Mini CNC suggestions ?


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    Default Mini CNC suggestions ?

    Hello.
    I'm a 3d artist/animator and I'm interested in buying a small office sized but high resolution cnc milling machine that can handle stainless steel and brass. The idea is to be able to "send" detailed models of chess pawns from 3dsmax (or other software) to the cnc and have them carved out of steel or brass.
    Let me hear your suggestions please.
    Thanks

    P.s. kits or assembled systems, doesn't really matter.

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    Default Re: Mini CNC suggestions ?

    Anything that can handle stainless steel needs to be pretty heavy duty. A small Tormach mill or lathe comes to mind, but your definition of "office" sized may be different than mine. A mill is not something I would really want in an office... You need a small shop or garage for any mill or lathe really. You don't just clamp in the metal and "send" the file to a cnc mill or lathe from the cad drawing software and expect it to cut out an object. It's not like an 3D printer at all. At times extensive fixturing and changes for multiple cuts is required. You may be able to design the piece in 3dmax, but then there are steps to produce the cam/post gcode required (based on your cutter, speeds, feeds etc) and then run it with your cnc driver software. Some cad software like inventor enable completing the machining steps using HSM, but in all cases it's additional steps after drawing your part. A chess pawn would be something that would be better produced on a cnc lathe, or a mill with a 4th axis which is rotary. I'd suggest some extensive research and learn all you can about the different types of machines and their capabilities before diving into a purchase.



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    Default Re: Mini CNC suggestions ?

    Hi........the short answer is you need to have at least $5,000 of disposable income, apart from your cigarette and booze money, to buy a second hand well used as in worn out CNC bench top mill for metals etc, and then start saving some more money to tool it up.

    Buying in something that needs to be converted to CNC is another way, but you're in for at least $2K for the basic manual machine like an SX2 or the bigger SX3 and you also need to have good knowledge and some machining expertise and tooling to do the conversion......plus another $2k for the bits and pieces to make it go etc.

    Don't even think about a gantry router like a 3020 or 3040 on EBAY that go for a grand as they won't cut metals at all.

    If you don't have money to burn, you could go the other way and buy a small gantry router for a grand or so and carve your pieces out in plastic and go the lost wax or investment molding path as it's a very DIY capable process.

    Carving a chess piece from solid is also a multi handling process unless you use a 4th axis to rotate the piece as you go 360 deg around it.

    If the piece is your own special creation as opposed to buying in a Vectric design etc, you'll also need a decent CAD program to create it and a CAM program to get the tool path......Fusion 360 is an ideal CAD/CAM program for that......good luck.

    I have no connections with Skyfire.com, but as a very satisfied customer I will say that he/they have a very economical basic CNC mill on their website going for 3 1/2 big ones plus shipping etc, but it's worth every penny, trust me, and it's a complete package ready to run and they have an agency in the USA......just add water and stir....LOL.
    Ian.



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    Quote Originally Posted by coherent View Post
    Anything that can handle stainless steel needs to be pretty heavy duty. A small Tormach mill or lathe comes to mind, but your definition of "office" sized may be different than mine. A mill is not something I would really want in an office... You need a small shop or garage for any mill or lathe really. You don't just clamp in the metal and "send" the file to a cnc mill or lathe from the cad drawing software and expect it to cut out an object. It's not like an 3D printer at all. At times extensive fixturing and changes for multiple cuts is required. You may be able to design the piece in 3dmax, but then there are steps to produce the cam/post gcode required (based on your cutter, speeds, feeds etc) and then run it with your cnc driver software. Some cad software like inventor enable completing the machining steps using HSM, but in all cases it's additional steps after drawing your part. A chess pawn would be something that would be better produced on a cnc lathe, or a mill with a 4th axis which is rotary. I'd suggest some extensive research and learn all you can about the different types of machines and their capabilities before diving into a purchase.
    Thanks for the input.
    Yes, by office sized I actually meant something that can be placed in a garage and that's for smaller objects, the "opposite" of a 3d printer.



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    Default Re: Mini CNC suggestions ?

    A Taig mill would probably be your best bet for making small things like chess pieces in metal, without spending a fortune. They have a 4th axis attachment that would make carving them in the round much easier than on a 3-axis machine, and the new ball screw option makes them faster and more precise. Stainless is a bit difficult for a small machine like that, but not impossible if you use the right alloy and tools and dial in the feeds and speeds correctly. But brass shouldn't be a problem. I'd suggest DeskProto as an economical CAM package capable of generating the 4th axis toolpaths. Most of the pieces (in a Staunton set, anyway) would be suited to continuous 4th axis milling, but the knights would probably do better with indexing. Check my site for more info on both the mill and the software. (It's a bit behind the times, but I'm in the process of updating it as we speak...)

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: Mini CNC suggestions ?

    Hi Andrew.....just had a browse on your linked website.........so many goodies it make the mind reel.

    The Taig 2019CR fully CNC long bed mini mill at a grand looks very promising........small work envelope, but that is relative to your needs......and the bigger model is not that much dearer.

    What really blew my socks off was the laser scanner as it's exactly the item you need to record the 3D shape from a carved clay model....without actually touching it......never mind the price, the value is in the final results etc.......time to pawn the family jewels once again.

    I think to be able to render a complex shape to code for milling from a clay or whatever model has to be easier than drawing it up in CAD as you can see the final product shape before you start machining or making a 3D printed part.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Mini CNC suggestions ?

    Thanks for the kind words about my site, Ian. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the "CR" mills are "CNC-ready", not fully CNC-equipped. They have mounts for NEMA 23 stepper motors, but you'd need to supply them, as well as a control system, cables, DC power supply, etc.

    Yes, a 3D scanner is a great tool to have, especially if you're starting from clay or other existing models. I use one to capture surface data from natural forms, and incorporate it into sculptures I then carve with a mill or router.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: Mini CNC suggestions ?

    Quote Originally Posted by awerby View Post
    Thanks for the kind words about my site, Ian. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the "CR" mills are "CNC-ready", not fully CNC-equipped. They have mounts for NEMA 23 stepper motors, but you'd need to supply them, as well as a control system, cables, DC power supply, etc.

    Yes, a 3D scanner is a great tool to have, especially if you're starting from clay or other existing models. I use one to capture surface data from natural forms, and incorporate it into sculptures I then carve with a mill or router.
    Hmmmm....I would have thought CNC ready was more for the buck etc.....it still has the Acme threaded screws and the quill which makes it a not so good package as far as I think.

    For around a grand (OZ$),....... on sale at AUSEE,COM here in Dandenong, Victoria...... the SX2LF is a much better design.....it now has the solid base mount, longer table and the head designed to slide up and down on the column for Z axis travel which does away with the horrible quill design that's only fit for manual mills.

    It also comes with an R8 spindle option option........that has to be the biggest biggie in my book, as you can go straight to cutter holding with R8 collets without having to lose Z height with a chuck.

    OK, so you would still have to pull the handles off and fit stepper mounts, but as the design probably wouldn't allow fitting ball screws and ball nuts without doing some surgery to the underside of the table and saddles etc, living with the Acme threaded screws is par for the course, but it can be done if you're very fussy.

    It's a small mill but so is the Taig.....almost the same travels etc, as it has the longer table.

    The LF in the title name stands for F for a fixed column, without the sideways tilt, and L for the longer table.

    The very fact that the quill is out of the picture puts it streets ahead in my estimation, a feature I heavily subscribe to for a CNC mill.

    I also seem to recall that the spindle is driven with gears......but if I'm right a belt drive conversion is available, which is definitely the way to go.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Mini CNC suggestions ?

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Hmmmm....I would have thought CNC ready was more for the buck etc.....it still has the Acme threaded screws and the quill which makes it a not so good package as far as I think.

    [You get what you pay for. For more money, you can get it with ball screws. And the Taig doesn't have a quill; the Z axis is driven directly by a screw.]

    For around a grand (OZ$),....... on sale at AUSEE,COM here in Dandenong, Victoria...... the SX2LF is a much better design.....it now has the solid base mount, longer table and the head designed to slide up and down on the column for Z axis travel which does away with the horrible quill design that's only fit for manual mills.

    It also comes with an R8 spindle option option........that has to be the biggest biggie in my book, as you can go straight to cutter holding with R8 collets without having to lose Z height with a chuck.


    [One of these: Ausee Machines & Tools ? That's a clunky Chinese manual mill. Crappy leadscrews on X and Y and a quill for Z (unless there's another one they're not picturing), running on a sloppy rack. Selling a tool with a Morse taper and Jacobs chuck on it as a mill seems like a dangerous thing to do; Morse tapers don't tolerate sideways pressure well (I guess that little plastic shield is supposed to help keep the chuck from killing you when it lets go), and the chuck has too much runout for milling. The Taig uses an ER-16 collet system, not a chuck (although there's a Jacobs chuck option for drilling). It's a lot easier to change than R8 as well as saving headroom.]

    OK, so you would still have to pull the handles off and fit stepper mounts, but as the design probably wouldn't allow fitting ball screws and ball nuts without doing some surgery to the underside of the table and saddles etc, living with the Acme threaded screws is par for the course, but it can be done if you're very fussy.

    [The screws those things come with are best thrown out, but you can replace them (and the Z rack) with decent acme screws. If you want to get into a project, there's a guy here who goes by the name "Hoss" with a lot of information about retrofitting these mills for CNC: Hossmachine Homepage ]

    It's a small mill but so is the Taig.....almost the same travels etc, as it has the longer table.


    The LF in the title name stands for F for a fixed column, without the sideways tilt, and L for the longer table.

    The very fact that the quill is out of the picture puts it streets ahead in my estimation, a feature I heavily subscribe to for a CNC mill.

    I also seem to recall that the spindle is driven with gears......but if I'm right a belt drive conversion is available, which is definitely the way to go.
    Ian.
    The spindle tops out at 2500 RPM, which means it won't work too well with small tools (the Taig goes up to 10,000 RPM). With a mill this size, small tools are most of what you'd be using. Maybe the belt-drive option would give you more speed; I'm not sure about that. But it's a lot of work to do that, and convert the mill to CNC (with the CR Taig, all you'd need to do is install the motors and start milling), and at the end of it, it still won't be as good as a Taig. I know the Australian dollar isn't looking too good against American dollars right now, but even at 75%, I'm not seeing much savings, especially if your time is worth anything.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: Mini CNC suggestions ?

    AxelKay, I have machinery that may fit your requirements, please PM me and we can go into details....Thanks



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    Default Re: Mini CNC suggestions ?

    Hi, the SX2LF has the belt drive as a normal layout.....you can also get it with gears if you want.

    The Z axis is driven by a rack and pinion directly on the column....no quill, that is on the plain SX2 model that goes for approc A$650, with a 3 Morde taper, but the R8 of the SX2LF is streets if not miles better.

    The plain X2 and SX2 models have the bottom of the column mounted against the back of the base casting to allow it to tilt at 45 deg left to right....OK for manual milling, no good for CNC.

    In my opinion any mill with Acme threads is crap due to the backlash that can't be eliminated unless you want to re-invent the wheel and devise a scheme of your own.

    Fitting ball screws in place of the Acme threads is a highly recommended project as it brings any mill so fitted into a class of it's own, but it does take some surgery to achieve it.

    BTW........any small mill with R8 does not have a quill unless it's bigger in diam than one fitted to a Bridgeport, hence there's no quill on the X2 LF model and the Z axis move is with the head on the column.

    The mill that Hoss refitted is much bigger than the SX2, about the same size as the SX3.....and has that dratted quill in the bargain which is crap.........locking the quill up and moving the head casting on the column dovetails is a compromise for those manual quill models due to the "head knod" syndrome....the head was designed to be fixed on the column, not moving, and the quill to do the rise and fall which is very limited in travel.

    Speed?....well you can do a refit in that quarter too if you want more speed.

    Here's a few pics of the SX2LF model....just as a matter of interest....it's shown with a Jacobs chuck and probably the Morse 3 spindle......there is a draw bar for the Morse 3 too, but it also comes with the R8 option according to the sellers blurb.
    Ian.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Mini CNC suggestions  ?-sieg-sx2-lf-1-jpg   Mini CNC suggestions  ?-sieg-sx2-lf-4-jpg   Mini CNC suggestions  ?-sieg-sx2-lf-3-jpg  


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    Default Re: Mini CNC suggestions ?

    BTW.....just for the record, I worked for 5 years on a Bridgeport mill that had a 3 Morse tapered spindle and it was adequate for the needs but needed milling chucks to hold the cutters for milling..

    I also owned a Bridgeport mill that had an R8 spindle and that was streets ahead of the 3 Morse model......mainly in the fact that a few R8 collet is all it needs to hold all the cutter you would want to use, and R8 shanks for other tooling that are not collet held.

    The cutters are held right up to the end of the spindle face without any stick out that you have with a chuck mount.

    My present mill has an ISO40 spindle and I have to use ER32 collet chucks and tooling for that........I do miss the R8 spindle though, it was so damned convenient and never missed a beat......10 collets for Imperial and Metric cutters and they never ran out.
    Ian.



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