Sieg X3 Spindle Motor Upgrade Suggestions?

[TaK]

Hi Guys,

I'm looking for an upgraded motor for my X3. I'd like to find one that can go +5000 rpm, and be small enough in physical size to not crush the mill.

At first I was looking at the Sangmutan 1100W motor and controller offered by Keling. I'm looking for an alternative for several reasons: Keling is out of stock and, when asked, says they don't know if they will be getting more. I have not been able to find another US distributor for it. Also, people seem to be having trouble with the controller.

Can anybody suggest some alternatives? I think a DC brushless or 120 AC is the way to go, but I have been unsuccessful at finding a motor and controller combination that will work.

I'm planning on mounting the motor on top of the mill head, so being a drop-in replacement is not necessary. I'm also planning to do a direct belt drive conversion and upgrade the spindle bearings.

Thanks for your help.

[cornbinder23]

Any interest in the BLDC motor from an SX3?
It is rated at 3600 RPM but there are a few running them at higher rpm's through belt pulley set-ups, other than that the only suggestion I could make is a 1hp 3ph set-up, or a set-up like Post 130, but that one could get pricey! unless you could make a score on ebay
Any way I have the motor and controller for sale fairly cheap. PM me if you are interested.

JTCUSTOMS

[maggs]

I've been contemplating the exact same thing for my X3 and ran into the same issue with the Sangmutan motor/controller availability and controller problem. I tried contacting the manufacturer to find out about the controller issue status but they didn't reply.

I've also considered various other options and I think I'll end up putting on a Kress FME 1050-1 spindle on the headstock and mount it like Tormach do using a plate secured to the spindle nose Companion Spindles | Tormach LLC | We provide personal small CNC machines, CNC tooling, and many more CNC items

The Kress option will provide 5000-25000 rpm and has plenty of grunt to do aluminium work. I can also use it on a CNC router when I eventually build one.

Unless I can find a reasonable priced 3 phase motor and VFD combo, the Kress seems like a good solution for the time being. I'd love to bypass the X3 gearbox and direct belt drive the original spindle but then you are still limited to the 5K rpm mark that the stock bearings can handle. While 5K rpm can do most that I want there are jobs I do with small cutters that will benefit from 10K+ rpm.

I guess there's no "one size fits all" solution to this as everyone has a different take on it. I'll be interested to hear what your final decision ends up being.

[PriddyShiddy]

are you upgrading for the sake of upgrading or for small cutters in aluminum?


I swapped the pulleys on my x3 and run 4000 rpm with stock bearings with no problem. it reaches 5600 rpm (i also changed to KBIC 125 controller), but the bearings get got at that speed. 4000 they are fine.

[TaK]

I'm upgrading with the stretch goal of having a hands-off auto system with a tool changer. To that end, I'd like to have software control of the spindle speed and I do primarily cut aluminum so a faster spindle speed will really help my overall speed. I'm upgrading the bearings regardless; I hate cheap bearings. Last, I want to eliminate the gears (and associated noise and chatter), thus the belt conversion.

I found this servo motor and controller package:
http://www.kollmorgen.com/uploadedfi...rs_Catalog.pdf

Specifically, I was looking at the Goldline XT system. It looks like it fits the requirements for size and speed (6k rpm) and it works off 120V 1Ph AC which is all I have in the garage right now. Its also enough of a power increase to help justify the upgrade at 1.8Hp. Plus I love datasheets with a company address in the US; maybe I could get some answers to questions (looks at Sangmutan and scowls).

The controller seems like overkill for my needs, but it should work. I haven't found the cost yet (kind of afraid to), but I read someone found the pair on Ebay for ~$300.

[TaK]

Update:

I finally decided what to do with the bearings and have ordered a set of 3 quality NTN bearings. I decided to go with one normal bearing as a strait replacement on the gear, and two taper roller bearings for the spindle itself. My hope is that this change will make it easier to have a power draw bar and not have to worry about putting too much stress on the spindle bearings. I don't want the complication of a floating power draw bar, or do I want to mash my shiny new bearings.

Anybody know why they would put a normal ball bearing and a thrust bearing together and not just use a second tapered roller bearing? Cost? Still seems pretty odd to me.

The search for a spindle motor continues, but I have enlisted the help of an expert. Hopefully by the end of the week we'll find something that meets my requirements.

TK

[PriddyShiddy]

keep us posted!

I did a ton of looking for info when I started the rpm mod and found little exceptthis thread. iirc they are rated to 6000 with grease, 9000 with oil bath.

I just bought the old floating HF impact drawbar plans I will start... idk when. really interested in how you progress with these two mods

[TaK]

Priddy,

Ya, that is a great thread, but sadly it's for the SX3. You have to be very careful because some things are different with the X3 in the spindle area. The other good thread I found is this one, which apparently is where that Kollmorgen motor recommendation came from:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/x3_sx3...napamp-13.html

Here's the DS for the bearings I ordered:

NTN 6007LLB
Bearing Search Results | NTN Bearing Corporation of America

NTN 32006X
Bearing Search Results | NTN Bearing Corporation of America

And some quality grease.

I am still dealing with removing the last race from the inside of the quill. I might have to give up and order a new quill. I've visited 3 machine shops already and nobody has a way to pull this damn race. I'll reiterate that getting this spindle completely apart is not easy. It requires some specialty tools and Sieg just smashed everything together with a giant press. I guess that's expected for $800. HA. I'm trying to correct things as I go.

I wish I had taken some pictures of the disassembly so people could follow after... maybe the reassembly.

TK

[PriddyShiddy]

woops! thanks for catching that.

the fear of being where u are is why I didn't order those bearings when I jumped up to 5600 rpm. I can only imagine the frustration of it all, but I feel your pain and hope to learn from your battle. my plan was to spend the couple hindered bucks on a whole new spindle when I get my lathe, polish the parts like they show in the tear down guide everyone uses and start with new bearings and polished surfaces.

at this point I'm just hoping nothing major fails and I can get a few more of my own parts selling to convince the wife that a $20K loan is justified for a Tormach plus all the bells and whistles. I could start making $20 parts instead of $100 since I would have less fear of wear and tear causing eminent disaster.

I could also do more job shop work and smaller runs since I wouldn't have to babysit quite as much. I know a lot of people here thinks spending that is silly, but if the parts are making the payments who cares? the goal is to get to play with toys full time instead of just nights and weekend :-D

what are your plans for the PDB & ATC? Hoss's new design is by far the best I have seen yet. I even tried talking Z bot into "finding" one of his old ones for me... no dice. not sure how many people know but bob from z bot who made an x3 ATC and the jog wheel that LMS sells is pretty busy now since he makes the Tormach PDB & their new ATC. impressive stuff really. hell of a step up! they are making parts with the parts they made and he has a counter on their ATC. don't remember the exact number he mentioned, but I want to say it was over 200K tool changes with little issues. they had to change a few fasteners and thats it. sorry... I'm getting all excited just thinking about throwing my wrench in the pile of lead screws and hand wheels that sit in the corner.

[cornbinder23]

The bearings for the X3 SX3 are the same IIRC, the quill cartridge is a little different, but I have upgraded the bearings in a couple of each machines for members here and I remember them being the same. (Nose bearing would be a 32907 and the 32006X would be the rear TRB replacement)

With that said , have you tried heating the quill cartridge?
You can heat it up with a map gas torch, what I do is heat 2 spots 90deg from each other right where the tapered race sits and it should just basically fall right out. ( DONT HEAT IT TOO MUCH)
I have also just put a couple of tacks on the race itself with a tig/mig if you have access to a welder, And they should just fall out
Now reassembly, there are a couple of tricks that I use to seat the bearings properly. One thing is to polish the shaft where the upper TRB sits so it slides, so that you can effectively set the preload.
Another trick I use is If you dont have a bearing heater,(which you will need to PROPERLY seat the bearings (NO HAMMERS), is to use a crockpot filled with mineral oil to bring the bearings up to temp to slide on the spindle shaft, and then I put the whole quill cartridge into the crockpot to allow the tapered seats to fall into place correctly. I have more info that I will post later this evening as I am just finishing up a day at work

JTCUSTOMS

[cornbinder23]

Dont give up Tak! You can get it done if you approach it the right way.
Also, when you say quality grease what brand are you referring to?
And I noticed, you did not say if you were even upgrading the nose bearing are you planning on replacing that one as well?

JTCUSTOMS

[TaK]

So I guess I need some work on proper bearing terminology. The bearings that I am interested in are the 3 bearings in between the spindle and the quill and the deep groove ball bearing on the spindle drive gear. I will list out each one:

1. The tapered roller bearing nearest the R8 taper (manual Ref # 79) will be replaced directly with 32006X

2 and 3. In the top of the quill sits a thrust bearing (Ref # 72) and on top of that is a ball bearing (Ref # 80). This pair will be replaced by a single 32006X tapered roller bearing and some spacer; probably a washer or the thrust bearing outsides.

4. The deep groove ball bearing on the spindle drive gear (Ref # 73) will be directly replaced with a 6007LLB.

These bearings are about $65 total.

The grease I ordered is Kluber ISOFLEX NBU 15 which is conveniently meant for spindle bearings. I was looking for Shell Alvania 2 at first but unable to find available in hobby quantities. The Kluber is a bit more expensive, but it's actually available for me to buy. A huge plus! $22 for a small tube.

I finally found a machinist willing to tackle my stuck bearing race. Sadly, I don't have welding equipment, but it sounds like tacking a small weld on the race is exactly what he is going to try. I'll report back on his success. Looks like Grizzly has a spare quill in the USA so that is still the backup plan.

I would definitely prefer to polish the spindle and quill this time so the bearings fit nicely and I don't have to heat/cold fit them in. I'll be screwed again if I need to get them out for some reason. I have a 7x12 lathe which should accommodate the polishing.