Question about setting up viper drives.

[Jackal66]

Hello,
I have an older Hurco that is a little expensive to up keep with factory parts.

In the future a retrofit may be in order. It is a km3p with servos.

If I understand correctly, you can take a desktop PC with Windows 2000 & a monitor.( stripped down for controller use only)

Install this Lcam software that has a breakout board with it :
http://www.larkencnc.com/motion/lcamcust.htm

Connect new encoders, viper drives, power source, limit switches, inverter drive for the spindle motor, plus all of the wiring, and this will be the cnc controller.

Is this correct?

The machine is in very good shape mechanically.

So many people say use a Campbell break out board, Mach 3, and all of these components from different manufacturers.

My luck has always been best to get it all from one place. My electronics knowledge isn't good enough to cross reference all of this to piece it together. Plus, I feel like a burden to have to bother other people to get something going.

Would this work out better if an Ajax controller for 3rd party drives was purchased to use with the vipers?

Like this:

http://www.ajaxcnc.com/mach_cnc_systems.htm

I know there will be a lot of tuning involved.

What I want is something that;

1) Will be the quickest to install. A month or more is ok. Those that claim "make chips in 72 hours" would be impossible.

2) Run on Windows. There is enough of a learning curve with the electronics and new control. Don't need or want DOS or Linux< (Although I have great respect for those systems.)

3)Has diagnostic LEDs and some sort of manual to tell you what to check according to what is flashing.

4) I don't want to have to learn how to use, or hire someone with an oscilloscope to tune the thing.

5) Must be able to use Mastercam v9 to post long G-code programs to it. A few conversational canned cycles is ok.( That is why I thought of the L-Cam)

These items may be far fetched, but line me out with the truth of what is what. Maybe I'm asking for too much.

Thanks in advance.

JAckal

[i_r_machinist]

Jackal,
I did a BUNCH of research before I ended up with my system. Mach3 seemed to be the most used software. Viper boards because I was pushing 120vdc servos. Keithmech retro-ed the same machine and recommended these drives. I also had a sales rep from one of the bigger board makers point me to the vipers. The Bob Campbell boards were also recommended by Kieth,(which was backed up by more research on BOBs.)
more later got a customer
i_r_

[gtool]

I second what i_r_ said,
I converted the exact same machine as your's with the vipers and mach3 it's now been running 6mnths without a glitch.
I'm in the middle of converting a hurco mb1 with the vipers and mach3.
So much easier the second time around.
I picked up 2 cheap toshiba laptops on ebay with printer ports and run them through a cnc4pc bob.
Add a 4 way solid state relay to control the coolant and spindle for, rev, and you have all you need.
The encoders on the servos on your mill should work if it's a bx control.
The power source should also be fine, not sure about the limit switches though I've mine wired up but find them way too sensitive and so keep the machine well within its limits.
I'll have to look at replacing them.

If you need any help don't hesitate to ask.

Cheers G

[keithmech]

a couple of questions.Do you need this machine to make chips
to pay the rent?If yes factor in the time ,it is never as easy as
it sounds.How much electrical knowledge do you have?
There is alot to learn.That being said it is great fun refitting a
cnc machine.There is way more info available on line than
you can imagine.There are some great sites with people full
of ideas and help.check out the Mach 3 forum for starters.Your
machine looks pretty straight forward ,no tool changer.
I am finishing of my 4th machine, with my eyes open for the
next! I want to find a flat bed lathe next.(hint)

[Jackal66]

I've been researching retrofits for about 3 years now. My first thoughts were to get machine that didn't run at all, and retro. Then the Hurco came along and it is running.

Mastercam is something I am familiar with, and the wizards in Mach 3 seem pretty easy.

As far as time goes, there aren't any cnc jobs coming in. Most of it I quote for time on my manual mill. If it is a job that can be done cnc and save time, then that's where it goes.

If the mill was more reliable, I would take in more cnc profile work, street rod engine brackets, door handles, etc.

As far as electrical knowledge, about 25 years ago, I messed with Radio Shack projects, guitar amplifiers, stereos. Now I do any household wiring, shop wiring. Re-wired a 3 -phase royal lathe with contactors & relays. Also, I have wired a few race cars: ignition systems w/ relays & the works.

Those transistors & servo amps , and SCR's are new to me.

I want something that won't take a year to do, but parts will be readily available when something goes out.

From the support I've seen from Larken, that is the only driver for me.

Thanks all,
JAckal

[Larken]

Install this Lcam software that has a breakout board with it :
http://www.larkencnc.com/motion/lcamcust.htm

No,thats a old link for my old DOS controller. (I've got to take that off)

Go with Mach3 for sure.

[freak_brain]

I too have coverted a km3p using vipers and mach3. everything went pretty smooth with the exception of a couple of things.

1. The vipers at the time had a problem saving settings to bank 1. took me forever to figure that out. I thought I was doing something wrong.

2. The limit switches on the km3p are prox switches on X and Y axis. The switches and the servo wiring is all ran together sharing 5v. It was very confusing to me as I am not a electronics guy. What I did was pull all the wires out from the cabinet to those two servos and replaced the switches with mechanical switches and ran new wiring. Running all new wire for your servos is almost a must anyhow. I just couldn't get the prox switches to work.

Make sure you wire in the resistor for the encoders since they are single ended.

I left the power supply for the motors and the small power supply (on right side when opening computer cabinet) on the machine and used it for my retrofit.

I was actually thinking about starting a, wiring a km3p using vipers, thread for all to share their knowledge. Maybe I will do that if people are interested??

Take care
Allen

[Jackal66]

Thanks Allen,
I appreciate all of the info that I can get. What did you do with the variable speed on the spindle? Can you use the original speed drive motor to adjust the speed or did you go with a VFD?

Thanks for all of the good advice. A wiring thread would be very useful. There are a quite a few people that have Hurco's that are interested in retrofitting them but are a little scared, because of the lack of info on the specific machines.

I will contribute any info or schematics that I have.

JAckal

[freak_brain]

Jackal,

I am no wiring guru, thats for sure. I just kept looking and asking until I finally figured it all out.

As for the spindle motor. Simply put my machine is pretty job specific in what I do and didn't need all the motor adjustment as other might. I just isolated the three motors (coolant, spindle and rpm adjustment) and run them with my phase converter. the rest of the machine I run off single phase. it convient that way because I don't have to have my phase converter on when setting up. Any adjustments on rpm that I need I use the manual rpm changer on the front of the machine. I strickly mill aluminum using .062 to 1. endmills so it's pretty straight forward for me. I was planning on looking into using the variable speed controller that is on the machine but if memory serves me correctly there was a reason I couldn't.

some where I have the complete hurco wiring diagram which is helpful. Its a big file but if I find it I will send it to you if you want.

The cabinet with all the motor controller (left side when looking at machine from front) needs very little changing. So before you start I will explain how I wired it. Might save you some heart ache. I will set down after bit and think through all of it. It will be simple after you are finished and you look back, lol, isn't that always the case!!

As for tuning the vipers, piece of cake. I can give you all my settings. They will get you close if not dead on. Can also send you my mach3 settings file.

I will be in touch!!

take care
Allen

[Jackal66]

Thanks Allen,

That makes me feel better. I have access to all the schematics for my machine.

So basically you turn the spindle on M03 -code, and then turn the knob to increase or decrease the speed ( the same as on a regular variable speed manual mill)?

That left side cabinet is a little frightening, when thinking about gutting it. I would be wondering " Am I gonna re-use this?".

Also, the Viper tuning and MACH 3 settings would be great!!!!!!

It would get it close enough to run, and then fine tune only if needed.

It always helps to know that someone else has done this before.

I put a Chevy V-8 in a Jeep once. It wasn't that hard, but knowing a few others I could go look at if I had to, sure made me feel better.

What kind of encoders do you have on your machine?

Mine have Litton Brand. There isn't a lot of info out there on these. I saw where a German company purchased Litton.

If anything Al_THE_MAN will know about it. AL is GOOD!!!!


JAckal

[freak_brain]

Jackal

Yes, I turn my spindle on with a M3 then adjust rmp as needed with the switch on the front of the machine. Using the dial on the front to set rpm. I think there is something still on the table, I was thinking about trying, but I forget what it was. there is a prox switch on the spindle to give feedback to the computer for rpm. There was something i was going to try to get programmed rpm but I forget. I will have to visit that again!!

I wanted to clear one thing up so we are both on the same page. I refer to the cabinets as if I was in front of the machine facing it. So the right side is the cabinet with the computer and the left side is the power supplies/motor starters side.

I also have a "brain" or two for mach3. if you're not familiar with brains, it's basically a logic one writes that runs in the background. One sets up certain conditions and when they are met mach3 does "something". One of them I made is for the automatic oiler. Basically I set it up so when the spindle is running the brain has a timer running. At a set time the brain will activate a output to a 5V relay that turns the oiler on. then after a set amount of time it turns the oiler off and the brain cycle starts over again. That way your ways/spindle get oiled. I think I made another one for something but I'm not sure, I will have to look.

The right side cabinet will basically be cleaned out. Everything but the low voltage power supply and the power supply cleaner or filter thing below the board of relays. My left cabinet is exactly as it was the day I got it with the exception of some minor wiring changes. One example of this is that I changed the servo power supplies to run off single phase not 3 phase. i didn't want to have to worry about my phase converter causing my servos to do weird things. Do you run with a phase converter?

I'm going to try to figure out my new video camera tomorrow and hopefully post a video or two on here. I'll see how that goes in the morning.

Allen

[freak_brain]

By the way, I'll have a hard time sleeping now. That poor chevy motor!!