Anatomy of a 10+ year old PCNC 1100

[mcleodjm]

This thread is going to be part information for buyers of used Tormach machines, part rant and part detailing repairs.

I (unfortunately) purchased a used 1100 last summer. It had been sitting for some time. It turns out it had a few issues and for what I paid +parts (not including time) I should have just bought a new one. Some lessons are learned the hard way.I don't want to get negative. /rant

I have fixed everything with the machine with the exception of one thing, the lubrication system. It has been a real pain in the you know what. Last summer I flushed the system.. or thought I did, more later. I also replaced plugged metering valves that I was unable to clean. The machine had been sitting for 4 years IIRC. The way oil had gone bad, it was more sludge than anything.

I am not sure what caused this, but the spring in the manual oiler was basically corroded away and broke after a couple weeks use. I should have taken a picture of that. Perhaps the vent hole on the top allows coolant in? The machine was not set up for coolant when I got it, but if I remember correctly the PO said he used it with coolant for a while when it was younger. Anyway, I replaced the manual oiler with the electric one.

Below is a picture of the machine as purchased. As it turned out, the oil stains should have told me to walk away.



From the start the Z ways have not been getting oil. After the electric oiler upgrade and the cleaning last summer the rest of the ways seemed to be getting oil, so I have been using the machine and manually wiping the ways with oil every day. What a pain! I got so tired of it I decided it was time to figure out what was going on a couple weeks ago and took the machine apart. Even after the work I have already done, the oil system does not hold pressure. I know oil is going somewhere as the tray fills up with oil.

I tried to rotate this picture, it is just a shot of breaking the machine down:



More tear down, you can see crap in the line at the top of the shot:



Close up of the line that feeds the Y ball screw:



I think we found some of the spring from the manual oiler! I crushed one of the pieces from the line and it is rust power.



Another line plugged with rust:



Stripped casting. I will be repainting the saddle. I don't know if the paint Tormach used is just junk or age or oils, but the paint on mine can be scraped off with a finger nail in places.



One of the places I am losing oil. The turcite on the X ways is in decent shape, other than a few stuck chips to pull out and this area. It may be hard to see, but there is a dent from what looks like an impact. It goes all the way from the oil groove to the edge of the turcite. I can only assume this is from the factory, but the PO _might_ have taken the machine apart.



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[mcleodjm]

Part 2:

This shot is the back right corner, closest to the electrical cabinet. This is the only place I found foreign material embedded in the turcite. By the time CNC zone shrinks these pics down I doubt you will be able to see, but dark spots are craters where I picked out embedded aluminum and steel that got in between the table and turcite. There are only 8 spots or so.



Another casting shot for those playing along at home:



These machines are really well designed, but unfortunately built to fail. Or at least these early ones were due to poor QC. I seem to remember reading about oil passages that were not drilled. In this shot you should be able to see the craters in the Y turcite from CAST IRON that obviously come through the oil passage. This one passage missed being cleaned.



Another shot:



And another:



After some testing I have come to the conclusion that the reason my machine does not hold oil pressure is it is losing the oil quickly through large gaps:

The impact mark on the X
The iron pieces embedded in the Y are propping it up a bit. (also explains why I had trouble getting the Y adjusted well)
The ball screws.

These screws are not sealed and a good portion of oil is lost out of them.

I am currently rebuilding the screws and will post more later. But here is a shot of galled balls out of the Y screw. The X is in a lot better shape. Brand new balls are on the left for comparison.

[Don Clement]

I always hand oil the Z-axis ways and Z-axis ball screw on my 10 year old Tormach with Vactra no.2. Never quite trusted the manual oiler to distribute way oil high up on the Z-axis.

Don

[Uman]

I always hand oil the Z-axis ways and Z-axis ball screw on my 10 year old Tormach with Vactra no.2. Never quite trusted the manual oiler to distribute way oil high up on the Z-axis.

Don

My Z-axis was starved of from a pinched feed line. It was corrected, but it still does not have much flow.
I suspect the Z-axis oil under gravity returns back to the pump over long periods and evacuates the line near the discharge point.
Manual Z-axis oiling is easy and a must. I keep a syringe in a covered cup of oil near by.

[Don Clement]

My Z-axis was starved of from a pinched feed line. It was corrected, but it still does not have much flow.
I suspect the Z-axis oil under gravity returns back to the pump over long periods and evacuates the line near the discharge point.
Manual Z-axis oiling is easy and a must. I keep a syringe in a covered cup of oil near by.

I use a goldenrod. Although now looking for a vintage Eagle 66 oiler.

[popspipes]

I put an inline check valve in mine as it would siphon back and it would take three or 4 pumps to get oil to the Z. It has been a few years, so I dont remember the details but It is an inline with push on fittings from Ebay.

[MichaelHenry]

I use a goldenrod. Although now looking for a vintage Eagle 66 oiler.

Just curious - what is so special about the Eagle 66?

[Don Clement]

Just curious - what is so special about the Eagle 66?

Because the pump is mounted on the body not on the lid as with Goldenrod oilers. Also the Eagle 66 can be rebuilt
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Eagle-No-66...-/192446338171

[MichaelHenry]

Thanks, that makes sense. Looks like they sell at pretty reasonable prices, too, judging from closed Ebay auctions.

[mcleodjm]

Re - "I am currently rebuilding the screws and will post more later. But here is a shot of galled balls out of the Y screw. The X is in a lot better shape. Brand new balls are on the left for comparison. "

This is very interesting - I look forward to more details on this. The Y screw on the Tormach's is only lightly covered behind the table by the bellows - once they have a small split or hole the coolant and chips can run over it. ... what sort of condition where the bellows in?

Good work rebuilding the ballscrews - you are replacing the balls, but what about the ground thread itself, what condition is it in? keep us posted please.

Cheers Cliff

Hi Cliff, I have watched most of your videos over the years.

I will upload some pictures later this week, but so far the Z screw is in great shape. The X is in good shape, it has galled balls and they will be replaced. The Y is in quite bad shape, the balls are worn and there is some damage to the screw. It is near the end of the travel, probably at or past the limit switch, so I am not going to worry about it. Even the bearings on the Y were in bad shape. I am not sure what explains that, they are fairly isolated from debris. But they were packed full of junk.

The Y bellows on my machine are in good shape, but could have been replaced at some point.

I suspect a part of the Y screw being in such bad shape is the hole that can be seen in the following shot:



The hole is in the mounting bracket for the X screw and allows oil (and whatever it picks up) to drain right on to the Y screw.

That hole is in a raised section of the casting, for the X screw to mount to, so it can't drain the saddle until it is flooded. On my machine, there was quite a bit of oil draining down there because I was losing a lot of my oil out the X (all) ball nut.

Other than the impact mark on the X ways, both X and Y do not show a lot of wear.

The Z ways (turcite) are in bad shape from my inspection tonight. I took the Z off the machine. I will post pictures in a couple days.The right side appears to have run dry for a long time...

I put an inline check valve in mine as it would siphon back and it would take three or 4 pumps to get oil to the Z. It has been a few years, so I dont remember the details but It is an inline with push on fittings from Ebay.

That was my thought too. I am glad to hear that a check valve works.

I have already purchased check valves and needle valves so I could try and get even oil flow to all three axis.

I will also be converting the screws to grease and have a pneumatic greaser.

I also have covers for the screws to keep debris out. Grease holds swarf/dust/etc in the nut better and can be worse than oil if not careful.



Thanks for the reply's.

[CadRhino]

How do you fix the ‘turcite’

Hi Cliff, I have watched most of your videos over the years.

I will upload some pictures later this week, but so far the Z screw is in great shape. The X is in good shape, it has galled balls and they will be replaced. The Y is in quite bad shape, the balls are worn and there is some damage to the screw. It is near the end of the travel, probably at or past the limit switch, so I am not going to worry about it. Even the bearings on the Y were in bad shape. I am not sure what explains that, they are fairly isolated from debris. But they were packed full of junk.

The Y bellows on my machine are in good shape, but could have been replaced at some point.

I suspect a part of the Y screw being in such bad shape is the hole that can be seen in the following shot:



The hole is in the mounting bracket for the X screw and allows oil (and whatever it picks up) to drain right on to the Y screw.

That hole is in a raised section of the casting, for the X screw to mount to, so it can't drain the saddle until it is flooded. On my machine, there was quite a bit of oil draining down there because I was losing a lot of my oil out the X (all) ball nut.

Other than the impact mark on the X ways, both X and Y do not show a lot of wear.

The Z ways (turcite) are in bad shape from my inspection tonight. I took the Z off the machine. I will post pictures in a couple days.The right side appears to have run dry for a long time...




That was my thought too. I am glad to hear that a check valve works.

I have already purchased check valves and needle valves so I could try and get even oil flow to all three axis.

I will also be converting the screws to grease and have a pneumatic greaser.

I also have covers for the screws to keep debris out. Grease holds swarf/dust/etc in the nut better and can be worse than oil if not careful.



Thanks for the reply's.

[nitewatchman]

How do you fix the ‘turcite’

Take a look at Moglice by Devit machine. Just had a CNC Planer rebuilt with a 52 foot table and a 110 foot bed rebuilt using this stuff.

Have used it in the past to repair ways and restore nuts on feed screws.

[mcleodjm]

I am not sure how I am going to handle it yet.

I have not worked with turcite (or whatever this is) before. I know it can be scraped down, which I would like to avoid. It can also be removed and replaced, which I really want to avoid.

I am trying to figure out right now if I can cut out a section and just replace the small area that needs it.

This is for the small fix that is causing the leak on the X ways. I will probably be giving the Z a light scraping.

[mcleodjm]

Take a look at Moglice by Devit machine. Just had a CNC Planer rebuilt with a 52 foot table and a 110 foot bed rebuilt using this stuff.

Have used it in the past to repair ways and restore nuts on feed screws.

Hi nitewatchman,

Moglice would be ideal, but my understanding is it needs to be applied to bare metal. Is that correct?

If that is the case, I could still cut out the damaged turcite, prep and pour in moglice.

Thanks!

[rowbare]

No matter if you replace the turcite or moglice it, you have some scraping in your future. From your pictures, it doesn't look like the turcite is in that bad a shape. At the very least it isn't lifting or peeling. The oil grooves could be laid out a bit better but at least they aren't cut down to bare metal. If you have gib adjustment left, you might be able to get away with scraping the existing turcite back to flat. You won't really know until you blue it up on a surface plate though.

There is a very active and helpful Machine Scraping and Reconditioning forum on Practical Machinist. If you post some pictures there, I am sure someone much more knowledgeable than me will point you in the right direction.

bob

[mcleodjm]

Hi Bob,

Yeah, I figured I would have some scraping, I had hoped to keep it to a minimum and get this machine back in service. I do have quite a bit of gib adjustment left.

It looks like I will be doing some scraping. I have only scrapped small things before, like compounds. I will post over at PM for some guidance before I get over my head.

Thanks!

[mcleodjm]

Update:

Saddle is painted. It does no match the rest of the machine, but I would rather have good paint on it.



I got the head off the machine. I had a small heart attack on first inspection. The turcite is what I would consider heavily worn.



The turcite on the left in the picture below (right side when installed on the machine) is very brown for some reason. Also, it may be hard to notice, but it is very worn and the worst is at the bottom. You should be able to so see the area that does not make contact with the Z ways. That is the innermost half inch or so.



Here is a shot after light rubbing on a blued surface plate. The raised section That does not contact the way is very visible.





I am not sure the best way to evaluate this, so next I flipped it over. Then I propped it up on parallels on each corner. The parallels only contact the turcite and only where it bears on the ways. I made sure the parallel was not on the unworn/un-scrapped strip.




The side that was getting the least oil has the most wear. Not too surprising I suppose.

I am not sure how good my measuring technique is, but I measure about 0.009" difference over about 6". The seems bad to me, am I crazy?

I am a little worried the ways may have some wear too and I am not sure how to go about measuring it.

[rocklebeau]

What is the Serial Number of your 1100?

[mcleodjm]

What is the Serial Number of your 1100?

I don't remember exactly, but it is 32X. 326 I think.

[mcleodjm]

Thanks for posting all this - you are doing a great job. If you keep up this focus you will make a real difference.

"I am not sure how good my measuring technique is, but I measure about 0.009" difference over about 6". The seems bad to me, am I crazy?

Yes 0.009" is bad, sorry to say. If that is what the error is - did you/can you use a 2-3" micrometer. And what is it like at the far end? Or is that the central measurement? is it curved or angled?

Funnily enough I am just doing a video on Tormach Z lubrication - should be published in a couple of weeks. Send me a PM if you want to discuss or an early link, but I have no quick and simple answer for you.

Cliff

Hi Cliff,

Sorry about not responding in so long. I have been busy with work and scraping.

I caught your video on lubrication, the felt is a great idea and I will be copying you. I have been trying to think of a way to put at least a crude bellows on on the top of the Z axis and I think it is going to be a lot of work. I think felt will be great for now.

Before I mic'ed the Z slide, I figured it would be a good idea to check/scrape the top flat. Glad I did, it was out by a lot.

As it turns out the wear on the Z is bad, but not nearly as bad as I thought. I guess the casting had warped over time, I can only assume the grind job from the factory was good. I have spent a couple hours per night for over a week now rough scraping the top of the Z slide into flat and it is finally there. About halfway through I realized I should have had it ground. I will scrape for bearing points over the next couple nights.

I did take a measurement with the micrometer tonight and the "heavily" worn side has 0.0016" more wear than the "good" side. The good side still has 0.002" of taper in it. With the weight of the head and the lack of maintenance on this machine, it is not surprising I suppose.



I have my own idea on balancing lubricant flow for the axes, or at least helping with that, I will post some pictures by the end of the week.

Cheers!