Chinese CNC-machines, crap or good?

[PeterBKK]

I'm a mechanical designer and I'm thinking about opening a machine shop and hire some skilled CNC-operators. It might be a crazy idea, but I'm living in Thailand and the salaries are quite low. I don't know much about CNC-machines (had a few manual machines 20 years ago though)

My idea is to buy a few CNC-milling, lathe and wire-EDM machines from china as the prices seems to be really good, but I'm worried about the quality of Chinese made machines and I don't know what brand to buy.

The tolerances of my parts are never tighter than ±0,010mm, most of the time between ±0.100-0.050mm except for shafts and holes so it would be good if the milling machine could make holes with H7-tolerance or better without any special tools. As I can see, the Positioning accuracy is everything between ±0.001mm and ±0.020mm, And repeat position accuracy ±0.003 and ±0.030mm

What brand to buy?
Should I buy the machines with "standard controller" or go for a LinuxCNC / PathPilot solution? Pros and Cons?
Any good Chinese tool brand out there that can be ordered online?
Can one trust the accuracy stated by the manufacturer?

Thanks for you help

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[kdoney]

It depends on how much you have to spend. Even in China there are differences in quality based on price.

[PeterBKK]

It depends on how much you have to spend. Even in China there are differences in quality based on price.

$25-30,000 for 2 VMC
$8-10,000 for a lathe
$5-6,000 for a Wire-EDM

About $50,000 all in all with shipping and taxes.

[hanermo]

I sold about 65 machines for similar use, after looking at 200 cases myself, so ..

Your machinery budgets are realistic, more or less right.
You really, really really need to budget;
You need to go there, before final-payment for the machines.
You need to measure actual performance for that factorys machines.
Yourself, or someone experienced.

Linear error, tir, repeatability, tir of interpolated hole.
Surface finish for what You expect to make.

But much more important.
Vastly more important.
Critical.
You need to have numerics, on your business plan, on what, why, how, how much $, You want to make.

Will You need to measure Your parts to make sure they are right ?
5-25.000 $.
Gage pins.
Surface plates.
Mics and calipers.

You need tools for the machines.
15-45.000 $ for 4.

A VMC has 24 toolholders.
ISO30 toolholder, 40$, tool, 40$, ER collet, 5$, inserts, 40-200$. Avg 250$ / tool x 24.
6000 $ per VMC very low end.
2000 $ for other tools like drills, reamers.
So, 12-16.000 $ cheapest possible tooling on VMC alone.

A VMC works in steel.

So you need chip conveyors, drums, pallets, pallet stacker (3000$ second hand), racking (3-20k$).
Coolants. Storage.
Auto saw. 3-6 k $.
Deburring, industrial linisher (3-6k$), tumbler(s), bags, tags, labelling.
Sw.
CAM.
Postprocessors.
Billing.


What You really need is a manufacturing pro to advise You.
Someone with experience in Thailand, 3rd world countries (grew up there) or Spanish countries (live in Bcn Spain, business and life in Mexico etc), china experience (been doing it 20+ years).
Try to find someone local, who has 10+ year experience in machinery, cnc manufacturing, shipping, international trade, logistics.
Pay them very well, 60-80% +/- on comission on results.

You have huge risks of 100k$ +/- on buying stuff piecemeal, and 100-200k$+ per year on extra piecework costs based on lack of efficiency, first 3 years.

It will be totally impossible for You to get fast, cheap and good, at first, on Your own.
Because You cannot do everything, know everything, and be faster and better than Your competition, without major industrial experience.

[A_Camera]

So you want to start a business in an area you're not familiar with using machines you don't know anything about producing products you can't imagine how to make, using cheap labour, selling the products to customers you don't have and probably don't know where to find, for a price you can't calculate because of the above...

Well, good luck. We all have dreams...

[PeterBKK]

So you want to start a business in an area you're not familiar with using machines you don't know anything about producing products you can't imagine how to make, using cheap labour, selling the products to customers you don't have and probably don't know where to find, for a price you can't calculate because of the above...

Well, good luck. We all have dreams...

Hehe, you seems to be a very sympathetic dude :-D With this negative attitude you will get nowhere in life or business. I don't dream, dreams doesn't pay any bills.

You are wrong in your perception as well.

• I ran a works shop before with manual machines in Stockholm 20 years ago (Jo, jag är Svensk),
• I have designed and built numerous of machines and consumer products for over 27 years as a freelancer, in different countries as Sweden, Germany, China and Thailand.
• Me my self will be the main customer as I'm buying parts for about $100-150K per year as it is today.
• I can afford risking a fail if that would be happening. I have done much stupider businesses in the past, and a few have been quite lucrative as well.
• I will not run the shop myself, I will hire a shop manager who probably have the required experience and knowledge.

[A_Camera]

Hehe, you seems to be a very sympathetic dude :-D With this negative attitude you will get nowhere in life or business. I don't dream, dreams doesn't pay any bills.

You are wrong in your perception as well.

• I ran a works shop before with manual machines in Stockholm 20 years ago (Jo, jag är Svensk),
• I have designed and built numerous of machines and consumer products for over 27 years as a freelancer, in different countries as Sweden, Germany, China and Thailand.
• Me my self will be the main customer as I'm buying parts for about $100-150K per year as it is today.
• I can afford risking a fail if that would be happening. I have done much stupider businesses in the past, and a few have been quite lucrative as well.
• I will not run the shop myself, I will hire a shop manager who probably have the required experience and knowledge.

Dude, that's not a negative attitude at all, it's the picture you are painting of yourself here. I couldn't care less if you claim to be a Swede or not, your idea sound even more crazy now than before.

So, you will buy your own products, the products you are paying for to be made by people who you will pay salary for to make those products... sounds like a good idea. Your business will last a long time... or maybe not...

Good luck.

[PeterBKK]

I sold about 65 machines for similar use, after looking at 200 cases myself, so ..

Your machinery budgets are realistic, more or less right.
You really, really really need to budget;
You need to go there, before final-payment for the machines.
You need to measure actual performance for that factorys machines.
Yourself, or someone experienced.

Linear error, tir, repeatability, tir of interpolated hole.
Surface finish for what You expect to make.

But much more important.
Vastly more important.
Critical.
You need to have numerics, on your business plan, on what, why, how, how much $, You want to make.

Will You need to measure Your parts to make sure they are right ?
5-25.000 $.
Gage pins.
Surface plates.
Mics and calipers.

You need tools for the machines.
15-45.000 $ for 4.

A VMC has 24 toolholders.
ISO30 toolholder, 40$, tool, 40$, ER collet, 5$, inserts, 40-200$. Avg 250$ / tool x 24.
6000 $ per VMC very low end.
2000 $ for other tools like drills, reamers.
So, 12-16.000 $ cheapest possible tooling on VMC alone.

A VMC works in steel.

So you need chip conveyors, drums, pallets, pallet stacker (3000$ second hand), racking (3-20k$).
Coolants. Storage.
Auto saw. 3-6 k $.
Deburring, industrial linisher (3-6k$), tumbler(s), bags, tags, labelling.
Sw.
CAM.
Postprocessors.
Billing.


What You really need is a manufacturing pro to advise You.
Someone with experience in Thailand, 3rd world countries (grew up there) or Spanish countries (live in Bcn Spain, business and life in Mexico etc), china experience (been doing it 20+ years).
Try to find someone local, who has 10+ year experience in machinery, cnc manufacturing, shipping, international trade, logistics.
Pay them very well, 60-80% +/- on comission on results.

You have huge risks of 100k$ +/- on buying stuff piecemeal, and 100-200k$+ per year on extra piecework costs based on lack of efficiency, first 3 years.

It will be totally impossible for You to get fast, cheap and good, at first, on Your own.
Because You cannot do everything, know everything, and be faster and better than Your competition, without major industrial experience.

Thanks Hanermo for your long reply,

Yes, I will try to hire some real expert on the area. But I had hope to get some suggestions here of reliable machine producers in China first for my future planing.

I will not run the shop myself, I will hire a shop manager who probably will have the required experience and knowledge and also be able to manage the Thai-staff.

I currently have a CMM and a Faro Gage measurement arm but, yes, there are still some items that needs to be purchased for the QC.

As for tools, I would have expected tools for around $20K initially as we probably don't need everything to start with, as I will be the main customer to start with as I'm currently buying parts for about $100-150K per year from other workshops.

Yes, a Saw is needed and a surface grinder as well and maybe a few more smaller tools/machines later on.

[PeterBKK]

Dude, that's not a negative attitude at all, it's the picture you are painting of yourself here. I couldn't care less if you claim to be a Swede or not, your idea sound even more crazy now than before.

So, you will buy your own products, the products you are paying for to be made by people who you will pay salary for to make those products... sounds like a good idea. Your business will last a long time... or maybe not...

Good luck.

Yes, I will order my current parts from my own company rather then buying them from someone else.

Why are you pestering my thread when you have nothing to say? Get a life dude

[frank131313]

Hello Peter ... what i suggest you its this ... Go in Jinan, Shandong province... ,from Bangkok its about 4h passing by Beijing, its the CNC place ... go there and visit some cnc factory's , the reason why i tell you this is simple ...China is really a different world , i don't know if you have experience dealing with chineses ... i have somes contacts there who can help you in your approaches... I am Canadian but since 2005 i do business in China ... i have do business with many Asian country ( including Thailand ) and the most difficult country to do business with is China ... to be able to obtain what you ''really want'' the most important step is finding the factory you are matching with ... and for this , go, take a look and more important ... don't rush yourself ...

[PeterBKK]

Hello Peter ... what i suggest you its this ... Go in Jinan, Shandong province... ,from Bangkok its about 4h passing by Beijing, its the CNC place ... go there and visit some cnc factory's , the reason why i tell you this is simple ...China is really a different world , i don't know if you have experience dealing with chineses ... i have somes contacts there who can help you in your approaches... I am Canadian but since 2005 i do business in China ... i have do business with many Asian country ( including Thailand ) and the most difficult country to do business with is China ... to be able to obtain what you ''really want'' the most important step is finding the factory you are matching with ... and for this , go, take a look and more important ... don't rush yourself ...

Hi Frank,

Good, is Jinan, Shandong some kind of CNC-mecka in China? I will surly put that place on my visit list when heading over there next time.

I did worked in Dongguan and Guangzhou between 2012-2015, building a production line which I had designed for a company in Thailand, and I know how difficult it can be to deal with these people. Sadly though, I never came in contact with any CNC-specialist over there. And my team leader over there doesn't know any CNC-expert as well.

I'm surprised to see that there is almost nothing written about Chinese CNC-machines except for routers, on internet. No one is writing about their Chinese CNC-purchases, at least not in any of the languages I am comfortable with.

There is one thread here that just bought one, but he hasn't installed and tested it yet. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/uncate...ach-posts.html

[hanermo]

Peter .. don´t sweat it.
"Buyers agent" is what You want.
Any nr available online, cheap, perhaps 200$ a day.

Hire on online, get HIM to book You say 10 factory visits.
Get the factory to supply tools and bits, as a package.
Buy *everything* through the factory, in one shipment.

Make sure you are there, and all your tools are there, and You see them work in your machine.
This will ensure no technical glitches.

The 20K will be enough, most especially since you have a CMM.

Most jobshops were started by guys like You, and about 1/3 make it.
Since You have a customer, yourself, you are probably 90% there already.

[frank131313]

Correct ! you hit the nail on the head ... first step visiting the factory ... its the most important ... hiring someone online for visiting at my place was my first mistake when i start in 2005 but as often i say:''time change'' ...what is true these process is difficult to do without any outside help , i don't say :''impossible'' but difficult...

[victorofga]

mightbe im not right
a wireedm
even a used can cost 50K or over
the price you plan to spending.. your only option a Chinese..

25-30 K for 2 vmc I think you opting out again only Chinese

for a lathe mightbe works pending on what kind you choose
some lathe has milling attachment and they quite expenses..

making H7 tolerance with a milling machine with endmill.. hardly can imagine

mightbe a boring head..

I think you only option to choose a couple of factory and go personally there to talk with them..

and beyond machines, you can spend another thoushands on tooling and measuring ..

in my opinion, focus on a vmc and on a wireedm

and after they are running and really producing money still you have time to go out for another equipment..

with wireedm you can make tools for presses.. that they cutting contours of roll material..

and similar works what milling machine can not do already

example shot trough a hardened plate and with wire you cut the shape without any roughing..
plus column holes threads too..

[zszabo]

Hi,

Here is my story:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/chines...866-forum.html

- - - Updated - - -

Hi,

Here is my story:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/chinese-machines/204866-forum.html