Help Metalworking CNC table up to 6 axis

[Neptunus]

Beloved Machinist,
It is a great honour and a privilege for me to join this great community, it is also a joy and a excitement for me to be a link, a part for this great and proud chain that drives us human into the future and beyond our today's comprehension of invention, and forging a new tomorrow for humanity. As a new member i would like to express my sincere gratitude to those who are titens and giants in Machinery, a elite force that are student s themselves, indeed we all are students in this life, and we learn from our misstakes with time.
ladies and gentlemens God's Peace and Blessings be with you all, and i hope you all are both doing healthy and wealthy wherever in the world you are. And please dont forget that every child that is born with a specific gift is thanks to our beautiful and wonderful females who gives born to our civilizations around this beautiful green globe, they are worth their weight in purest gold.
So long story short, i am studing CNC and Lathe machines. as a young student i have thought alot about getting my own metal processing CNC machine here at home, so i can practice when i am not in my educational center, there i go to get my cnc certificate and machinery certification.
So i come to you for a advice and feedback for metalworking CNC table up to 6 axis with stopper/Channel for cooling and cutting liquid. i thought something like VMC.
I looking to buy aluminium frame with 80mm Clamp External size of the machin: 1400 X 1400 X 800mm, Workspace size: 990X 990X 500mm.
Already have 6pcs of 600oz in Dual Shaft Steppers here at home, are those to overkill?
Since i dont know much about the right frame i am asking you for some feedback and help on this build. since i am doing metalworking, that is very important, It must hold and stand for cutting, drilling and milling trough soild stainless steel. what are this CNC 6090, CNC 6040 and so on.
Can we already talk about a price tag for a table for 1400 X 1400 X 800mm machine size with Workspace size: 990X 990X 500mm with aluminium sheet cover plates for this build?
I have posted some pictures of visual look of the VMC build, I have never done something so wicked, that is why i have turned to you.
Sincerly:
Neptunus

Similar Threads:

• Tons of cool CNC stuff in trade for rotary table or other metalworking stuff!!
• DIY 6-axis CNC for metalworking - where to start?
• Tormach PCNC 1100 Fourth Axis Table as a C Axis
• Using X axis table moter for knee X axis
• 5 axis metalworking cnc

[awerby]

Peace and blessings to you as well, Neptunus! I hope you can learn about this stuff without making too many costly mistakes. An aluminum-frame machine will be able to cut materials up to and including aluminum, if it's constructed well, but won't be able to do a very good job on steel, especially stainless, which is harder to work. The Chinese machines you're looking at (6090, 6040 etc.) are routers suitable for softer materials. For cutting steel with all but the smallest cutters, you need a spindle which is considerably slower, but which has a lot more torque than the one shown on the machine you have linked to.

If you aren't familiar with 3-axis machining yet, I'd suggest mastering that first, and adding axes as you need them. If you're in school still, get access to any machines that the school has available to students, and do some projects with them. While I'm not familiar with the machinery market in Sweden, it's not likely that new six-axis mills are any cheaper there than in the USA. But it is possible (here at least) to find older machines with good heavy cast-iron frames that are obsolete due to their broken or out-dated controllers, which manufacturers will sell for around their value as scrap, just to get the space back which they occupy. Unless you've just sold your mother for her weight in purest gold (and she was on the hefty side) I'd urge you to look for one of these instead, and figure out how to retrofit it with a modern control system. This will get you closer to your goal of machining steel and other hard metals in your own shop than wasting money on a Chinese router. Your 600 oz-in steppers will likely be underkill; machines like that usually are run with bigger servo motors, geared down with a timing belt. Used mills usually have motors that will work already installed; you just have to work out a way of driving them. Taking some classes in motion control theory will help with this.

[Neptunus]

Peace and blessings to you as well, Neptunus! I hope you can learn about this stuff without making too many costly mistakes. An aluminum-frame machine will be able to cut materials up to and including aluminum, if it's constructed well, but won't be able to do a very good job on steel, especially stainless, which is harder to work. The Chinese machines you're looking at (6090, 6040 etc.) are routers suitable for softer materials. For cutting steel with all but the smallest cutters, you need a spindle which is considerably slower, but which has a lot more torque than the one shown on the machine you have linked to.

If you aren't familiar with 3-axis machining yet, I'd suggest mastering that first, and adding axes as you need them. If you're in school still, get access to any machines that the school has available to students, and do some projects with them. While I'm not familiar with the machinery market in Sweden, it's not likely that new six-axis mills are any cheaper there than in the USA. But it is possible (here at least) to find older machines with good heavy cast-iron frames that are obsolete due to their broken or out-dated controllers, which manufacturers will sell for around their value as scrap, just to get the space back which they occupy. Unless you've just sold your mother for her weight in purest gold (and she was on the hefty side) I'd urge you to look for one of these instead, and figure out how to retrofit it with a modern control system. This will get you closer to your goal of machining steel and other hard metals in your own shop than wasting money on a Chinese router. Your 600 oz-in steppers will likely be underkill; machines like that usually are run with bigger servo motors, geared down with a timing belt. Used mills usually have motors that will work already installed; you just have to work out a way of driving them. Taking some classes in motion control theory will help with this.

Beloved awerby,
Thank you for your replay, it was very educational.
Please Sir/Ma'm, i am not trying to be disrespectful or sarcastic to you at all,
I am running a part time small business, and do few shafts and Shift Gear knobs for few ppl around my province with my lathe machine.
There i go to get educated in CNC, we use a Haas VMC, i fell in love with it and wanted one here at my workshop, LoL i am so sorry, it bad genes so i cant controll my self.
If you ask me: Are you gona be a Machinist and work in a workshop after i am done? i say: Yes.
My workshop is very small and i can't get a old heavy cnc machine to fit in there, either the roof will fall or the floor, thats why i hade hopes that something strong and something small will be out there. please if you know any site that sellsany good CNC's and shipping worldwide, let me know.
So i have saved up some money (6000 U$D), i am taking your advice and i am thinking of getting a good 3 axis metal prossesing cnc that i can upgrade later with time.
I dont have any knowledge of which and what parts are needed to build one my self, so i though maybe you guys could give me some feedback what to get, where to get and which to get.
I tho alot about getting this one https://shop.koneita.com/en/metallin...yrsinkone.html and upgrade it with time to more advance with time, but is it worth my time and my money?
Will i be better of if i buy parts to build one my self (More educational and fun but calibrating will be painfull) or should i ask a person to give me build plans so i can get the Metal parts and ask the welder in my education center with IW (International Welder) to weld the parts for me and i pring it home and build it up part for part and thrown this part in Gecko 6 Axis Chassis (3 G251x's) 48v 12.5a & 3 Nema 23 300oz in 3.5A Motors | eBay do you refer something better?
The images here with this replay, i dont own them, all the credit for the build goes to the rightful owner that is a member of cnczone.com, and this person is not me.

[awerby]

That machine you're linking to on the Koneita site is a Chinese-made manual mill (also called a RongFu 45). People have converted them to CNC, but it takes some work, notably in replacing the quill drive, leadscrews and spindle gears. You're better off starting with something originally intended as a CNC mill, which will have ball screws on all axes, motor mounts (if not motors) and a proper spindle. The DRO is an expensive feature that does you no good in CNC mode, since the control software will have a similar display without it.

If you're looking for a good miniature mill that won't fall through your floor, take a look at the Taig mills I sell. They're only good for making relatively small parts, but they can cut steel, and I do ship them worldwide. Taig makes a nice little lathe as well, which is available in CNC versions as well as manual.

People here have made some fairly heavy-duty machines from scratch, using welded-up frames or epoxy-concrete castings. It seems like you've found some examples. If you don't want to make a very large machine and have access to the necessary equipment (or an experienced welder who owes you a big favor), that's a viable way to go, but it takes a lot more work than simply replacing the control system on an existing CNC machine. Welding always warps steel parts to some extent, so you should count on some grinding after welding to restore flatness.

[Neptunus]

Mr. Werby i assume,
How powerful and how much torque doas Spindle need for Heavy Duty Metalworking for cut through hard steel or stainless steel? 3,5KW +?
You sell this CNC Mills on a website called Taig Tools - Desktop Milling Machines and Lathes. ? do you have any pdf manual for the Taig CNC mills that you just recommended me?
And they have a EU power cord and can handle 220v @ 50Hz?

My dad says hi by the way `=)

[hanermo]

I have made something like You aim for ..
at a current-value of about 100k€ in tooling.

Suggest You (greatly) recalibrate your expectations.

Examples.
The bigger the work-envelope, the bigger the screws need to be.
A 1600 mm wide table, like mine, needs the same-size screw as a VMC with 1600 mm table. I use 32 mm.

Likewise, it then needs size 35 mm blocks, I used 12 on the z axis alone.

Likewise, it then needs rigidity, I use 20-30 mm thick tool steel sections, in large section sizes, about 240x200 mm for the spindle holder.
400x200 mm for the double columns, one at each end.
All 20 mm thick steel frames.

So it is now heavy, about 2400 kg, in steel.
This is still "light" vs a typical C-frame VMC like the HAAS VF6 with a similar 1m+ bed size.

But the C-frame is inherently 8x less rigid than a double-column mill.

Now it needs a spindle.
An ISO30-BT spindle, with integral drawbar- so You can have a toolchanger.

The needed mass and power and component size goes up by third power of work envelope size.
This means bigger everything .. easier in many ways but very much more expensive.

I suggest looking at the ZX45 size mills as kits.. to start with.

If You look at any metalworking CNC mills built, of any size beyond the ZX45 .. they typically use very heavy 20-25 mm thick steel weldments.
So did a very simple, pretty good, commercial-CNC machine = VMC, for 10+ years.

Brand was FADAL, in the USA, tens of thousands made, many with steel components.
Some were cast, some not.
A lot are still running in commercial use.

If You want to have a work envelope similar to a large fadal, You need similar components.
Plenty of pics and data online, fadal manuals online for free.

From my own experience, it is pretty expensive and a *lot* of work to get a large VMC running.

[Neptunus]

Calma hermano,
Que pasa con usted, Perdon, hablemos ingles para que todos entiendan, no quiero ser grosero.
Hello Hanermo welcome and thank you for joining this Thread.
Mr Werby offred a wonderful solution to my problem, i quote "If you're looking for a good miniature mill that won't fall through your floor, take a look at the Taig mills I sell. They're only good for making relatively small parts, but they can cut steel, and I do ship them worldwide. Taig makes a nice little lathe as well, which is available in CNC versions as well as manual.", As a customer and seller, both have obligations and thiers rights when a deal is made between them, and s a customer, I have the right to know what I purchasing
And i thought that was a wonderful idea, so small and and so easy to understand, so i was looking around youtube and saw this

So my mind played with me and i thought about i can change the motor i the future and experiment with this little baby. i asked him few question in my previous replay to find out what i am buying from him. so my question is where have you got all this " at a current-value of about 100k€ in tooling".
Por favor, i dont need that way of replay.

[hanermo]

? Where !
IN YOUR OWN original post, thats where.

You Yourself said YOU want to have 550 mm work height etc.

I tried to explain why it is not hard but expensive..,
what the component cost drivers are .. and why,
what such large-work-envelope machines need to work,
and pointed to an example of which tens of thousands where made, pretty much as I pointed out.

And of which You can find endless pics, specs, components online searching for Fadal related stuff.

A 1.6 M table VMC can make about moped sized parts, with 500 mm vertical movement.
A sherline makes larger format book sized parts.
A taig makes about small book sized parts.
The difference is about 10.000 : 1.

E.g.
IF the difference is 5 cm to 50 cm in practice, thats 10:1.
On x,y,z thats 10.000 : 1.

Hope this helps.

...
is where have you got all this " at a current-value of about 100k€ in tooling".
Por favor, i dont need that way of replay.
[/FONT]

[awerby]

Mr. Werby i assume,
How powerful and how much torque doas Spindle need for Heavy Duty Metalworking for cut through hard steel or stainless steel? 3,5KW +?

[That depends on how big a tool you use, and how hard you push it. With a Taig, since it's a small machine, you can't take as heavy a cut with as large a tool as as that Haas mill you were using. But the spindle on a Taig is able to cut steel pretty effectively with its stock motor and a 1/8" 4-flute cutter. Hardened and stainless steels are special cases; depending on the hardness and the particular alloy, machining them can work okay, or not at all.]
You sell this CNC Mills on a website called Taig Tools - Desktop Milling Machines and Lathes. ? do you have any pdf manual for the Taig CNC mills that you just recommended me?

[That's not my site, it's the manufacturer's; mine is at computersculpture.com . I don't have a manual in PDF form; sorry.]

And they have a EU power cord and can handle 220v @ 50Hz?

My dad says hi by the way `=)

Hi back at him! For users in Europe, I generally sell these mills without the spindle motor; this saves on shipment cost and allows customers to use a motor that's suited to their local electricity.

[Neptunus]

Mr, Werby,
Which model do you recommend for me there is a few, how much for the mill + the shipping to Sweden?, i need the biggest the baddest the best that can do work in 2 ½ inch steel, yeah right about the spindle.
Which will fit my needs?
He is my adoptive father and he is an american, his name is John David Grabill.

[Neptunus]

Tranquilo Amigo,
Sometimes i fly over my head sometimes, since i was programmed like that from my childhood, My father was a great man and high skilled businessman, as a child, everytime i wanted money to buy something, most of the times he said no. He said: My son, if you cant get it, you can build it!
It was not because we dident afford to buy it, he wanted me to start to use my head and see how things ware build. it was his way of programming me as a child to find out how to come up with ideas of making things.
this "External size of the machin: 1400 X 1400 X 800mm, Workspace size: 990X 990X 500mm." i went on a field of something i did not have any knowlege of that is why i come here, so i could learn a thing or two.
To not lose alot of money, I was thinking: Insteed of buying something out there, mybe there is a way around it a (Bypass) if you want to call it.
May i ask you Hermano, what do you suggest for me? if i am not wrong you own a CNC mill?

[hanermo]

Hello Neptunus.

Very nice post. Imho.
You had ideas originally, kind of "wants" .. and You have seen in several ways how and why practical "can-haves" are different // budget.

I do not have advice as such.
Those who buy VMCs like the HAAS You referred to, or I referred to, do so for money in commercial use.

I believe there is no "right" path.
Many of my customers buying commercial 50k€+ haas machines used to use tiny minilathe-type stuff in the past .. and still made great money/business with them in the past- until they outgrew them.

I tried to advise on technicals and fundamentals.
The most profitable path is usually products.

*What* exactly do You want to make.
Material (steel vs alu/wood), qty/week, margin / unit, gross $ / unit.
The stuff YOU need to or want to make defines everything.

I had many customers, whom I no-quoted.
Some for lots and lots of money, like 400k€ now and 3M€ tomorrow .. no quote.
Most because they wanted "a" for less than cost of "b".
This was mostly high volume appropriate for stamping, not machining. For example.

So I refused to sell machines and tooling, for 400k€++, because we felt it would not work.

SO..
You define YOUR needs.
Size, qty, volume.
ANY cnc system will make any piece.

But a taig or sherline can never ever be profitable ... specifically on larger-volume stuff with lower margins for example.
It is a complex but not hard 7 dimensional problem.
The *exact data* is critical.

Many people make (some) money with taig/sherline stuff, and many make exceptional work.
I never ever put them down.

You seem to have exceptional spanish skills .. well done.

As a Finn living in Spain I can appreciate it.
Parla tu catalan tamben ..
Parlez-vous français ..
Sorry,
"ya no talar svenska..." after 26+ years without contact (and no schooling in it).

Tranquilo Amigo,
Sometimes i fly over my head sometimes, since i was programmed like that from my childhood, My father was a great man and high skilled businessman, as a child, everytime i wanted money to buy something, most of the times he said no. He said: My son, if you cant get it, you can build it!
It was not because we dident afford to buy it, he wanted me to start to use my head and see how things ware build. it was his way of programming me as a child to find out how to come up with ideas of making things.
this "External size of the machin: 1400 X 1400 X 800mm, Workspace size: 990X 990X 500mm." i went on a field of something i did not have any knowlege of that is why i come here, so i could learn a thing or two.
To not lose a lot of money, I was thinking: Insteed of buying something out there, mybe there is a way around it a (Bypass) if you want to call it.

May i ask you Hermano, what do you suggest for me? if i am not wrong you own a CNC mill?

[awerby]

Mr, Werby,
Which model do you recommend for me there is a few, how much for the mill + the shipping to Sweden?, i need the biggest the baddest the best that can do work in 2 ½ inch steel, yeah right about the spindle.
Which will fit my needs?
He is my adoptive father and he is an american, his name is John David Grabill.

Email me outside the forum for a quote; I'll need to get your address for estimating the shipping cost. 2.5 inches isn't a problem; we can discuss your other needs. While Taig doesn't offer a mill with 6 axes, 4 is enough to do quite a lot. Although these small mills perhaps won't spit out parts as fast as Hanermo's expensive commercial machines, it's quite possible to use them as part of a profitable business, while it's also possible to go bankrupt paying off costly equipment if the cash isn't flowing in as fast as it flows out.

[Neptunus]

Hola Hanermo,
I want to have a metal mold processing CNC, i have been offred by a local company to buy a 2:hand cheap Mold Spindle Motor 3Kw 4Hp For Metal Usg N for 710U$D, and that is just the spindle.
And the gentleman i was speaking with over the phone, he assured me that this spindle was specialized in metal mold processing for milling/cutting hard metal and stone,such as Aluminum, Copper, iron and steel etc.
Okey lets say that i have got the spindle i need, now i need right materials for build the Z,Y and X axis, can you give me some feedback and share your opinion and price on that please.
My idea is processing mold and objects in matrials that is 300-400 X 150-250 X 200-400 mm length width height.