Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
LOL....I can sympathise with you on the waiting game bit even if it turns out all right at the end the wait is money gone etc.
Here's a solution, wild as it is it's probably one way to go if you want service.......go to China on a weeks holiday trip cum business trip tax deductible etc which is what it will be and go and see Defeng and have a cosy chat.
Maybe you can pick a machine up from an almost finished floor model and have it in a month or two, shipping time taken into consideration.......Fedex air freight would be more costly but quicker.
The overall cost will probably be a lot less than the alternative Haas model.....and you get to see a bit of the World too.
Ian.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
Video of Tormach tapping 2-56Originally Posted by rx8pilot
Video tapping 0-80 using a tapping head into steel starting at 5:33
If you ask at the Tormach CNCzone forum you'll find that camera and watch and etc people routinely tap large quantities of 0-80, 2-56 and 4-40 holes using a TTS tension/compression tool or a tapping head or 2-56 thread milling using 2-56 Carbide Thread Mill
Last edited by cncoperator; 10-14-2017 at 02:18 AM.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
Wondering what tapping head that is - I have never used one before and curious how well they work when you need to get to the bottom of a blind hole. I will check out that forum. Rigid tapping is definitely the biggest reason the Tormach's were pushed off the list, although there are other worries. They seem to be supported quite well though. My guess is that the purchase and delivery experience is probably really predictable.
That would actually be fun if it would help! At the moment - I have no idea what to expect. Hopefully, Jan will surprise me next week.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
It is common for machines that do rigid tapping to use the same tension/compression holder as the Tormach https://www.mmsonline.com/articles/r...a-little-float. You may also want to chat with Tapamatic about holding repeatable depth Tension Compression Tap Chucks - Tapmatic Corporation but I think you'll find thread milling with a multi point mill the fastest if you do a ton of holes.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
Thread milling 2-56 holes with a Tormach? Yikes, I haven't tried that even with far better machines. Have you thread killed holes that small? Seems super delicate.
In aluminum, form tapping is my first choice for sure - literally a few million holes using quick change tap holders that have a little bit of lateral float. The tapping heads a really big.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
I personally have not. I don't do that kind of work, I don't think I've ever tapped a 2-56 hole in anything, .I suggest you ask the person who owns one at the Tormach cnczone forum.or a manufacturer of 2-56 thread mills such as Carbide End Mills, Thread Mills, Thread Gages, Drills, Solid Carbide Thread Mills how delicate the operation is.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
I have never seen (in a decade) anyone needing those. I would guess they may be popular on old machines, the article is from 2003 [14 years ago] and if they are talking about machines that were 10-15 years old at that time it may make sense. CNC machines 30 years ago probably had rigid tap sync errors much larger than a modern machine. An entry level Haas is pretty well synchronized for rigid tap, but not perfect. The typical rigid tap holders are more than enough to tolerate the tiny errors.
SkyFire's decision to have this feature is definitely smart although it is a side benefit of having a BT30 spindle that must be oriented for the ATC.
As a side note, the BT30 spindle is a standard which is also very nice as opposed to the weird TTS tools used in the Tormach.
From a specs perspective - the Skyfire is really nice. Good design concept.
12 tool ATC (I have a lot of parts that are 10-12 tools). A 12 tool program with a 10 tool ATC sucks. Bad.
BT30 standard spindle (that actually works with the ATC)
10k RPM - awesome for the small tools and aluminum. More RPM, the better give me 50k RPM and I would use it daily.
3hp AC servo spindle - 2x the power and encoded.
Linear ways blow that pants off of a gibb construction. (in most cases anyway)
rigid tap (of course)
3x the rapid speed
XYZ servos
From a reality perspective - SkyFire is out of touch for most customers.
Tormach is established and appears to offer good support.
The long-term quality of the SkyFire in not known to me - I have no idea what it will take to maintain it.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
It has been a week since I have heard anything from Jan about setting up an order. So far, I have not been able to settle a firm order in a whole month. Not exactly building confidence if they cannot even get an order setup.
The latest for me is that I am setting up an order with Haas. Assuming the financing gets a green light (very good chance) - I will order a new Super Mini Mill. It is more money than I wanted to spend but a vastly more capable machine too and Haas holds fantastic resale value.
Really was hoping Skyfire would have been a viable option, but not a good business decision to for me to rely on them. If Tormach had rigid tapping, I may have gone that route. Tormach seriously needs a more capable spindle on the PCNC1100. 5k rpm, 1.5HP with no feedback is weak - even for a low cost machine.
If the Haas financing fails for any reason....I will re-visit this. For now, fingers crossed that a new machine will arrive soon.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
The Novakon Pulsar has rigid tapping.
https://www.novakon.net/products/pulsar
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
Well, all I can say is ....patience is a virtue.......worked in my case, but you have to have the desire to go the extra length.....no good looking back later and wishing.
Ian.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
Fair enough....but in my opinion, failing to even firm up an order in a month, zero of my technical questions answered, and mysterious lead-time shows I had quite a bit of patience. I have a project that will need parts very soon. All of those parts now have to go out to local shops instead I making them in-house. That means I have to pay for 2-3 weeks of machining, make drawings, explain details, etc in addition to making a dozen trips to the shops. These are all brand new parts, so I will miss a dozen engineering issues while outside shops make them on their own schedule. Those issues would be totally obvious if I am machining them, but with an outside shop they will go unoticed for days until I can get back out there and assemble all the pieces. At that point, it will take a week to get back on the schedule to try again - from scratch. For high-volume production where a leadtime of 6-8 weeks is ok - outsourcing is how we will make parts. Most of what we do is <25 parts and the designs are constantly changing. That scenario is deadly slow and expensive.
Long story short - outsourcing is slow and expensive. If I ordered the Haas when first started looking at the Skyfire, it would be making parts by now and have $10k fewer machine shop invoices over the next 4 weeks.
If this was only a hobby, I would be patient as total cash outlay would rule the decisions. As a business, timing is another dimension altogether.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
HI, I just contacted Jan about my machine and mentioned your issue and he said that he was going to go through all his emails and see if he could find out what happened to your emails. He said he's returned everyone's emails and does not see why you did not see his. True, false who the heck knows. I really want these guys to make it as an affordable alternative to Tormach's dove tails and steppers.
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Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
It does not have an ATC.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
I could look past gibbs and steppers if Tormach had a 3hp servo spindle that could do 10k and rigid tapping. 5100rpm is sad. 1.5hp is sad. Path Pilot looks pretty cool though. On the upside - Tormach's are in-stock and ready to ship. A proper technician/machinist answered questions really well when I called. Spare parts are easily available. Overall - Tormach is a pretty nice option if they had an upgraded spindle. I would happily pay real money for a more usable spindle system.
Not sure what will happen with Jan....It does not seem too much to ask that when a customer says (on a few occasions), "I have looked everything over and chosen everything I would like to order. Ready to set that order up, just need a final price, updated lead-time. Let's go." Crickets...... He has responded to a number of emails, but not with any actionable information. No quote, no purchase agreement, nothing that pushed the process. @Roadstercycle - any shipping updates?
Assuming the Haas order goes through for me - I at least have a production level machine that can cover the majority of my production needs if I need to. It is 15hp and 15k RPM which can accompish serious MRR's as well as deal with the considerable detail work with small endmills.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
AS far as shipping updates he's talking to Defeng today to see where I am at. The Haas is a great machine for sure as my friend has worked for them for years. I could not get a decent price even using his discount. There are always used ones for sale but I've never found one close to LA to buy. The Haas machines are big so I truly don't want to get rid of my garage space totally.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
Yes....which is exactly why I was so keen on Skyfire. The concept of the machine seems really fantastic for a garage shop. The Super Mini Mill will barely fit in my garage and consume all available electricity when it is used at full power. I have to make payments every month too which keeps the pressure on continuously until it is paid off.
Look forward to hearing the response from Defeng. I still have about a week before I reach the point of no return with Haas.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
Hi......you are certainly between the Devil and the deep blue sea........my 2 pennoth......buy a Tormach for a short term basic solution and when the Skyfire event happens sell the Tormach to a lucky bidder on this forum.
You should get at least 3/4 of your money back while at the same time getting the parts out even if you have to hand feed the Tormach for a while.....sans ATC etc.
You'll probably already have most of the tooling, and the new TTS stuff would go with the machine when you sell it on anyway.......just a thought.....I suppose there are other similar options you could pursue.
Ian.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
Ooof....that would be a wild ride. If the new Haas does not work for whatever reason....option 2 is a used Haas. I have repaired just about everything on those machines - so a 10 year old machine is not too scary. Option 3 is a new Tormach - along with all it's limitations. Buying the Tormach and then ordering the Skyfire as a replacement a few months later (maybe) seems like a pile of work. The assembly, tweaking, and learning of the Tormach system. The collection of the weird TTS tools....only to be replaced after a few months for a new learning curve. Sounds deadly to an already over-committed fellow like myself.
Looks like Jan has until Wednesday or Thursday next week before I have to commit. The last transmission was 9 days ago, I asked to set up an order 21 days ago along with all necessary details. I have no intention of tracking him down either. If he is too busy or too disorganized - I prefer to stay clear.
Re: Skyfire CNC owners?
Hi, I know what you mean........being in a business type situation as opposed to just hobbying is a different ball game........ I assumed the Haas was physically too big to be a part of your machinery inventory.....apart from the price.
Not having any vested interests in any camp........for a business orientated scenario I would take the safe and sure way every time......you're on your own on that score.
The quick trip (3 day round trip) to China is looking good if the packet you want is something you can't match otherwise.....at the moment you're killing time anyway.
It would cement a decision of yay or nay........the bottom line would have to be how soon can you be up and running parts with an alternative solution......part output makes money......down time doesn't.......as you say, outsourcing is too far down the list of alternatives.......even a Tormach short solution beats that.
Ian.
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