplug the parallel port cable coming from the Smooth stepper board the relay will shut off. I did check if if it was the ss board by bypassing it and using the parallel port from the pc and the same thing happens. whenever the board is plugged in to the computer it will cause the c-10 board to activate the outputs to 5V. I just want to know if this is normal. I seems to me that when I 1st hooked up the relay that it was not happening (but I may not be sure). I will be adding and charge pump board for sure. But in my "novice opinion" the c-10 should not be sending 5V to the outputs unless told to.

Thanks,
Tom

I have added photos of my control cabinet.

LeeWay
04-10-2010, 04:22 PM
I think intermittent testing of the cable by the PC when starting and shutting down does activate the C10. I don't think it is supposed to do that, but this is what a charge pump circuit avoids. I think Phil may have part of the answer as well with the enable feature.
I haven't actually tried using that feature yet as I was under the impression it was for use with a charge pump. I see now that it could be used manually as well. I could just install a switch on it.
I do have estops on all machines as well as switches to power supplies, spindles and coolant. It is kinda nice to be able to disable each individually, but really need the safety of a charge pump.
I have only had one runaway because of the computer. It was a power surge and every axis including spindle just went totally wild. Estop of course, doesn't work in that situation. Even powering down the ac side of the PS would still leave a little extra power to the motors for a bit.

I do have my mill on a battery backup laptop. It doesn't crash when the power flickers or goes out, so it is much better.
I am considering using a large backup system for my others when I get moved into the new shop as well.
A charge pump helps with that scenario too.


You might try to simply switch the enable pin manually and see if that helps.
If not, then I would suggest you have a fault somewhere in the board. If so, then possible all three of mine do as well. That would be a bit odd. ;)

Thanks for the help too, Phil. :)

M250cnc
04-10-2010, 05:45 PM
Lee

I have a relay that is energised with 5v going through the estop button.

This relay powers 3 relays, one controls the 240v to the drives, one controls 5v to Bobs and smooth stepper, one controls 12v to control speed control

When i hit that button everything is instant dead stop. i also use a VFD that has an internal relay so if the vfd faults i get instant dead stop also so i feel confident that nothing is being left to chance via software control. Charge pumps are a useful feature but again try to wire Estop in such a way that if you hit that button you know its gonna work

Tom

Nice wiring, i am not convinced that you need a charge pump with the SS as if it loses comms with Mach you get an Estop scenario.

Lee & Tom having looked at the C10 info "I don't have one connected"

I think this is your problem, the C10 has a jumper for pull up or pull down resisters check if it is set on pull up. I think pull up means when the output is off IT IS STILL ON try setting it to pull down so when it is off IT IS OFF.

This is some great hardware let down by easy to use instructions.

Phil

Kencor1
04-10-2010, 09:30 PM
I think I will take a look at how my e-stop is wired. The way I have it now it just e-stops Mach not the 5V going to the board. I will rewire it so that when an e-stop condition there will be no power to the enable pin on the C-10. But I am worried that if I ever shut down mach without the e-stop engaged the board will send 5V to the output and turn the spindle on. I will try to contact cnc4pc to find of if this is normal. If they say that it is then I will for sure and a safety charge pump.

Tom

LeeWay
04-11-2010, 08:35 AM
Lee

I have a relay that is energised with 5v going through the estop button.

This relay powers 3 relays, one controls the 240v to the drives, one controls 5v to Bobs and smooth stepper, one controls 12v to control speed control

When i hit that button everything is instant dead stop. i also use a VFD that has an internal relay so if the vfd faults i get instant dead stop also so i feel confident that nothing is being left to chance via software control. Charge pumps are a useful feature but again try to wire Estop in such a way that if you hit that button you know its gonna work

Tom

Nice wiring, i am not convinced that you need a charge pump with the SS as if it loses comms with Mach you get an Estop scenario.

Lee & Tom having looked at the C10 info "I don't have one connected"

I think this is your problem, the C10 has a jumper for pull up or pull down resisters check if it is set on pull up. I think pull up means when the output is off IT IS STILL ON try setting it to pull down so when it is off IT IS OFF.

This is some great hardware let down by easy to use instructions.

Phil


Now that sounds pretty good too.
I have a bunch of SSR's here. Both AC and DC versions.
That makes a lot of sense too.

I should be moving all my machines to the new shop in less than two months hopefully. I already have a commercial type control box for the newest mill.
I intend to do the same for the other machines. This means redoing all control panels, which really need doing.

Any chance of having a diagram on the relay estop system?
I have a general idea, but a diagram would be great. Thanks.

Tom, that is how mine works as well.
It is good to worry about that happening. It only happened once to me. If this were a servo system, I would not run it without having a universal estop. Since it is steppers, the chance of damage are a bit less, but could still cause bodily harm if you are working on it when the power goes out. Worst case scenario, but VERY possible.

M250cnc
04-11-2010, 01:44 PM
Lee

I think this is your problem, the C10 has a jumper for pull up or pull down resisters check if it is set on pull up. I think pull up means when the output is off IT IS STILL ON try setting it to pull down so when it is off IT IS OFF.

Phil

Guys this may be the answer to the spindle starting when you reset Mach do you not want to fix the problem. :rolleyes:

By all means get a better Estop but try & fix both problems.

Lee i will try to do a diagram

Phil

LeeWay
04-11-2010, 03:42 PM
My C10's are rev 8.3, so they do not have those two extra jumper settings. They only have jumpers for ground or 5VDC and pins 2-9 as input or output.

A drawing can be done in pencil. Nothing fancy needed. Thanks a bunch.

Kencor1
04-12-2010, 10:45 AM
OK, I have rewired my E-stop so the enable pin on the C-10 goes dead when I press the e-Stop. I will still be adding a charge pump due to the fact that if the computer is off and the power to the control box is on, and someone takes off the e-stop the c-10 will then let the spindle start. So by adding the charge pump I will have an even safer machine. But I will state again that I don't think that the c-10 should operate that way, I have another brand BOB on a different machine and when the computer is off the outputs are off as well. Thanks for all of you help.

Tom

P.S when I tried the pull up/down pin it had no effect

LeeWay
04-12-2010, 11:46 AM
I was thinking that the pull down thing might do what we needed. Just trying to think logically why they were added to later revision boards than what I have.

I know initially I had issues with my Estop triggering by itself. Increasing the time in Mach helped, but made the switch slower. After doing several different things for other issues, it cleared up, so I have no clue what actually fixed that.


About the relay controlling all outputs. My estop is only a momentary switch. Would I need a single throw switch instead? If you take the power off the initial relay, it would go back on with a momentary switch, thus potentially powering the others. Not when Mach is running of course, but in the event it loses control.

TarHeelTom
05-03-2010, 03:22 PM
About the relay controlling all outputs. My estop is only a momentary switch. Would I need a single throw switch instead?

Not an expert on this. But somewhere in the rules book it states that an estop which needs to be pushed in to estop, then manually pulled back out to enable restart.

This eliminates a simple spring loaded, momentary contact switch. It appears that many of the commercial estop switches have multiple sets of contacts, so you can use one of them to shut down several independent circuits at the same time.

Tom

vwhotrod
08-31-2010, 11:54 AM
was this resolved? and can you power the C10 board with a usb to turn it off when the pc shuts down?

Fastest1
04-12-2011, 07:54 PM
You definitely want an E stop with a twist to recover feature. However this switch should have many NC and NO contacts. Upon pressing the E stop, mach should be tripped as well as a magnetic contactor disrupting ALL power to the machine, drivers, controllers and anything else connected. Upon resetting the E stop, I believe the proper wiring requires a seperate enable switch to energize the contactor after a reset, this can be a momentary switch.

TarHeelTom
04-12-2011, 10:35 PM
Actually, I'm using an eStop switch with multiple sets of contacts, but have them wired in parallel. I'm using this to keep a pair of relays closed, but one set of relay contacts also keeps the relay closed. A push button goes around the one set of points to close the relay initially, but gets its power from the eStop switch.

To start initially, you have to engage the eStop switch (pull out), then push the push button momentarily.

Any time you push the eStop button, the two relays open and interrupt all manner of things, like the eStop message to EMC2, the spindle speed feed to the VFD, the ground to the solid state relays for flood, mist, and vacuum cleaner, and sends a fault message to the Geckos. Another set of points also lights a big red eStop LED.

Actually, from what Al has said, the eStop must be either turned to pop out via a spring, or simply be pulled out manually

But I also power the mill via a dedicated electrical panel on the wall. Two green button engage a pair of relays. One relay powers the computer, steppers, lube, etc. The other relay powers only the VFD. And there are a pair of push buttons on the panel, each of which opens one of the relays.

I may, in the future, run the 56 volts for the Geckos through two pair of relay contacts (in parallel).

In other words, multiple contacts on the eStop switch itself aren't absolutely necessary, as long as you use the points on the eStop switch to unpower one or more relays which control the other things.

Tom

jafc76
06-22-2011, 02:58 AM
Hi, I purchased a C10 BOB and a C36 Relay board too. I have exactly the same problem with this BOB.

When Mach is running, the outputs are working well, but when I shut down Mach, the BOB energizes the outputs so it's dangerous.

Any solution?

Using a Smoothstepper is not normal to use a charge pump. This problem is very strange.

Thanks