[PCNC 1100] Perpendicularity of X Y motion - Out Of Spec.

[CNCer__]

Please kindly update on perpendicularity issue. As a prospective Tormach customer I am interested in Tormach's response. How is this issue to be rectified?
Regards
MJK

I'll update on this soon. I also got few PM with the request for an update, so I'll back with the new info. I'm still waiting for a professional diagnostic made by experienced guys. It looks like there is more than the perpendicularity issue. Tormach support is quite slow and they are looking to secure their interest first, not wery helpfull.

[rowbare]

There is lot of talk about how you are holding your square but nothing really said about how the machine is set up. The only thing I saw was some oblique reference to having levelled the base. That in itself is not enough. I know on my very old Tormach ( ser# < 50), even after careful levelling, I have to selectively tighten the 4 nuts securing the mill to the base to get it good and square. I typically get two of the bolts good and tight and the other two are just beyond snug. That is more than enough to keep it secure. Granted the older bases had a few issues wrt the height of the pads but you don't have to be off much to twist the base.

I am sure that by now you are aware that Tormach tests the machine in a 3 point stance. i.e. the two rear mounting pads and one placed in the centrer front (not bolted down). Unless you have replicated this for your tests, your measurements aren't a sound basis for comparison to the inspection sheet. It is a quick enough test to perform, loosen the 4 base bolts, lift the front of the mill just clear of the pads and block it up in the middle. Using the stand's levelling feet, level the mill in X and Y and run your tests. As has been endlessly discussed here, lose the vise and clamp the square to the table if for no other reason than that is how it was done at the factory.

Once you have done this, if you find that the mill is out of spec, it will be a lot harder for anyone to refute your claims. If you find it is in spec, then you have to pay close attention to how you set up the machine. Put it back on the 4 pads without bolting it down, run the test, if anything has changed, shim the feet till it is back in spec. Tighten the bolts one at a time and check after each bolt to make sure it is still square. While this is beyond what I think you should have to do, you clearly have a problem that needs some special attention to sort out.

Good luck and I hope you are making chips soon!
bob

[DOVEJR8]

The number of issues with my new PCNC 1100 is already overwhelming, for me anyway. The last one I've currently discovered is the perpendicularity of X-Y motion. I can really make a horror stories videos titled: how badly my machine is made. Backing to the subject perpendicularity of X vs Y motion - I can explain this issue in a few lines as per below, plus a short video. Is there anything else than poor manufacturing to cause this issue? In other words, can it be fixed somehow? I'll be probably forced to return this unit to Tormach for a refund. However, it's a nightmare for me as I'm in Ireland and that's so much hassle to pack it and send back to US with all accessories like an e.g. deluxe stand, etc..

Perpendicularity of X-Y motion:

Allowable error (as per factory certification):
0.04mm per 200mm

Factory measured (as per factory certification):
0.02mm per 200mm

User reading (new machine), calculated from the below measurement:
0.10mm per 200mm

User reading (new machine):
0.075mm per 155mm

VIDEO of the measurement: HI-Res
VIDEO of the measurement: Lo-Res
VIDEO of the measurement with DTI: HI-Res
VIDEO of the measurement with DTI: Lo-Res

Tools used:
- certified (Grade A) Granite Square
- Haimer 3D-Sensor New Generation
added video test with
- Mitutoyo 513-405T Dial Test Indicator (0.002mm Graduation, +/-0.003mm Accuracy)
- Noga NF 1022 Centering attachment

There's a 15% restocking fee if I'm not mistaken. I recently purchased a 1100 serious and had issues but have since then worked them out with Tormach. I will be doing a final check this weekend to verify that the unit works well.

I have a new unit and needed to adjust the Gibson. And tighten my X and Y axis ball screw nuts in the shafts enclosure. The manual gives an overview of how to do it but youtube is your best teacher. Also shim the unit if the z axis is not perpendicular to the table. Loosen the 4 bolts and make small jack to enable you to put permanent shims where needed. John Saunders on YouTube has a great shim video. I hope this helps.

[TurboStep]

...Also shim the unit if the z axis is not perpendicular to the table. Loosen the 4 bolts and make small jack to enable you to put permanent shims where needed. John Saunders on YouTube has a great shim video...

There are lots of different opinions regarding this procedure. In my opinion you should be careful to determine the cause of the error first, and then decide on be best method to correct it. If the base is nice and flat but the column is not perpendicular to the Y ways then adding shims under one corner won't straighten the column, but it will twist the base - not a great idea. However, if the base is twisted for some reason then shims should be added to remove this twist.
If I remember the video from John correctly he didn't give me the impression that he'd investigated the cause of his misalignment.
Step

[1875]

Problem solved yet?

[Steve Seebold]

Problem solved yet?

As long as he continues to hold his part in one end of the vise, he's not going to get a square part.

[G59]

As long as he continues to hold his part in one end of the vise, he's not going to get a square part.

After watching his video, only other thing I can think of, he is doing measuments of the square face off of the moveable jaw of the vise. Poor practice and not reliable.

[flick]

After watching his video, only other thing I can think of, he is doing measuments of the square face off of the moveable jaw of the vise. Poor practice and not reliable.

It's true that using the movable jaw as a reference is poor practice, but the thing you have to ask yourself is, "What's the reference?". In this case, one side of the square is measured with reference to the other. The vise doesn't enter into the equation. It just happens to be holding the square. You could hold the square with a vaccum table, or velcro, or nothing but gravity and a sly smile. If you assume the square is square (and OP assures us it is), and that it has not moved during the measurement process, then you must conclude that the mill is not square.

[philbur]

It's true that using the movable jaw as a reference is poor practice, but the thing you have to ask yourself is, "What's the reference?". In this case, one side of the square is measured with reference to the other. The vise doesn't enter into the equation. It just happens to be holding the square. You could hold the square with a vaccum table, or velcro, or nothing but gravity and a sly smile. If you assume the square is square (and OP assures us it is), and that it has not moved during the measurement process, then you must conclude that the mill is not square.

It is not clear if people are refusing or just failing to grasp this simple fact, especially those that have been doing this for 40 years and apparently have nothing left to learn, lol.

Phil

[flick]

It is not clear if people are refusing or just failing to grasp this simple fact, especially those that have been doing this for 40 years and apparently have nothing left to learn, lol.

Phil

I imagine we're dealing with a little of both, but I haven't gotten tired of saying it yet, so I keep holding out hope that the message will get through.

[Steve Seebold]

It is not clear if people are refusing or just failing to grasp this simple fact, especially those that have been doing this for 40 years and apparently have nothing left to learn, lol.

Phil

Sorry Phil, but I've been in Machining for 56 years and there is ALWAYS something new to learn.

[popspipes]

I would imagine that Tormach is addressing the problem or we would have heard more from the poster.

Forums are good in a lot of respects but bad in others, I was never a fan of "airing dirty laundry" on a public forum.

The manufacturer should have a chance to remedy the problem first.

[IMT]

Any resolution to this yet?

[BIGBLOCK1965]

Forums are good in a lot of respects but bad in others, I was never a fan of "airing dirty laundry" on a public forum.

The manufacturer should have a chance to remedy the problem first.

I agree, sadly there are some people who view the forum as a place to cry "Mommy Mommy" rather than allowing the manufacturer a reasonable chance to resolve an issue. Then to compound the problem they often fail to post when the problem has been resolved, leaving the impression that the manufacturer was totally remiss.

[GJeff]

We're all big boys. We should be able to figure out who is crying "mommy mommy" and who is airing a legitimate gripe. As long as the reporting party is being honest, there should be no social taboo to accurately recounting the events taking place. I'll agree that it is a problem if a there is resolution and the complainer never follows up, however.

We're not doing ourselves or Tormach a service by always siding with the company simply because we're Tormach owners. The foreign companies that make these machines will take every opportunity possible to cut corners. When problems arise they should be addressed. The louder and more quickly the better IMO.

Also note, I ended up buying my Tormach after reading a heated thread about someone complaining about their Tormach, and I was impressed by the way it was handled by the company. In the same way I love having Steve and Ray on these forums to battle things out, I appreciate the battles between the sellers and their demanding customers.