Kira VTC 30


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Thread: Kira VTC 30

  1. #1
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    Default Kira VTC 30

    I figured that I'd make a topic on this new project of mine. I bought a old Tree/Kira VTC30 that did not work and I didn't have any chance to test it with power before purchasing it. My only CNC experience before this is a 60x40 chinese cnc router with mach3 so I think the learning curve will be steep. My plan is to hopefully be able to fix it and have a running machine obviously. The error I was told about is that they could not get the spindle running. Then there is a transport damage with broken power and encoder cable to the Y stepper driver. I've ordered new plugs and will solder in new once when they arrive. Until then I don't want to power up the machine just not to get more errors in because of the missing encoder signal cable that I would have to unplug.

    I love threads with photos so I will put some in this one as I go forward on the project.

    Here is the photos I got from the seller before buying it. These where taken by the shop he bought it from because I noticed that it's in another location than he had it stored in and the keepad on the first photos is old. In the photos in the shop he had it stored in the keepad is new. Almost wonder if there's a problem related to the whole controle system since that pad was replaced but who knows^^

    Kira VTC 30-salg1-jpgKira VTC 30-salg2-jpgKira VTC 30-salg3-jpgKira VTC 30-salg4-jpgKira VTC 30-salg6-jpgKira VTC 30-salg7-jpgKira VTC 30-salg8-jpg

    Then a few weeks went by and I looked at some smaller chinese machines and manual mills considering those instead. I was really not into buying a huge machine like this not knowing if anything works at all. I then spoke abit with the seller again and made a trip to have a look at it. I was about to leave without buying it but then he offered it to me at a really good price and I felt I had to go for it. Worst thing I can prolly sell some parts from it and make some of it back atleast. More to follow in next post.

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Kira VTC 30-salg1-jpg   Kira VTC 30-salg2-jpg   Kira VTC 30-salg3-jpg   Kira VTC 30-salg4-jpg  

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    Last edited by m1n1m; 10-12-2017 at 07:32 PM.


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Kira VTC 30

    Since I didn't have a location for such a heavy cnc machine I had to start making room for it. I had a room that's been sitting around without a floor that is approx 3.6x2.5 meters. It's not huge but the machine itself is 1.7x1.25m so it should fit with some space on all sides. First thing to do was to prepare drain and water since I want that before pouring concrete and making it hard to install later. Keep in mind that I'm no professional here so there might be errors done or stupid ways of doing things but it's just stones beneath so no danger of the machine falling anywhere if I made a mistake with the concrete so I wanted to do this DIY.

    Kira VTC 30-img_4947-jpg

    I then used insulation under just incase I want to heat this room for later and placed some iron armouring(?) to reinforce the concrete.

    Kira VTC 30-img_4982-jpg

    Then it was concrete pouring time. This was approx 1m^3 of concrete or 2300kg of concrete that I mixed manually. A lot of work but I don't live close to companies that delivere concrete so it's very pricey to have it delivered if buying mixed concrete.
    Kira VTC 30-img_4985-jpgKira VTC 30-img_4987-jpgKira VTC 30-img_4988-jpgKira VTC 30-img_4989-jpg

    The concrete has now been curing for almost two weeks and the floor came out decent for a first time concrete worker if I'm allowed to say that myself

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    Default Re: Kira VTC 30

    And this monday I finally got the call. It was delivery time and the machine was on it's way. I was really not prepared for the size of the machine even if I had seen it before. The crane had troubles getting inside my garage so I had to use my mini excavator from inside the garage to pull while the crane driver gently set it down just to get it into the concrete floor. We managed to get it in there somehow and later that evening we drove it to a storage location inside until I'm done with the room it's going into.

    Kira VTC 30-img_5051-jpgKira VTC 30-img_5054-jpgKira VTC 30-img_5055-jpg

    Since I'm building a workshop on top of this again there is going to be a pilar in the door opening once everything is mounted. This ment that I would not get the machine out from the room again if I can't fix it or somethings happend. The old door was also only 125cm so the machine would be very hard to get inside since it's the same width. So I have built up a new wall in the old opening and moved it/made it wider so the machine fits. I kinda had to move it to reinforce what's on top anyways so this was a good time to move it for both reasons
    Kira VTC 30-img_5138-jpg

    Moving the door opening made new problem with the floor in the new opening I decided to use my Hilti and make it much lower than the floor since these stones are not strong enough on the surface to have high load on a small spot. Once I got it down a bit I just used some iron I had lying around even if I'm sure It's not that important down there and I poured concrete in it making it even with the rest of the floor. It would have been nicer doing this in the same pour as I did the floor but I didn't dare to make the opening bigger before I had the new wall in the old opening so it carried what's above. I will give this a week or two to cure while I paint the floor and the walls.
    Kira VTC 30-img_5142-jpg

    I do also have a power supply problem. This machine requires a 32A 3-phase fuse and I only got a 3-phase 25A fuse for my whole workshop.. I will need to pull approx 75meters of new thick cable to be able to have enough power for this. I'm doing some calculation on the cable now and hopefully will be able to pull a new one this weekend.

    Within a week or two I should have the new contacts for the servo motor so I can power up the machine and try some trouble shooting on the spindle motor. Any good tips on howto do this is welcome. I got access on a fluke, oscillioscope and wiring diagrams but I there isn't to much info on expected signal levels and so on. Does a troubleshooting guide to Fanuc 0M exist?

    There is a big chance I'm making a big fool out of myself ending up with a machine never working here but you can't succeed without trying!

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    Kira VTC 30-img_5142-jpg  


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    Default Re: Kira VTC 30

    Looks like a cool machine for your shop. I had similar fears when I purchased an old 1986 J310... Honestly was not sure if I'd purchased 4,000lbs of scrap or a decent mill... I had sold my beloved Bridgeport and jumped into the deep end of CNC with zero experience. Really happy to have made the transition now and could not imagine going back to a manual mill. I don't know a thing about your machine but I can offer encouragement and moral support... I had to swap out the control on my machine, keeping the servos and amps so perhaps I can be of help if that's a direction you end op going. Good luck!

    Mike



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    Default Re: Kira VTC 30

    Nice! I’ve considered replacing the control system if that’s the reason for the spindle not working. Also if I can’t drip feed the program this control system won’t work due to memory limits. I might take you up on this if I ever come this far in the project. Did you rebuild into mach3 you kept the encoders?

    The cable dimensions are now clear. Due to low ik2pmin I have to use a 3x50mm2 cable from my house to the garage to meet short circuit requirement. This was crazy expensive and I’m not even sure if I will be able to pull it out to the garage. Going to do a test pull this weekend before I order the cable. I put new asphalt over the cable only one year ago so I’m really hesitant to dig up the road again to put down a new one. Without this new cable I don’t think I can even power it up to test it There is a huge voltage drop in the current cable if I put some load on it. drops from 240 to 200.. I guess I will only ruin electronics if I test on voltage as low as this and when I power up the machine the 9kva trans will act almost like a short and pull it even further down until it powers up. What do you guys think?



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    Default Re: Kira VTC 30

    Electronics, servo amps and servo motors will likely all be useable with your current 25amp 3phase service. You may have issues if your taking a big cut at 40ipm... Not sure why your seeing so mush voltage drop? Is it a long run? Perhaps the service wire gauge is undersized?



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    Default Re: Kira VTC 30

    Yes it is 75 meters approx and the wire is indeed undersized. It's now a 6mm2 cable (9AWG) on the 25A fuse. According to a software my company uses for cable dimensions according to the spec in my country i need 50mm2(0AWG) to meet the requirements in 2017. They didn't care/know as much 20-25years ago when this was installed

    A long and boring story, drop this part if you don't want to read OT: In theory I shouldn't have more than 10V-ish drop from 240 to 230 but it's more when I measure since it drops on the intake as well. I complained last year because when I was charging my eletric car at only 16Amp, put on a dishwasher and a water heater it pulled voltage down 20V in the fuse box (not at end of cable). My power supplier then had part of the line from me to the trans upgraded and the voltage out from the trans was adjusted up so I got 240v on my intake instead of 210v that I had. My neighbour had problems for years with equipment that wouldn't start up but they always thought it was broken. When he tried it after they installed a new cable and adjusted it started working again It's not perfect still but it's better. I live on a farm pretty spread out so we got some distance to the trans with old thin cables and this makes things more complicated

    I'm just afraid of frying electronics with such big voltage drop. Low voltage in the eletronic circuits often give higher amps and ruin circuits. I don't know how prone this machine is to that but I don't want to play with fire. I will try to get a new cable on monday and install it before I start it up. Not to afraid of doing the test with the 25A breaker that is there today since worst case it will just trip. I need to do this upgrade anyways so might as well do it before I ruin anything.

    Edit:

    Just tried googling a bit. Since this machine has a 9kVA trans does it mean that it has approx 900Amp inrush current? That's crazy

    https://www.ametherm.com/inrush-curr...h-current.html



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    Default Re: Kira VTC 30

    Not much happening here. The room is slowly getting ready so I'm going to post some pics from that. I started last week with high pressur washing the room. The old paint didn't like that so i was back with concrete walls.

    Kira VTC 30-img_5176-jpg

    I first coated the floor/walls/ceiling with something to avoid concrete dust and to get the paint to stick.
    Kira VTC 30-img_5220-jpg

    Then sealed off the door temporary since have 0 degrees in the night here in Norway now and that's to low for the paint to dry.
    Kira VTC 30-img_5222-jpg

    Paint time! Painted all walls and ceiling with white concrete paint. I'm never going to get headhunted as a painter that's clear now I should do two layers but this isn't in the livingroom so it'l do. The point was to get it to reflect more light so it's better working conditions not that it needs to be pretty.
    Kira VTC 30-img_5224-jpg

    As I've walked past the machine many times lately I had a closer look at the doors. The switch for one side of the doors is far from beeing triggered. Looks like the other door should trigger it but it's not touching the wheel when closed. Wonder if that can have a play in the spindle not starting. There is a ihibit key for the door switches so maybe it's allready tested but worth checking once I get it powered up. I now got both the amphenol connectors so will solder it up tomorrow. Still no power available for testing. Can anyone confirm if I can ruin anything to test the machine off a 16A 3phase contact prolly with a decent voltage drop during startup? Not going to mill anything but would like to just dry run things and troubleshoot.
    Kira VTC 30-img_5177-jpg

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    Default Re: Kira VTC 30

    Good work so far! Impressed by your determination to build a proper home for your new mill. Wish I could give you a perfect answer as to the risk associated with running the control and servos with your limited electrical service... I'd guess it's unlikely you'll destroy anything. When you start the machine you're running the computer/CNC control and the display only. I'd guess you have sufficient power for that. If you enable servos you then need a fair bit or power as the amps start. Next, if you move an axis your asking for yet more power to supply a servo with power to move the table. Finally there is the spindle, lot's of power needed for that... You can take it in steps...

    Regarding door position switch: My J310 won't enable the servos until all the interlocks are closed. These are: Two NC cabinet switches, three NC axis limit switches (X,Y,Z). If you can get servos enabled you'll hear a BIG relay go "Ker-Chunk" and you may hear some 15khz whine from the amp. If you can get servos enabled you can try some slow axis moves and see how things run... As for the spindle, I'd wait until you have your new service installed before you fire that up...

    Lastly, this came into my inbox today. Pretty much sums up my early days of CNC...
    https://www.cnccookbook.com/10-thing...sletter+Oct+25


    Mike



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    Default Re: Kira VTC 30

    Thanks. I just know myself good enough that I will never fix the room if I don’t do it upfront Will try as you said and see what happens. I guess the electronics must be designed to withstand it.

    Thank you you for the link. Saved the page and going to read it now on a airplane trip. Perfect timing!

    Memoryman here on the forum also directed me to a 300page manual of the Fanuc 0M control system so lots of reading to do Love finding good documentation like this. It makes troubleshooting things much easier and less of a guesswork.



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    Default Re: Kira VTC 30

    Tomorrow I'm moving the machine into the new room so I had to get some work done while I had good access. Rigged myself with a soldering station and some gear to fix the amphenol contaxts on the Y servo motor.

    Kira VTC 30-img_5271-jpg

    Since I've forgotten to put on nuts/rings/clamps 100 times before I have this little trick of fixing them in correct order as the first thing I do. It's so easy to forget and you really don't want to solder 20 new connectors just to fit a forgotten ring
    Kira VTC 30-img_5272-jpg

    I had a wiring diagram for the cable/connectors but just to be on the safe side I disconnected the Z stepper cable and verified the connections with measuring the contacts. I really don't want to get it wrong so better safe than sorry. The schematics was correct so it was wasted time ^^
    Kira VTC 30-img_5273-jpg

    The "squid" is really helpfull since having two hands when soldering stuff like this is mission impossible.
    Kira VTC 30-img_5274-jpg

    Encoder connector done. Amphenol 20pins is now on my top 10 worst connectors to work with list. I don't think it's a good solution to have the cables loose inside the connector without anything taking up slack. It won't move much since it's inside a sleeve but I would prefer fixing it just to be safe. Might open it and fill it with silicone just to avoid it breaking over time due to vibrations. Good idea or not?
    Kira VTC 30-img_5277-jpg

    And the 4 pin male fitted to the power wires. This connector has been replaced before. The ground wire was really really short and made it hard but I got it in the end. Used some high temp silicone to seal the surface since I didn't have a grommet and there was none in place on the old contact.
    Kira VTC 30-img_5279-jpg

    And the final result. Will disconnect them tomorrow and do a new measurement to confirm that the wiring is ok. I did it now also but 00:30 in the night isn't the best time to be sure it's correct.
    Kira VTC 30-img_5281-jpg

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    Default Re: Kira VTC 30

    Had a tiny setback today. When just going over the machine to check that everything was OK I noticed that the power cable going into the spindle motor had a crack in the connector housing where it enters the motor. This must have happened when it got delivered with the crane I can't see any broken connectors so I think it's just the cover. Will try to clean up some tomorrow and see if it can be epoxied back together. The housing looked clean inside so I think the machine has been run with this issue. Hope I can repair it in situ as it looked like a lot of work to remove the motor.
    Kira VTC 30-img_5283-jpgKira VTC 30-img_5284-jpgKira VTC 30-img_5285-jpg

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