New Tormach RapidTurn product

[MichaelHenry]

Did anyone else notice today's announcement from Tormach? It will be interesting to see how it is priced.

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[AVRnj]

Tormach RapidTurn

[GLCarlson]

Hmmm. $3K. Good idea. Obviously synergizes with other products. But for that kind of money I can build a harmonic drive 4th axis.

[tmarks11]

I hope that is being made for them by Steve Simpson, after all of his hard work to modify his InTurn product to make it compatible with PathPilot. It looks similar to his product.

It really looks like it is missing some of the capabilities of what he has, as the Tormach video shows manual indexing using spacers, whereas Steve's video shows coordinated spindle and A axis movement.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...ml#post1777512



Regardless, this looks like a huge step up from the discontinued Duality lathe.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

I hope that is being made for them by Steve Simpson, after all of his hard work to modify his InTurn product to make it compatible with PathPilot. It looks similar to his product.

It really looks like it is missing some of the capabilities of what he has, as the Tormach video shows manual indexing using spacers, whereas Steve's video shows coordinated spindle and A axis movement.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...ml#post1777512



Regardless, this looks like a huge step up from the discontinued Duality lathe.

I can promise you Steve had nothing to do with the RapidTurn. And for that kind of product, Steve's InTurn is the gold standard. He has developed his product to an incredible level of precision and performance.

Regards,
Ray L.

[MichaelHenry]

I believe that Steve's product uses a 1-HP servo motor, to be supplied by the user which, so far as I know, incorporate encoders and his system also includes a disc brake to hold the spindle fixed for milling operations. Those features let it be used as a true 4th axis so it has a few more capabilities than the Tormach system. The Tormach RapidTurn is a bit more like some other guys product that used a 1/2-HP induction motor and some funky interesting tool holders that were mounted in the mill spindle. The turning spindle seemed to be based on a speed lathe that feature somewhat poor runout - something like 1.5 or 2 thou. The latter was around $5k list with one or two tool holders but the owner/inventor seemed willing to deal a bit on the price.

I suspect that Steve Simpson's product has more features/capabilities but is more expensive by the time all the hardware to install and run it is purchased and each will be good choices depending on the users needs.

[daniellyall]

InTurn™ MEGA Duty 4th axis US$ 2,950

[smokediver576]

I'm going to be very interested to see this in action at the open house. I'm in the process of converting an Emco PC105 to servo and PathPilot but now I'm thinking this may be a better option for me. Wish Tormach would have told me that something was in the works back in February when I purchased the Emco.......!!!! At that time my only choice was a Slant Pro which was a weeeee bit out of my budget right now.

[pickled]

I was an early purchaser of the Duality and am still not impressed with it after all these years- go figure :-). I'll let some other folks bite on this one and let me know if it is a viable product before seriously eyeballing it. I wonder how much it weighs? They state that it can be used on the 770. There is no way that I would have tried to put a duality on my 770's bed. It fit well on the footprint of my 1100, but was still a PITA to mount and dismount. I am assuming that the tailstock for this unit will be one of the existing options for the 4th axis unit?

[kstrauss]

Bob Warfield has some material about the RapidTurn on his website at RAMTIC: Fast Super-Precision Manufacturing on Cheap Machines - CNCCookbook CNCCookbook

"They’ve thoughtfully included an upgrade kit at a lower price for Duality Lathe users. They can upgrade for $1695. If you don’t have a Duality Lathe, you can get a RapidTurn for either $2195 for the Starter Kit or $2795 for the Deluxe Kit which includes more accessories such as 5C collets."

I hope that his pricing info is correct! Tormach says "shipping in June".

[smokediver576]

Am I correct in concluding it has no spindle encoder or stepper etc so it cannot be used as a 4th axis of for cutting threads?

Keen

They talk about it being able to cut threads in the video....... If no threads then I'm out.

[tmarks11]

Am I correct in concluding it has no spindle encoder or stepper etc so it cannot be used as a 4th axis of for cutting threads?

It has to have an encoder, otherwise there would be no way to synch the spindle with axis movement to cut threads.

Looking at today's Tormach blog post, it is pretty clear that this was an in-house development, not in anyway related to Steve Simpson's inTurn. Too bad, I think they missed a bet, because Steve's inTurn axis has a lot more features, and it was already compatible with PathPilot.

I like that Steve included a D1-4 cam lock spindle so you could easily use a three-jaw chuck on it. The Tormach RapidTurn has a 5C spindle nose with a drawbar.

https://www.tormach.com/blog/rapidturn-origins/

[MichaelHenry]

Keen - it can't be used as an automatic indexer, but it apparently does have a way of counting revs so as to make threading possible. From what Bob Warfield posted on CNC Cookbook, it sounds like the spindle is sealed against coolant somehow, which would be nice.

[daniellyall]

the fan end looks open, they have mist the boat you could get the same thing a 100 years ago, but if one wonted to you could change it, but I would think they should of just done it like how Steve did it, but the big man is not there any more what shows now

[MichaelHenry]

InTurn™ MEGA Duty 4th axis US$ 2,950

To that you'd have to add a motor and the controller that Steve sells. I'm no expert, but when I checked, a quality 1 HP servo and drive were $1500 minimum (that was for Mitsubishi, which Steve recommended a few years ago) and his controller adds another $500. That brings you to around $5k, quite a bit more than the RapidTurn cost. You've also got to work a way to mount the drive an controller electrics as well as the support circuitry. I think that Steve's InTurn is a terrific product and a few steps above the RapidTurn in capability, but most home shops will find the RapidTurn easier and cheaper to acquire and set up. The bottom line is that users have at least a couple of good choices now.

[Tbkahuna]

The Duality lathe has a disc with a single notch on the back of the spindle and a sensor that hooks into the accessory port. It only synchs that one time per revolution. Tormach has a white paper explaining it as I recall. As long as you do not take too deep of a cut, the spindle speed stays constant enough to cut threads. I use the duality and have cut threads in aluminum, steel, and 303 stainless. I did not use a relief groove and just pulled the tool out and the end of each pass with the program and even that was very consistent and no issues. Light passes, but it works. I would guess the new machine with more hp would do a better job. I wondered about adding a disc with more than on notch per rev on the duality. Maybe they do that on the RapidTurn.

[kstrauss]

TurboStep has demonstrated using a multiline encoder with PathPilot to do rigid tapping. There should be no reason that something similar cannot be done with the RapidTurn.

[tmarks11]

I wondered about adding a disc with more than on notch per rev on the duality. Maybe they do that on the RapidTurn.

Looks like the have four "notches" per revolution.

If you look at the drawing in their blog, you can see the position sensor (PN29), and there is a disc (no PN, but it is the one you can see under the PN1 cover) which looks like it has a hole at 90 degree intervals that the sensor interacts with.

Surprised they didn't just use a real encoder with a belt drive like they did on the SPL15 lathe.

[vmax549]

It would not be hard to change out the motor and belts with a servo and change the belt to a timing belt . Just use a servo with a built in brake (;-). The best of both worlds or you could add a brake easy enough.

(;-) TP

[simpson36]

Well, it did not take long for several people to direct my attention here!


Tormach's replacement for the Duality Lathe is a step up, no doubt, but it is functionally the same.

The new Rapid Turn™ appears to be designed to appeal to Tormach's target market. They have a certain business model than works well for them and this new product fits that model.

However, other than the fact that the InTurn™ and Rapid Turn™ both have a lathe Turning function, the similarities end there.

The InTurn™ is targeted at the commercial market and the new ULTRA is targeted at heavy commercial/light industrial. In these markets, industrial level AC servo drives from Mitsubishi. Yaskawa, AB and others are not considered to be overly expensive.

The only comment that I would like to correct is that an InTurn™ MEGA 'requires' a $1,500 Industrial AC Servo. Motors are not supplied for a reason. A hobby user might be happy with an Gecko Servo drive and a DC brush motor which together cost about $300. Commercial use is completely different and while cost is a factor, it is several rungs down the list. If I am asked what it the cheapest useable motor or what it the best motor, the answer is obviously different.

Secondly, the InTurn™ 4th axis motor controller is $500 for MACH3 and it is a 'system' that adds a laundry list of features to MACH3 and comes with custom screens and a complete set of M-code macros that can be embedded into G-code to perform fully CNC controlled Mll/Turn operations. That product also controls a servo driven spindle if one is available.

That controller was hacked by yours truly to provide basic functionality with Path Pilot so that users who already had these controllers would be able to move to Path Pilot without loosing Mill/Turn altogether. Once this is done, the advanced features of the controller are no longer available. The full $500 MACH3 controller system is not required for Path Pilot.

One thing is certain, after the current production run, the price on the MEGA is going to be increased significantly based on the price of the Rapid Turn™