Spindle speed control for SX3... - Page 4


Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 109

Thread: Spindle speed control for SX3...

  1. #61
    Member neilw20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3757
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default XMT and power board.

    I believe this is all the circuits of SX3 with XMT-1000A board.
    Not my doing, just the Chinese translation on the big circuit. Hover cursor on yellow comment boxes.

    I traced the BOB myself.
    Look closely and you will begin to see why it is easy to get the smoke out, and hard to get it back in again.
    Any shorts to ground from many places will destroy lots of things, including some of the front panel wiring.
    Be careful touching stuff and metering things.

    I have run one of these boards on a 50v supply to verify motor drive stuff works.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Spindle speed control for SX3...-xmt_panel_1000-pdf   Spindle speed control for SX3...-sx3-motor-schematic-amtel-piggy-back-pdf   Spindle speed control for SX3...-bob-x3-schematic-pdf  
    Super X3. 3600rpm. Sheridan 6"x24" Lathe + more. THREE ways to fix things: The RIGHT way, the OTHER way, and maybe YOUR way, which is possibly a FASTER WRONG WAY!


  2. #62
    Member neilw20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3757
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Motorola chip set - no daughter board.

    This is the other version I have seen.
    I reckon the Motorola stuff should work better. (IMHO)

    It has a speed control tacho device, and that circuit can be tweaked to be almost perfect.
    On this version the ATMEGA cpu is on the front panel board.

    I think the same BOB as previous post is similar.

    IMPORTANT thing with these boards is DON'T use the emergency stop except in EMERGENCIES!
    I believe the door switch does that too! Stupid plastic thing got lost years ago. Wear glasses.

    At every switch on with the ES switch from off damages the relay contacts.
    Turning on at mains switch is OK.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Spindle speed control for SX3...-sx3-controlboard-pdf   Spindle speed control for SX3...-sx3-powerboard-sheet2-a2-pdf  
    Last edited by neilw20; 06-28-2011 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Red message
    Super X3. 3600rpm. Sheridan 6"x24" Lathe + more. THREE ways to fix things: The RIGHT way, the OTHER way, and maybe YOUR way, which is possibly a FASTER WRONG WAY!


  3. #63
    Registered
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    92
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Neil,

    Thank you so much for these. Many things are much clearer now that I see it all together. I don't know if it would have kept me from blowing up my stuff, I usually manage to do that with or without assistance; but I have learned much over these past few weeks and the experience has been well worth it.

    Due to the help of cornbinder23, I am hoping to have my driver board up and running in the next day or so. The IR2103 driver chips were coming from China, and wouldn't arrive until mid-July - so he graciously provided me the chips from his board (since he replaced his motor) until my chips come in. So assuming I haven't damaged anything else, I hope to be back and running soon.

    Also, I made contact with diverp over on the Syil forum. Unlike me, he actually knows what he is doing in the embedded controller space, so he should be an invaluable help in the ATMEGA programming. My gut tells me we are very close to a solution now - there may be lots of work left, but I believe we are over the hump and on the downhill side.



  4. #64
    Member neilw20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3757
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default What is wrong with your local suppliers?

    Last edited by neilw20; 06-28-2011 at 01:46 PM. Reason: extra links
    Super X3. 3600rpm. Sheridan 6"x24" Lathe + more. THREE ways to fix things: The RIGHT way, the OTHER way, and maybe YOUR way, which is possibly a FASTER WRONG WAY!


  5. #65
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    24216
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    The supplier I use here is Digikey, buy qty 1 if you wish.
    Digi-Key - IR2103PBF-ND (Manufacturer - IR2103PBF)
    Next day Air from US.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


  6. #66
    Registered
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    92
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Well that just plain sucks!

    I swear I went to Digikey and searched for "IR2103" and all I got back was IR2103-ND 8 pin dip with 0 quantity on hand. But today I search for IR2103 and I get a whole page, one of which was the results Al_The_Man referenced. I guess I should have tried again, but I just figured this was an end-of-life part in DIP and I had to go to China. Oh, well - the time is gone, and while I was waiting I learned to fly a quadcopter. Not a bad tradeoff.

    (Granted a quadcopter in stable mode is about like learning to fly a frisbee).



  7. #67
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Hello. I am starting to look at the schematics that you have put up. That is good information. I am an embedded guy and have spent the last couple of weeks doing a search online to see where most people have gone with this type of venture. Quazar on one of these boards seemed ot have a good plan of attack going by wanting to create a new in-between board to intercept and then forward messages to the control board. The only thing I see potentially wrong with that is if there are any timing or handshake issues.

    I have seen the "kit" that is offered on Keling's site, but it seems to be not so much underpowered, but my guess is the controller is not dialed in at all (especially for lower speed stalling).

    Personally, after working on some BLDC controllers from scratch, it seems like the approach of trying to replace the Atmega "controller" may have issues in trying to get the controller to match the motor properly. I am sure there was some engineering time burned up in doing so. Not sure how the older implementation would be to attempt (replacing the single off the shelf chip to control the motor).

    I kind of like the idea that Quazar was following in acting as a go between. Then you are still making use of the already engineered motor controller (which ever version is in place).

    I only just started looking at this on this forum, so I still have some learning to do as to what has already been done. I think I may have some time this coming weekend to put a logic analyzer on the comm lines going from the front panel to the control chip (I think mine has an Atmel controller) and see if I can get an idea of how much communication is going on between the interface and controller. Before deciding for myself if I want to replace the daughter board/controller or make use of it, I want to get an idea of how much comm is going on for this and see how difficult it would be to simply go between.

    Any input as to if anyone has documented any of this would be appreciated. I can't believe nobody else has done something like this yet. Just probably haven't posted anything (that I can find at least).

    Paul



  8. #68
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    87
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    I just bought a SX3 a week ago and im also a embedded guy. I have designed a few closed-loop BLDC controllers earlier. And im looking into how to connect my SX3 directly to mach3.

    The route i think i am going is to throw that ATMEGA out and away. I am a PIC guy, so i will design a new control board(aka SIEG XMT control board PIC clone) and use the 3 phase bridge circuit as it is. Im gonna use a DSPIC for the controller and set up right the controller will be kinda accurate regarding to RPM directly from mach3. But then again i might swap the hall effect sensors with optical sensors and a PID controller for very accurate spindle/torque control.

    If i am going this route, i will give away the schematics, HEX code and PCB files to fellow CNCzone/SX3 users. I might even make KIT's for those of you that arent that into electronics.

    Sorry for using the word "I might..." all the time. English isnt my native language and i am aware of it

    I will probably make my own topic here when i start. Im not sure witch sub-forum yet. X3/SX3 threads seems to be all over the place here on cnczone. We should have got our own forum i think.


    Cheers
    Jan Rune



  9. #69
    Registered
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    92
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Welcome, Jan!

    I knew there had to be some more embedded guru's out there! I'd suggest starting a new thread so your approach won't get confused with all the various false-starts we've had on this project so far. Your expertise is going to be greatly appreciated, and I'm sure with all the horsepower being applied to this we should have a great solution at last.



  10. #70
    Member neilw20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3757
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default PCB layout offer.

    Hi Jan Rune,

    I have been laying out PCBs since red/blue tape a knife.
    I have various XMT units here for mechanical details.
    I have lots of in depth design of BLDC unts to 2KW.
    The SX3 motor is quite reliable. Mine has done close to 2000 hours at full speed.

    I am happy to give you some feed back on the design.
    It is always better to get a second opinion, than making ... version E.. Now that one works.
    I can do the PCB layout if you like, SMD or conventional. I think mixed is the way to go.

    As you can see from the post #64, the circuits are quite close to what is there.
    Also the motor overload circuit is just that from what I can gather. It needs to be on every edge of the PWM cycle to work properly.

    Proper current limited, current mode operation like the MC33033/35 (chip on earlier controller) can be made to work properly.
    I have current mode designs using this chip that have been running for years. The just a simple PIC interface is needed to alleviate the stupid button pushing - beep.. beep.. beep.. concept used and sending the signals to the display will still work (within the limits of the stupid display limits)

    If you want to go down the path of the full BLDC design you must use current mode and a PIC that has 3 or 4 PWM independent outputs.
    Then you can go from full fast fwd to to reverse on the current limit.
    Using the MC33039 tacho chip might even allow spindle sync for tapping but it needs to designed in from the beginning.

    Do it once and do it right, and this will make the SX3 pretty good.
    I have an ATC on the drawing board, and it doesn't use precious table space, but that is another story.

    PM me, with your email address and I will send some MC3303x circuits, and I can send you a few chips too test with if you wish. I have some spares.

    And while I am at it an external speed over-ride potentiometer, or even using the up down arrows for over-ride the Mach3 controlled speed would be very useful

    Last edited by neilw20; 06-30-2011 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Over-ride idea.
    Super X3. 3600rpm. Sheridan 6"x24" Lathe + more. THREE ways to fix things: The RIGHT way, the OTHER way, and maybe YOUR way, which is possibly a FASTER WRONG WAY!


  11. #71
    Registered
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    318
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    I am not sure what you all just said but it sounds good to me as long as the finished product will work with my C4 lathe as well =)

    Tim



  12. #72
    Member neilw20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3757
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Has that lathe got a BrushLessDC motor? If so yes.
    Otherwise your motor needs a different approach or a different motor.

    Super X3. 3600rpm. Sheridan 6"x24" Lathe + more. THREE ways to fix things: The RIGHT way, the OTHER way, and maybe YOUR way, which is possibly a FASTER WRONG WAY!


  13. #73
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    87
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Hi guys,
    I will gladly get your feedback on design and pcb layout. This is high voltage design and i want it to come out safe.

    I will contact you tomorrow Neil. You are definitely a great resource.

    Its 2am here in Norway. And i am supposed to be at work 8am. Just have to sleep first.



  14. #74
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    50
    Downloads
    1
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    I wish I new more about the SX3 electronics, Ive been trying to find the answer to the "spindle control" for quite some time. If I can help in any way with this please let me know. I also would be willing to do any testing to help us get through this obstacle, Im just not as knowledgeable as some of you guys are with these boards.



  15. #75
    Member neilw20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3757
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Angry

    When in 'CNC mode' the pushbutton speed controls and stop start buttons used in manual mode are faked in the control board in the machine.
    Just a stupid and flawed way to do it.
    If they would just publish the flawed software, so someone could fix it it then it would be OK.
    I mean who is going to steal the rubbish.
    The rot set in when the manual - CNC machine conversion was done, and nobody specified what they wanted (or knew)
    so East Crystal gave them just enough to make it sort of work, probably because that's all they quoted for.
    The 48v stepper driver shows how good EC can do stuff. Not bullet proof against shorts/opens, but works perfectly.
    The spindle control logic just needs replacing, by starting again. The Atmega maybe be a slight cost saving, over
    the Motorola chip set (with the labels scrubbed off so their neighbors couldn't work it out !!), then they moved the stupid Atmega stuff to the daughter board. Same sh!t.

    And if you want the existing stuff to keep working, don't use the E/Stop button for normal use.
    It WILL destroy the relay on the motor board eventually due to surge currents recharging the big capacitors.
    Ok if you just turn on the machine as normal it seems.

    Super X3. 3600rpm. Sheridan 6"x24" Lathe + more. THREE ways to fix things: The RIGHT way, the OTHER way, and maybe YOUR way, which is possibly a FASTER WRONG WAY!


  16. #76
    Registered
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    318
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Yes the C4 uses the same motor as the X3. I think I posted pics of my boards earlier in this thread.



  17. #77
    Member neilw20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3757
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    The new interface, when we make it will work with the C4.
    It will be same circuits as in my post #61,
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/958934-post61.html

    Last edited by neilw20; 07-01-2011 at 01:18 AM. Reason: repair dud link.
    Super X3. 3600rpm. Sheridan 6"x24" Lathe + more. THREE ways to fix things: The RIGHT way, the OTHER way, and maybe YOUR way, which is possibly a FASTER WRONG WAY!


  18. #78
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    holland
    Posts
    78
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Nice to see that the SX-3 is still very much alive.

    I have converted mine to CNC over the last few month.
    Only converted the axis for Mach3 using a CNCFusion kit. Excellent fit, no problems.
    The spindle control is still manual.

    About a year ago I blew one power board, the BLDC wen out with a big bang.
    I don't know what caused that and as I had a spare board I put that one in.

    Jos Raven
    Holland.



  19. #79
    Member neilw20's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3757
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Bet it blew tracks off the board near the corner.
    A momentary short to ground, like from a piece of swarf, or a wire touching near the display or the stupid dorr switch with it's SH!TTY wiring will do that.

    All for saving the price of a little transformer.

    Super X3. 3600rpm. Sheridan 6"x24" Lathe + more. THREE ways to fix things: The RIGHT way, the OTHER way, and maybe YOUR way, which is possibly a FASTER WRONG WAY!


  20. #80
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    holland
    Posts
    78
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    I have removed the door switch. Too dangerous as there is live AC on the switch.

    The PCB is OK , blown fuse and cracked IGBT ( CM30TF-12H).

    I have made no attempt to repair it yet.

    Jos

    Quote Originally Posted by neilw20 View Post
    Bet it blew tracks off the board near the corner.
    A momentary short to ground, like from a piece of swarf, or a wire touching near the display or the stupid dorr switch with it's SH!TTY wiring will do that.

    All for saving the price of a little transformer.




Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


About CNCzone.com

    We are the largest and most active discussion forum for manufacturing industry. The site is 100% free to join and use, so join today!

Follow us on


Our Brands

Spindle speed control for SX3...

Spindle speed control for SX3...