Entry Level CAM Steel Cage Death Match! Sunday Sunday Sunday!


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Thread: Entry Level CAM Steel Cage Death Match! Sunday Sunday Sunday!

  1. #1
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    Default Entry Level CAM Steel Cage Death Match! Sunday Sunday Sunday!

    To set the stage: I recently started a company that does both engineering consulting and also incubates/develops its own new product concepts. I picked up a Bridgeport Series II factory CNC (Centroid M40 controller currently running CNC7) to use for both building prototypes and making parts for consulting clients. To be clear, making parts in-house is a fairly ancillary aspect of the business, and I'm definitely not rolling in cash at this point, so every purchase decision has to be budget conscious.

    I've combed through all the relevant posts that I could find for guidance, but am still left with quite a few questions. If you're sick of noobs asking what CAM software they should get, stop here. If you think there's still some relevant debate to be had...read on.


    I already run Solidworks Premium, so where an integrated option is available, that's what I'm looking at. Here are the contenders as I see it:
    OneCNC
    VisualCam Mill for Solidworks
    Sprutcam
    FeatureCam
    (gulp) BobCad for Solidworks



    I anticipate needing 3-axis capability at some point, so I'd rather only consider those packages now rather than find the best bargain on a 2.5-axis platform and then have to compromise or learn something new later. Other features that I consider valuable are:


    Advanced toolpaths: basically the ability to do more than constant-z 3-d surfacing for improved finish etc.
    Solidworks integration: I'm sure the learning curve will be faster using a GUI that I'm already pretty good at.
    Rest machining: Seems like a waste to have a 4hp machine and not use big tools for roughing.


    I put together a table of these basic parameters for each contender. I don't have all the info to completely fill it out (still contacting the various companies), so if you can fill in any of the blanks (or correct any errors), please reply and do so.


    Product VisualCam Mill for Solidworks OneCNC SprutCam BobCad for Solidworks FeatureCam
    Version Std Expert Pro Advantage Pro Expert Standard Pro ?
    Cost $1,250.00 $2,500.00 $5,000.00 ? ? $2,125.00 $1,000.00 ? ?
    Solidworks Integration Y Y Y N N N Y Y N
    Advanced toolpaths Y Y Y N Y Y N Y Y
    Rest Machining N N Y N Y Y N Y Y


    Of course, the biggest thing this table doesn't capture is the overall quality and ease of use of each package. After reading about so many negative experiences, I took BobCad off the list. Then I noticed a trend that the negative reviews seem to be getting fewer and farther between as time goes by, and I've found very few reviews of BobCam for Solidworks. Have they improved their product that much in recent years? Have they learned their lessons about overly aggressive sales tactics and shoddy customer support? Until I can figure out those answers, it's back on the list.


    I only just started looking at FeatureCam after a few people mentioned it in some posts. The big unknown is how much it costs...can anyone chime in on that?


    How come so few people (without Tormach machines) are using Sprutcam? Looks like it might be the cheapest option to offer Rest machining and advanced toolpaths.


    VisualCam looks like a pretty good deal and people seem to really like it, but you have to jump up to Pro for Rest machining (as far as I can tell). I can't spend that much money right now.


    Can anyone provide rough cost for OneCNC? I haven't heard back from them yet.


    Sorry for re-hashing such an old debate. I really value any insight anyone can add to help inform this decision.


    Thanks!
    Tom

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: Entry Level CAM Steel Cage Death Match! Sunday Sunday Sunday!

    For the level of OneCNC you probably desire, it will be close to or more than the top end of your list in price. I used to own OneCNC XP and it was pushing $5k back then with little more than the toolpaths that are now in the most basic 3d CAM software applications (that was cutting edge back then). It's a great application, but when they say that it's budget software, they mean compared to software in the $15-25k range. It's very good software, but not necessarily what I'd call budget oriented from the perspective of a one-man shop.

    Bobcad has become very good over the last few releases and I've been a user for a while now. It still has the occasional bugs, but most get corrected after a few months of the first release. The few complaints I hear about crashing tend to come from people using very consumer grade computers, but no matter what CAM application you get you should figure that it's best to have a workstation grade computer anyways. I get very, very few crashes and it runs very reliably on my workstation.

    Bobcad's pricing is also a lot better than you are listing it at. I don't know that I like sharing in a public forum what I paid or others I know paid since I do believe that Bobcad takes the specific customer into account to a degree, but I do feel comfortable saying that you'd do better than Mill Standard for $1000. My suggestion would be to aim for 3 Axis Mill Pro and get a price quote with any additional modules you may like (Bobart Pro, Simulation Pro, etc.). I have a feeling you'll be at the lower end of your pricing matrix even with those options.

    Then you have to consider some of the actual toolpath strategies and how they work. In some ways, I think Bobcad has actually eclipsed some of the higher end products in their latest release. A couple of examples:

    Equidistant Offset: This toolpath feature produces evenly spaced cuts regardless of the surface shape, so basically a constant spacing from cut to cut. Some improvements over the basic concept of that spacing is that they now added the option to use drive curves to direct the way the toolpath follows the part. In some cases where it matches the application well, this option produces a cut very similar to a "morphing between curves" type of cut. In other conditions, it has less of an impact, but you would get to know where it adds to the finish quality and where it doesn't, but it rarely produces a path that is worse than not using the option at all (which is still an option). Another addition is that you can specify the angles of the surface between which to machine. I have not upgraded to V27 yet, so I'm still learning these new additions, but I can say that this option seems to be perfect for using equidistant offset to cut round overs on complex shapes. You can set the limits to be between 0 degrees (flat surface) to 89.9 degrees (nearly vertical) and it will cut the round over without ever getting to the vertical surface wall. This works excellently on complex radius edges where you might be going from a 1/2" round over to a 1/4" round over while following a curved joint between a top and side surface. In the past, this was a very difficult toolpath to properly generate, but so far it seems to be very do-able now and makes me want to upgrade ASAP.

    Advanced Planar: This is a modernized version of the standard "Slice Planar" toolpath where the cuts remain parallel across a 3d surface. What's cool about this is it eliminates the problem of having too few cuts on more vertical walls. Normally, as the walls of a part get steep, the cuts are further apart, and you are more likely to use something like Equidistant Offset. With the Advance Planar feature, you can set the spacing for steep walls to be different from the more flat areas, basically somewhat of an "adaptive" toolpath strategy. I have rarely used the standard Slice Planar simply because it required either setting the spacing too tight to compensate for steep areas, resulting in longer cutting time, or combining it with a second toolpath strategy such as Z-Level to clean up those steep areas, and I'm not a fan of cutting the same area twice as a finish pass (not quite the same as rest machining in my book). I can see where the options of Advance Planar would make it much more useful and in many cases a better option than Equidistant Offset, which has always been the go-to toolpath for varying steepness parts. Plus, they also added the slope angle range option to the Advanced Planar, which gives additional control over what portions of the job you cut, making it possible to do true rest machining of areas that you want a second operation on instead of just cutting the same area twice as you would if you had used the standard Slice Planar.

    Both of the above features added to V27 have really made it a top notch CAM application IMHO. Every release since V24 has provided significant improvements over the control of the toolpaths, to the point where they may be starting to become leaders in CAM in that regard, particularly at their price point. Many of the controls they have added are normally more of a multiaxis package level, but they are getting close to that kind of control without getting into the higher priced multiaxis Module Works core.

    I have not used the Solidworks version of Bobcad, but it's really never produced many complaints that I'm aware of. For the most part, as you suspected, there really aren't many users that are having problems with the more recent releases. There are still some that experience an issue here or there, but the vast majority seem to be getting along just fine. The Bobcad forum here is probably one of the most active on the entire site, so you can pretty well figure that any questions get answered quickly. I think that one thing about the Solidworks version is that far fewer users here are going to be able to assist as much, so my advice would be to stick to the stand alone application instead. There are probably not many advantages to having it built in to Solidworks anyways. If I need to update the model geometry for a part, I just "merge" a newer version of that part into the old Bobcad file and then reselect the geometry for calculating the toolpath. In most cases, I can update a toolpath to a revised model in a matter of minutes, which would probably be similar to doing so in Solidworks. If you're good with learning software, then the Solidworks version is probably fine, but just remember that most Bobcad users on the forums aren't using Solidworks and just won't be able to help much if you need it.

    As for the sales tactics and support with Bobcad, I think they are making a pretty solid effort to correct their past mistakes and have been doing so for several years. At this point, I have not heard anything bad in quite a while. That said, my personal experience which dates back to V17 is that they have never been overly aggressive or annoying. I'm not saying it didn't happen to folks, but in all the years I've had Bobcad, I've only received around 2 calls from their sales staff per year. One is usually for their most recent version, trying to get me to upgrade (and I have from time to time), and the second call has typically been to inform me that there will be a training seminar in my areas and they try to sell me on that as well. My phone conversations have always been pleasant, but perhaps I'm just not sensitive about it. I just tell them what I'm thinking, and it's either that I'm intersted in upgrading or call me back next time you have a version coming out. They've pretty well always respected me on that and I've always been amazed to hear the bad press.

    Of the rest of your list, SprutCAM would be my second choice. They added a nice morphing toolpath that I'd love to see in Bobcad's 3 Axis Mill Pro version (I actually submitted a feature request to modify the drive curves function of Equidistant Offset to add morphing as an option). On the other hand, you can get Bobcad 4 Axis Mill Pro with more of those advanced morphing style toolpaths than SprutCAM for not a whole lot more, so that would be a tough choice (unless you plan to have a 4th axis, then it's an easy choice).

    Hope that helps some. If you have questions about Bobcad, I'm happy to answer them as best I can. I'm not affiliated with them at all, so I can give a pretty no-BS opinion about what it can and can't do.

    Last edited by mmoe; 11-19-2014 at 02:31 AM.


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    Default Re: Entry Level CAM Steel Cage Death Match! Sunday Sunday Sunday!

    Wow, that's an incredible rundown. Thank you so much for putting so much time into writing that. I've narrowed it down to BobCad and Sprutcam...everything else is just too expensive for the low rate at which I'll be making parts. I'll definitely check out those toolpaths you talked about if I wind up with BobCad.

    Of course, now it looks like the hard drive in my CNC has died...so I may not be up and running for a little while now.

    Thanks again,
    Tom



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    Default Re: Entry Level CAM Steel Cage Death Match! Sunday Sunday Sunday!

    you would be surprised how much stuff you can make with 2.5D tool paths. since you already have solidworks I would simply download HSMXpress and go from their. it Doesn't cost you anything and simplifies work flow by being in solidworks. I like the workflow advantage and wouldn't purchase a non integrated CAM software unless I had too. Can't tell you how awesome it is to be working on cam, see something I need to change, switch back to my modeling tab fix it then go back and regen the tool paths. Probably took longer to type it than to do.



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    Default Re: Entry Level CAM Steel Cage Death Match! Sunday Sunday Sunday!

    Well, it's all said and done. I went with BobCad Pro. They gave me a standalone license and a SolidWorks license for a pretty damn good price. Thanks to everyone for their valuable insights. I will certainly post about my experience with it. However...

    ...looks like the hard drive on my CNC pooped the bed. If I can get it to boot, I can get all the config files off of it and should be back up and running soon. If not, I may be able to use a drive recovery service to get them. If not, it's going to be a fairly cumbersome process of setting the controller back up for my machine. Wish me luck!



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    Default Re: Entry Level CAM Steel Cage Death Match! Sunday Sunday Sunday!

    You probably now know why I don't think it's necessarily a good idea to be too specific on pricing in the forums when it comes to Bobcad. They really seem to do an excellent job of meeting specific customers' needs and in many ways that makes the price one customer pays a little irrelevant as compared to the next customer, who probably has a very different set of requirements. Sounds like you got what you needed (and maybe more?) for a price that works, which is really what I think they excel at.

    I think it was a good move to get the stand alone version. You'll be able to do all the same things in the Solidworks setup, but if you need help learning, it will be easier for the rest of us to help if you are on the stand alone. In most cases, it's best if you post a .bbcd file so others can open it and give you insight that is directly relevant to what you are doing. With those that have the Solidworks only version, that doesn't seem to really work. I don't know for sure, but my impression is that the Solidworks version won't save out a .bbcd file, which makes sharing the file for help very difficult. I think only a couple regular users of the Bobcad forums here are using the Solidworks version, but there are many very helpful users that have the standalone, whether they use the CAD portion of it or not (I do my CAD in Viacad Pro, Bonzai 3d and Rhino). Once you have figured out Bobcad from the stand alone, I expect that the Solidworks version will work nearly the same from a toolpath perspective.



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Entry Level CAM Steel Cage Death Match! Sunday Sunday Sunday!

Entry Level CAM Steel Cage Death Match! Sunday Sunday Sunday!