Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S


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    Default Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    Hi, I'm considering two machines as a possible next step up from my benchtop Intellitek 6x20 CNC. One is the ST-N and the bigger beastly brother AN-S and i went to look at them last week trying to make a decision

    My usage/purpose:
    I'm a hobbiest more intrigued by the CNC and stellar precision and robust machines than anything production. I'll probably use the machine for various odds and ends - maybe a dozen times a year.

    The other part as a hobbiest, of course, is the justification of what i'm spending for minimal use - but like to have it around when I need it. So would like to keep total investment under $2K, with the idea of updating from the bandit control (problematic - outdated) to Mach3/4 and Gecko drives, BOB - etc (like my Intellitek).

    The machines and initial inspection in unpowered states. These machines were running 6 weeks ago but seldom used - really not a machining company but they used them from time to time. So i perceive they had minimal use the last 20-25 yrs.

    The ST-N:


    2 key issues they mentioned - though they still used are:

    A) Maybe encoder error? Stated one of them occasionally jumped in the X or Y axis and would break a tool - sounded like it was a controller issue/encoder issue. Considering the ST-N is stepper think it may be this one.

    B) Plastic Gear? They said it made a knocking sound as it started up that was related to "a plastic gear" in it? And seemed to think it diminished at higher rpm (they weren't really positive on this!) but was the most prevalent at low rpm during rpm ramp. This i what their machine mechanic told them.

    Can anyone shed light on what this may be wrt a plastic gear causing this - big issue - not an issue, easy fix?

    I did read where the ST-N had a "weak" z axis mechanically and they would wear out and have axial play?

    AN-S

    Of course the AN-S with the massive 53x13" bed is appealing - super size it for my purposes, but comes at an intrepidating "heft" factor of 5300 lbs and some bulk for a 3 car garage. But compare this to the nimble ST-N at 3K lbs with 44x10" table and overall footprint for a 3car garage is less a factor.

    This machine looks is reasonable good shape from what i can see - of course can't inspect bearings, or axis backlash.

    Perhaps the heft factor of the AN-S really isn't that much an issue and it can be put on pipe rollers for moving or HD wheels and cradle to roll when i need to move it.

    Both machines can likely be had for $600 to $900 - i know some people say they are a boat anchor and should be free or they are paying you to take them away, but seems the next jump in cost is $5-10K+ for a CNC or any sort.

    Could i please get your thoughts and opinions on:
    1) Am i heading a decent path for a good machine for my purposes given the budget, and i know a little about the Mach3 conversion from a benchtop CNC?

    2) Between the ST-N and AN-S - given what we know - the better option to go with?

    3) None of these are attractive - heres why?

    4) If i must replace servo motors on the AN-S or ST-N to be compatible with the gecko drives - what size motor are these for replacement- I'm not looking for super high output sporty IMP rapids as my use is not production but a decent fit. What kind of oz/in should the motors have for this (1100 nema 34's? ).

    I do appreciate your thoughts and experiences, as you can imagine - its hard to grade w/o any practical experience in these bigger machines - but i've considered them for a few years while not seen other machines in the price range.

    Thx.

    Paul G

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20170928_143650627-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20170928_142516295-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20170928_143711658-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20170928_142506064-jpg  

    Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20170928_142538563-jpg  
    Last edited by Paul G; 10-01-2017 at 02:27 PM.


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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    I have an AN-S in my shop. A nice heavy machine, very accurate. Very well built. It came in as mechanically good condition, but with no installed electrical at all. It did come with SEM DC servo motors and Fenner drives in a box, but I don't think those were original equipment. Also a 24 tool changer. 4 HP spindle motor. The machine is on heavy rubber castors and can be moved by two people. Takes up the space of a small car

    Did a ground up build on the controls, including the CNC software. I just used the supplied motors and drives and adapted the controls to work with them. If the existing controls work on the machines you are looking at, then just run it until it breaks. The existing controls probably run on single phase, or can be easily converted to run on single phase. If I were going to update the controls and had a limited budget, then something around 1200 oz/in NEMA 34 steppers, run in open loop, would be my choice, I think those are compatible with Gecko drives. Assuming you have only 240 single phase power, a VFD, or a rotary phase converter would be needed to run the spindle motor.

    If the machines are mechanically OK, then it sounds like a reasonable deal.



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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    And a few pics of the ST-N.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20170928_142138752-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20170928_142239378-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20170928_142247844-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20170928_142341894-jpg  



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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    I have an AN-S in my shop. A nice heavy machine, very accurate. Very well built. It came in as mechanically good condition, but with no installed electrical at all. It did come with SEM DC servo motors and Fenner drives in a box, but I don't think those were original equipment. Also a 24 tool changer. 4 HP spindle motor. The machine is on heavy rubber castors and can be moved by two people. Takes up the space of a small car

    Did a ground up build on the controls, including the CNC software. I just used the supplied motors and drives and adapted the controls to work with them. If the existing controls work on the machines you are looking at, then just run it until it breaks. The existing controls probably run on single phase, or can be easily converted to run on single phase. If I were going to update the controls and had a limited budget, then something around 1200 oz/in NEMA 34 steppers, run in open loop, would be my choice, I think those are compatible with Gecko drives. Assuming you have only 240 single phase power, a VFD, or a rotary phase converter would be needed to run the spindle motor.

    If the machines are mechanically OK, then it sounds like a reasonable deal.
    Thanks Jim!!! Very good to know someone else thinks its not a bad route to go.

    Visually the AN-S looks better than i would expect for 30+ old machine - table has no scars really - it may have been painted before - but a class job it it was.

    I can't vouch for the backlash in screws or quill bearings condition - i think that's just the gamble i have to take.

    I'm kind of leaning towards the AN-S over the ST-N, i get the impression the AN-S is more robust on Z axis so maybe less to deal with mechanically.

    thx,

    Paul G.



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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    Ok Jim, I decided to go with the AN-S

    Also I stumbled accrossed your blog from the one you purchased - very helpful and gave me some ideas on moving it with a drop bed trailer.
    thx,

    Paul



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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    Congratulations Paul !

    If you have any questions I'll try to be of some help.



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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    Hi Jim,

    Can you lend any experience on how the mill slides off of the drop trailer. I found one - will check it out tomorrow to see if it will work. It is a United Rentals unit - and I believe has a 18" tail that goes to knife edge at teh tail.

    I guess i'm thinking use a come along to slide it out of the bed, using a brace off of the bed to hold the come along. What was it like sliding the mill in the bed of the trailer?

    Thx,

    Paul



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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    The AN-S came with wheels so it was really just a matter controlling the machine. Connected a come along to the mill column above the knee ways, back to the trailer tie down rings to keep it from tipping forward as it came down the ramp. Used the forklift pull it out and control the speed. Didn't get any pictures of the process or rigging.

    The wheels are attached to 4x4x3/8 steel angles that are attached to the base with 3/8 socket head cap screws as I recall. A bit lighter than I would have done it, but seems to work.



    Here is a picture of moving a 3500# Kent mill using the same trailer. When we loaded it with the forklift we put 2x6 skids on the base. Not so sure that was the best idea for trying to get it out of the trailer. Added quite a bit friction for sliding, had to use the reduction pulley on the come along. But we wanted to protect the floor where the mill was being off loaded. Metal to metal would have been a better choice for pulling it out. Again in this case we tied the top of the column back to the tie downs to control the forward tipping as the mill came down the ramp. The other end of the come along is attached to a bollard that is protecting the water heater in the garage. I normally use screw anchors drilled into the concrete when nothing else is available. The trailer ramp became flush with the floor when the weight was on it.



    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_0594-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_0664-jpg  


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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    Thanks Jim - very helpful!

    The wheels on the AN-S make it look "light" - are we sure that weighs 5300lbs! But i'm with you on a little more "overkill" Three wheels could have the total load -
    so 1500lbs / ea. But the wheels are completely a great idea, nothing like being able to move your 5K mill around the garage!

    Also the AN-S doesn't look so "beastly" large in that setting with wheels on it - changes the perspective!.

    Here's the United R. drop bed trailer. I believe rated for 9999GVWR - or 8K load. It is 6x12'. So 5K lbs over two axels for the AN-S . I wonder if these can really carry a dense load like a mill footprint at 8K lbs - or a 5K and 3K mill.

    Funny - how everything is simple - until you actually have to go do it, then the details come out!!!!!!

    Thx,

    Paul

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171003_074643753-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171003_074641278-jpg  


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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    Well, i made a last minute ditch to the ST-N of course due to the modetsly nimble 3000lbs vs. 5500 and the ease of converting the steppers.

    This mill does have a head noise - think it is the belt squeeking like mad, possibly and hopefully not the "alledged" plastic back gear - jury still out. But if i change tension on the belt, momentarily until the reeves drive retensions, the noise changes drastically - reduced. Could it be the belt gets to a condition of super stiction?

    Unloading was quite an adventure and laborious given the safety factor was KING. Pics below..... 1/4" clearance coming in to the garage and a laboriously tedious process of a come-along gently pulling off of a horizontal arch in static compression (could have been built more robust - but it was quick and stable). I found sliding it on 3/16" hardboard with melamine side up was ideal and significantly easier than on the metal plate or bare 1/4" plywood - until my little hardboard ended.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171006_135653043-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171007_151329959-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171008_175613232-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171008_172927133-jpg  

    Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171008_175345759-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171008_193617392-jpg  


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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    First order clean up prior to moving into the garage! Removed a few gallons of aluminum chips from this machine base. The last two owners were commercial glazing companies - lots of aluminum and apparently they like to make mounting brackets, not terribly precision parts for sure.

    Well like always its really tough to examine a mill in a confined area that is also loud - compared to when you get it home an begin an initial cleaning.

    Maybe leaving it grossly uncleaned is bliss - you never find all the imperfections.

    Well hopefully I can make a decent mill out of it worth of the Gecko retro cost and the effort.

    Granted this is a 1980 - 37yr old mill (at least according to a driver board tag in the Bandit).

    Some findings:

    1. Ball screws don't appear to have gross backlash in them judging by hand, we'll see when i get a dial indicator on the bed.
    "Y" is smooth a silk and silent
    "X' is smooth but appears a bit more friction and not completely silent but a uniform sound (keep in mind I have no prior machine of this heft to compare to! I did pull the spring guards back best i could an it appear there was light oil residue on the screw and didn't see any scoring - but that is really a touch inspection method
    "Z"-can't access that until i remove some parts or power it with a driver

    Knee "Y" way.
    [INDENT] - look relatively clean - some evidence of few small rust spots were spot removed previously.
    [INDENT] - one ding on it that i can see about an inch from the end - could remove high spot if there is one with a file i suppose.
    - It doens't appear the rubber protectors for the "Y" and knee vertical way have been on the machine for a while - not the best.
    -



    Bed:
    No cutting tool marks that i can find, but of course a lot of micro dings that ruin the pride it would like to have - but hey its a 37 yr old mill
    [INDENT] Oil in galley bolow the X screw, Not sure how this got there - perhaps its the one-shot that appears to work at face value. Any easy way to drain this. Incidently there is an allen plug on the non-motor end of the table that i thought was the drain - but not the case. Looked like it held a "pin" in or applied a pressue to a pin - though not sure what it may be fore it that is the case.

    Spindle:
    I haven't been able to move this yet, hopefully there is no scoring - jury still out.
    I can't feel any movement in it up, down , sideways.

    So after i recoup from the mill move for a few days - goal is to complete mechanical inspection an hopefully it fairs well enough to invest in the Gecko control upgrade.

    I'll inspect the axis ball screws condition by removing the steppers so i can turn the dials easily by hand (instead of training for the thumb wrestling olypmpics) put a dial indicator on them and see what backlash really is. Probably should have done this on the inspection!

    Spindle niose - any thoughts on that one, probably need to lower the spindle down - see what it looks like. Need to look at the noise source - hopefully it is the belt and not more - well hepfully the baaaaaaaaaelt isn't really $1000 (well guess i would be making a belt at that rate).

    Well lastly - im into this for about double the scrap rate of iron +plus my donated time that - well has certainly gained an education in this area.
    Fun journey now that moving stress is over.

    Any thoughs advice are certainly welcome.

    Thx,

    Paul

    P.S Private mail for how to embed pictures below the text - for better reading pleasure.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171007_121701298-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171007_121717312-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171007_151438434-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171007_122305950-jpg  

    Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171007_151248400-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171007_151226515-jpg  
    Last edited by Paul G; 10-11-2017 at 02:04 AM.


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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    Congratulations on your new addition. Moving machines is quite an adventure when you don't have heavy lifting equipment available.

    That's a nice looking machine, I'll be following your progress in getting it up and running.

    I just pulled in the driveway with my new toy. A Hardinge Conquest 42 CNC lathe w / live tooling.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    Any links to the Harding CNC - sounds pretty good.

    Tonight i checked ball screw backlash and on X and Y, less than 0.001" under table weight only no cutter load. I need a better metrology to get down to exactly how much it is - i'd say < 0.0005". But i'm really pleased about that

    As for the quill - manually moved it down after access to stepper motor- all shiny no wear marks, looks very good - very happy about that

    As for the horendous "squeek" on spindle rotation, surely it is the reeves drive belt, i put a paste wax on both sides of the cotact edge and it went completely silent (i'll just set up a one shot wax dispenser -LOL. Actually not sure if new belts are avail for these or even the size. At hand rotation speeds - all sounds very uniform.

    Hi / Low selector works fine - feels good. Same for the variable speed - while turning spindle can go all the way up and down - no issues.

    Next step will be to hook a phase converter - see what it does for knowledge. Then i beleive convert to PC based control and Gecko G-214 drives.

    Anyway - things are looking up - pretty sure this will turn out to be a nice mill in the end and nice solid peice or iron.

    Go Shiz!!!!



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    Link to my new machine New Toy, er Tool | The Hobby-Machinist

    Sounds like your machine is in pretty good shape. The only backlash we found in the AN-S was in the X axis, about 0.002. Adjusted the ball nuts and now is not measurable with anything I have here. The first test cut was a 4 inch OD circle with a 3 inch circular pocket, we took it over to an aerospace shop and had their QA guy check it with the CMM, max deviation was < 2 microns. I would expect your machine to be about the same depending on your controls.

    New belts should be available, try Vbelt Supply V-Belt Global Supply, LLC. | V-Belt Online Catalog | www.VBeltSupply.com

    They seem to be really nice solid machines. I still have the AN-S sitting in my shop so I think I going to put it to work.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    Hey Jim,

    I have some noise and rough spots when turning the X-axis by hand. I removed the stepper motors for inspection and deep cleaning and noticed this.

    I bet this is the same construction as big brother AN-S, so was ondering if you have a parts manual or pictures of the bed when you took yours apart?

    I need to figure out how to get this apart to look at it (thrust bearings, screw, ball nut and lube system for ball nut. Eventually i'll figure it out but a parts view could make things more straight forward.

    I've scoured the web and come up dry for a manual - though their was a "wallace" that looks like he bought a nice ST-N and went thru it completely - i'll try and contact him also.

    Thx,

    Paul



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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    I don't have any pictures of the guts of the table.

    But from memory:

    The bearing on the left side is floating

    The thrust bearing is on the right side

    Move the table to the left to expose the ball nut

    We supported the table with a floor jack and some blocks when we moved it to expose the ball nut. We did not completely move the table off of the machine.

    As I recall we had to replace an oiler and line for the X lead screw

    The ball nut preload is set with shims, we made a modification to be able to adjust it with set screws.

    We added the 4 set screws between the securing screws You'll see how it works when you get it apart. I set the preload by feel on the bench.

    Here is a picture of that.


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_0463-jpg  
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    Thanks Jim - nice photo.

    I have pulled the ends off, found the culprit of the "gravel in bearing" was in fact the outer thrust bearing on the X-axis. Bearing race was well spalled. So will be replacing that. I believe the screw nut is adjusted well (if it has never been adjsuted that would be great as there was <0.0005 backlash total.

    Tomorrow i'll clean the screw while supported on the ends, and lube it, run it back and forth and look for where the oiler may provide lube to teh screw or nut - I'd like to know this is working. From there i think i'm out of the woods, just need to order a few thrust bearings then can get to puttin this back together - well i think the y - axis feels smooth, probably just need to do a major clean up on the need and knee vertical screw, then can put it back together and move towards the control conversion.

    As you can see the outer thrust races are spalled pretty good. I hope these are the sacrificial parts of the mill and the others aren't as worn.

    thx,

    Paul

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171110_113404785-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171110_203910767-jpg  


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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    Hey Jim,

    Looks like the ball screw nut on yours is a bit different than mine. It's also not obvious that there are any oil lines going to the screw or the nut.

    Do you recall the oil lines to the nut or screw being obvious or visible?

    Thx,

    Paul

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171127_123537765-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171127_123359928-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171125_084054582-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171125_084158209-jpg  

    Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171125_084142055-jpg   Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S-img_20171125_084137085-jpg  
    Last edited by Paul G; 11-28-2017 at 01:07 AM.


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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    Well that's interesting. Do I see a bit of a gap between the left nut and the housing? Maybe shimmed for preload?

    I don't see any oil lines either. As I recall there was a line that was just floating above the screw just to the right of the nut. In my case it had broken off and was laying in the bottom. Anything to get some oil on the screw.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


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    Default Re: Looking at Shizuoka ST-N or AN-S

    I've got an AN-SB which is a "square head" version of the AN-S without the varispeed belt drive (uses a variable speed motor and fixed ratio belt drive instead). I got a manual / parts list with the machine for an AN-S. That was a bit annoying, as it's not the right one for my exact machine.

    I've now had almost the entire machine apart now and it's pretty much identical to the AN-S with the exception of the belt drive. So I can probably tell you how to rebuild an AN-S. If the ST-N is very similar (which seems likely), you may find the manual useful.

    I scanned the manuals and they are accessible on Matt Wortley's site at https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/f...lpOMnNuYkFaNjQ but if you are looking for better detail I could rescan for you.

    I also have a blog showing some of the refurb I did. Some of the earlier stuff like changing the spindle and ballscrew bearings happened before I started the blog. It's at www.murraye.com

    My machine had brushed servos which I retained. I fitted some modern DC servo drives and a modern Yaskawa VFD. The controller is a Chinese 4-axis product from Newkye / Newker (China) which cost about $500 and works well once you figure out the Chinglish manual. It runs modern adaptive toolpaths very nicely and shifts some swarf! I've put a few videos on Youtube.

    Hope this helps if you see it.

    Murray



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