Overwhelmed with CAD/CAM. Suggestions for a beginner?

[ger21]

What's the price of IronCAD?

[Smalltimer]

What's the price of IronCAD?

I'm not sure actually, though I recall seeing pricing range between 1500 and 3500 based on packages.

[adamvs]

Smalltimer, you say time is money, at 1500-3500, that's a fair chunk of money. But getting back to the :58 metric. I find this kind of thing somewhat meaningless, somewhat like the 0-60 metric for car acceleration. For cars, a more meaningful metric, might be, how fast you could pass someone, should you want to. So probably the 50-80 metric is more realistic, rather than how fast you can blast off a stop light.

My point is: CAD, especially for parts like this are the smaller part of the game. I typically spend much more time in CAM, and the often unavoidable fixture design. Here is where Fusion has a real advantage in that it's integrated with CAM. If your in the development game, say you want to change a dimension, add a chamfer, some other feature, etc. Having to redo you CAM from scratch on a new model can be really painful.

How long would it take me to CAD up this part in Fusion?.. I dunno, probably around 2-3 minutes. But then, I'm 1) not going to practice it 20 times, 2) memorize all the dimensions
It's 3 sketches, 3 extrudes - 2 of which are cuts .. boom done! I apologize for the last post, I got into it without at least getting on the IronCAD web site. To be fair, it looks like an awesome product, where they have optimized some of the basics of the process. But even at $1500, that's a lot of useful toys you could buy for your SlantPRO.

[Smalltimer]

Smalltimer, you say time is money, at 1500-3500, that's a fair chunk of money.

I agree. And I think this works best when comparing production costs such as the annual cost of ownership for a CAD/CAM solution for example. ie, Fusion 360 (assuming it is sufficient) in contrast to IronCAD with a CAM module, spread out over the run of 3 years type thing.

But getting back to the :58 metric. I find this kind of thing somewhat meaningless, somewhat like the 0-60 metric for car acceleration. For cars, a more meaningful metric, might be, how fast you could pass someone, should you want to. So probably the 50-80 metric is more realistic, rather than how fast you can blast off a stop light.

Understandable. Maybe someone will make a Fusion 360 vs IronCAD involving a larger assembly in the future.

Here is where Fusion has a real advantage in that it's integrated with CAM. If your in the development game, say you want to change a dimension, add a chamfer, some other feature, etc. Having to redo you CAM from scratch on a new model can be really painful.

I think its unfortunate that IronCAD doesn't have an integrated CAM module as the solid modeling environment really seems attuned to such applications. Though unfortunately it looks like this would require partner integration and more importantly, more costs. The upside however, may be that these integrations are dynamic such as part updates and/or revisions will propagate (to and fro) with the CAM module.

That said, this is where I think Fusion 360 will really shine (no so much now, as it may still be quite young in terms of product maturity on the CAM front) though I'm confident that Autodesk will continue to push hard on development so as to meet the required production standards.

...probably around 2-3 minutes

Sounds ambitious, though as a seasoned Fusion 360 user, I'm thinking 2 to 3 mins. would be quite an impressive feat from a fresh perspective also(not memorized, dimension checks, adjustments etc).

Agreed on the money saved btw.
I believe Autodesk has the right idea with respect to catering to the little guy by making their software free to that market segment. Which is a model that very few software companies will likely have the ability to follow. (deep pockets). And is unfortunate, because I really think this is the best approach to take in such cases. Eliminate the need for anti-piracy measures, propagate product knowledge and education, while increasing potential license holders as a result - genius!

[stevenj]

I agree. And I think this works best when comparing production costs such as the annual cost of ownership for a CAD/CAM solution for example. ie, Fusion 360 (assuming it is sufficient) in contrast to IronCAD with a CAM module, spread out over the run of 3 years type thing.


Understandable. Maybe someone will make a Fusion 360 vs IronCAD involving a larger assembly in the future.


I think its unfortunate that IronCAD doesn't have an integrated CAM module as the solid modeling environment really seems attuned to such applications. Though unfortunately it looks like this would require partner integration and more importantly, more costs. The upside however, may be that these integrations are dynamic such as part updates and/or revisions will propagate (to and fro) with the CAM module.

That said, this is where I think Fusion 360 will really shine (no so much now, as it may still be quite young in terms of product maturity on the CAM front) though I'm confident that Autodesk will continue to push hard on development so as to meet the required production standards.


Sounds ambitious, though as a seasoned Fusion 360 user, I'm thinking 2 to 3 mins. would be quite an impressive feat from a fresh perspective also(not memorized, dimension checks, adjustments etc).

Agreed on the money saved btw.
I believe Autodesk has the right idea with respect to catering to the little guy by making their software free to that market segment. Which is a model that very few software companies will likely have the ability to follow. (deep pockets). And is unfortunate, because I really think this is the best approach to take in such cases. Eliminate the need for anti-piracy measures, propagate product knowledge and education, while increasing potential license holders as a result - genius!

I have been using fusion360 for almost a year now as a hobbyist. It can do everything I throw at it if I can keep up with the steep learning curve but there are lots of videos about. As a hobbyist its great that it is free, but with an annual "free" licence Autodesk can change that with a flick of the wrist which having had that done to be with online apps and games in the past and hence being shafted concerns me. Looking at some of the fees 30US a month seems the starting point which is excessive for my personal home use. I'd just walk away from a fee like that.

[109jb]

With regard to the licensing of Fusion 360 for free, here is what it says on the website

Access the same design software used by industry leaders worldwide. A free 3-year license is available for students, teachers, and academic institutions.

A free 1-year startup license is also available for hobbyists, enthusiasts, makers, and emerging businesses that make less than US$100,000 in revenue per year. At the end of 1 year, you can reselect the startup entitlement or transition to a commercial entitlement.

The free offer is not just for hobbyists. You can use it in a business as long as your revenue is less than 100k.It is also not a one year and then you have to pay sort of thing. As long as you are under the 100k threshold or a hobbyist, you can continue to sign up for free.

There are skeptics that believe this is a ploy to get people hooked on it and then yank the rug out by doing away with the free use. That may be so, but until then it is still free, so who cares. I for one think they will continue the free offer for some time because it is a good marketing strategy to force shops to move to Fusion.

[tmarks11]

Looking at some of the fees 30US a month seems the starting point which is excessive for my personal home use. I'd just walk away from a fee like that.

Even if they start charging, $360 per year is a steal of a price for a CAD/CAM software (especially considering how good the CAM is).

For reference, the HSM Works Solid Works plugin (which is what Fusion 360 CAM is) is $2900/year.

There are some free CAD/CAM software out there, but they are mostly very gimped and clunky. At some point, you get what you pay for. At least for know, Fusion 360 is a heck of a deal.

[MichaelHenry]

There are skeptics that believe this is a ploy to get people hooked on it and then yank the rug out by doing away with the free use. That may be so, but until then it is still free, so who cares. I for one think they will continue the free offer for some time because it is a good marketing strategy to force shops to move to Fusion.

Sooner or later they will almost certainly change that policy and/or start breaking out features like FEA and CAM as extra cost add-ons. Onshape just announced that their "free" plan will no longer include private documents and bumped the monthly price to $125/month for new licenses after 12/15/16 and this was the second limitation to the free plan that they've introduced in the past 8-12 months. Autodesk almost certainly has deeper pockets and a larger user base than Onshape but even they can't keep giving product away for free forever. If they do make that change and if you decide it is too expensive to maintain, what happens to that user project data in the cloud? Will users still be able to access it for revisions at no charge?

In Onshape, I will lose access to the two private projects I currently have in their free plan (for purposes of revision or conversion) so will have to convert it to some other CAD format in the next 3 weeks That's not too bad for me as the projects aren't too large, but I do have 2 GB of legacy CAD files from my previous CAD program. Fortunately that runs from and stores data on my hard disk so I should be able to continue using the program and accessing my old files for a while yet, even though I dropped maintenance this year.

So far as Fusion goes, I think its a matter of when they will start charging everyone, not if. Best to be prepared to pay or have a Plan B in mind before that happens.

[tmarks11]

So far as Fusion goes, I think its a matter of when they will start charging everyone, not if. Best to be prepared to pay or have a Plan B in mind before that happens.

Autodesk already has very expensive 3D CAD solutions aimed at professionals (AutoCAD Inventor), with expensive full-featured CAM software that works as a plug-in (HSM Works).

I see Fusion 360 as their product aimed at the low end of the market. Makers. Hobbyists. Start-ups. I can't see them jacking the price up to compete with their professional software line. What would be the point of that? I could see them go back to the $30/month model once they get a big fan base.

[MichaelHenry]

I see Fusion 360 as their product aimed at the low end of the market. Makers. Hobbyists. Start-ups. I can't see them jacking the price up to compete with their professional software line. What would be the point of that? I could see them go back to the $30/month model once they get a big fan base.

It is just a guess on my part and I hope that your opinion proves correct. I personally wouldn't bet much money on it. My last "bet" with Onshape didn't turn out too well.

[ger21]

Sooner or later they will almost certainly change that policy and/or start breaking out features like FEA and CAM as extra cost add-ons.

That's already true for the people paying for it. Some of the higher level features are only available in the Ultimate version.

I could see them go back to the $30/month model once they get a big fan base.

The $30/month never went away. But when it's free for hobbyists, why would they buy a subscription?

They have been periodically offering super low priced 1 year subscriptions in an effort (I think) to make some money from the free users.
They have a Black Friday special this week.
1 year for $100.
2 years for $120.

I think in the next 2-3 years, the free for everyone plans will go away. They've been investing huge amounts of money in this, and probably 80% or more of their users aren't paying anything.

[tmarks11]

It is just a guess on my part and I hope that your opinion proves correct. I personally wouldn't bet much money on it. My last "bet" with Onshape didn't turn out too well.

Autodesk is a much bigger company with an established product line. They can afford to subsidize a low-end product. Plus, the HSM Works updates in Fusion 360 also get pushed out to their SW and Inventor plug-ins, which they are getting serious money from.

They have really pushed Fusion 360 hard with the maker crowd, and with Tormach., etc, which makes me think this is the market share they are aiming at. And this market share won't be paying them $2500/year for their product.

[109jb]

I personally believe the free licensing of Fusion will continue because it will result in revenue for Autodesk that they would not otherwise see anyway. The hobbyists aren't going to pay thousands of dollars for a CAD/CAM package, so there isn't any money to be made there. Pretty much the same is true for the small shops. So one might ask why give it to them? Well if a hobbyist or a small shop becomes a bigger shop, and has scruples they will likely stay loyal and buy Fusion. Any entity that doesn't have scruples would likely just use cracked software, so they wouldn't get revenue from them anyway. Nothing lost.

Yep, this is just speculation and there's no way anyone really knows what is going to happen with the licensing of the free versions of Fusion. But until it changes I get very good free CAD and CAM and I am happy. If it does change then I'll figure it out then.

[LeeWay]

I jumped in early for Ultimate for $300 a year. I just paid a third time and I know the software has saved me much more than that just in the machining time saved. Not to mention easier illustrations and things for my website. I think it is an incredible value even at $300 a year. I am paying more just to keep my Turbocad up to date only updating every other time.

[victorofga]

109 jb

I like to think that is the real point, beginners and hobbyist wont pay thoushands, and don't even use so excessively
with ths ""free"" stuff they can prevent people going for copies of the program
in the meaning whos going to buy any illegit copy if theres the free...


the subscription also a kind of protection against illegal copies..

then, the free users one day becoming business, they want to keep continuing what they learnt and used..

so theres a chance for a level it remain free

example meshmixer what is free, and works very well without any cloud option
simply outplaced other stl programs..
netfabb and materialize still asking thoushads for what meshmixer makes free..

[Spinnetti]

I personally believe the free licensing of Fusion will continue because it will result in revenue for Autodesk that they would not otherwise see anyway. The hobbyists aren't going to pay thousands of dollars for a CAD/CAM package, so there isn't any money to be made there. Pretty much the same is true for the small shops. So one might ask why give it to them? Well if a hobbyist or a small shop becomes a bigger shop, and has scruples they will likely stay loyal and buy Fusion. Any entity that doesn't have scruples would likely just use cracked software, so they wouldn't get revenue from them anyway. Nothing lost.

Yep, this is just speculation and there's no way anyone really knows what is going to happen with the licensing of the free versions of Fusion. But until it changes I get very good free CAD and CAM and I am happy. If it does change then I'll figure it out then.

Its not about "scruples". Nothing wrong with picking what you want, but its a huge investment of time to learn software.. if you are good on fusion, why would you want to start from scratch? Same reason I'm loathe to leave Solidworks for a "free" product - gotta start over again. Good investment from Autodesk perspective I think - same reason educational versions are so cheap. Hook em early.

[upnorth]

Its not about "scruples". Nothing wrong with picking what you want, but its a huge investment of time to learn software.. if you are good on fusion, why would you want to start from scratch? Same reason I'm loathe to leave Solidworks for a "free" product - gotta start over again. Good investment from Autodesk perspective I think - same reason educational versions are so cheap. Hook em early.

Like you I really did not want to switch from Solidworks. I did the switch a little at a time. I was using both programs at the same time. One day I made the switch completely. Now I only use Fusion 360 and no longer miss solidworks. If my shop is ever successful there is no doubt I'll be a Fusion 360 customer. As you mentioned once you are good at fusion 360 there is no reason to switch.

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