Tool Changers Ideas died?????

[R.DesJardin]

Did all of the work to make a tool changer for the Tormach cease?
I haven't seen anything about it recently. I realize it's not actually the changer but the locking of the tool holder in that is the hiccup. So what's up?

[sharpshooter90]

Originally Posted by R.DesJardin Did all of the work to make a tool changer for the Tormach cease? I haven't seen anything about it recently. I realize it's not actually the changer but the locking of the tool holder in that is the hiccup. So what's up?

The idea was essentially stillborn from the beginning. Even when the designer announced its availability, it was nothing more than a tool holder device. The key element was the automatic drawbar, which was not perfected or tested. Besides having been designed for a specific machine, which severely limited the potential market, the entire concept was impractical for the chosen market. In an economic climate where people were re-financing their homes to take cruise ship vacations, there would have been those who would spend 3-4000.00 just to watch this thing change a tool by itself. But in 2009, the reality is that its far more practical to put a pause in the program and spend 30 seconds to change the tool by hand. Beyond that, any mechanism like that will not be perfected until 100 units are in the field, so the first guys out will spend far more time working on the the thing than it saves in run time.

[R.DesJardin]

Well my problem is I need 4-7 tools to make my parts, some of the machine time is only 30-60sec(center drilling and drilling). If I can't walk away from the machine for more than a minute or two then I need a tool changer. Parts would be cheaper to make because I would be doing something else instead of standing at the machine. Several thousand dollars for a 10 tool changer in my opinion is not out of line since I spent $18,000+ from Tormach with all I bought, I easily could have spent several thousand more on additional tooling and probably eventually will. If I get too much busier I'll have to spend another chunk of change on a Haas Minimill I guess.

[sharpshooter90]

Originally Posted by R.DesJardin Well my problem is I need 4-7 tools to make my parts, some of the machine time is only 30-60sec(center drilling and drilling). If I can't walk away from the machine for more than a minute or two then I need a tool changer. Parts would be cheaper to make because I would be doing something else instead of standing at the machine. Several thousand dollars for a 10 tool changer in my opinion is not out of line since I spent $18,000+ from Tormach with all I bought, I easily could have spent several thousand more on additional tooling and probably eventually will. If I get too much busier I'll have to spend another chunk of change on a Haas Minimill I guess.

You may be right about the Haas Mini Mill. It sounds like you are at the stage where you need production capabilities. Haas could supply you a machine with a proven tool changer system. As I said before, the Tormach unit would be a work in progress, forcing you to constantly monitor your machine.

[titchener]

If your parts are small enough, make fixtures to mount as many as you can on the table, then run all the first tool ops on all of them, etc. If you can fit a lot of parts on it really cuts down on the tool changes.

Paul T.

[PoppaBear10]

R.DesJardin,

Have to disagree with Sharpshooter, the ATC I designed did work for 3/8" DOC, but people here wanted 1" DOC like the videos, to do that I had to redesign the head. This added another 1000 to the price tag. To produce, Warrenty, service, market etc. the device was getting into a price range that was unsutainable for the Tormach. I sold the ATC and IP to a Tiwanese company, for them to bring to market on a different type of machine, with some mechanical/electrical and programming mods of course.

scott

[R.DesJardin]

Originally Posted by titchener If your parts are small enough, make fixtures to mount as many as you can on the table, then run all the first tool ops on all of them, etc. If you can fit a lot of parts on it really cuts down on the tool changes. Paul T.

Well yes I have that in the plan next already. But some of my parts are to big to do that, hence the need for a tool changer.

scott,
Designing something for the public is a tough call as everyone wants something a little different. I build what works for me to use with input from no more than 1 or 2 other people, then I'll sell it if anyone wants it. Little guys like me won't retire from making small things in the garage/shop at home. But I'm having a great time.

[pete from TN]

Poppabears machine was real nice and looked to work well. I have NEVER run a 1" depth of cut on a machine this size and to expect it for manufacture is a joke. I have a Lathemaster mill converting to cnc and even manual with hamfists back when I got it and did not really know it's limits I never tried that. The Tormach machine is a fine little mill and most will use a 1/2 or 3/8 inch or smaller endmill the majority of the time and take reasonable depths of cut and abide within the realistic machining abilities of the machine. To ask that it can do more than that is not realistic. Hell I doubt I would even do that on my Knee mill and it weighs nearly three times as much as the tormach. I intend to build my own toolchanger similar to Hoss and Poppabears and use the tormach system and a power drawbar similar to hoss's on my Lathemaster mill. I am no engineer but just from what I have seen using these holders on my knee mill screwing around I feel confident they will perform to my expectations just fine....

To be honest I was bummed out when Poppabear bowed out of this idea and could not blame him for the responses he received about it. I do not even own a tormach and I was excited about his product. Wish I could afford one but maybe someday....peace

[Freddy Bastard]

Scott, your design looked very good. It would have probably do the job for most of us. I don't use big d.o.c, I use very small tools and never push this machine too hard. Hope someone will bring it to life.

[ihavenofish]

that atc thread made my head hurt
i think some people make it their quest to kill anything they dont happen to need or want.

anyhow. im getting a new bf20 type manual milling machine within the month, and it will be converted slowy to cnc, and one main focus is a tool changer idea. the machine is of course not a tormach - alot smaller - but the assembly could apply to it i think, with minor modifications.

the first thing was the spindle. i decided bt30. reason was that the tooling is fairly universal, and with places like maritool, its no more expensive than the TTS and alot more broad in application. the TTS is a fine system bu BT30 just makes everything a ton cheaper and easier. the spindle shaft will have a spring stack, stud gripper mechanism, and a pneumatic release mechanisim. in terms of the tormach, it may be easy enough to replace the spindle shaft in their r8 or bt30 cartridge. the release device bolts on top of the head and is engaged by a valve triggered by the tool changer mechanically. right now to release the design puts presure on the spindle bearings. i can probably resolve this but it might complicate it too much (read: expensive). its certainly no worse than whacking the drawbar with a hammer. im aiming for cheap and easy.

second aspect is the atc. im aiming for a system very much like the one used in fanuc robo drills and brother tapping centres. its intended to be all mechanical and mounts to the column kinda 45 degree sidearm. on my particular machine, it will use the top 2.5" of travel to set the whole thing in motion. a small servo or stepper can spin the tool carousel to change tools. my personal change will probably have only 6 tool positions, but its fairly easy to make more on a bigger machine. so really, all the controller has to do is move to the top of the Z, spin the carousel, and move back down. only drawback is you lose the top 2.5" of travel to the changer. on my machine i can run the saddle off the column, so i wont "lose" anything. tormach has ample z travel, so its probably fine for most people. it possibly to make the changer only engage when desired, but that gets gets back into complications.

what will it cost? no idea yet. probably alot. atc's will ALWAYS cost alot. if you dont want to pay, you dont need an atc. that said, at least for a 6 position model on the bf20, i think it could come in at just a few grand. if it was sent to china to be made, probably a fair bit less. the tormach would probably run more simply because it would be bigger.

and to preempt the events of the last thread... the answer to your queston is NO!!!!!



well, maybe.

[levelzero]

Right now I couldn't afford the tool changer but I thought it was a fantastic idea and it is pretty high on my list of needs for the machine. I don't normally run a deep DOC and instead stick to wide and fast passes.

I guess it's back to designing my own

[sharpshooter90]

Originally Posted by PoppaBear10 R.DesJardin, To produce, Warrenty, service, market etc. the device was getting into a price range that was unsutainable for the Tormach. I sold the ATC and IP to a Tiwanese company, for them to bring to market on a different type of machine, with some mechanical/electrical and programming mods of course. scott

A while back when this first came to my attention I posted some comments- Briefly I said the idea was too machine specific, and should be modified to be adaptable to a broad range of machines. I said it was too expensive for the average home/small shop guy with only 1 machine. Others jumped on me and called me a naysayer etc. However the fact that the project went nowhere and has been turned over to someone else for an entirely different machine has proven my comments to have been correct. Inventors are a different breed, and most do not take kindly to any sort of outside input, no matter if its constructive or not. That's one of the reasons that of all the millions of patents issued over the years, only a tiny fraction have ever made it to the marketplace.