New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help


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Thread: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

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    Default New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    About a week ago I had my new to me J330 delivered and wired however I am unable to get a whole lot from it at this time. I have been in touch with ZPS for a manual and now have that and they are working to get me some electrical schematics as it is a 3 phase fan motor right now. The machine will power on and the driver boards are getting power, the control panel is at 24V and the main panel as well as the optical isolation driver appears to all have power. I get nothing on the CRT which has been piggybacked to go to a RG6 type connection and the monitor for that powers on but gives no display. While working on it a few nights ago I got a little gobbly-gook on the piggy backed tv and was able to get the spindle to spin at one very low rpm however that was all I was able to accomplish and now it is back to giving me nothing. So here are my questions:
    Is there a good spot to start troubleshooting the issues I am having or a common failure point?
    Do I try to track down the problem(s) and fix them or should I be looking at upgrading the electronic components (boards) to a newer system? The boards on this machine are impressively large and plentiful.
    If a conversion is in my future what do I have to replace and what do I keep assuming all of my motors are in good working order?

    The machine was taken out of service roughly 3 years ago and stored. I was in operation when removed from service and it was moved by professionals so I am sure they took great care in not jostling it around. According to the service tag this is a 1984 model. I am completely new to NC and have only manual experience so my questions will be vague and I will sound like a total doofus....please bear with me and help

    Thanks

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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    I might be able to help, but will need more info.

    What is the control, Autocon/Dynapath? System 10/20, Delta 10/20?

    Can you post some pics of the electrical/control components?



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help-dscn3659-jpgNew to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help-dscn3660-jpgNew to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help-dscn3661-jpgNew to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help-dscn3662-jpgNew to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help-dscn3663-jpgNew to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help-dscn3664-jpgNew to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help-dscn3665-jpg

    I am not sure what the control program is as I couldn't find an I.D. tag and there is no screen display at this time to see about a revision number. Hopefully this helps. I didn't grab a picture of the servos however they are Gould permanent magnet type # M113-a10k-900. The tag on the one that is still present is pretty well worn off and the other has been repaired at some point and the tag has been replaced with the outfit that repaired it.



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    Oh boy, thats a old system control. I think there is pretty much zero support for those now. A few years newer it would have had a dynapath/autocon control.



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    With the reading I have done most of the machines that are this vintage came with Dynapath S10 however without any display or a tag on the machine I have no idea. In the factory info I have they had one of 2 systems and it sound like the Dynapath S10 was prolific in these machines.



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    Quote Originally Posted by kemlin View Post
    With the reading I have done most of the machines that are this vintage came with Dynapath S10 however without any display or a tag on the machine I have no idea. In the factory info I have they had one of 2 systems and it sound like the Dynapath S10 was prolific in these machines.
    Sure doesn't look like any dynapath ive ever seen. Looks more like the second generation control tree made. Maybe bob from zps will check in. He knows all that stuff.

    Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    That is the System10, probably pre-Autocon/Dynapath when it was still Bendix.
    I had restored a Tree Jouryneyman 320 that originally came with a System10, but was already upgraded to a Delta10 with ServofDynamic servo amps before I bought it. I went ahead and upgraded it to a Delta 50.
    I have a .pdf file of the original wiring diagrams including the Bendix System 10 components. I tried to upload here but the file was to big. I can email it to you if you want.

    You might be able to get more info from Dynapath ( DynaPath )

    A lot of the old Tree mills with these vintage controls have been retrofitted with systems like Mach3 ( http://machmotion.com/cnc-kits/milli...-controls.html ), and offer a lot of newer features, but it's not cheap.



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    Thanks for the info. I did see another person that has the same machine and converted it to a pic based software with gecko 320 drivers and kept all of the original servos. Looks like he did it on the cheap which is where I want to be if I can't make this one run with what it has. I have electrical schematics to the tune of 85 pages coming from zps so hopefully early next week we can figure out if it is repairable within reason or if we are converting to Mach 3.



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    Hi Kemlin,

    Here's a copy of an email I sent to another fellow who was considering a retrofit:

    I did a retrofit on my 1985 2hp Tree J310 that came with a DP20. Servos are Baldor BIG-MHO 90vdc, amps are Servo Dynamics 1525. My guess is that your machine is similar and if your servos motors and amps are good you should keep them. In my opinion, if you choose Mach3 or Mach4 for running a servo based machine you need to use dedicated motion control hardware because you must maintain the feedback loop between the control, the amps and the servo motor encoders in order to get professional results and maintain safe control over your machine. First order of buisness will be to insure your amps, motors and encoders are all functional.

    For my retro-fit I choose a motion controller from CS-Labs. Here’s the link:
    Strona nie została znaleziona | CS-Lab

    I also purchased an MPG and MPG hardware control from CS-Labs. Link here:
    Strona nie została znaleziona | CS-Lab

    All of the above hardware will set you back about $1,000.00. You will also need a windows PC and a license for Mach 3 or 4 which runs $150. In my case I used a dell all-in-one pc that set me back about $500.00

    Another option for you is the KFLOP motion controller from Dynomotion. You would need the KFLOP with Kanalog setup which will set you back about $500.00. Here’s the links:
    Dynomotion Motion Control Boards for CNC Manufacturing and Robotics Applications
    Dynomotion Motion Control Boards for CNC Manufacturing and Robotics Applications
    Dynomotion offers free software (windows application) for CNC control called KMotionCNC and it looks quite nice. They also offer a Mach 3 plugin. I kind of wish I had discovered Dynomotion before I did my retrofit because I like the way their software looks and I would like to have the option of creating custom software for my machine using C rather than the VB scripting supported by Mach. The negative for KFLOP is that the interface is USB rather than Ethernet which is not as robust… Also adding an MPG to KFLOP will not be as “plug and play” as the CS-Labs is…

    Other options are:
    Vital Systems: Mach3 Mach4 Ethernet Motion Controller, CNC Retrofit, Machine Tools
    Galil: http://www.galilmc.com/motion-controllers

    Lastly, perhaps the cheapest option might be LinuxCNC with Mesa hardware. Plenty of folks have had success going that route. The version of Linux used supports the real-time interface necessary to insure safe servo control.

    Hope this helps! You can complete the retro-fit yourself as long as you are patient, understand basic AC and DC electrical principals and are able to use a volt/ohm meter. You will find a community of people like us who have or are doing retro-fits on the Mach3 support forums: http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php Look for the forum section “third party software/hardware”
    Feel free to contact me directly at mikecole@msn.com if I can answer any more questions.

    Good luck!
    Mike



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    Kemlin-
    I sent you a link to download the electrical diagrams for the old Bendix control. This could be a troubleshooting challenge if the issues are related to the control (vs the servo drives), with this being even earlier than the Autocon version, parts, programmed chips, etc are going to be real hard to find. Even with the system working, there will be extreme limitations to memory, CAM post file compatibility, no drip feed, etc.

    Mike posted a lot of great info on retro-fitting with modern systems. I know I would have gone the same route had I not found a Delta 50 system for cheap.


    Hi Mike! How is the 310 running??


    Bill



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    That doesn't appear to be a Bendix/Autocon/DynaPath System 10. I used to work for that company and the circuit boards would have had a logo and a seven-digit part number. What I do see is a reference to 'IIC', which I seem to recall was the controller that Tree was using when they switched to the Bendix control.



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    Quote Originally Posted by jagardner4 View Post
    That doesn't appear to be a Bendix/Autocon/DynaPath System 10. I used to work for that company and the circuit boards would have had a logo and a seven-digit part number. What I do see is a reference to 'IIC', which I seem to recall was the controller that Tree was using when they switched to the Bendix control.
    Wow, that's going way back, but you're right, even the Bendix units were housed in the black box with all of the cards contained inside weren't they? Even all the more reason to have to consider a retro fit.



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    Hi Bill,

    All good here in California! Hope all is well in your neck of the woods and that the current batch of IPA's are turning out delicious. I'm sure they are!

    My J310 is working great. I have recently upgraded to Mach4 and I'm liking it much better than Mach3. The plugin I use with CS-Labs hardware does not yet support spindle control but my spindle is not under CNC control yet... That may be a future project if I find I'm doing too much hand tapping. Very pleased with the precision I am able to get with the old girl despite the 500line encoders. I had a job the other day that required .675" circular pockets for press fit alignment receivers. I thought I'd need to drill and ream but no, I was able to pocket and get within .0005" and press the receivers in without any drama. I've switched my CAD/CAM work to Fusion 360 and it rocks! I know your a solidworks guy but if you have a chance, check out fusion.

    Back to Kemlin... I think you have a great machine if your going to use it in a non production environment and the iron is all good. Lot's of help here and elsewhere to help you through your repairs or retro-fit. The journey is a big part of the fun if your a machine nut and I suspect you are if your here :-)

    Mike



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    So I am planning to gut the entire thing however I have one hold up in the power supplies/supply for the Gecko drivers that I plan to use. Here is what I am planning on using...let me know if I have made a poor decision in what I have chosen as I am looking to get the parts sooner than later to get moving on this project. I looked around and feel PMDX has nice product and they return my E-mails which is very handy:
    PMDX-120 parallel port module
    PMDX-107 isolated speed control
    PMDX-126 B.O.B.
    cables for the above
    Gecko G320X drives
    New VFD (10hp)
    there are some other misc parts that I will be updating at the same time, little things like the E-stop
    I am curious to see if I can reuse my power supply to power the Gecko drives. I am having a hard time figuring what I need for power supply as the motors I have are awesome for reading the placard as they are old. I can tell you the power supply is a Getty N360 3 phase 1/2 wave version 11-1060-41 that has 240vac at 60hz with 12.5 amp rated motor current and 45 amps dc continuous max. The servos are Gould permanent magnet M113-a10k-900a series. Here is what they say:
    Back EMF Ke 34.2 v/krpm
    Torque constant Kt 2.89 lb-in/amp
    Rated current stall 12.5 amp
    Tach 9.5/krmp

    Please help me understand this so I can figure out what to do for a power supply.
    Don't know if it helps but I am planning on using mach software as it seems to be the most used and support should be good. Thanks in advance.



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    Hi Kemlin,

    The Gecko amps are great. I only hear good things about those amps. Looks like they should work well with your servos.

    Regarding you PMDX components... I strongly recommend you consider a motion controller if your going Mach3/4. If you spend just a couple hundred more dollars you will likely have superior results. Here's a good explanation of why you should separate the motion control work from windows/mach.

    Motion Control Boards Take Mach3 From Hobby Class to Industrial Grade, Part 1 - CNCCookbook CNCCookbook

    Hope this helps! Good luck!
    Mike



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    Your 330 looks a lot like a 320 we are retrofitting now. Our original electronics included a paper tape reader and the control panel looked exactly like yours. We had the same Axis motors as well. When we got the machine it had not been operational for a long while, so we convinced ourselves that trying to keep any of the original controls made little sense, I'm glad we decided to go that way as at the end of the day we will have a virtually new machine, We are going with the following basic setup and so far it all looks good with no real surprises.

    New VFD (ABB) on the spindle
    3 of 1 KW, Delta AC Servo motors and Drivers (Thinking that we may have gotten away with 750W units)
    Ethernet Smooth Stepper with C23 BOB
    LattePanda single board Computer
    Mach 4

    We are in for about $4300 Canadian $ so far (Approx $3200 USD) Not bad for a machine of this size. We have done some bargain hunting for electrical cabinets etc to keep the price down some. Not saying that our choices are better than anyone else's, its just another possible way to go. With all the available options these days you could spend a year figuring out how to get started. I had previously retrofitted a G704 mill so I had a little useful experience which always helps. Your plans to keep the existing axis motors will be less expensive than what we have done, we seriously considered doing the same but at the end of the day we opted to gut everything.

    You may have already mentioned this but have you checked the condition of your ball screws/nuts and measured the axis backlash? I would do that before you spend any money on the machine. Replacement ballscrews may be hard to find and or fairly expensive. Its certainly worth checking out before you jump into it.

    I just checked the date of your last post, so by now you either have this retrofit completed or canceled. How did it go after? How about an update?

    Jim



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    Kemlin
    Sorry about the date thing, I looked back at your post and misread your join date as the post date.

    Cheers
    Jim



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    I have all of the conversion parts purchased other than the software. I am reusing the back panel and that will house everything other than the PC that will run it which will go where the driver boards used to be. I ended up with Gecko G320X drives, Antek power supplies, Mitsubishi VFD, PMDX board and spindle drive and all new wire to eliminate potential for issues there as well. I think the only thing I am reusing is the breaker. I have the back panel all laid out and am ready to wire it at this point. Hopefully within the next week I can see how it works. here are some pics. I used a dryfall paint for the ceiling at my business, I had to buy 5 gallons at a time...so with 4.9 gallons left over I decided to paint it black on the outside. I had enough grey to redo the inside of the cabinets, they were pretty rough looking before.New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help-img_1542-jpgNew to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help-img_1543-jpg



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    So now I am buggered. The guy that I had helping me (the brains of the operation) has gotten busy at work and has been unable to help me for about a month. I have been struggling to get this machine up and running. After finding out the hard way the power supplies were all over voltage and smoking 2 gecko drives I have made almost no progress. I have the new drives coming and the replacement power supplies remounted. I have a mitsubishi VFD (FR-D720-238-NA) and am having a great deal of trouble making the VFD and the spindle motor work together. I keep getting a thermal overload fault. I called Mitsubishi and they pointed me in a general direction but to no avail. The real problem here is I have only the knowledge that I have gleaned from the manuals and forums and have never done this sort of conversion before. I am not sure if the VFD is sending the signal for the over temp or if it is coming from the spindle. The wires that used to go to the Fanuc VFD (red/black, Blue/black, green/black, white/black) are not hooked up to anything. Outside of that I have the isolation board hooked to the freq drive but am really trying to program at this point for manual use until I can get the rest of it going. Any suggestions to help me learn/get this thing running?



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    Default Re: New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

    Sounds like your spindle motor might be toast? Since you have 3-phase how does the motor run when wired directly to your shop 3-phase? If it runs fine then check the wiring to your VFD and from VFD to motor. For the fault you are seeing the VFD is saying your motor is drawing too much current for too long. You can increase acceleration times in the parameters but I'd be surprised if the defaults are not working.You also have a VFD setting for motor type (standard motor, constant torque) try a different setting...

    Mike



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New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help

New to me J330 and I'm totally lost looking for help