Friday's - How The Heck Did They Make This Part - Episode #1

[smokediver576]

Happy Friday to all my fellow Tormach owners out there. Got an idea to post up every Friday a thread for where people can post up - "How the heck did they make this part" - get ideas - go out to the shop over the weekend and try and make it.

So I'll start this off. Looking at the part, I can figure pretty much everything out except how did the do the internal part. Mind you, that hole is only about 1/4" in diameter. I'll be very interested in what folks come up with.



On a side note.... My Slant Pro accessories pallet arrived on Wednesday and the lathe should be here first part of next week!!!!! I'm sure my future Friday's - HTHDTMTP will be lathe related for awhile.

Later,
Awall

Similar Threads:

• Need Help!- how can make this part
• Need Help!- I need someone to make me a part!
• Best way to make this part
• Can anyone make this part for me.

[Zetopan]

They used a milling cutter with a cutting length equal to the length of those cutouts and a reduced shank to clear the lip, while indexing the part to each cutout position. If you have a cutter grinder you could profile a cutter to do just that; using the modified cutter with a rotary table or indexer.

[smokediver576]

They used a milling cutter with a cutting length equal to the length of those cutouts and a reduced shank to clear the lip, while indexing the part to each cutout position. If you have a cutter grinder you could profile a cutter to do just that; using the modified cutter with a rotary table or indexer.

So basically like a super small key slot cutter (diameter equal to the inset contour) yet small enough to fit into the 1/4" hole. Would it have to be indexed or could you program the mill to drop into the Z position and then follow the profile of the 8 sided pattern?

[kstrauss]

That sounds about right. Keyseat cutters are commercially available with the necessary shape (see attached photo). There is no reason that the cutting length can't be less than the length of the cutouts -- just lower the cutter past the lip into the hole, feed into the cut, raise/lower the cutter as required, move back to the centre of the hole and retractt.

What is the item part of?

[wildwhl]

So basically like a super small key slot cutter (diameter equal to the inset contour) yet small enough to fit into the 1/4" hole. Would it have to be indexed or could you program the mill to drop into the Z position and then follow the profile of the 8 sided pattern?

I think I could program that with a key slot cutter of proper diameter, multiple depths roughing, and then possibly a finish pass.

BTW - great idea for a weekly thread to help us all make the gears turn

WW

[smokediver576]

That sounds about right. Keyseat cutters are commercially available with the necessary shape (see attached photo). There is no reason that the cutting length can't be less than the length of the cutouts -- just lower the cutter past the lip into the hole, feed into the cut, raise/lower the cutter as required, move back to the centre of the hole and retractt.

What is the item part of?

https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...cm-mcmr-sm.htm

How the heck do they make that part for $17 retail...... At minimum a two op part. Machine, tumble, paint, laser.... wow!

[Steve Seebold]

That’s actually an easy part to make. I would do the profile with a 3/8 end mill and the top surface with a 3/8 ball end mill.

[Steve Seebold]

https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...cm-mcmr-sm.htm

How the heck do they make that part for $17 retail...... At minimum a two op part. Machine, tumble, paint, laser.... wow!

Wrong! Machine, deburr, bead blast, black oxide, laser etch, package, ship.

$17.00 in steel? Ain’t gonna happen. Aluminum is pushing it.

[popspipes]

https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...cm-mcmr-sm.htm

How the heck do they make that part for $17 retail...... At minimum a two op part. Machine, tumble, paint, laser.... wow!

May be a forging or cast and/or made overseas, the raised logo to me indicates its cast or forged.

I used a keyseat cutter to cut a slot in an inner bore on a small part, in Sprutcam I used the "normal" entry to enter the part in the center of the bore to a depth then cut the slot and retract the same way, I did scrap a few parts getting it right.

[Switcher]

The rough finish looks like the part was cast and some finish work done, ID, chamfers, OD cleanup.

[smokediver576]

So I guess another twist on this topic would be, "how would you go about pricing something like this".

Customer comes in and says, "hey we've got this super Ninja part that will sell like Budweiser! However, we need to order 10 up front for fit testing". They "say" after the initial 10, we "should" be ordering in batches of 100 to 500 pcs at a time. However, well issue POs on this as IDIQ (indefinite delivery - indefinite qty)..... meaning we might see big qty or maybe..... not.

(1) Would you price full value of your CAD/CAM, fixtures, spindle time, raw materials etc. into the first 10 or roll the dice that they are going to order at least 500 pcs and spread that initial costs divided by the 500 pcs?

(2) At what point would you invest in making fixtures to help you throughput of parts knowing that the customer is not going to pay for that part?

Just more food for thought on this crazy topic.

[kstrauss]

I would quote a price for 10 based on no fixtures (assuming that is feasible). Perhaps offer a discount on the first 10 based on estimated likelihood of many 500/week orders. Something like "$500/10 and $5000/500" or whatever your normal pricing dictates. If the job absolutely requires fixtures to make even ten then price the fixtures separately and charge for them. That would allow them to know their ultimate cost if the item sells well and you don't lose your shirt if things don't work out. If you've almost certain of additional orders then perhaps offer to eat some of the fixture cost but make it clear what you are doing.

If at all possible no special fixtures made until the first real order for 500 with a definite delivery date.

[Jim Dawson]

On short run production that requires fixturing, I charge a one time setup charge that will recoup some of the cost and I hope the customer orders enough to make it worthwhile. Any special tooling is also figured into the setup charge. Sometimes you win sometimes not. Having said that, concider that I'm semi-retired, have a very low overhead, and all of the equipment is paid for.

[smokediver576]

I would quote a price for 10 based on no fixtures (assuming that is feasible). Perhaps offer a discount on the first 10 based on estimated likelihood of many 500/week orders. Something like "$500/10 and $5000/500" or whatever your normal pricing dictates. If the job absolutely requires fixtures to make even ten then price the fixtures separately and charge for them. That would allow them to know their ultimate cost if the item sells well and you don't lose your shirt if things don't work out. If you've almost certain of additional orders then perhaps offer to eat some of the fixture cost but make it clear what you are doing.

If at all possible no special fixtures made until the first real order for 500 with a definite delivery date.

Curious on something, when I was in the screen printing business as part of our product offerings - we would charge a screen charge, however the customer did not "own" the screen. Same for if we did the custom artwork. We charged for our time but in the end the artwork and screens were not given to the customer at any point. In the machining world (small garage guys and gals like me), does the same thing apply? Say I do all of the CAD/CAM work from their coffee napkin drawing, make fixtures to hold the parts and run a batch. Do they own the files and fixtures if you charge for any part of that time/costs? Now, this is assuming that you did not charge them the total time/costs (in order to keep from scaring them off with sticker shock). Assuming you will recoup some of your money for your investment when you get additional production work.

This part is a perfect example. By the time I CAD/CAM this up, build some fixtures to hold the parts for the second op and run some test parts to validate prior to building the 10, I can only imagine that we'd be talking about a fairly large bill for those 10. That's if I charged my true time/costs.

Just thinking out loud here on a Friday afternoon when I should be working.....

[Jim Dawson]

Curious on something, when I was in the screen printing business as part of our product offerings - we would charge a screen charge, however the customer did not "own" the screen. Same for if we did the custom artwork. We charged for our time but in the end the artwork and screens were not given to the customer at any point. In the machining world (small garage guys and gals like me), does the same thing apply? Say I do all of the CAD/CAM work from their coffee napkin drawing, make fixtures to hold the parts and run a batch. Do they own the files and fixtures if you charge for any part of that time/costs? Now, this is assuming that you did not charge them the total time/costs (in order to keep from scaring them off with sticker shock). Assuming you will recoup some of your money for your investment when you get additional production work.

This part is a perfect example. By the time I CAD/CAM this up, build some fixtures to hold the parts for the second op and run some test parts to validate prior to building the 10, I can only imagine that we'd be talking about a fairly large bill for those 10. That's if I charged my true time/costs.

Just thinking out loud here on a Friday afternoon when I should be working.....

I have never thought of the fixtures and drawings to be customer property, even if they paid for them. I guess it could be argued that they own them since they paid for them. Most of my quick drawings would be useless to anyone else anyway. I have never had the subject come up with any customer of mine. A stamping shop I did work for did charge the customer for the die building and the customer owned the die. But in that case the dies cost thousands of $$$$

[popspipes]

Curious on something, when I was in the screen printing business as part of our product offerings - we would charge a screen charge, however the customer did not "own" the screen. Same for if we did the custom artwork. We charged for our time but in the end the artwork and screens were not given to the customer at any point. In the machining world (small garage guys and gals like me), does the same thing apply? Say I do all of the CAD/CAM work from their coffee napkin drawing, make fixtures to hold the parts and run a batch. Do they own the files and fixtures if you charge for any part of that time/costs? Now, this is assuming that you did not charge them the total time/costs (in order to keep from scaring them off with sticker shock). Assuming you will recoup some of your money for your investment when you get additional production work.

This part is a perfect example. By the time I CAD/CAM this up, build some fixtures to hold the parts for the second op and run some test parts to validate prior to building the 10, I can only imagine that we'd be talking about a fairly large bill for those 10. That's if I charged my true time/costs.

Just thinking out loud here on a Friday afternoon when I should be working.....

Most of the guys I know want one or a few parts, not enough to justify fixture and cad cam costs.

The business to be in is selling cnc machines, accessories and tools for them, there seems to be some real money in that.............

I bought my machine for retirement projects mainly and to learn the software related to it, that worked out very well, not so much on the money making aspect of it............

[joshetect]

Really it all depends on what the contract says.

In my main field (architecture) the CAD files are the instrument, not the final product. They are paying for your machining services and the final product.

If you are concerned about loosing business because of setup fees, you can either eat them, or offer a discount on future orders of that particular product.

That said, a good contract should be high priority. This way you are covered

[coffeetek]

Personally, I would price 10 of them at full price with everything, CAD/CAM fixturing etc. because you don't know whether job is coming back.

Then I would create quote for 500 pieces and credit difference between price for first 10 parts at 500 quantity price and initial price paid. Say 10 pieces where at $100 each so first bill was $1000. 500 pieces are say priced at $20 each so 10 pieces at $20 is $200. Credit of $1000-$200=$800 against total price for 500 pieces 500x$20=$10,000-$800 credit. Make sense?

That way everyone is happy and you don't get screwed if they take job elsewhere. Prototyping is not cheap...

[spumco]

What is the item part of?

Quick-release rifle sling adapter.

Oval-ish tabs insert in to (generally) a rifle forearm with slots (think AR-15) and are tightened. Center hole receives sling swivel mounted on a stud that has a spring-loaded ball that sticks out (think socket driver or ball-lock). Internal features in the center hole capture the ball to permit indexing the sling (or whatever) to the preferred angle while still retaining it until you press the button on the stud to release.

Push the button - BAM! You're now Tommy-Tactical and can ditch the sling or use it to tie up the ninjas you just captured.

Actually, they're quite nice and BCM makes pretty good stuff; I just like making fun of gun-nerd trinkets. (as I sit here CAD'ing up a 2011 slide milling fixture)

[MichaelHenry]

Curious on something, when I was in the screen printing business as part of our product offerings - we would charge a screen charge, however the customer did not "own" the screen. Same for if we did the custom artwork. We charged for our time but in the end the artwork and screens were not given to the customer at any point. In the machining world (small garage guys and gals like me), does the same thing apply? Say I do all of the CAD/CAM work from their coffee napkin drawing, make fixtures to hold the parts and run a batch. Do they own the files and fixtures if you charge for any part of that time/costs? Now, this is assuming that you did not charge them the total time/costs (in order to keep from scaring them off with sticker shock). Assuming you will recoup some of your money for your investment when you get additional production work.

This part is a perfect example. By the time I CAD/CAM this up, build some fixtures to hold the parts for the second op and run some test parts to validate prior to building the 10, I can only imagine that we'd be talking about a fairly large bill for those 10. That's if I charged my true time/costs.

Just thinking out loud here on a Friday afternoon when I should be working.....

At work we have custom steel rule dies made periodically for some of our experiments which we order from the company that does the gasket cutting. They'll store the dies for us or let us keep them. So far, whenever I've made custom fixtures for outside parts, I keep the fixtures, and I always keep the CAM files and G-code, though I'd be willing to sell those to a past customer for the right price.

Years ago a previous employer had an experimental fuel cell test system custom-fabricated but failed to request the source code for the instrumentation software. The vendor quoted them a rather large amount of money to make any changes and I think that they may have refused to sell the source code. That was an expensive lesson to learn.