New Shop Setup Q's

[Bill6061]

Hi All. I am a new member here and have a few questions regarding setting up a new shop. I am a ME by trade and I decided to make the plunge and make my hobby/side business a full time gig. Right now I have a small shop in my garage were I make mostly firearm accessories. I have a manual lathe and mill and a 4 axis K2 cnc router (I mostly make gunstocks on the CNC).
I do all of my desgin in SW2011 premium and am very capable with that software. My CAM program is the bobcad SW add on. I know the basics of 2d/3d CNC.

I want to outfit a small shop with a CNC VMC and a CNC lathe. (by small shop I mean a small commerical location with 3 phase,not my garage) Most of my parts will be small in size and production runs will number in the 100's per year. I will not be doing much else outside of the products I make (I dont want to be a job shop so tooling requirements will not have to be to to broad)

For the Mill,
I started thinking about going small chinese to start, like a turnkey Tormach or IH mill, as my production rate in the begining will not need to be super high. But as need increases I can get a used production VMC. But the more I read on here and other machinist forums the more I am leaning towards a used real VMC. What worries me is Ill blow my budget on a used machine only to find I need to make lots of repairs to get it to work. Any advice on what I should get or where? There are tons of shady looking brokers on the web that I dont trust.

For the lathe I was thinking of taking my time (outsourcing production turned stuff in the begining) and shop for a used Haas TL1 or equivalent (a refurb GT-27 has my eye) real cnc lathe.

Ive got about $60K in cash to spend on setting up the shop. Its not a lot but I dont have to go into debt and I am pretty sure I can swing it if I am frugal.

Thanks for any help and I look forward to being an active member of this forum.

[Runner4404spd]

where are you located? that would help to narrow down what your looking for. basically any cnc machine can do what your after but you need to figure tooling, work holding and cam into your budget as well. 60k is alot to start with but lets not get ahead of ourselves. you really need to look at how your going to support yourself when stuff don't sell.

space rental $1000/month
used cnc mill $20k
used cnc lathe $15-20k

tooling up both 10k

really your not up to alot and you haven't made any chips. i'm just letting you know, that your best bet would be to outsource your parts to start and then as you grow invest in machinery. 60k will buy alot of parts. can you turn the 60k into 120k and give yourself a better start? i agree with starting with real machinery. i tried starting my shop with hobby level stuff only to find out that i out grew it very quickly.

[Bill6061]

Thanks for the help. Ive got cam already (bobcad for SW). I own a consulting bussiness related to the oil and gas industry so I dont need to worry about making rent. If I need some jack, Ill take a couple clients. Thats a reason why I can afford not to be a job shop (plus my wife works ) I live in Ft. Worth, TX. So, you are of the opinon I should buy used production equipment. What I think I am leaning towards is seting up a VMC and tool it up to start, outsource the production turned stuff, then when I can afford it, buy a production CNC lathe. What worries me about spending my startup money on outsourced inventory is, if I spend $50K on inventory and it doesnt sell like I expect, then I am sitting on a pile of scrap. If I buy machines, and items dont sell, Ill make something that does, or take other jobs that pay. The way I look at it is, I know I can make money with a machine and thats where I would like to invest. I think its a safer bet. I may only be able to make a few small runs just starting out, but the good side to that its a cheap way to test market products.
Thanks again for any help!

[Runner4404spd]

NO i think you should outsource everything and focus on the design work and inspection and testing. the great prices on cnc equipment of 3 years ago are gone. plus you will need to buy inspection equipment and other stuff to get your parts together. there is alot of investment in starting a shop and unless you really want to learn how to code and make parts, don't start your own shop. there are plenty of shops out there that are hungry for work. coming up with a product and running with it is the hardest part of running a shop. you'd be better off focusing on advertizing and getting your product name out there so you can lower your costs and buy your parts in volume from a production shop.

people don't realize that time is money and ultimately that is your most precious commodity, especially when starting a business.

[asuratman]

Hi Bill,
If you can make drilling equipment,you can get breakevent fast. Then you can buy some more equipment. I make drilling equipment here.

[Bill6061]

I am well aware or what my time is worth, I am an engineering consultant and do fairly well at it (its not what I love to do though). In order to cut down design time I am going to have to purchase a CNC mill and Lathe. I dont want to outsource proto work as that get tedious and pricey, plus costs more time. So perhaps I should setup for protowork (chicom cnc mill and cnc lathe ala tormach) and outsource production once I have my parts desgined and finalized. That does sound better. Thanks for the help, I appreicate the straight shootin.