Am I the only one with Tormach problems?

[Don Clement]

This anonymous guy's only posts are a whine about Tormach posted on a weekend when Tormach is not open. How can anyone take this guy seriously?

[Jaynboom]

I had a stepper-driver go bad about two weeks after getting my 770.

Tormach helped me diagnose it over the phone, and shipped one out right away. They even included a pre-paid shipping label to return the old one to them.

I'm very happy with my 770. And, I'm really happy with their service and support.

[tbaker2500]

I think what you're running up against here, Rif, is that your proffered a complaint which none of us can do anything about, and appears to have no resolution other than "It shouldn't have happened." It just kinda seems to fall into the "*&^* happens" category. I spent 5 hours buying and installing a new oven Saturday. After tons of lifting and hauling, I open it to find the oven has its top smashed in. After spending another hour trying to get it returned, they find out that the inventory count was wrong, and I have to drive another hour to the next store to get one. Long of it all was, I lifted several hundred pounds moving various stoves, spend a lot of money and wasted a whole day. Could this have been prevented is the store opened and tested every item? Yes. Would that drive the cost way up? Yep, and then people would complain because the item wasn't fresh and in the box.

*$^# happens. If Tormach is sending you a correct one, I don't see what else there is to say, really.

However, if you are looking at starting a competing company, which you implied that there was room for, go for it. It's a lot harder than it seems.

[MetalShavings]

I've had my 770 for several months now and to date the only thing I could call a major-problem was the limit-switch on my X-Axis having intermittent failures.

I did all the trouble shooting recommended in the manual and all the trouble shooting recommended by the Tormach tech support guys but, I was still having problems with this switch doing what it was supposed to do every time.

I knew it was one of those random bad switches we hear about from time to time. I also knew that Tormach would send me a knew one if I continued to have problems with it. It was kind of hard to convince them that I knew what I was talking about when I suspected a bad limit-switch.

They kept leaning more toward bad wiring or bad position of the switch itself.

Long story short; they sent me a new limit-switch and the problem was solved as soon as I installed it.

I do recall when I first assembled my mill that few if any of the splash-guard holes lined up very well. They were close enough so that I could get them to work though.

I got to hand it to Tormach's tech support department. They really are helpful.

MetalShavings

[beanbag]

At least you're not like that poor guy VaderSpade.

[Rif]

Hello,

I am fully aware that nobody can do anything about this and I posted it on the weekend. However, I was really wondering if I am the only one with a machine that has had an entire chain of problems. Like I said earlier, if the spindle was the only problem, I wouldn't have posted anything and only myself and Tormach would know about it.

Tormach' s tech support has been very helpful and sent me a new spindle cartridge with little hesitation. My gripe is that after this entire chain of events, that could have been prevented by better QC, that my replacement spindle cartridge is even less useful than the bad one as I can't even get half the bolts to go into the holes.

If I just had one thing go wrong, with it, I would be quite pleased. However, I keep having different things go wrong with it all the time. This PCNC 770 is a machine that has great potential and is well designed. I always figured that once I got the "bugs" out of it it would give me many years of useful service. The thing is, that so far, I count about 7 problems in 4 months. To be fair, I only contacted Tormach about the spindle problem as it is clear that I can't easily repair that one myself. (I did inquire about the machine table shifting on shutdown and found out that it was normal. I am not counting that.) Tormach's manuals and instructions are excellent and the e-mail support was top notch. Where they failed was by sending me a part that I cannot even use to replace a part that is failing.

As far as being anonymous, ok, I usually only lurked on this board. On the homeshopmachinist board, I am Rif. On the Practical machinist board, I am Rif. On the RepRap forums and RepRap IRC, I am reifsnyderb. I am also the guy who wrote the Xoops DMS module and the FDISK program for FreeDOS. So, please feel free to ask around.

To repeat, my main purpose, of this posting, was to find out if I am alone in my issues or if all of these issues are common.

In the end, I am hoping to eventually have all of the problems worked through and have a good machine. So, far, I don't see the end in sight.

Edit to add: No, I have no plans to start any kind of competing company. I merely meant that if people now expect mediocrity, that there is plenty of opportunity for a company to come out on top by going the extra step. This was not directed at Tormach, but at any company.

Regards,

Brian

[David Bord]

I have a very early machine and had some challenges. Tormach was top notch in supporting me. Sorry you have had these problems. Probably more than you deserve. I'm pretty damn sure the folks at Tormach feel very bad you are having these problems.

At this point all they can do is try and help you get it right.

One things for sure, I have not seen a company of this class machine come anywhere close to the level of engineering, quality control or service that Tormach does.

I hope you get through this and are happily making chips soon.

David

[TXFred]

Tormach does a great job of standing behind their machines. But at the end of the day, it is a complex machine that is made in China. There's no way to do quality control on every part of an assembled mill, so most of the QC has to happen overseas before the machine is assembled.

You do appear to have gotten a lemon, but give Tormach a chance to work things out. There aren't many complaint threads on this forum, and there's a good reason for that.

Mention has been made of Vaderspade, and you can find his threads easily enough. One thing to note is that very early on, he started talking about lawyering up. That was, in my opinion, a huge mistake. The minute you begin making threats, it changes the nature of your relationship with Tormach. It limits what they can do. And it creates unnecessary hostility with a company that you're depending on to fix your mill.

You initially asked about problems with other mills. Here's what I've encountered on mine.
1. Bad weld on a hinge on the stand, hidden by putty. I re-welded it myself.
2. Dry connection to the Z axis brake.
3. Noisy z-axis. A breakin program fixed this.
4. Bad wall wart for the power drawbar solenoid.
5. Defective (too short) drawbar that only engaged the collet by three turns.
6. Broken fitting on the oiler system.
Every problem other than the hinge was handled by Tormach at no cost to me.

I hope that every potential buyer reads this bit. It would save a lot of confusion.
Tormach can't say this in their advertising, but **** is gonna happen with a new mill. Even Haas and Mazak's come broken from the factory sometimes. The difference is that with those machines, you pay a lot more to have a tech come out troubleshoot any setup problems. Part of the compromise of a Tormach is that you will have to handle that yourself in order to save a pile of money. But you can call Tormach and get advice. And when you call, ask the man who helps to troubleshoot what kind of education he has. Here's a hint. He has a degree in Engineering. That's some pretty impressive customer support.

The short version is, if you're not up to a little troubleshooting, then you're best off not getting a CNC.

Cheers,
Frederic

[ProPixelMedia]

I'm sorry if I'm posting this in the wrong section but I can't seem to find a better section-- Is anyone thinking of selling their PCNC 1100? I might be in the market to buy one soon. I appreciate any advice that you might have. Thank you

[Bob La Londe]

Mention has been made of Vaderspade, and you can find his threads easily enough. One thing to note is that very early on, he started talking about lawyering up. That was, in my opinion, a huge mistake.

I read that entire thread, and "lawyering up" was not "early on" as you put it. Whether or not discussing legal action was a good move or not is up for debate at worst. I have been following this board for some time and other folks have had similar problems. Nobody has come back and said that the problem is fixed. VaderSpader got his money back and moved on. He could still be fighting his problems if he had not.

To the OP, you already know my opinion is that Tormach is a high end hobby machine. High end, but hobby still. What amuses me is that I have spent less time getting cheaper machines working to my needs than some Tormach users have.

As to few complaints. One reason is many people come on a forum and read about other folks complaints first. They see that there is a certain amount of unpleasant response and they just lurk around hoping somebody else gets the problem fixed. The other is from everything I have seen the machine is really not all that bad.

I despise the, "if you can not handle a few problems..." responses that sometimes come out. Come on. If they wanted to fix machines they would have a bought a kit or a set of plans. They wanted to make parts. Nobody buys a brand new machine and expects to have to fix it right out of the box. Not until they have experienced it a few times anyway, and discovered that some industries do business that way.

It may be thats the way it is, but nobody expects that from their first brand new machine. Its pretty heartbreaking to work and build business to the point that you can afford to buy a new machine. Even a "cheap" machine like a Tormach (as compared to a Haas) and then have to fix it not once, but several times basically out of the box.

"What do you expect for only $XXXX.XX dollars?" is not much better. Maybe you have that much money to spend and not know if you can start using the equipment or not. Maybe you do not even have a grasp of what things really cost because you work in somebody elses shop. The fact is if I want to spend $10K (or whatever) I have to bring in a hell of a lot more money than that. Maybe $80K or $100K maybe more in some businesses in gross revenue must be generated to buy a $10K machine. That is if I do not eat, pay bills, pay the rent, pay employees, or whatever else I would have done with that money. In other words I have to generated $100K in EXTRA revenue to buy a $10K machine. That is a lot of work to generate that much revenue. If I buy a machine with it I have to make back its cost, plus the cost of not having that money for however long it takes, plus a reasonable return on the machine. If that machine has problems that is all that much longer I am out the money I sweated to earn.

Then there is the other less heard comment. "You know they only make $XXX.XX on the sale of those machines." So freaking what! I still had pay the full price of the machine. 100% of that full price is subtracted from my immediate income. Its a big deal and it is personal. Not just business.

The one that really kills me is the derision apparent in comments like, "If your whole business plan is around having your machine work, maybe you should have bought two of them." Oh, you have got to be kidding me. We already talked about what it really costs to just buy one. You "HOPE" that it will earn enough to buy another one.

Now, next time somebody posts with a problem...

... it will probably be the same old thing. It is on every group whether is Verizon Cell Phones, Harley motorcycles, or Ranger Bass Boats. Manufacturer based forums always have a certain amount of that. Often with no actual help or information.

(See I got through this entire post with out using the word fanboy. Oh, Darn! Almost. LOL.)

[rowbare]

When I finally got everything together, the rotary table seized up. (Yes, I had oiled it.) After I removed the stepper motor and adjusted the backlash, it worked fine. In all fairness, maybe the backlash needs to be adjusted and is not adjusted at the factory. I don't know. But, given the warnings about putting oil in the rotary table, I would have thought that if I needed to adjust the backlash beforehand that it would have been mentioned.

Sorry you are having problems with your machine. I hope you get them all sorted quickly.

In the manual for the rotary products Tormach states:

"PRIOR TO FIRST USE THE ROTARY TABLE MUST BE OILED AND BACKLASH SHOULD BE ADJUSTED."

"Should" is a bit weak. Clearly in your case it should have been "Must".

bob

[David Bord]

Tormach does a great job of standing behind their machines. But at the end of the day, it is a complex machine that is made in China. There's no way to do quality control on every part of an assembled mill, so most of the QC has to happen overseas before the machine is assembled.

You do appear to have gotten a lemon, but give Tormach a chance to work things out. There aren't many complaint threads on this forum, and there's a good reason for that.

Mention has been made of Vaderspade, and you can find his threads easily enough. One thing to note is that very early on, he started talking about lawyering up. That was, in my opinion, a huge mistake. The minute you begin making threats, it changes the nature of your relationship with Tormach. It limits what they can do. And it creates unnecessary hostility with a company that you're depending on to fix your mill.

....snip...

I hope that every potential buyer reads this bit. It would save a lot of confusion.
Tormach can't say this in their advertising, but **** is gonna happen with a new mill. Even Haas and Mazak's come broken from the factory sometimes. The difference is that with those machines, you pay a lot more to have a tech come out troubleshoot any setup problems. Part of the compromise of a Tormach is that you will have to handle that yourself in order to save a pile of money. But you can call Tormach and get advice. And when you call, ask the man who helps to troubleshoot what kind of education he has. Here's a hint. He has a degree in Engineering. That's some pretty impressive customer support.

The short version is, if you're not up to a little troubleshooting, then you're best off not getting a CNC.

Cheers,
Frederic

Well said Fred, 100% agreed.

David