Speed Control For SX3 ?


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    Default Speed Control For SX3 ?

    I've done a fair bit of digging on the web and searching this and other forums. Am I correct in assuming that there is no easy way to implement speed control on an SX3 mill?

    I have been comparing the X3 .vs. the SX3 and it appears that if one is ultimately going to CNC the machine, the only realy advantage the SX3 has over the X3 is the larger motor - but if one cannot speed control it, it sort of takes that advantage down a notch.

    Comments ?

    Thanks !

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    Please install extra invertor and control it with PWM controller easly.



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    I have both an SX3 and an X3 that has been CNC'd.

    I probably use the SX3 more than the CNC but that's because I use it for drilling and other things. I can't tell you the last time I used a feature that the the regular X3 doesn't have.

    In other words....if you are eventually going to CNC don't buy the SX3



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    Interesting. I'm probably going to eventually CNC the machine and have really been on the fence over which machine I should get based on the features. Thanks for your input.

    Seeing as you have one of each, have you noticed any huge torque difference between the two in your machining operations? I am starting to think that the SX3 is using a much bigger motor to make up for the torque loss at low speed seeing as it's a single speed drive and not low/high like the X3.

    I can see myself using the machine for both steel and aluminum.


    Thanks again,
    Lewis


    Quote Originally Posted by jbanks View Post
    I have both an SX3 and an X3 that has been CNC'd.

    I probably use the SX3 more than the CNC but that's because I use it for drilling and other things. I can't tell you the last time I used a feature that the the regular X3 doesn't have.

    In other words....if you are eventually going to CNC don't buy the SX3




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    I also have been struggling with the sx3 spindle control, I keep on looking and calling on this subject and Nothing.
    I may start thinking about upgrading with a spindle and electronics all together . Maybe get more power out of it too.And also will this even be cost effective,
    Is it worth the cost not sure yet.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Vatorman View Post
    I also have been struggling with the sx3 spindle control, I keep on looking and calling on this subject and Nothing.
    I may start thinking about upgrading with a spindle and electronics all together . Maybe get more power out of it too.And also will this even be cost effective,
    Is it worth the cost not sure yet.
    Hey Vatorman, I got your message and tried to reply
    I have an SX3 and after countless hours of trying to figure out how to interface the stock electronics I gave in and put a 1hp 3ph motor and VFD combo on it.http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bencht...eady_go-2.html
    The stock SX3 motor is very good, I was not able to stall it after really trying
    Funny thing is even with this combo I have not felt an urgency to get the spindle under mach control as pushing the start button is not all that hard LOL

    I dont own an X3 so I cant say anything about its spindle set up but I can say the BLDC motor that is in the SX3 is a very good set up and handled everything I threw at it Al, 1018, 304SS

    JTCUSTOMS



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    cornbinder -
    I'm liking your 3ph / vfd set up on your SX3. A few questions -
    - what sort of speed ranges are you getting with that set up?
    - do you have any more detailed pics and/or drawings that you would be willing to share on the mounting of the motor / belt drive / pulleys etc.?
    - Did you change your spindle bearings out for better ones?

    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by cornbinder23 View Post
    Hey Vatorman, I got your message and tried to reply
    I have an SX3 and after countless hours of trying to figure out how to interface the stock electronics I gave in and put a 1hp 3ph motor and VFD combo on it.http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bencht...eady_go-2.html
    The stock SX3 motor is very good, I was not able to stall it after really trying
    Funny thing is even with this combo I have not felt an urgency to get the spindle under mach control as pushing the start button is not all that hard LOL

    I dont own an X3 so I cant say anything about its spindle set up but I can say the BLDC motor that is in the SX3 is a very good set up and handled everything I threw at it Al, 1018, 304SS

    JTCUSTOMS




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    Quote Originally Posted by LewisCobb View Post
    cornbinder -
    I'm liking your 3ph / vfd set up on your SX3. A few questions -
    - what sort of speed ranges are you getting with that set up?
    - do you have any more detailed pics and/or drawings that you would be willing to share on the mounting of the motor / belt drive / pulleys etc.?
    - Did you change your spindle bearings out for better ones?

    Thanks!
    In that same thread I show a readout of the RPM it is about 3800rpm @60Hz
    and 5700rpm @ 90Hz, I am planning to add an index pulse card so I can read the rpms in Mach as well as spindle control with the G540
    As far as pics go for the belt drive I only have what is posted in that build thread sorry, BUT I can take measurements this weekend and make some .DXF's for anyone who is interested, the motor is a baldor 1 hp 3ph 56C frame that I already had, and I am running it with a Teco CV7300 VFD

    As far as the spindle bearings, yes I did swap them out for better bearings
    I purchased 2 off ebay and found the other @ EB Atmus
    I will look and see if I can get the bearing numbers for you
    Do you have an SX3 or an X3 because I know they are a little different spindle wise, at least the X3 spindle a fellow zoner sent to me for a rebuild was different than my SX3 not by much though
    Also PM me thurs or fri to remind me about the belt drive drawings, and I will update and post them in my build thread

    Later
    JTCUSTOMS



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    Default Super-PID is a closed loop speed controller that allows low-cost

    have a look www.SuperPID.com - Super-PID Closed-loop Router Speed Controller

    Could possible be used on the X3's

    cheers



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    Thanks a million for this.
    I'll PM you on Thursday to give you a nudge.
    The dxfs would be fantastic.

    I'm really torn between the X3 or SX3 at the moment (I have nothing yet). I like the idea of the SX3 but it seems to me there's no easy way to control speed in the future with CNCing it. Your approach is a good one if nothing were to pan out between now and then - just gut the BLDC and electronics and put a 3ph/vfd in its place. It might also be a good approach if the BLDC were to die once the machine is out of warranty, as I have read that the replacements are very expensive.

    Thanks again

    Quote Originally Posted by cornbinder23 View Post
    In that same thread I show a readout of the RPM it is about 3800rpm @60Hz
    and 5700rpm @ 90Hz, I am planning to add an index pulse card so I can read the rpms in Mach as well as spindle control with the G540
    As far as pics go for the belt drive I only have what is posted in that build thread sorry, BUT I can take measurements this weekend and make some .DXF's for anyone who is interested, the motor is a baldor 1 hp 3ph 56C frame that I already had, and I am running it with a Teco CV7300 VFD

    As far as the spindle bearings, yes I did swap them out for better bearings
    I purchased 2 off ebay and found the other @ EB Atmus
    I will look and see if I can get the bearing numbers for you
    Do you have an SX3 or an X3 because I know they are a little different spindle wise, at least the X3 spindle a fellow zoner sent to me for a rebuild was different than my SX3 not by much though
    Also PM me thurs or fri to remind me about the belt drive drawings, and I will update and post them in my build thread

    Later
    JTCUSTOMS




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    Quote Originally Posted by FPV_GTp View Post
    have a look www.SuperPID.com - Super-PID Closed-loop Router Speed Controller
    Could possible be used on the X3's

    cheers
    This would only work for a Universal motor.

    Quote Originally Posted by LewisCobb View Post
    Your approach is a good one if nothing were to pan out between now and then - just gut the BLDC and electronics and put a 3ph/vfd in its place. It might also be a good approach if the BLDC were to die once the machine is out of warranty, as I have read that the replacements are very expensive.
    Are these fitted with a BLDC motor with Hall effect or equivalent commutation?
    If so, one of the many Advanced Motion controllers and others on ebay should do the trick.
    What is the rated power of the present motor?
    Just curious.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    Are these fitted with a BLDC motor with Hall effect or equivalent commutation?
    If so, one of the many Advanced Motion controllers and others on ebay should do the trick.
    What is the rated power of the present motor?
    Just curious.
    Al.
    I will check tonight to see if it does have hall effect sensors, and what the rated power output is, as I have it in a drawer in the shop
    Maybe you could point those folks in the right direction as to what Avanced Motion Controller they could use in this application.

    JTCUSTOMS



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    Quote Originally Posted by LewisCobb View Post
    Thanks a million for this.
    I'll PM you on Thursday to give you a nudge.
    The dxfs would be fantastic.

    I'm really torn between the X3 or SX3 at the moment (I have nothing yet). I like the idea of the SX3 but it seems to me there's no easy way to control speed in the future with CNCing it. Your approach is a good one if nothing were to pan out between now and then - just gut the BLDC and electronics and put a 3ph/vfd in its place. It might also be a good approach if the BLDC were to die once the machine is out of warranty, as I have read that the replacements are very expensive.

    Thanks again

    YES the replacements are Very expensive, but if anyone wants one I will hold onto this motor and controller and could let it go for a heluva lot less than grizzly

    JTCUSTOMS



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    Quote Originally Posted by cornbinder23 View Post
    I will check tonight to see if it does have hall effect sensors, and what the rated power output is, as I have it in a drawer in the shop
    Maybe you could point those folks in the right direction as to what Avanced Motion Controller they could use in this application.

    JTCUSTOMS
    From what I have gathered from googling this is a regular BLDC motor?
    Is there a link for any details on the motor anywhere?
    I have used an AMC drive with a Fanuc AC servo motor I converted to BLDC.
    In my estimation, if you have a decent BLDC motor on this mill my initial opinion is it would seem a backward step to fit a VFD and induction motor, just because the controller is failing or poor design?
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    JT Very cool job on the whole setup. Love the controller Idea very inventive And yes i also am happy with the sx3 motor capabilities, everything ive thrown at it has made me very impressed with the torque output, The only thing i have had a little trouble with was cutting 4140 but even that was because i think was cutting pretty deep at the time. Customer was still happy though Ive been thinking of doing something similar with a motor swap with the sx3. Are you satisfied with the power of the 1 hp motor?
    I spoke with jeff over at syil today and he said he will be ordering a shipment of motors and electronics for a few machines and mentioned he would get a x4 motor/electronics for me but first he needs to find a price and let me know. I'm a little scared to find out, but we'll see what happens. If that doesnt pan out i will checking on the bay for some deals for a similar setup like yourself.
    Seeing something like the amount of work you put into your machine makes me push myself even more. Thanks for the encouragement.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Vatorman View Post
    JT Very cool job on the whole setup. Love the controller Idea very inventive And yes i also am happy with the sx3 motor capabilities, everything ive thrown at it has made me very impressed with the torque output, The only thing i have had a little trouble with was cutting 4140 but even that was because i think was cutting pretty deep at the time. Customer was still happy though Ive been thinking of doing something similar with a motor swap with the sx3. Are you satisfied with the power of the 1 hp motor?
    I spoke with jeff over at syil today and he said he will be ordering a shipment of motors and electronics for a few machines and mentioned he would get a x4 motor/electronics for me but first he needs to find a price and let me know. I'm a little scared to find out, but we'll see what happens. If that doesnt pan out i will checking on the bay for some deals for a similar setup like yourself.
    Seeing something like the amount of work you put into your machine makes me push myself even more. Thanks for the encouragement.
    Thanks for the kind words Vatorman, it was alot of work but was also alot of fun!
    I am more than happy with the 1hp motor, just be sure to buy a sensorless vector drive for it, as you will retain more low end torque
    I think you will find a vfd/motor combo cheaper than what the X4 electronics will be, but dont quote me on that.
    Do you have a build thread here?



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    The circuit layout I've seen for the SX3 indicates it has hall sensors.
    The Z axis has more travel on the SX3.



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    Quote Originally Posted by No1_sonuk View Post
    The circuit layout I've seen for the SX3 indicates it has hall sensors.
    The Z axis has more travel on the SX3.
    Does this mean that a 3rd party motor controller could possibly be purchased that would allow remote (mach/emc2) speed control of the spindle ? Maybe there's some esoteric parameters in the control program specific to the mill or something that would make this difficult.....

    Thanks for the input.



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    From Crevicereamer.com:

    SX3 OR X3:

    If you want the best performance, and can afford it get the SX3. The sealed, 1.33 HP SX3 BLDC motor has about twice the power of the X3 motor, and it can carry this torque into much higher RPMs. The Novakon NM-35 uses a variation of the same motor, and it has a top speed of 6000 RPM with still good torque. The SX3 uses quiet belt drive rather than noisey gears, so runs much quieter. By adding a 1:1 motor pulley/belt, 3500 RPM is possible. The SX3 has the motor INSIDE the head, not hanging off. For CNC, this is important, not only for flood coolant protection, but because you can bolt all kinds of accessories onto the clean head--like a super high speed spindle, Surface grinder, Power drawbar. When you CNC an SX3, there is a much lighter head for the motor to have to lift.

    The only thing the X3 can do BETTER than the SX3, is have Mach3 easily control spindle speed. Someone WILL come up with a way to do this soon though--And meanwhile there are work-arounds and you CAN control motor on/off with Mach3.

    Grizzly has the lowest cost SX3 available--and they have just lowered the price $100 from last year. You will pay more for an SX3 than for a X3, but IMO, you get what you pay for in the very powerful BLDC spindle motor, quiet belt drive, compact head design, tachometer and the possibly useful 90 degree tilting head. There are other bells and whistles, but most of them are discarded during CNC conversion.
    Quazar did some excellent research on SX3 speed control:
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/bencht...ntrol_sx3.html

    Last edited by Crevice Reamer; 05-17-2011 at 01:24 PM. Reason: Fix link
    http://crevicereamer.com
    Too many PMs. Email me to my name plus At A O L dot com.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LewisCobb View Post
    Does this mean that a 3rd party motor controller could possibly be purchased that would allow remote (mach/emc2) speed control of the spindle ? Maybe there's some esoteric parameters in the control program specific to the mill or something that would make this difficult.....
    Don't know. The diagram I refered to is in here:
    http://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g0619_m.pdf

    It looks to me like there's a 5V digital sensor system, but you'd need to see the actual motor specs to be sure.



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