What happened to: Review if the Tormach PCNC 1100


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Thread: What happened to: Review if the Tormach PCNC 1100

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    Default What happened to: Review if the Tormach PCNC 1100

    I've been evaluating various CNC mills over the last few months and the Tormach is currently top of my list. While I don't believe everything that I read the inputs in this forum have significantly influenced my decision - up to now.

    A few days ago a thread entitled "Review if the Tormach PCNC 1100" was started by someone reporting to be a dissatisfied customer (I'm trying to be impartial here). This thread received an unusually high number of replies in a short time and, from memory, I would say that most were positive for Tormach.

    One reply pointed out that there always two sides to a disagreement and I was hoping for some kind of response from Tormach. They sponsor the forum so I assume that they are interested in the posts.

    This thread then disappeared! I later found it in the Vendor Discussion forum.
    It could be argued that this is the correct forum but the thread would receive significantly less exposure to potential Tormach customers there. I also asked myself whether entirely positive threads are also moved in the same manner?

    The thread was subsequently deleted from the Vendor Discussion forum!

    Another reply pointed out that there are seldom any negative posts in the Tormach forum. Do they all go the same way as this thread?

    As I said at the start I am (still) a potential Tormach customer and would be very interested in a published response from the forum moderators and Tormach to the content and removal of the original thread - if possible before THIS thread is moved or deleted!

    Many thanks, Step

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    I think there is a bit of a collective, stunned silence at the moment.

    I'm personally am not happy, but I haven't worked out exactly why yet. It certainly degrades the value of the forum, especially for potential Tormach buyers and also for those that are prepared to defend it in free and open discussions. I think I may have just given up.

    Phil

    PS: It's not so much that the thread has disappeared it's more to do with a lack of any explanation.


    Quote Originally Posted by TurboStep View Post
    I've been evaluating various CNC mills over the last few months and the Tormach is currently top of my list. While I don't believe everything that I read the inputs in this forum have significantly influenced my decision - up to now.

    A few days ago a thread entitled "Review if the Tormach PCNC 1100" was started by someone reporting to be a dissatisfied customer (I'm trying to be impartial here). This thread received an unusually high number of replies in a short time and, from memory, I would say that most were positive for Tormach.

    One reply pointed out that there always two sides to a disagreement and I was hoping for some kind of response from Tormach. They sponsor the forum so I assume that they are interested in the posts.

    This thread then disappeared! I later found it in the Vendor Discussion forum.
    It could be argued that this is the correct forum but the thread would receive significantly less exposure to potential Tormach customers there. I also asked myself whether entirely positive threads are also moved in the same manner?

    The thread was subsequently deleted from the Vendor Discussion forum!

    Another reply pointed out that there are seldom any negative posts in the Tormach forum. Do they all go the same way as this thread?

    As I said at the start I am (still) a potential Tormach customer and would be very interested in a published response from the forum moderators and Tormach to the content and removal of the original thread - if possible before THIS thread is moved or deleted!

    Many thanks, Step




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    Please remember that this site is run free for all to use, and the moderators have to do their jobs as best they can while trying to do their real jobs too.

    I can't tell you what is said behind the scenes here, for I am not privy to the discussions or the basic instructions given to the moderators. I can only infer from my own experience on another site that I moderated and administrated for about five years. We are a pretty hands-off crowd, but when a thread would begin with a rant about service from a particular vendor, it usually got shuffled off to a more appropriate area such as our "JoMomma" or our Vendor's Forum. That was just standard policy.

    I can see the logic in the move in this case too. Is the site owner concerned with keeping the Machine forums as a place for technical help and information on the machines, or should it be a wastebasket for every post that mentions that particular machine? I neither agree or disagree with a particular policy here, it simply is what it is. What's more important is that it remains consistent.

    It seems that an area of this site is dedicated to issues between vendors and customers to allow these discussions to take place without disturbing the board users that would rather spend their valuable time finding out about the machine, not what one or two particular users think of the customer service of the company that produces it. I think it was the moderator's decision to move that thread for just that reason.

    My personal preference agrees with that of the person who set this policy, be that the site owner, the admins, or a particular moderator. If I am interested in seeing everything said online about the Tormach mill, I can simply do a search at the root level of the forums to see.



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    Yes but this particular thread seems to have gone, completely.

    Phil

    Quote Originally Posted by johntm View Post
    If I am interested in seeing everything said online about the Tormach mill, I can simply do a search at the root level of the forums to see.




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    You're right, Phil. I can't find it either.

    It could mean that it is "under review". The sticky in that forum states that the posts are " examined to determine whether they make false or defamatory statements". I'm assuming that is what they are checking, but I don't know.

    My usual response when I see something on the web that is troubling or confusing is "It's only the Internet". That mantra kept me sane during my four years moderating a specific forum where vitrol and mod-baiting were de rigeur.



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    [QUOTE=johntm;541103]Please remember that this site is run free for all to use, and the moderators have to do their jobs as best they can while trying to do their real jobs too.

    The forum may be free to use, but its a business for the owners. Those banner ads cost a lot of money each month, and being that its now 2008 and every dollar is precious, you can expect the forum owners to bend over backwards to placate the advertisers.



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    [quote=fastlanecafe;541122]
    Quote Originally Posted by johntm View Post
    Please remember that this site is run free for all to use, and the moderators have to do their jobs as best they can while trying to do their real jobs too.

    The forum may be free to use, but its a business for the owners. Those banner ads cost a lot of money each month, and being that its now 2008 and every dollar is precious, you can expect the forum owners to bend over backwards to placate the advertisers.

    We can only hope that they are true to their stated editorial policy at the top of the Vendors forum. But it is our choice to be here or not, and theirs to run the site in the manner they feel appropriate.



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    lawyers were involved. in a private message from the original poster i was told that their lawyer was suggesting the thread be removed. it very well may have been the original poster that removed the thread. i sincerely hope it was not tormach that got the thread be removed. as long as the original poster with the complaint was being honest, i think it is bs for a vendor to censor views. this is even more important with a relatively new machine that people are most likely ordering sight unseen.

    here is my honest review of the machine.
    my machine arived dead on arival. the spindle motor wouldn't work. i called tormach to do some trouble shooting. after a few ideas, it was determined the vfd was bad. a new vfd was sent and i swapped it out. the spindle motor still didn't work. i spent some more time trouble shooting over the phone with tormach and it all came back to the vfd. another vfd was sent out and i swapped the replacement for the newer replacement. this time it worked and has been working since.

    in my opinion, while i was not happy that the machine was doa, tormach did what they needed to make it right. the tech support from tormach was great. the machine seems built well and i am satisfied with the accuracy. all of my problems with the machine after the initial problem have been user caused. i am not a machinist by trade, just a garage hack so causing problems is to be expected.

    bottom line is if i needed another machine in that size and budget, i'd buy another tormach. i just don't see anything better in that price range or even close for that matter.


    and again, i really hope it was not tormach that had the original thread removed. that is totally unfair to the consumers if so.



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    Sounds like litigation is moving forward- the first thing a lawyer tells his client is to keep quiet and let the lawyer do all the talking.



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    Uhh? There's no delete for posts. How could the original poster have removed it?

    CR.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Crevice Reamer View Post
    Uhh? There's no delete for posts. How could the original poster have removed it?

    CR.
    the original poster or tormach could have contacted the mods here and said "pretty please remove the thread, lawyers are involved".



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    After reading how Tormach used cloned Gecko drives at the beginning, and paid no damages, I refused to ever consider them.



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    Please note that this answer is a general answer to some of the questions in this thread, it's not supposed to be thread specific as I have neither a relation to nor knowledge about the company discussed.

    There's a uge difference between move and remove. The moderation of this site is done with a no-deletion-policy. Of course there are threads that have been removed, but it happens seldom and the moderators do it as little as possible (and pretty often with an internal discussion before). When it comes to moving threads, there are many threads moved every day. The main reason is that they simply are placed in wrong forum.

    In the past the support forums were sometimes controlled by company representants. They all lost their moderation control when the administration team realized they deleted thread that were uncomfortable for them (and hey, don't forget here are forums for some brands that don't like that we have a forum for their machines!). I must say to clarify, not all of them did that, but to stay with a policy that is safe enough all of them lost the moderation privilege.

    Why the specific thread you now discuss was removed I actullay don't know for sure (no reason given). It could be some legal stuff, or just ranting/bashing. I can ensure you though, that there is a reason. As I wrote in the beginning we try to remove as few posts as possible, with free speech in mind, and we would like to have an open society. There is a lot stuff happening under the hood and we've been taking pretty big fights with heaviest dragons in the business to keep the forum open, so I hope you understand that sometimes we have to remove stuff.

    BTW, in any case, you're free to post - and I'm free to remove. It's in the member agreement.

    Regards and keep-on-posting-wishes,
    Sven
    Moderator



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    Thumbs up This forum is a business its not supposed to be fair.

    Gentlemen,

    This forum is a business its not supposed to be fair.

    The advertiser pays for the forum and rules their designated product section.

    They moderate the section in order sell products not to let you bad rap them.

    Once you make enough trouble or noise the post, thread or complete section gets deleted.

    Its capitalism at its finest.

    Now its time for some coffee and my famous doughnuts.

    JoeyB



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    Quote Originally Posted by svenakela View Post
    Please note that this answer is a general answer to some of the questions in this thread, it's not supposed to be thread specific as I have neither a relation to nor knowledge about the company discussed.

    Moderator
    Read as " I have committed no culpable act"

    Ah- takes me back to the good ol' days- Haldemann, Erlichman, Mitchell, Liddy, Agnew and the shaky jowled denier himself- RMN. Maybe it was Rosemary Woods who deleted the post.



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    I run a business with a public forum. About 99.999% of the post are not moderated and left for free discussion either in support of my products or not in support. I've only had to nuke a post a couple of times but sometimes it is necessary.

    There are times when it is 100% appropriate to remove a post like this. Anyone who deals with the public finds situations where something happens askew and the customer isn't happy. You try your best to deal with the situations but even if you have the best of intentions, there are times when things don't work out.

    There are also customers who you DON'T want to deal with. Anyone who has been in business dealing with the general public can relate to this. I've had several customers who just couldn't be satisfied. They either have unrealistic expectations of you or they create their own problems. I sometimes wish I had some way of detecting them up front so I could save us both a bunch of headache. :-)

    I've had one situation recently where a customer who incorrectly used my product, threw a fit and decided to use the forum as a method of attacking me. I'm not in business to tick people off and I don't pay my bills by having unhappy customers. This guy was bent out of shape though and was totally unwilling to work through his problems (which later where verified to have nothing to do with my product). He promptly made a post on my forum telling the entire situation from his selective viewpoint. I had to respond and tell my side of the story. That is all fine and dandy but I ended up spending two days out of my schedule fighting this public battle in order to maintain my integrity as a business. In order to show my side of the story I was drug into this public battle. The things I had to say to defend myself of course showed this guy in a negative light which I didn't want to do. I have no desire to engage in putting someone down in public.

    Looking back on it I would have been much smarter to nuke his post and move on with life. There was nothing positive brought to either me, this customer nor anyone looking to buy something from me and it occupied a significant amount of my time over that two day period. So... for those who want to hear from every soap opera situation. I'd just say there are other venues for that. The vendors forum though should be someplace they don't have to engage in those kinds of activities. There are other public areas where you can vent if you have a beef with a company. The customer can use the BBB or if they paid with a Credit Card they can dispute the charges and then you have an unbiased 3rd party to arbitrate the process.



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    Please note that this answer is a general answer to some of the questions in this thread, it's not supposed to be thread specific as I have neither a relation to nor knowledge about the company discussed.
    Could we please get a specific reason as to why the thread was moved and/or deleted? That seems only fair to the members here and might quash the conspiracy theories at least a little bit.

    Mike



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    Guys, it's been posted that the thread was moved to the Vendor Discussion area:

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=372

    and I saw it there after the move. If there is a lawsuit (or pending lawsuit) involved, I can imagine that it was taken offline so it could be handled properly, and not "tried in the press"...

    Best regards,

    Randy



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    Quote Originally Posted by zephyr9900 View Post
    Guys, it's been posted that the thread was moved to the Vendor Discussion area:

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=372

    and I saw it there after the move.
    Yes we already know that. It's not there now!

    If there is a lawsuit (or pending lawsuit) involved, I can imagine that it was taken offline so it could be handled properly, and not "tried in the press"...
    I can imagine a number of reasons why the thread was pulled. It doesn't sound unreasonable to expect the contents of the thread to be substituted with a short explanation why it had been pulled. It shows a lack of respect for the members, who after all said and done, are the people who put the meat in this particular sandwich. Without the members there would be no sponsors and without sponsors the Board owners would need to get a day job.

    Phil



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    Phil, that would be polite. But with respect you don't live in the USA, where litigation is fast and easy (people successfully suing McDonald's when they spill coffee in their own lap in their car...) and any public discussion can be used as "evidence" in a suit. I'm a moderator on a public CNC software board, and have deleted posts when they verged into talk about pirated software, not wanting the board itself to incur possible liability.

    Best regards,

    Randy



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What happened to: Review if the Tormach PCNC 1100

What happened to: Review if the Tormach PCNC 1100