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Am I the only one with Tormach problems? Hello,
In December of 2011, I bought a PCNC 770. Since then, this machine has been nothing but a problem.
The first issue was the spindle wouldn't turn on. I eventually traced the problem back to a bad connection on the headers on the main board. Once the headers were re-soldered, the problem was fixed. In the process, I replaced the green header connectors with better ones from DigiKey as the original connectors were cheap and the screws were soft. I suppose I could have called Tormach, for help, but I had already troubleshot the problem and knew where the problem was. Besides, it was the weekend and I could either fix the machine in an hour or wait days.
Then, I bought the 4th axis rotary table. The stepper controller module had bent fins. While investigating, I noticed a rattle. So, opened the case and found a loose screw. I never did figure out where the screw belonged as there wasn't a place to put it. The rotary table had a scratched base and I carefully removed the scratches, with a razor blade, as the rotary table would rock on the table. When I finally got everything together, the rotary table seized up. (Yes, I had oiled it.) After I removed the stepper motor and adjusted the backlash, it worked fine. In all fairness, maybe the backlash needs to be adjusted and is not adjusted at the factory. I don't know. But, given the warnings about putting oil in the rotary table, I would have thought that if I needed to adjust the backlash beforehand that it would have been mentioned.
The coolant tank leaked. Fortunately, I found the leak before I put coolant into it. I had the tank in place and, because of a little way oil in it, it leaked out onto the floor.
Another issue is that the screw holes, where the splash guard and the stand are screwed together, don't all line up.
I bought the spindle load meter. After installing it, I discovered that the spindle light didn't turn on. Two or three hours later, after considerable troubleshooting and after downloading the manufacturer's book on the VFD, I was able to find the setting and change it.
The latest problem is the spindle. I had been running a job with a 3/32 end mill and had the spindle turning at 9,000 RPM's. Lately, the machine started making a loud noise when the spindle shut down. After tracing the problem, and contacting Tormach for support, they sent me a another spindle cartridge. I went to replace the spindle cartridge, today, and find that the bolt holes do not line up.
Has anybody else had these problems or do I have a lemon? I am starting to feel like the guy on the left.
Thanks,
Brian
I have had similar issues with my first CNC machine, but not the Tormach. Sounds like you've had a pretty rough start, but you are on the right path with the skills to make it happen. Is the hole alignment something that can be corrected? How did the original spindle rotate once out of the machine? You might want to check for any binding during the install.
Jim
Hello,
The replacement spindle cartridge fits fine and doesn't bind. It's just that the holes don't line up. I checked the holes, on the original cartridge, and measuring edge-to-edge around the circle, they vary from 1.660 to 1.675. The distance between the holes, on the new cartridge, vary from 1.650 to 1.730. (I could have done a better job trigg'ing out the holes and drilling them on a Hardinge TM.)
I didn't even check into whether the alignment could be corrected as this is a brand new cartridge from Tormach and don't want to mess with it. I assume that the cartridge is hardened and probably would be miserable to fix. However, I haven't done anything with it.
I did re-install the old cartridge in the event that I need to use the machine. I figure I can at least use it until Tormach fixes the problem or the spindle bearings go out completely....whichever comes first.
I've got a couple e-mails in to Tormach discussing the issues at hand and my irritation.
Edit to add:
The original spindle rotates ok out of the machine. When out of the machine, the bearings don't sound bad; but, I didn't know what they sounded like before the problem occurred and running at 9,000 RPMs is quite different than turning the spindle by hand.
I've found that the problem can be quieted down by slowing the spindle down about 1500 RPMs, or so, at a time with a pause in between. (The noise is mainly heard on starts and stops...it is a loud crashing sound of sorts.)
Another thing, that really frustrates me, is I really like the machine. With a little bit of quality control, it could have been a great product.
Regards,
Brian
Originally Posted by cheetahcnc
Can't speak for others. I've had my Series 1 1100 since '07 with no real issues to speak of. I mean, there is already maintenance to do on any machine, but nothing systemic from the factory.
I hope you get the spindle issue resolved quickly.
Ditto for my 1100 no real issues since '07. What really great about Tormach is that it is possible to upgade my series I to perform just like the latest 1100. In addition Tormach customer service is second to none.
Don
I had some minor issues like the probe port being mis-wired and a few other issues quality control should have taken care of but nothing major. Like the others said Tormach is alway right there to fix any issues. I also had my spindle cartridge replaced on my 1100 because it would randomly make strange noises. I do not think tormach quality control is any worse than any other company that sells machines for under 20 grand though and is probably better than 95% of them. The support is better than probably 99% of them...
Hello,
I really wasn't too bothered by the other issues I listed and only list them to indicate all of the other problems I had so far. I figured once I worked through any problems that the machine would be fine. For the most part, the other problems were minor. I've been using the machine, for my business, and the tolerances it holds are great. I have a fixture that is setup for 10 parts at a time and it will hold +-0.002, or so, on all 10 parts.
I just don't see how a company (asian or otherwise) could build a spindle cartridge (a high precision item) and screw up a bolt hole circle. Having my spindle cartridge fail under warranty is annoying; but, with proper customer support not a problem. I really wasn't too bothered about it and wouldn't have started this post. Having the replacement cartridge not fit, due to the bolt holes being improperly drilled and after all of the other problems, is an outrage.
I have two "warm" e-mails in to Tormach about this and hope to have a quick resolution. I know if I sent somebody replacement parts, that were unusable, I'd be ready to crawl in a hole somewhere.
Thus far, it appears that nobody else has had this number of problems. Before this, I was considering buying another Tormach if I were to need to expand my production capacity. I am re-considering that possibility as I am starting to believe that my Tormach works best when it is turned off. Quite frankly, the Tormach is perfectly sized and holds acceptable tolerances for what I do. However, it needs to work.
Regards,
Brian
Just so you know- a few people have had issues, and Tormach has worked hard to resolve them, you aren't an island. My stratagy would be to work with Tormach to fix these problems before whining on a message board, but me and you are as differrent as they come so I can respect your route just as well.
I haven't seen the bolt hole pattern mistake, but I don't think its outside the realm of possibility to think that there are a couple different mounting configurations and perhaps you got the wrong one.
Also, based on how you are dealing with this, I would suggest you don't buy another tormach. It seems like a full featured mill like a Haas would suit you much better since you could probably get a certified technician in your shop in an instants notice to deal with the problems your machine will inevitably have- you'll never get that with Tormach, but with Tormach you'd also probably save $1k every time you have an issue.
Hello,
I wouldn't have a problem buying another Tormach...if the replacement part fit. I don't mind having a few problems. The issue is that you eventually reach the point where the number of problems really add up.
The machine is perfect for my application. I don't need a Haas. I don't have a problem troubleshooting and repairing a few minor issues. Even the spindle cartridge problem didn't bother me...until I find that the replacement part didn't fit. Quite frankly, I'd rather spend an hour troubleshooting a problem than a day waiting for a technician to arrive. In addition, if I spend time troubleshooting, I learn the machine better and can fix future problems faster. The VFD problem, for example, was pretty interesting as I never realized that the VFD had so many features. It is really quite an interesting component.
To give you an idea of my background, I have spent around 15 years in all aspects of IT (except help desk...dont' go there) and have some electronics troubleshooting experience in addition to around 10 years of experience machining.
The main reason I started this thread is because I haven't seen anywhere where anybody had a whole chain of problems. If the spindle problem was the only problem, I wouldn't be here. I just figured I'd ask if I was alone and just happened to get a lemon or something.
Regards,
Brian
If you do not think you need a Haas but do not want another Tormach then what would you buy? Do you think anything else out there that is in the same range as the Tormach will not have similar issues? These are all Asian machines and what you are buying is the US support which I highly doubt anyone is better at than Tormach. I would be just as pissed if I took my spindle out and found out the replacement did not fit but do you expect them to open and test fit every component they sell? Personally, I would hope that they at least test fit or measure at least one from every batch. Almost every item I have purchased lately has crappy fit, finish, manuals, etc.. From a plow for my quad to a 8 grand laser engraver. The manuals are written in broken English or non existant, bolts do not fit holes, shoddy wiring, etc.. It is the same when I purchase product from China, Taiwan, etc.. I can get it from 1/4 the price but it is usually 1/4 the quality as well. I guess the old saying is true that you cannot have your cake and eat it too..
Wow. Where do I begin?
First off, I expected problems. Any time you have something complicated, there is a high potential for problems. I do not mind that.
I honestly don't understand how you screw up a bolt hole circle on a mass-produced part. With CNC, and a fixture, you could produce them like the proverbial hotcakes and be within a couple of thousandths without problems. You could even do that on a manual machine, with a rotary table, for that matter. From my personal experience, the Tormach could do these bolt-hole circles with better precision than the part that I received. After some experience, I can hold a couple of thousandths all day long on the Tormach.
I am glad that you mentioned support. Quite frankly, product support is where a company can have a chance to really shine. Let's say that a bad part is sent out. By responding quickly, which Tormach did, a company can do great. It doesn't matter that the original item was bad as long as the replacement works. Since replacement parts shouldn't happen very often, it shouldn't take much effort to ensure that the replacement part is within spec. This did not happen. The replacement part was sent out quickly and arrived in good order. However, it is worse than the original as it doesn't even fit.
I've even seen a posting where somebody claimed that they could get a "boatload" of positive PR by sending out a defective part and fixing it right away. As a business owner, I would never suggest such a thing. However, if a customer has a problem I am very responsive and make an effort to double-check the replacement part for it is quite possible that I would only get a second chance.
What you are talking about sounds like a great opportunity. If people are starting to expect mediocrity, this is an opportunity for a company to really excel. All they have to do is to improve the product quality and keep a reasonable price. With the automation available today, this really shouldn't be a problem.
With the product, that I sell, if a certain hole is off by so much as 0.004" I have had people post pictures of it and display it openly on discussion forums. I take the extra effort to make sure that this does not happen as I don't like to see these pictures. If I do have a problem, I also don't sweep it under the proverbial rug. I have gone so far as to post about it and what I am doing to fix it.
Since you mentioned manuals, I will add that Tormach's manuals are excellent. It is nice to have a manual that has the detail these manuals have in an age where companies are supplying "manuals" that look like a comic strip.
On another note, I was even able to get the VFD manuals downloaded right off of the website of the company that makes the VFD. Quite frankly, the VFD configuration problem, that I had, may at some point have sold me another VFD as I may have use for one in the future.
Regards,
Brian
I agree with the hole issue and have no idea how that could have been done or slipped past quality control. Some of Tormach's items like the 4th axis was shipped with a quality control check sheet with specs, etc. Not sure why they would not do that with a item as critical as the spindle.
My brother bought a chevy pickup brand new one time and it seemed to spend more time in the shop than it did with him over the first six months or so.. This is just to say there will always be that one machine, product, or customer that will have a series of issues, etc.. It just sucks when it happens to be your machine or your product,etc.. xxxx happens.. Luckily in this case Tormach will be there to fix the issue and I would not be suprised if they overnight you a second spindle after they double check the holes.
I think Asian suppliers either think that all we want is cheap crap or that is all they know how to make. I fully agree that if some of these US suppliers of Asian products spent about the time it took me to write this out to go over every item they sell then they could set themselves apart from all the others. They need to demand that the quality is good enough for the product they are selling. When your customer knows they are buying a inexpensive Asian product that leaves a ton of room for you to deliver a quality product and impress the crap out of them like Tormach generally does.
I am pretty sure plenty of others have had just as many issues as you have had but with the way Tormach support is they get the issue fixed before they get upset enough to post about it on the forums.
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