Reply with QuoteJohn Grismo did a video on it, link below. I would say you would know by the sound coming from it. An automotive stethoscope could help you pinpoint the noise.
How do you know when spindle needs replacing?
How do you know when spindle needs replacing?
My spindle seems to cut like it always has but I have noticed a little different noise coming from the spindle than I was use to hearing.
Any one out there replace theirs with a new tormach cartridge?
How did that go?
Any special tools needed?
Any experience input would be appreciated.
Thank you
Nathan
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Re: How do you know when spindle needs replacing?
John Grismo did a video on it, link below. I would say you would know by the sound coming from it. An automotive stethoscope could help you pinpoint the noise.
Originally Posted by smorell
Thanks for the link and input
Re: How do you know when spindle needs replacing?
Maybe some others with first hand experience will chime in. In my experience bearing noise is bearing noise. I had the wash tub bearings go out on my washing machine and it sounded just like a car or anything else. Unfortunately, car wheel bearings are much easier to replace than my washing machine.
Re: How do you know when spindle needs replacing?
Replacing the cartridge is really easy. Less than 30 minute job, less than 10 after you've done it once or twice.
Pull the PDB and drive pulley.
Set a wood block on the table and lower the Z until the spindle nose is 1/4" or so above the wood.
Remove the bolts and let the spindle rest on the wood, then raise the Z-axis. Installation is just the reverse process.
The other option is to rebuild your spindle. This is much more difficult but can be done.
Re: How do you know when spindle needs replacing?
I have gone through several sets of bearings (more than two or three) on my 1100 and I keep a spare spindle ready to swap. In December the spindle got really loud very quickly, the normal sing went to a growl. I swapped out to the spare spindle and it was also not sounding good.
After getting new bearings which is another horror story (Tormach came through and saved the day), I disassembled the spindles put in new bearings and was back in business. The two spindles exhibited the same failure but in different modes. The original spindle had a damaged first lower bearing (bearing closest to the collet). In the past couple of years we have cut a literal mountain of Ductile Iron parts. The downside of cutting ductile is the fine dust produced. We used a dust collector and catch most of it but enough of the dust worked it way into the first lower bearing to damage the balls and races hence the noise.
The second spindle also had a damaged first lower bearings but this one was from coolant. The grease was washed out and rust had developed on the bearing races and balls. Initially I was confused about how this could have happened. Then I realized what must have occurred. I also use Tormachs 24K Water Cooled Spindle and simply remove the standard spindle and slip the High Speed one in its place. Both the original spindle and the spare are kept in the machine base. The spindle I removed was being run with flood coolant and when I replaced the standard spindle back into the machine I must have grabbed the spare. The coolant on the spindle sat for a couple of months and did it worst.
Anyway one spindle bearing was killed by metallic talcum powder type dust and the other was killed by coolant in the bearings. The root cause however is the same. There is no actual seal on the spindle nose of the spindle. There is a slinger ring to but this does not work well at low speeds or if the spindle sits idle with the coolant running. I have started looking at adding a lip type seal to the nose of the spindle cartridge. Lip seals are typically designed to keep grease and oil inside the device they are mounted to, if you want to keep stuff out - turn the seal around backwards.
Anyway back to the question. Listen for a growl at higher speeds, a rumble at low speed. You may also hear a squeal when the spindle starts indicating the bearing race is spinning in the housing or on the spindle itself. If you have a load meter pay attention to it at high speeds. Even a relatively quiet bad bearing can require half of the motor power just to turn the spindle at 5100RPM. Spindle noise is also a little insidious. It will gradually worsen over time and you will not notice until it is really bad and then be amazed how quiet it is when it is repaired. Hearing the noise at high speed can also be difficult due to the horrible noise and vibration produced by the stock fan. A really bad bearing can also get very hot.
If you have access to a press the bearing can be changed out in about an hour and a half BUT I fine that I will put the spindle back in the machine test, remove and adjust the preload, test, adjust, test, adjust, etc. until the spindle runs at sustained max RPM with a measured heat rise to about 130F to 150F. Realistically this will consume a Saturday or a long evening.
gary
Hi Gary
Thanks for sharing your experience.
I would like to learn more about how to seal coolant from the bearings.
I don’t have a load meter so am just going off sound.
Have ordered a new spindle from tormach.
I will probably use my current one until the noise gets worse. Right now it is a light clicking I can hear at low speeds.
My machine is 4 years old with moderate use so I guess it is time.
Thanks
Nathan
QUOTE=nitewatchman;2144968]I have gone through several sets of bearings (more than two or three) on my 1100 and I keep a spare spindle ready to swap. In December the spindle got really loud very quickly, the normal sing went to a growl. I swapped out to the spare spindle and it was also not sounding good.
After getting new bearings which is another horror story (Tormach came through and saved the day), I disassembled the spindles put in new bearings and was back in business. The two spindles exhibited the same failure but in different modes. The original spindle had a damaged first lower bearing (bearing closest to the collet). In the past couple of years we have cut a literal mountain of Ductile Iron parts. The downside of cutting ductile is the fine dust produced. We used a dust collector and catch most of it but enough of the dust worked it way into the first lower bearing to damage the balls and races hence the noise.
The second spindle also had a damaged first lower bearings but this one was from coolant. The grease was washed out and rust had developed on the bearing races and balls. Initially I was confused about how this could have happened. Then I realized what must have occurred. I also use Tormachs 24K Water Cooled Spindle and simply remove the standard spindle and slip the High Speed one in its place. Both the original spindle and the spare are kept in the machine base. The spindle I removed was being run with flood coolant and when I replaced the standard spindle back into the machine I must have grabbed the spare. The coolant on the spindle sat for a couple of months and did it worst.
Anyway one spindle bearing was killed by metallic talcum powder type dust and the other was killed by coolant in the bearings. The root cause however is the same. There is no actual seal on the spindle nose of the spindle. There is a slinger ring to but this does not work well at low speeds or if the spindle sits idle with the coolant running. I have started looking at adding a lip type seal to the nose of the spindle cartridge. Lip seals are typically designed to keep grease and oil inside the device they are mounted to, if you want to keep stuff out - turn the seal around backwards.
Anyway back to the question. Listen for a growl at higher speeds, a rumble at low speed. You may also hear a squeal when the spindle starts indicating the bearing race is spinning in the housing or on the spindle itself. If you have a load meter pay attention to it at high speeds. Even a relatively quiet bad bearing can require half of the motor power just to turn the spindle at 5100RPM. Spindle noise is also a little insidious. It will gradually worsen over time and you will not notice until it is really bad and then be amazed how quiet it is when it is repaired. Hearing the noise at high speed can also be difficult due to the horrible noise and vibration produced by the stock fan. A really bad bearing can also get very hot.
If you have access to a press the bearing can be changed out in about an hour and a half BUT I fine that I will put the spindle back in the machine test, remove and adjust the preload, test, adjust, test, adjust, etc. until the spindle runs at sustained max RPM with a measured heat rise to about 130F to 150F. Realistically this will consume a Saturday or a long evening.
gary[/QUOTE]
Re: How do you know when spindle needs replacing?
Something to check real quick. I had a drive belt making a goofy clicking sound for a while. I would need to move my mill out to an open shed /carport to run cast iron. I did a few small parts and that dust and smell is still in my shop a year later.
Re: How do you know when spindle needs replacing?
For quick reference I loosened the belt on spindle. Put a 1/2 drill chuck tts in and turned spindle by hand. Smooth moving to me would indicate little to no real bearing damage. My spindle does not run hot, so I'm guessing the factory bearing preload is ok.
Re: How do you know when spindle needs replacing?
To us right now that is what money smells like. These castings have produced enough revenue to replace the 1100 a couple of times.
Maybe I’m getting you confused with another owner but didn’t you get a larger vmc like a brother or haas, Gary?
QUOTE=nitewatchman;2146270]To us right now that is what money smells like. These castings have produced enough revenue to replace the 1100 a couple of times.[/QUOTE]
Re: How do you know when spindle needs replacing?
Man after my own heart!! I also use and sometimes abuse machines but if it results in enough cash at the end of the day it was worth it.............
My old Bridgy comes to mind, I use the auto travel on X to tig parts in a fixture HF and, guys have said you will ruin that machine, they are probably right but it made a bunch of money in the process, a simple case of the end justifying the means............
mike sr
Re: How do you know when spindle needs replacing?
No not me, still using the 1100. Except for a few tenth's more backlash in the screws, it is still about the same as new. I have been pushing a LOT of way lube through the machine to keep things flushed out and it seems to help.
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