Skyfire CNC owners?

[Mmpie]

Looking for a bit of feedback from the SVM2 VMC. How is it in terms of set up and daily use? Need lots of tweaking/aligning upon taking delivery, and constant altering? Wiring good? Everything earthed safely? Chip tray and coolant work well and easy to keep clean?

We are not trained machinists. We have a product idea that has a few simple aluminium parts and are at a stage where we are ready to look at manufacturing it. Our CNC router made them for our prototypes easily enough but it's far too time consuming and cumbersome to even think about using it for production, outsourcing is too expensive and unpredictable. We are looking for something that is simple and easy enough to use and maintain and small enough to fit into our premises without having a radical reshuffle and are hoping this might be it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[j3dprints]

Hi....packages?........hmmm, that would depend on the model and the priority at the Skyfire end as options do take a bit more time to assemble as opposed to the regular web site catalogue item

Your best bet is to decide what you want to have in the package.

My "package" is a personally optioned SVM-0 mill.....that is a lot different to the standard catalogue SVM-0 which only comes with an ER32 fixed chuck non interchangeable spindle......then make contact with Skyfire.com and ask for a quote for whatever you want.

There are other models they make in the SVM range but the web site catalogue will list them as you want......they're a lot of bang for the buck to be sure.
Ian.

Thanks Ian, could you give me an idea of the price for an SVM-0 with a tool changer, and no other options?

[handlewanker]

Hi....SVM-0 does not come or was designed to have a tool changer..........it does have an option for a special spindle with interchangeable tooling and a power draw bar, but you have to manually insert and remove the tools once the power drawbar unclamps them.

I have an ISO20 spindle taper in my spindle with a power draw bar.

The standard spindle only has an ER32 chuck fitted to it's end......not removable.

You "could" have quick interchangeable tooling if you keep a 3/4" collet in the ER32 chuck all the time and use the parallel TTS shank tools in it.......you do lose a bit of Z height but it's still preferable to inserting and removing cutters with just the ER32 chuck.

if you're concerned about the small loss of Z height you could ask Skyfire.com to fit a spacer to the top of the column to allow longer linear rails and a longer ball screw.........which in my opinion is a better way than fitting a spacer to the bottom of the column...........fitting one to the bottom is an easier method though and would be cheaper......just the cost of spacer block.

You could gain an extra 100mm of height..........that comes into the field of options if they can be catered for.
Ian.

[j3dprints]

Ah, ok, thanks. Could you tell me the AUS/NZ base price for an SVM-0 then? Or any price, so I can get an idea? (a rough range? bare bones to kitted with functioning electronics?)

[MrBean_pm]

Hi,
Send an email to Defeng, you can ask for custom options, like I did. I ordered my machine without any controls, and no servos. Only the spindle motor and VFD, and axis limit switches. The rest I'm doing myself....

Their business seems to be running well now, as recently I ordered the full VMC enclosure too, also custom-build, and it was delivered a few weeks ago....

So best to contact him and discuss your requirements, he will then forward you a proforma invoice based on that.

Cheers,
Beano

[handlewanker]

Ah, ok, thanks. Could you tell me the AUS/NZ base price for an SVM-0 then? Or any price, so I can get an idea? (a rough range? bare bones to kitted with functioning electronics?)

Well, I might be stepping out of line here by quoting a price that was relevant a year or three ago, but you should see a price on the Skyfire .com website.

The base price, 2 years back or so, was approx US$3,500......note the prices in the catalogue are in US dollars.........add to that the shipping cost and the brokerage fees .....I'd say you would not get much small change out of 5 grand.

This is a direct import figure and you will be cutting out any mark up that a dealership would charge you.

Even at that price there is no other small bench top mill on the market to compare with it.

Being a bare essentials mill, you would be a penny wise and a pound foolish to not get the enclosure with it as the shipping cost is almost the same without it........ but you could operate it with a DIY one.

The mill with the enclosure has all the electronics enclosed in the right side compartment of the enclosure, whereas a mill without the enclosure has the electronics in a smaller casing attached to the back of the mill column.
Ian.

[Goemon]

[QUOTE=handlewanker;2108112]Interest on the loan.........oh dear, that is only a 30% tax return for a 100% outlay .....in OZ that is.

Anything you buy that is work related and gets tax deducted is still a burden when you have to pay out top dollar and only get back peanuts......better than nothing I suppose.

I suppose a loan is one way to finance a workshop.........loans are almost as bad as credit cards at 20% +.

I went down a different path when I set up in business in '95.......it's called an asset builder loan account......min take out is $20,000, then you only have to pay the interest each month on the amount you use if you want to, no other charges........same rate as your mortgage.....ours was 5% back then.

About that time I shredded my credit card as the rate was too high.

If you want to end it you just pay off the principle, but the beauty of it is you don't have to re-apply for a loan once it's set up and you have a surplus balance..............also you have to have property with enough equity in it......a careful funds management strategy is a must have or you'll end up owing your soul to the bank.

Hmmmm, Tormach is ALL Chinese??...... wow, the China syndrome is alive and kicking in USA despite what Trump has dreamed up on the platform of lies and lost promises last election day.

Perhaps attributes was a long word to use for the Skyfire, Haas or Tormach et all banana bunch,...... comparison maybe.............in my book if it ain't at least got linear rails, it ain't a CNC mill no matter what the size was and anything without balls crews or ISO 30 is a non starter too.......oh yeah, and a factory fitted enclosure is a must have.

I have ISO 20 on my mill.....it might be BT20 as it has a pull stud......but for anything bigger I'd go for BT30 (with the pull stud



Not to get political or anything but everything Trump makes is made in China and funded by Russia. He makes nothing in America....

IMO, something like a Tormach is a different experience to buying direct from Chinese vendors like Skyfire. Having an honest, trustworthy local business to deal with and having local help, a local guarantee and a level of QC that is.... um.... how to put this.... more culturally aligned with our expectations for the price, changes (almost) everything.


My main issues with buying direct from China are the frustrating customer service experience (or lack there of) and the large number of dishonest vendors combined with a lack of recourse when you get screwed-over. For the most part, quality meets expectations - i.e. It's low but consistent with the price.


It is far too common for Chinese vendors to do unethical things like sending broken goods and then expecting us to pay the $500 or $1000 in return shipping. Or worse, as people here found, taking people's money without being honest about their lack of ability to deliver. Dealing with Chinese vendors direct is often a nightmare.


I also had no response to the emails I sent to Skyfire asking for pricing. Sounds like I got lucky though. A vendor with a track record of steeling thousands of dollars from people here with no communications for 2 or 3 years is more than a red flag. Even if it only happened twice, nobody here should be trusting a company like that with thousands of dollars before seeing the goods.


I know what it's like with a start-up. Sometimes you accept people's money thinking you can deliver and then stuff happens. When it does though, you give back the money immediately and apologize. Keeping the money and going radio silent for two years is steeling. There is no acceptable excuse for that.


With that said, a little common sense is needed from our side when buying anything online.... At the very least, if you have to buy from Skyfire, pay through PayPal and raise a claim if they haven't delivered within a month. If it is going to take 6 months and you are ok with that, pay at the end, not the beginning..... this is common sense! You aren't a bank to fund their start-up costs... letting the money ride past your claim period is stupidity.

[j3dprints]

I emailed skyfire a while ago and have had no reply. Definitely a turn off.

[louieatienza]

Not to get political or anything but everything Trump makes is made in China and funded by Russia. He makes nothing in America....

IMO, something like a Tormach is a different experience to buying direct from Chinese vendors like Skyfire. Having an honest, trustworthy local business to deal with and having local help, a local guarantee and a level of QC that is.... um.... how to put this.... more culturally aligned with our expectations for the price, changes (almost) everything.


My main issues with buying direct from China are the frustrating customer service experience (or lack there of) and the large number of dishonest vendors combined with a lack of recourse when you get screwed-over. For the most part, quality meets expectations - i.e. It's low but consistent with the price.


It is far too common for Chinese vendors to do unethical things like sending broken goods and then expecting us to pay the $500 or $1000 in return shipping. Or worse, as people here found, taking people's money without being honest about their lack of ability to deliver. Dealing with Chinese vendors direct is often a nightmare.


I also had no response to the emails I sent to Skyfire asking for pricing. Sounds like I got lucky though. A vendor with a track record of steeling thousands of dollars from people here with no communications for 2 or 3 years is more than a red flag. Even if it only happened twice, nobody here should be trusting a company like that with thousands of dollars before seeing the goods.


I know what it's like with a start-up. Sometimes you accept people's money thinking you can deliver and then stuff happens. When it does though, you give back the money immediately and apologize. Keeping the money and going radio silent for two years is steeling. There is no acceptable excuse for that.


With that said, a little common sense is needed from our side when buying anything online.... At the very least, if you have to buy from Skyfire, pay through PayPal and raise a claim if they haven't delivered within a month. If it is going to take 6 months and you are ok with that, pay at the end, not the beginning..... this is common sense! You aren't a bank to fund their start-up costs... letting the money ride past your claim period is stupidity.

People come here to talk about CNC, not to do a hit-and-run on Trump. If you own absolutely nothing made in China, then so be it. And let's not get into who really was dealing with the Russians. In Trump's case with his products, he got manufacturers and distributors and actually delivered product. And it was cheaper for the consumer, because they were made overseas. Same thing with your sneakers, computer, phone, parts in your car... The stepper motors and drives you bought for your machine? China. Price steppers from Lin Engineering, who does have a plant in the US and overseas. Teknic is here in upstate NY though even their parts are sourced. I would argue that they're far superior to any WanTai motor. But you have to pay for it.

People chose a SkyFire over a Tormach because of what the SkyFire offered over the Tormach. And people took that risk, because the alternative was too costly. It's what happens with startups, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. You have the benefit of hindsight. We didn't, but we did understand the risks.

What happened to a lot of us is no different than if Defeng started a Kickstarter. We could have been SOL. The fact that I actually got something makes me thankful. I know others haven't been so fortunate. But this is the way it goes. Pricing and specs that many people wanted. Almost too good to be true. We had progress pics of our machines, nearly completed, before the "disappearance." It wasn't cause for alarm at first because there were some one, two week pauses in between pics.

[Roadstercycle]

Well guys just to let you know I just received word and many pictures of my machine. It is done and ready to ship this week. It's a VMC-2. Jan Bos is over there working with Defeng to get it boxed, loaded and shipped. It's been a long 90 days but there has been progress reports and 30 days over due plus 3 weeks shipping now. Jan also sent me video of them rigid tapping with it as they figured out the issue with the Adtech controller with the G84 tapping cycle. This is all awesome but until I have it in my hands all bets are off. I do trust Jan Bos as he has been working awfully hard to help Defeng get the machines out. There's another one ready to go for Phil in Australia.
From what I also understand Defeng just hired a new communications person to take care of emails that starts Monday so there may be some return emails finally coming from them. Defeng a couple months ago was really good at returning emails but it seems when more orders started coming in he was swamped with building. I am not defending him just stating what I found out. Anyway the saga of my machine is not over until I post arrival pictures and unveiling at my shop.

Yes, I took a chance on Defeng delivering, China could rip me off, Trump could put a 25% extra tax on it, Kim Jong-un could drop the bomb on my house in Los Angeles, Hollywood could Implode with sex scandals, and I could be driving an electric car with a 63 mile range (oops, actually I do), In comparison I feel pretty good about Defeng.

Also I did go look at another VMC-2 Skyfire in Pasadena, Ca a few weeks ago. It was a beautiful machine and the guy put it through it's paces for me. He was not a machinists and was still learning it but it worked great. So they are being delivered but at a snails pace. They are not Haas, and Tormach has had years to finally get things straightened out and have parts on hand and a customer service network. I really hope he makes it or Tormach gets a hint as to what we want and the pricing and steps up there game. Nothing like a little competition to get things moving.

OK, off my soap box.

Jack

[handlewanker]

Hi Goemon....as far as I know Defeng does not deal with Paypal for a machine purchase.......it's cash up front baby and take your place in line like the rest of the dudes......if ya ain't on the list ya aint gonna be listened to.

Sometimes you just gotta check the current records of the actual happenings with this particular machine supplier.

For instance, check the postings by Mr Bean and his machine experience with Skyfire.......then make an assumption.

I suppose it would be a bit frustrating to hanker after a machine and not be able to make contact with the supplier......keep trying, it really is worth the aggravation in the end.

[Norvil l]

[QUOTE=Goemon;2120774]

Interest on the loan.........oh dear, that is only a 30% tax return for a 100% outlay .....in OZ that is.

Anything you buy that is work related and gets tax deducted is still a burden when you have to pay out top dollar and only get back peanuts......better than nothing I suppose.

I suppose a loan is one way to finance a workshop.........loans are almost as bad as credit cards at 20% +.

I went down a different path when I set up in business in '95.......it's called an asset builder loan account......min take out is $20,000, then you only have to pay the interest each month on the amount you use if you want to, no other charges........same rate as your mortgage.....ours was 5% back then.

About that time I shredded my credit card as the rate was too high.

If you want to end it you just pay off the principle, but the beauty of it is you don't have to re-apply for a loan once it's set up and you have a surplus balance..............also you have to have property with enough equity in it......a careful funds management strategy is a must have or you'll end up owing your soul to the bank.

Hmmmm, Tormach is ALL Chinese??...... wow, the China syndrome is alive and kicking in USA despite what Trump has dreamed up on the platform of lies and lost promises last election day.

Perhaps attributes was a long word to use for the Skyfire, Haas or Tormach et all banana bunch,...... comparison maybe.............in my book if it ain't at least got linear rails, it ain't a CNC mill no matter what the size was and anything without balls crews or ISO 30 is a non starter too.......oh yeah, and a factory fitted enclosure is a must have.

I have ISO 20 on my mill.....it might be BT20 as it has a pull stud......but for anything bigger I'd go for BT30 (with the pull stud



Not to get political or anything but everything Trump makes is made in China and funded by Russia. He makes nothing in America....

IMO, something like a Tormach is a different experience to buying direct from Chinese vendors like Skyfire. Having an honest, trustworthy local business to deal with and having local help, a local guarantee and a level of QC that is.... um.... how to put this.... more culturally aligned with our expectations for the price, changes (almost) everything.


My main issues with buying direct from China are the frustrating customer service experience (or lack there of) and the large number of dishonest vendors combined with a lack of recourse when you get screwed-over. For the most part, quality meets expectations - i.e. It's low but consistent with the price.


It is far too common for Chinese vendors to do unethical things like sending broken goods and then expecting us to pay the $500 or $1000 in return shipping. Or worse, as people here found, taking people's money without being honest about their lack of ability to deliver. Dealing with Chinese vendors direct is often a nightmare.


I also had no response to the emails I sent to Skyfire asking for pricing. Sounds like I got lucky though. A vendor with a track record of steeling thousands of dollars from people here with no communications for 2 or 3 years is more than a red flag. Even if it only happened twice, nobody here should be trusting a company like that with thousands of dollars before seeing the goods.


I know what it's like with a start-up. Sometimes you accept people's money thinking you can deliver and then stuff happens. When it does though, you give back the money immediately and apologize. Keeping the money and going radio silent for two years is steeling. There is no acceptable excuse for that.


With that said, a little common sense is needed from our side when buying anything online.... At the very least, if you have to buy from Skyfire, pay through PayPal and raise a claim if they haven't delivered within a month. If it is going to take 6 months and you are ok with that, pay at the end, not the beginning..... this is common sense! You aren't a bank to fund their start-up costs... letting the money ride past your claim period is stupidity.

You sound like someone with a serious need for a "safe place". The Chinese probably read all your posts and wisely decided not to respond to you.

[Goemon]

Hi Goemon....as far as I know Defeng does not deal with Paypal for a machine purchase.......it's cash up front baby and take your place in line like the rest of the dudes......if ya ain't on the list ya aint gonna be listened to.

Sometimes you just gotta check the current records of the actual happenings with this particular machine supplier.

For instance, check the postings by Mr Bean and his machine experience with Skyfire.......then make an assumption.

I suppose it would be a bit frustrating to hanker after a machine and not be able to make contact with the supplier......keep trying, it really is worth the aggravation in the end.

Any ambition I had to inquire about their products left when I saw that they had stolen from the people here who trusted them. I refuse to put myself in harms way like that or to support dishonest vendors.

Personally, I would never make a non-secure purchase over the Internet and especially not from an oversees vendor. Anyone that sends cash to someone they don't know over the Internet is asking to get scammed.


There are various methods of ordering online securely. PayPal is just one. Alibaba offers another. eBay another and various credit cards another. When a vendor refuses to accept secure payment methods and asks you to just trust them, a smart person asks why... Nobody you don't know should be asking for your trust on a large electronic financial transaction. They sure as hell would not give us the same trust.


In this case, we are not talking about a theoretical risk of dealing with a vendor in China that is known to be trustworthy. It is one that delivers if it pleases them and disappears with people's cash if it doesn't.


I don't think anyone here should be trying minimize the significance of the members who had negative experiences even if they happened to have a good one. One of the key reasons that forums like this are so great is the ability to share good and bad vendor experiences and warning each other when needed. Otherwise, a bad vendor can continue to steel from people like us with impunity because we have no other recourse.

[Blaat]

Here is my opinion about the Skyfire machines.
I bought a SVM1 some time ago.
Don't expect a fancy video but the description covers all the issues.

[handlewanker]

Whyever are you testing the run out of a pulley belt side guard flange on it's edge?.....that's just the tin belt guard run off protector.....it's no indication of the machine at all......the same for the top pulley nut run out test.

I would be more concerned about the indicator run out in the spindle bore.

I would also re-test the spindle bore by unshipping the drive belt and turn the spindle by hand.

If the indicator then shows no movement it's possible the bearings need adjusting......it has been run as there are chips on the back concertina guard.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

Any ambition I had to inquire about their products left when I saw that they had stolen from the people here who trusted them. I refuse to put myself in harms way like that or to support dishonest vendors.

Personally, I would never make a non-secure purchase over the Internet and especially not from an oversees vendor. Anyone that sends cash to someone they don't know over the Internet is asking to get scammed.


There are various methods of ordering online securely. PayPal is just one. Alibaba offers another. eBay another and various credit cards another. When a vendor refuses to accept secure payment methods and asks you to just trust them, a smart person asks why... Nobody you don't know should be asking for your trust on a large electronic financial transaction. They sure as hell would not give us the same trust.


In this case, we are not talking about a theoretical risk of dealing with a vendor in China that is known to be trustworthy. It is one that delivers if it pleases them and disappears with people's cash if it doesn't.


I don't think anyone here should be trying minimize the significance of the members who had negative experiences even if they happened to have a good one. One of the key reasons that forums like this are so great is the ability to share good and bad vendor experiences and warning each other when needed. Otherwise, a bad vendor can continue to steel from people like us with impunity because we have no other recourse.

Well I suppose you'll just have to keep pressing your nose against the window if you aren't game enough to commit some dough.

I think I can rightly say that you'd have been a hospital case from heart failure if you were in my boots a few years back when I bought my machine......sigh...what an experience......LOL
Ian.

[whimsical]

. Alibaba offers another. [/COLOR]
]

If your looking for buyer protection from Alibaba I think your doomed to failure.
I tried it once and even when the vendor agreed that they sent the wrong thing Alibaba said there was no evidence to support my claim. $125 wasted , chalk that up to experience. Never bought from that site again
No buyer protection at all

[Norvil l]

Well I suppose you'll just have to keep pressing your nose against the window if you aren't game enough to commit some dough.

I think I can rightly say that you'd have been a hospital case from heart failure if you were in my boots a few years back when I bought my machine......sigh...what an experience......LOL
Ian.

There are no windows in Mom's basement.

[manofmanyhats]

Well guys just to let you know I just received word and many pictures of my machine. It is done and ready to ship this week. It's a VMC-2. Jan Bos is over there working with Defeng to get it boxed, loaded and shipped. It's been a long 90 days but there has been progress reports and 30 days over due plus 3 weeks shipping now. Jan also sent me video of them rigid tapping with it as they figured out the issue with the Adtech controller with the G84 tapping cycle. This is all awesome but until I have it in my hands all bets are off. I do trust Jan Bos as he has been working awfully hard to help Defeng get the machines out. There's another one ready to go for Phil in Australia.
From what I also understand Defeng just hired a new communications person to take care of emails that starts Monday so there may be some return emails finally coming from them. Defeng a couple months ago was really good at returning emails but it seems when more orders started coming in he was swamped with building. I am not defending him just stating what I found out. Anyway the saga of my machine is not over until I post arrival pictures and unveiling at my shop.

Yes, I took a chance on Defeng delivering, China could rip me off, Trump could put a 25% extra tax on it, Kim Jong-un could drop the bomb on my house in Los Angeles, Hollywood could Implode with sex scandals, and I could be driving an electric car with a 63 mile range (oops, actually I do), In comparison I feel pretty good about Defeng.

Also I did go look at another VMC-2 Skyfire in Pasadena, Ca a few weeks ago. It was a beautiful machine and the guy put it through it's paces for me. He was not a machinists and was still learning it but it worked great. So they are being delivered but at a snails pace. They are not Haas, and Tormach has had years to finally get things straightened out and have parts on hand and a customer service network. I really hope he makes it or Tormach gets a hint as to what we want and the pricing and steps up there game. Nothing like a little competition to get things moving.

OK, off my soap box.

Jack

I hope it works out well for you. Would you mind doing some runout tests like Blaat did on this page?

Also, are you from roadstercycle.com? If so, thanks for the fh20 kit. My vulcan's electrical system started behaving itself because of it.

[hanermo]

Many thanks to Blaat for the Skyfire video !

1.
It actually sounds pretty good while running.
This means decent bearings in spindle and motor, decent pulleys, proper tension, decent motor, decent belt etc.

2.
The spindle taper tir of 0.04 mm is totally unacceptable.
Max should be 0.01 mm, even if using basic automotive angular contact bearings.

3.
The machine has lack of rigidity at spindle.
About 0.05 - 0.10 mm bend from 2 hands/fingers == 10-15 kgf force but at spindle, not using leverage, or twisting with the table etc.

My guesstimates.
1.
Good. Nothing wrong. Well done. Better than most economy machines.

2.
Total failure.

The spindle is probably ground separately,
2.1 probably not checked for straighness/parallelism/runout of bearing surfaces or inside taper,
2.2 and then assembled by unskilled workers using poor work practices/methods.
-- Like using a hammer to force the spindle into/onto the bearings and or housing.
-- possibly using hammer/impact on the spindle itself, thus brinnelling and destroying the bearings, totally unnecessarily.
If impacts are needed, dead-blow hammers with drifts on the bearing edges only, lightly, would not hurt anything.

Or, the inner taper is not true wrt the spindle runout as such.
Endless options for this to happen.
Anyone could grind and or lap the taper true, while it is running in its bearings in the machine.

3.
Weak.
It is what it is.
However, it is very easy to reinforce the machine structure via external shear plates.
Likewise, a more rigid spindle mount is easily added.

Possible reasons could be;
- the spindle is installed poorly via shims, and does not have sufficient rigidity on the spindle/mount surface.
- spindle is floppy - bad bearings, bad assembly, bad design, bad spindle grind
- machine frame is floppy. Indicating the frame with dti while pushing/pulling would show this.

Please note:
I am NOT blasting skyfire, as such.
They are new, have no experience, have little resources vs established businesses like Tormach or maybe Syil.
Skyfire almost certainly did not make the spindle or test the whole machine for mechanical performance.
Skyfire almost certainly thought in good faith the machine was fine.

They, Skyfire, have also done all the typical new-biz errors in machine tools.
The machine is too cheap, and thus too many shortcuts are used to achieve the initial low price to deliver something, anything.

But the price is too low to use better spindles with bigger bearings and delivered quality.
The price is too low to test everything properly, document it, support it.

Price is too low for stocking parts, for manuals, for specs, for QC or QA, for support in spares etc.
Price is too low for a rigid frame and a good spindle.
Each would cost == 3-500$ extra marginal cost, only, for 10x better results.