Tormach 1100 VS Haas OM1 OM2 OM2a CM1 or other???

[CadRhino]

Aaahh, I love hearing you say that Steve

That's a definite yes. I can do anything on my Tormach you can do on a FADAL, Haas or any of those high dollar machines, it's just going to take a little longer.

[LazyMan]

Wow, thank you for your insight.

Regarding your tormach, would you say it can pretty much do what the haas can (tolerances/repeatability) but at a much slower rate?

Glad to hear you are still using your tormach and congratulations on moving up to a 'real' vmc

I bet you are stoked

I generally find it easier to make more accurate parts the first time around on my Haas over my Tormach especially with being able to measure tool diameter easily. However, the Tormach is plenty accurate and is repeatable and once parts are dialed in you can make great parts. There are so many variables that can throw off the accuracy such as warping from work holding and parts warping after machining and the most accurate machine is not going to fix that.

[CadRhino]

Thanks for the comparison and insights. I plan on keeping my tormach but want a has like you have but with a 4th axis and phase converter. It sounds like I need to come up with $100k.

I generally find it easier to make more accurate parts the first time around on my Haas over my Tormach especially with being able to measure tool diameter easily. However, the Tormach is plenty accurate and is repeatable and once parts are dialed in you can make great parts. There are so many variables that can throw off the accuracy such as warping from work holding and parts warping after machining and the most accurate machine is not going to fix that.

[AUSTINMACHINING]

Thanks for the comparison and insights. I plan on keeping my tormach but want a has like you have but with a 4th axis and phase converter. It sounds like I need to come up with $100k.

I think you can do a lot better than a HAAS for 100k. I would look at the Brother speedio series or Even a robodrill. Chip to chip tool changes time In one second. Lighting rapid speeds etc.

[Steve Seebold]

Thanks for the comparison and insights. I plan on keeping my tormach but want a has like you have but with a 4th axis and phase converter. It sounds like I need to come up with $100k.

If you buy a Haas tool room mill or a Mini, they will both run on single phase power. The only thing I didn't like about my TM1 was its 4000 RPM spindle. I had a service guy tell me when I get it paid for he would come out and change some codes to make the spindle 6000 RPM.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I would bet any of the Haas machines would be a good deal more accurate than any machine in the Tormach class, by virtue of better, closed-loop servo drive systems. For sure the bigger/more expensive machines use dual-loop servo drives, which provide precise position and velocity control, and thermal compensation, compared to the open loop position-only control on virtually all hobby level machines. I don't know if that extends down to the Mini-Mill and other smaller/cheaper machines, but I would not be surprised if it did. They do, at a minimum, provide closed-loop position control. This kind of drive provides not only much higher performance (600-1000 IPM rapids), but will also create parts with far less dimensional variation from part-to-part as ambient temperature varies throughout the year.

Regards,
Ray L.

[CadRhino]

Thanks for your insight, Ray.
You hav a Novakon, right? Is it the model with servoes?
Do you consider it a hobby level machine? You use it to make your products right?
Thanks


QUOTE=SCzEngrgGroup;2065172]I would bet any of the Haas machines would be a good deal more accurate than any machine in the Tormach class, by virtue of better, closed-loop servo drive systems. For sure the bigger/more expensive machines use dual-loop servo drives, which provide precise position and velocity control, and thermal compensation, compared to the open loop position-only control on virtually all hobby level machines. I don't know if that extends down to the Mini-Mill and other smaller/cheaper machines, but I would not be surprised if it did. They do, at a minimum, provide closed-loop position control. This kind of drive provides not only much higher performance (600-1000 IPM rapids), but will also create parts with far less dimensional variation from part-to-part as ambient temperature varies throughout the year.

Regards,
Ray L.[/QUOTE]

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Yes, both of my Novakons have AC servos (though the Torus Pro was a stepper machine when I first bought it), and yes, I consider them "hobby" mavhines, albeit at the high end of "hobby", like the Tormach. But, still, I wouldn't put either up against a commercial VMC, like a Haas. I make ALL of my products on the Novakons, mostly the Torus Pro, due to its huge work envelope (X25" x Y15" x Z16"), but I don't expect to get better than +/-0.001" accuracy across a production run, and design accordingly. With a Haas, you can easily work all day to a few tenths. This is an inherent characteristic of the basic machines - the Haas is MUCH stiffer, has more accurate balls screws, I would assume linear ways on ALL axes, not just Z, and dual-loop servos with glass scales, rather than the single-loop servos and rotary motor encoders on the Novakon. Each one of those contributes significantly to both accuracy and repeatability. And, of course, with higher spindle speed, and more powerful spindles, most of the Haas machines will run circles around our machines in terms of production time with both larger and smaller tools.

Regards,
Ray L.

[CadRhino]

That makes sense.
thanks for the insight!


QUOTE=SCzEngrgGroup;2065340]Yes, both of my Novakons have AC servos (though the Torus Pro was a stepper machine when I first bought it), and yes, I consider them "hobby" mavhines, albeit at the high end of "hobby", like the Tormach. But, still, I wouldn't put either up against a commercial VMC, like a Haas. I make ALL of my products on the Novakons, mostly the Torus Pro, due to its huge work envelope (X25" x Y15" x Z16"), but I don't expect to get better than +/-0.001" accuracy across a production run, and design accordingly. With a Haas, you can easily work all day to a few tenths. This is an inherent characteristic of the basic machines - the Haas is MUCH stiffer, has more accurate balls screws, I would assume linear ways on ALL axes, not just Z, and dual-loop servos with glass scales, rather than the single-loop servos and rotary motor encoders on the Novakon. Each one of those contributes significantly to both accuracy and repeatability. And, of course, with higher spindle speed, and more powerful spindles, most of the Haas machines will run circles around our machines in terms of production time with both larger and smaller tools.

Regards,
Ray L.[/QUOTE]

[CadRhino]

Thanks for the recommendation. I am not familiar with those brands. Hass' are so ubiquitous that I just assumed they would be easier to get servicing and parts for. I am open to a different machine if it is easy to find a tech and service.
Actually, my (future) budget is currently between 60-80k for a NEW machine WITH a 4th axis.
Any recommendations?
Thanks

I think you can do a lot better than a HAAS for 100k. I would look at the Brother speedio series or Even a robodrill. Chip to chip tool changes time In one second. Lighting rapid speeds etc.

[mountaindew]

I think you can do a lot better than a HAAS for 100k. I would look at the Brother speedio series or Even a robodrill. Chip to chip tool changes time In one second. Lighting rapid speeds etc.

I have a question for all the pros in this business that make big piles of shiny accurate parts.
What do you do for stock prep? No matter what I make it seams like i spend more overall time on my tormach prepping stock for the part or parts to be machined. From my experience, any material size that does not fit into a 5c collet requires some prep and that prep is not easy and or fast from my experience. Fast accurate vmc is fun, slow stock prep takes all that fun back.

Those Ninja fast z moves are scary to watch on youtube. Looks like the machine would need to be bolted to floor

[IMT]

Thanks for the recommendation. I am not familiar with those brands. Hass' are so ubiquitous that I just assumed they would be easier to get servicing and parts for. I am open to a different machine if it is easy to find a tech and service.
Actually, my (future) budget is currently between 60-80k for a NEW machine WITH a 4th axis.
Any recommendations?
Thanks

Speaking of Brother CNC take a look at the M140X1.

It's out of your price range(~$150K) but does 5axis indexing and turning at insane speeds.

[CadRhino]

I prep my round stock on a lathe and rectangle stock on cold saws.

I have a question for all the pros in this business that make big piles of shiny accurate parts.
What do you do for stock prep? No matter what I make it seams like i spend more overall time on my tormach prepping stock for the part or parts to be machined. From my experience, any material size that does not fit into a 5c collet requires some prep and that prep is not easy and or fast from my experience. Fast accurate vmc is fun, slow stock prep takes all that fun back.

Those Ninja fast z moves are scary to watch on youtube. Looks like the machine would need to be bolted to floor

[CadRhino]

Wow, that is faster than my Tormach lol

Speaking of Brother CNC take a look at the M140X1.

It's out of your price range(~$150K) but does 5axis indexing and turning at insane speeds.

[LeeWay]

I've got things that will make holes faster, but they are gunpowder driven.

[CadRhino]

Faster maybe but are you repeatable and within .0001 😱🤓

I've got things that will make holes faster, but they are gunpowder driven.

[LeeWay]

Probably not, but I don't always require tolerances that tight.

[IMT]

I've got things that will make holes faster, but they are gunpowder driven.

Lol! I make holes that way too. Hard to control depth though and position tolerance is +\-1" at best. 😀

[mountaindew]

I prep my round stock on a lathe and rectangle stock on cold saws.

If your having any tolerance problem then this would be the first place to check. I have found NO way to clamp rough stock in any fixture or vise other then 5c stock material and get it square to the mill xyz axis! If the stock is not square in the vise jaws your going miss any thru drilled holes by a mile in anything other then material less then 1/2" thick! Also you get misaligned mill operations from on each side when you flip parts for operations.
I mentioned this in another thread when a user was not getting the accuracy he expected, then I giggled because 3 post above someone had said the exact same thing almost word for word

[AUSTINMACHINING]

I have a question for all the pros in this business that make big piles of shiny accurate parts.
What do you do for stock prep? No matter what I make it seams like i spend more overall time on my tormach prepping stock for the part or parts to be machined. From my experience, any material size that does not fit into a 5c collet requires some prep and that prep is not easy and or fast from my experience. Fast accurate vmc is fun, slow stock prep takes all that fun back.

Those Ninja fast z moves are scary to watch on youtube. Looks like the machine would need to be bolted to floor

For milling in the vise,any rough shape will work as long as the part does not move whill machining datums that will be used in subsequent operations. I routinely machine hole/features on all 6 sides flipping the part in the vise many times without issue. I rough cut my stock on a horizontal band saw. I have a 3 jaw chuck mounted to the table for machining round stock. I haven't used a 5c collet, but seems like you could miil whatever geometry you need to hold the part,in the first operation.