Got my Tormach tooling today

[fc911c]

Hi all

I was wondering how your run out is on your ER holder's? I am seeing .002 which I think is quite high. I also ordered a few set screw holders they are better than the ER. The 3/8 has .0005 and the 1/2 has .0015. The small drill chuck has .001 which I think is great. Is this normal or did I get a bad one. I have a ETM ER 40 that are great and figured the ER 20 should be better than the set screw.

Paying $82.00 v/s $20.00 for less accuracy just doesn't cut it.

Thanks
Frank

[philbur]

Is it the collet or the holder, or both. The Tormach system is to DIN 6499. An ER collet system standard precision according to DIN 6499 is something like 0.0006" at 0.4". Have a look here:

http://www.centaurtools.com/trainingprograms.asp

You have to remember though that you are mounting a collet in a collet, so concentricty can suffer.

I have 3 Tormach holders and a set of collets and they are all equal to or better than DIN 6499. I can't detect any runout in the holder tapers themselves when using a 0.01mm dial gauge.

I would talk to the supplier about a replacement, after you have checked if it is the collet or the holder, if you haven't already.

Regards
Phil

Hi all

I was wondering how your run out is on your ER holder's? I am seeing .002 which I think is quite high. I also ordered a few set screw holders they are better than the ER. The 3/8 has .0005 and the 1/2 has .0015. The small drill chuck has .001 which I think is great. Is this normal or did I get a bad one. I have a ETM ER 40 that are great and figured the ER 20 should be better than the set screw.

Paying $82.00 v/s $20.00 for less accuracy just doesn't cut it.

Thanks
Frank

[fc911c]

Is it the collet or the holder, or both. The Tormach system is to DIN 6499. An ER collet system standard precision according to DIN 6499 is something like 0.0006" at 0.4". Have a look here:

http://www.centaurtools.com/trainingprograms.asp

You have to remember though that you are mounting a collet in a collet, so concentricty can suffer.

I have 3 Tormach holders and a set of collets and they are all equal to or better than DIN 6499. I can't detect any runout in the holder tapers themselves when using a 0.01mm dial gauge.

I would talk to the supplier about a replacement, after you have checked if it is the collet or the holder, if you haven't already.

Regards
Phil

Hello thanks for the reply.

yes it's in the holder. I checked it on my BP mill bench mill and my lathe. I will send them an email saying I want a replacement.

How is the run out on your set screw holder's? The 3/8 holder is spot on, the 1/2 holder is a little sloppy. Is .0015+ acceptable?

Thanks
Frank

[odonatas]

Woudn't it be more accurate to check the ER taper by setting the 3/4 shank in a v-block rather than chucking it in a lathe or BP? Setting the V-block up so it's inclinded will help to minimize axial motion while rotating the TTS tool.

Odo

[fc911c]

Woudn't it be more accurate to check the ER taper by setting the 3/4 shank in a v-block rather than chucking it in a lathe or BP? Setting the V-block up so it's inclinded will help to minimize axial motion while rotating the TTS tool.

Odo

yes I tried that also same results .

thanks
Frank

[Tormach]

Hi guys,

The tooling has always been well within specification. When this issue comes up it's usually traceable to the spindle face. The operating theory of the system is that the collet moves up while it closes, drawing the tool very tight against the spindle face. The principle really does work. This means that if the spindle is not absolutely square to rotation, the tool will go out of square as it is drawn up against the spindle. The manual is at http://www.tormach.com/document_libr...al%20Rev-C.pdf and there is a section titled "preparing the spindle". It lays out a procedure for cleaning up the spindle face.

This procedure really is necessary. Since no other tooling system references the spindle face, few companies actually bother to square up their face. Some Chinese manufacturers may actually finish off the face of the spindle by hand grinding on a disk sander.

There is another way to test for this, aside from the procedure mentioned in the manual. If you install the tool holder about 1/8" low, it cannot reference against the spindle face. If the apparent TIR is good when mounted low, but bad when mounted properly, then it's the spindle face, not the tool, that is taking it out. If the TIR is also poor when mounted low, then the tool is actually bad and we want it back. We have sent out thousands of TTS holders. So far I have seen two that have been out of spec. I'm not saying it couldn't happen. I will say that it's exceptional and we (Tormach) would like to take care of it. Please contact us if it's really out.

Greg Jackson
Tormach LLC

[fc911c]

I have contacted your company by email and am waiting for a responce. The spindle face has no runout at all. Turns out the the Er collet had some debrey
on it and after clean up all is well. The 1/2 holder's are a differant story, the bored hole is a bit big on the two that I have.


Frank

Hi guys,

The tooling has always been well within specification. When this issue comes up it's usually traceable to the spindle face. The operating theory of the system is that the collet moves up while it closes, drawing the tool very tight against the spindle face. The principle really does work. This means that if the spindle is not absolutely square to rotation, the tool will go out of square as it is drawn up against the spindle. The manual is at http://www.tormach.com/document_libr...al%20Rev-C.pdf and there is a section titled "preparing the spindle". It lays out a procedure for cleaning up the spindle face.

This procedure really is necessary. Since no other tooling system references the spindle face, few companies actually bother to square up their face. Some Chinese manufacturers may actually finish off the face of the spindle by hand grinding on a disk sander.

There is another way to test for this, aside from the procedure mentioned in the manual. If you install the tool holder about 1/8" low, it cannot reference against the spindle face. If the apparent TIR is good when mounted low, but bad when mounted properly, then it's the spindle face, not the tool, that is taking it out. If the TIR is also poor when mounted low, then the tool is actually bad and we want it back. We have sent out thousands of TTS holders. So far I have seen two that have been out of spec. I'm not saying it couldn't happen. I will say that it's exceptional and we (Tormach) would like to take care of it. Please contact us if it's really out.

Greg Jackson
Tormach LLC

[Don Clement]

I also received my TTS toolholders today. The TTS toolholders will be used on my old Rockwell vertical mill and also on the Tormach when it arrives in March. TIR at the Rockwell spindle face was a couple of tenths. I cleaned the spindle face and taper by running the spindle at 4.4K rpm and holding a piece of 3M plastic embedded abrasive (purple Scothbrite) against the inside taper and spindle face by hand. The result was TIR of the ER holder was <0.0005” Both ½” and 3/8” screw holders were better than that at a couple of tenths. The drill chuck 0.003”. The TTS system works as advertised. Tormach, good job! I will be ordering many more toolholders.

Don Clement
Running Springs, California

[BlueFin]

Anybody got any info on how much the TTS slips out when heavy cutting? I am thinking that I will set up tool #1 as a 1/2" roughing end mill and tool #2 as a 1/2" finisher. So if I left something like .025" for the finisher to cut on the Z axis would that be enough on a small bar stock piece? 2" x 3"? Then the rest of the tools would be the usual 1/4" and below stuff.

[keen]

Hi - It is not possible to quote specifics as the grip and upward pull of the
3/4" R8 collet if affected by many variables. I do heavy machining in tough steels at times and have found:

Check you have a suitable thrust face for the draw bar on the top of the spindle (I use a nitrided thick machined washer with moly grease)

Check the draw bar thread is clean, as smooth as possible and lub it with moly grease.

Check the R8 bore and 3/4" TTS Collet is clean and lub it with a not oily moly coating - you dont want this to migrate to the 3/4" shank surface

Which should be clean and dry.

A lot of grip and upward force can then be applied. This will withstand fairly heavy cuts on medium size cutters.

You should aim to never enter the zone where the TTS is levered down by the cutting force. - You can quickly have a nasty meltdown.

There are other posts already on this subject you can search for.

[Steve Seebold]

I got my PCNC1100 in July 2011. The first job I ran had some heavy cutting with a 3/8 3 flute end mill in some 6061 aluminum. I tried to take a 1/2 inch depth of cut making a slot.

Doing that, the cutter pulled down and went through the bottom of the part.

I learned then that the best way (for me anyway) was to create a drilling routine and do the heavy metal removal with the Z axis.

As for run out, my holders all run within a couple of tenths or closer.

When I bought my machine I bought 4 each 1/4, 5/16, 3/8 and 1/2 inch set screw holders ans 6 each ER 20 and ER 16 collet holders.

I learned when I owned a real CNC shop that you can't have too many tool holders. I had 2 CNC mills and I had 75 CAT 40 tool holders.

I run my PCNC1100 12 to 14 hours. EVERY DAY. Will I get over that? Probably not.

[ImagineRobots]

I got my PCNC1100 in July 2011. The first job I ran had some heavy cutting with a 3/8 3 flute end mill in some 6061 aluminum. I tried to take a 1/2 inch depth of cut making a slot.

Doing that, the cutter pulled down and went through the bottom of the part.

.......

If you have pull out problems on the TTS system try using some anti-seize compound between the spindle and collet to reduce friction. I found this video from NYCCNC to be very helpful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imu1jhMJBZc&list=UUe0IyK4ntgdPTTjsxjvyHPg&index=5&feature=plcp]Tormach Tooling System: Maximizing Performance and Preventing Collet Slip - YouTube