My lathe retrofit

[HuFlungDung]

As a point of general interest, I wanted to tell you all a little bit about a retrofit I completed last year. This is perhaps a little bit more expensive than the typical hobbyist would discuss, but as far as I am concerned, my machining business is just a "hobby gone wild" anyway

10 years ago I bought a Graziano lathe that was already retrofitted with a Bandit 1 controller. This was my very first escapade into cnc.

That controller was old when I bought it and I managed to resusitate it several times, but I finally bit the bullet and decided to redo the control with a PC based CNC called CNC Professional from CamSoftCorp.

This was quite the undertaking for me, as I live in a rural community in north-eastern Saskatchewan (Canada) and there is no technical help available in this community. I am the cnc guru here, I guess

Anyways, I got the rewiring done, I reused the existing servo motors, I simply replaced the X axis encoder with a high precision Sony magnescale ( .00005" resolution) to improve the positioning accuracy. The precision required on the X axis is much higher than Z of course, so I thought this would save me some money, just souping up the X axis.

The software I first started out with from CamsoftCorp was actually the cheaper version "CNC-Lite" they call it, but I later found that some of the features that I wanted to have required the more expensive CNC Professional package, so I upgraded.

I purchased a 3 axis 1832 Galil motion controller card and interconnect box from CamSoftcorp. I had an old 300mhz PC laying around which I used for the controller, I later upgraded that to an AMD 550 which is what it currently uses.

Then I got into writing logic for the user interface. Although their software packages ships in a "ready to run" state, it wasn't as safe or as foolproof as I wanted. The great thing about getting this PCbased cnc, is that I could rewrite and modify the graphical user interface to do whatever I wanted. This was a great treat for a tinkerer like me.

So I wrote logic and tested it at the machine off and on for about a year and a half, before I got everything close to perfection. I estimate I spent 500 hours on the project, but the results were worth it. I use the machine to this day, and I am very pleased with it. Best of all, it is fool-proof enough that it makes an excellent trainer lathe for a novice. I've designed every safety method I can think of into the logic, so its almost hard to make a mistake using it.

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[VooDooMan]

Hey man nice to see you posting your early years success............I am also clad to see some Canadians aboard!
I have not posted here much in posted in a long time, but since I just bought a new lathe, it is time to make it CNC capable!
I am over in Canada BC................Any way its a clausing 1500 15 swing 48 centers, LOVE this machine and since business is picking up real good on my end its time to do some serious production.!

Can we maybe sit down and chat some more on yur experiences, I am not new to CNC but I am definetly new to servo systems and such, Dont really have any idea where to start, leave my old lead scrws or change to ball screw, Every thing is money sadly


Thank you cya

[HuFlungDung]

Hi VoodooMan

Yes, it can be a tough decision to decide whether to retrofit. When you are looking at buying things like precision ballscrews, and a Camsoft cnc controller and servos, it can easily cost 10 grand, plus your lathe. It will suck up a few of your working hours, too.

It might be a little more than you'e want to spend, but I'd take a look at the Haas TL1 lathe. If you are more concerned with being able to run the machine, rather than retrofit it, this one's ready to go, and still gives you a nifty measure of "man over machine" control. I had a guy demo one at IMTS and I was fairly intrigued by it. Its not all closed in like a full cnc, but for a guy who doesn't want to program every cut, I think this would be a good entry level machine. If I had some spare change, I'd buy one just to play with it and see how useful it would really pan out to be.

I think some other forumers have bought one of these machines, so I'd like to hear their feedback about it.

[VooDooMan]

Very good point, but now sadly I am going to have to stick to retrofit, Quality isnt that big of a problem, since production isnt always going to be done, rarely on some plastics will I need CNC, but I love the freature!
The lathe was almost 4 grand and has paid it self 50 times over...........I still dont want to get in over my head with this retrofiting, but I am going to keep it under 1.5 thousand $, I have seen it done successfuly, with some time invested, searching for good deals is what takes up most of the time

Perhpas we can step into private chat through email, and I can pick your brains a little bit? What do you say to that offer heheh!

Thank you again!

[Piobaire]

Hi there!
I'm just in an early stage of rebuilding an 1985 Harrison M400 CNC (8"x60") with a new PC-based controller from Ajax CNC. The old Anilam Crusader IIL have done its job a long time a go, that's why I got it quite cheap. A 4-position tool changer also came in the deal.

First of all, the cross slide table where worn as lack of lip seals. I'll make a new table and also increase the ball screw height in the slide to fit in a standard sized ball nut and better bearings. The servo is originally fitted in front resulting in that the operator is placed too far from the machine. I'll also change the x-axis servo to fit in the opposite side to earn space.

The servo for the z-axis is a bit in the way for the slide so the travel length in z-axis becomes a bit limited. Hopefully I'll come up with a nice idea to move that to, avoiding the two servos to collide.

Then I plan to build a new controller box a bit like the new Harrison Alpha series that could slide on the front with two hand wheels to run the machine in manual mode. I already got a 15Hp frequency inverter to control spindle speed.

Send rough pictures of "before" and "after" very fast sketched in SolidWorks.

Is there anyone with experiances regarding DC servos, DC servo drives, Ajax CNC, rotary encoder placement, lathe design for best performance and accuracy etc. pleas feel free to email me.

Best regards
/Thomas (Sweden)

[VooDooMan]

any spare equipment you can let go from your old CNC, any thing working at least?


Thank you

[r1656]

As a point of general interest, I wanted to tell you all a little bit about a retrofit I completed last year. This is perhaps a little bit more expensive than the typical hobbyist would discuss, but as far as I am concerned, my machining business is just a "hobby gone wild" anyway

10 years ago I bought a Graziano lathe that was already retrofitted with a Bandit 1 controller. This was my very first escapade into cnc.

That controller was old when I bought it and I managed to resusitate it several times, but I finally bit the bullet and decided to redo the control with a PC based CNC called CNC Professional from CamSoftCorp.

This was quite the undertaking for me, as I live in a rural community in north-eastern Saskatchewan (Canada) and there is no technical help available in this community. I am the cnc guru here, I guess

Anyways, I got the rewiring done, I reused the existing servo motors, I simply replaced the X axis encoder with a high precision Sony magnescale ( .00005" resolution) to improve the positioning accuracy. The precision required on the X axis is much higher than Z of course, so I thought this would save me some money, just souping up the X axis.

The software I first started out with from CamsoftCorp was actually the cheaper version "CNC-Lite" they call it, but I later found that some of the features that I wanted to have required the more expensive CNC Professional package, so I upgraded.

I purchased a 3 axis 1832 Galil motion controller card and interconnect box from CamSoftcorp. I had an old 300mhz PC laying around which I used for the controller, I later upgraded that to an AMD 550 which is what it currently uses.

Then I got into writing logic for the user interface. Although their software packages ships in a "ready to run" state, it wasn't as safe or as foolproof as I wanted. The great thing about getting this PCbased cnc, is that I could rewrite and modify the graphical user interface to do whatever I wanted. This was a great treat for a tinkerer like me.

So I wrote logic and tested it at the machine off and on for about a year and a half, before I got everything close to perfection. I estimate I spent 500 hours on the project, but the results were worth it. I use the machine to this day, and I am very pleased with it. Best of all, it is fool-proof enough that it makes an excellent trainer lathe for a novice. I've designed every safety method I can think of into the logic, so its almost hard to make a mistake using it.

Hi
Im interested in the parts you used to retrofit your sag 12 and as many photos as you can send so I can see what it is you did to accomplish this feat. Russ Please send to r1656@aol.com I sure appreciate it and it would make my project much simpler looking at what someone else did.

[HuFlungDung]

Russ,
I don't have detailed pictures taken during the retrofit stage. Its all together now, and it is difficult to make out too much.
My lathe actually was a re-retrofit, so indeed, some previous owner had already gutted the quickchange geabox, apron, and installed the ballscrews and servomotors. So I started from that point, replacing the control was my main headache.

I'll take what pictures I can. A lot of the good stuff is buried under covers and such....

[Al_The_Man]

Hu, Did you ever get the Threading routine down pat? Was it using native Galil commands?
Al.

[Geof]

......I think some other forumers have bought one of these machines, so I'd like to hear their feedback about it.

Could not be happier. I bought one to use for developing new parts and making tooling. Now I am reluctant to go to any of the manual machine even just for facing something. I have been impressed with the rigidity of the TL and have uploaded two pictures showing before and after shots of a shaft about 8 inches long done without a center or any support. The only minor complaint I have is that the rapids and tool changer are very slow so it is not really suitable for doing much by way of production involving all four tools.

[HuFlungDung]

Hu, Did you ever get the Threading routine down pat? Was it using native Galil commands?
Al.

Al,
Nothing has changed in that department, since I'm all out of ideas to make it any better I do still run the threading via a Galil program directly on the card. It never mucks up tracking the original thread groove, no problem there, but sometimes I wonder if the thread tool is ever going to move, then suddenly the machine will see the encoder pulse and it will seem to take several passes just as quick as can be, with little delay.

I'm still thinking that it just a matter of synchronization, and the Galil card is just not looking for the input continuously, but is rather sampling the input. So in the short timeframe allowed, with the encoder running at quite high speed, it misses the right interval to take the sample and see the signal.

My reason for my theory, is that I am running the Galil card at nearly as fast an update rate as is allowed, plus I have the spindle encoder running at 1/4 of the spindle speed. This seemed to be the best fit for this hardware, although an even greater reduction in encoder speed might be beneficial. But, I thread typically at 800 rpm, so the encoder is only turning at 200 rpm now.

[CATCH22]

HU im curious i just bought a sag12 and the transmission cluthes are slipping. do you know if you are still using the trans or are you just using the motor with a vfd. thanks catch.

[HuFlungDung]

Catch,

I am still using the transmission, never did overhaul it. I figured when it got to that point, I would put the VFD on it.

There are a bunch of guys over on the practical machinist forum that have repaired graziano lathes. There might be some pointers there that will help you figure out how to fix it on your own, or perhaps to find parts, rewind coils, etc.

If you have 'heavy cutting' to do, it would be nice to have an option for at least a couple of gear changes along with the VFD. Maybe you can bypass the slipping gears and make do with the good ones, along with the VFD.

[Adobe Machine]

Hu: Just a quick question: I'm converting a manual Pratt and Whitney Tool Room lathe to CNC and have decided to retain the full gear box ( it has a total of 32 speeds with the two speed AC motor ) instead of going the VFD route.I'm mounting an encoder to the spindle which will referance true spindle speed.Have you had any issues using the transmission in yours as opposed to going to a VFD ? My threading program relies on the encoder to act as a "Tach" only, coordinating X and Z as related to spindle speed. I have run a hand held , non contact tachometer to the chuck and can see little, if any rpm variation. Using the same tachometer on my retrofitted mill with VFD, I do see some small variations.
Thanks for your time

Adobe (old as dirt )

[HuFlungDung]

Adobe,
If you are running a Camsoft retro, you should add a bit of logic into the timer.fil and take actual samples of your spindle speed as calculated from the encoder feedback. Because we are not using a VFD, we cannot force an accurate spindle speed to be reached, but we do need to know what it is.

The logic used within your threading gcode then needs to autocalculate the feedrate (in IPM) based on the actual pitch of the thread to be cut. This simple math is easy to include within the logic of your desired gcode.

For a complete threading cycle, I took one sample of the spindle speed and then forced the feedrate calculation to be saved and used for the duration of that threading cycle. This is because I did not want the feedrate to change because of the slight variation that could occur from a new spindle speed sample.

I have no issues with the tool tracking the original path as a result of taking these precautions.

[Adobe Machine]

Hu: Thanks..so you have had no problems with late X axis pull out and breaking the threading tool on a shoulder..I see what you mean by "forcing" one sample as opposed to the controller trying to compensate for small variations in spindle speed..
Again thanks for the info

Adobe ( old as dirt )

[HuFlungDung]

I can see that the X axis retraction could be a problem. The way I wrote my threading cycle, I included a radial retraction of the tool at the end of the thread. I do not call seperate G02 at the end of the thread because that could involve a definite hesitation and broken tool if you ran in single step.

Now because I wrote the threading routine in Galil commands, I was able to predefine the threading motion and the radial retraction as one smooth vector sequence. That means, set up the path first, then wait for the start signal (encoder triggered) and then the sequence executes as one fluid motion. You get the same type of action when you call for the Camsoft SMOOTH ON function. However, you must turn SMOOTH OFF after each such sequence and before the final move in the sequence so that is a bit cumbersome. Better to do it right in the Galil unless you can figure a way around any problems.

Here is an exerpt from my Galil program demoing how the cut is done. You will notice that the program is filled up with many 6 or 7 character variable names. You can pass information from your Camsoft interface to the Galil to feed these variables. So you can assume that mathematics is carried out elsewhere to get the missing values that you do not see here. I don't know whether that helps or hinders

REM Next will be the tool movement to the start position of the cut.
SP 37500,37500
PR BEGINZ,BEGINX REM start point for the cut
BG XY
AM XY
REM Next 5 lines define the threading movement including any radius pullout.
VM XY
VS VSPEED REM calculation is carried out for a combined axis speed so that taper threading will be on pitch
VP ZLENGTH,XHEIGHT REM this is the endpoint for this cut, before the radius retraction, next
JP #SKIPRAD,(@ABS[RADIUS]<10)
CR RADIUS,ARCBEGN,ARCROT
#SKIPRAD
VE
REM NOSTOP is a flag so that the threading pass cannot be interrupted in mid-cut.
REM However, this program will go into feedhold right after the threading pass.
NOSTOP=1
REM The next input signal 3 comes from the spindle encoder index pulse
AI 3
BGS REM this is when the cut happens, the Begin Sequence command
AM XY

[Adobe Machine]

Thanks for the information. In fact, have the capability to "lock in" the rpm, so that small variations will not affect X and Z..X pull out is G00, calculated at 80 IPM. This has to be faster than I can manually do an X pull out , which is the only time I've broken an expensive thread profile cutter when I was a little slow bringing X out .
( lie, I dropped the whole cutter on the concrete not too long ago, the cutter end hit first, crappy luck)

Adobe (old as dirt )

[Adobe Machine]

Wow..I can see why you are sucessful..What concentration and inguinity..I really compliment your methods and procedures. This is just gonna take me a few days to digest and try and implemint.

Hats off to Hu..

Adobe ( old as dirt )

[weblogictech]

I own a mazak quickturn 10 with Mazatrol T1 controller. I am looking for an option to retrofit the same with PC Based maybe Galil Motion Card and Camsoft Professional Software.

I appreciate feedback from users who have done this in past, is it complicated or there are problems with it or is prop. controller like Mits, Fanuc, Siemens etc is better option for Lathes.

Regards,

Rizwan