PCNC 440 vs 770 vs ??? for newbie

[bimmersix]

Hey everyone,

I've been lurking for a few months as I got into the maker movement about a year ago with a nice delta 3D printer build. I've always enjoyed building things, and the growing accessibility of motion control (precise FDM printers running on $50 Arduino controllers and boards) and design technology (like Fusion 360) has allowed me to design some products that hopefully will make their way to consumers within a year or so.

This has nothing to do with my education or day job. I've learned a lot already by reading and private messaging with people from CNC Zone.

Intro aside, I would like to get my first CNC mill, and I'm pretty well set on a 440 or a 770. Other suggestions are welcome, however. I don't need a bigger work envelope than the 440 offers for any of my current projects, and am completely happy with the size. However, with shipping, the increase to get a 770 would only be about $1500, and I don't want to cheap out by getting the 440 if it's a little more like a toy than the 770. I have read through the specs sheets a few times, so I know the differences on paper.

I can afford either one, but for a first machine don't want to spend more than necessary for prototpying and cutting in aluminum. What is your advice? Bear in mind that I've done a lot of reading, so now I'm looking for the caveats that are brought by the experience that I lack but that many here do not. Thanks!

Joel in Phoenix

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[kstrauss]

Some considerations that you may not have thought of:
The 770 is a proven design (I've had my for over 3 years) so there should not be any surprises such as the recent issue of the spindle starting when PP crashes

There are many experienced users here who can help you over any problems

Some planned options are not yet available for the 440 including insofar as I know a PDB, ATC, 4th axis and automatic oiler

The RapidTurn isn't available for the 440

The work envelope of the 440 may be sufficient for now but needs change. You may want to make many small parts in one setup which is particularly advantageous if you don't have an ATC. Also, don't overlook the space required for clamps, long drill bits/reamers and tapping heads even when making small parts.

Just a few considerations. If you haven't guessed I'm a happy 770 owner!

[mattz0r]

I spent a LOT of time debating between the 440 and the 770. I went with the 440 for the reduced footprint and weight, and especially the reduced cost. Going with the 440 made it easier to find a cheap table that would comfortably support the weight, and also made it easier to move around. The 440 also has a handy lift point, whereas the 770 needs the lift kit. Note that there is no extra throat on the y-axis of the 440 so if you mount your vise along the y-axis, you'll lose a few inches of y envelope. I mounted my vise along the x-axis so I am able to use the entire 440 envelope. I believe the 770 has a bit more throat so this isn't a problem. The reduced throat on the 440 should be good for rigidity though, making up for the reduced weight somewhat. Most of my work on the 440 will be with plastic so I'm not as affected by the reduced power as you might be working with aluminum. I'm also not super concerned with tolerances, which in theory the 770 should hold better.

If I had a permanent location for the mill, and money wasn't a factor (inc. table/enclosure cost), I would have gone for the 770. If you include the Tormach table and possibly the enclosure, the 770 becomes a lot more expensive. Going for the 440 (no package) allowed me splurge on some cool tools like my Haimer. In the distant future I can definitely see myself upgrading - perhaps if Tormach releases an 1100 with 10k spindle and faster table speeds!

[bimmersix]

These are great pros and cons. Just what I was hoping to see. Thanks to you both for your help.

We are 1 v 1 so far, so I need some tiebreakers!

[phoneman]

I also have a 770 with 4th axis. The 440 was only a gleam in tormachs eye. From what I have seen on YouTube reviews of the 440 it looks to be a very good machine. As was stated earlier if you projects grow in size you may run out of room for the bigger projects. I run a lot of small end mills and use the 10200 RPM limit of the 770 a lot. I believe the 440 has a slower spindle speed.
If I were buying a machine now I still think I would go with the 770.

Dave

[GLCarlson]

These are great pros and cons. Just what I was hoping to see. Thanks to you both for your help.

We are 1 v 1 so far, so I need some tiebreakers!

Every time I hear this question, I remember a long-ago machinist saying that you'll never regret more envelope, more horsepower, or multiple control options. He was a tad more blunt. The 440 has only an e-stop -no manual lockouts, which makes it a nonstarter in my mind. And as noted, it's a developing design; I'm sure the 440 will be terrific, eventually. For 1500 difference, I'd get the 770. No question.

Think strategically. You ARE going to have -or want- more equipment. What size working envelope fits your ideal? Mine is a foot in all dimensions (or thereabouts- my lathe is 13", my 1100 is 9+ on the y axis). Pick your envelope, then pick your tools. You'll be a lot happier over the years.

[kstrauss]

The specs say that both the 770 and 440 have a 10,000 rpm spindle.

If you are seriously into small cutters, the Speeder (#31350) will give 30,000 rpm on the 770 but I don't believe that it is compatible with the 440. The 24,000 rpm water cooled spindle (#35178) is only for the 1100.

[tmarks11]

770, no question.

1. 770 has a great design for flood coolant (the 440? Not so much).
2. 770 has higher precision ground ball screws
3. 770 has a bigger envelope
4. 770 has a tried and true induction motor/VFD combo. I am suspicious of BLDC motor/drive combos, as there have been a lot of hobby levels machines with those that have not stood the test of time. I wouldn't expect Tormach to make a bonehead mistake here, but this is a new design, so you never know
5. 770 design is well tested, no growing pains. 440 already has growing pains with the newly released Leadshine driver that came installed on the first round of machines having a design flaw that led to un-commanded spindle action (scary!).

The 770 is significantly more machinery for only slightly more money. If you have the space get it!

[Advil]

I looked hard at both machines. If you really, truly don't need the extra .25hp, the extra work envelope or the manual controls then the 440 makes sense. It's light, you can get it installed and running pretty fast. The 770 dictated I get a pallet jack and an engine crane from harbor freight to move it into position. It's far less massive than an 1100 and runs on 110v but it's still over 800lbs which for reference is the weight of a complete small block engine. Add to that the stand and chip tray which aren't light. And you'll NEED the stand and chip tray on the 770. Unless you are a serious welder and have a lot of scrap lying around you should spring for the stand and chip tray because building it from scratch without those skills and materials on hand is not reasonable.

If you are going ultra-frugal You can probably get a 440 going for over $3k less than than a 770 by the time you actually start making parts, if you can live without the stand and chip tray and aren't going to flood cool.

That said, the 770 is a substantially more stout machine that simply does everything the 440 does... better. If you are keeping it forever and you aren't planning on moving any time soon I'd still recommend the 770.

Let's say you may want to run a bunch of different metal projects and you want major flexibility. That was my goal. I wanted to have dual 5" vises on the table so I could do several different setups quickly
1) clamp part(s) directly
2) clamp a long part in both vises
3) clamp a fixture plate the size of the entire X/Y work envelope in both vises for rigidity.
4) clamp one small fixture plate and have something else in the other vise.

Sure you can take the vises on and off and put the plates right down on the table but it depends on how often you change jobs and how random your needs are.

The work envelope of the 440 in Z especially, and also somewhat in X and Y really makes using vises larger than 4" impractical as your table size and Z height are simply very limited.

As a VERY new 770 owner and still a total newbie I'd still say from my own purchase experience that if you are prototyping for parts that may make you real money you need to stretch that $1500 and get the 770. You never know what you will make next and you may want a lathe or 4th axis add-on someday. The 440 is also still early days and while Tormach's service has really been top notch I'd choose the established 770 or 1100 if time is money and you don't want to go through the phase where they are working all the kinks out.

[coffeetek]

As a 440 owner who wanted 770 I can tell you go for 770 if you can fit it. Price difference is not that much, but 770 is much more tested machine.

Don't get me wrong, I really like my 440, it works well, cuts metals well, I like it a lot. But its still, as they said before, developing machine, beta version I would say. I had problems with spindle starting unattended, that was now resolved with new Leadshine drive. This problem actually highlighted another problem which is that there is no spindle lock button to ensure that spindle can't start while you are say using Haimer to probe... Then I have also open issue where if I open the door on top to change the tool and close it, spindle does not want to start and I have to reboot whole machine to get it back. Sometimes I can get it to start by opening/closing top door again. (Switch is OK, verified)...

I went with 440 because of space constraints not price. I wish I go could have gotten 770 just because its been longer on the market and bugs are worked out. However, if you can tolerate niggles worked out and 440 fits you, 440 it is :-)

[Steve Seebold]

I considered selling my 1100 and buying either a 440 or a 770, then I got a 250 piece job that requires a .125 diameter hole 6.5 inches deep in 3/16 thick 7075 aluminum and neither the 770 nor the 440 has the Z axis height to accommodate that. The part is 7.5 inches long and the drill sticks out of the tool holder 7 inches.

I have a 6 inch Quad 1 vice mounted on its side to hold the part.

[bimmersix]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I was kind of torn because: I've never operated a CNC mill before, I'm not purchasing with the expectation (only the hope) of paying for it with side work, and I don't want to spend ~$10K on something when $8K would do. I want it for learning and prototyping purposes. I have a few product ideas involving extruded 6063 or 6061 profiles, and they would require some post-extrusion machining. If they ever come to pass, it will be much better for me to have my own for low-volume work than to rely on a job shop.

However, with some of the points brought up here, I think I'll be going with the 770 for its time-proven design, better ballscrews, and larger work envelope. I'm trying to keep the cost down without skimping on quality, so I am building my own PP controller and I'll be using a different stand and chip tray for the time being. If these work, I'll be happy to share with the forum. If they suck, well, I'll probably share that too as a cautionary tale =)

[CadRhino]

If you have the space, the 1100 will give you more growing room.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I was kind of torn because: I've never operated a CNC mill before, I'm not purchasing with the expectation (only the hope) of paying for it with side work, and I don't want to spend ~$10K on something when $8K would do. I want it for learning and prototyping purposes. I have a few product ideas involving extruded 6063 or 6061 profiles, and they would require some post-extrusion machining. If they ever come to pass, it will be much better for me to have my own for low-volume work than to rely on a job shop.

However, with some of the points brought up here, I think I'll be going with the 770 for its time-proven design, better ballscrews, and larger work envelope. I'm trying to keep the cost down without skimping on quality, so I am building my own PP controller and I'll be using a different stand and chip tray for the time being. If these work, I'll be happy to share with the forum. If they suck, well, I'll probably share that too as a cautionary tale =)

[tmarks11]

I'm trying to keep the cost down without skimping on quality, so I am building my own PP controller...

Since path pilot is not real finicky about hardware that is a good way to save money.

[pickled]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I was kind of torn because: I've never operated a CNC mill before, I'm not purchasing with the expectation (only the hope) of paying for it with side work, and I don't want to spend ~$10K on something when $8K would do. I want it for learning and prototyping purposes. I have a few product ideas involving extruded 6063 or 6061 profiles, and they would require some post-extrusion machining. If they ever come to pass, it will be much better for me to have my own for low-volume work than to rely on a job shop.

However, with some of the points brought up here, I think I'll be going with the 770 for its time-proven design, better ballscrews, and larger work envelope. I'm trying to keep the cost down without skimping on quality, so I am building my own PP controller and I'll be using a different stand and chip tray for the time being. If these work, I'll be happy to share with the forum. If they suck, well, I'll probably share that too as a cautionary tale =)

I think that you will be quite pleased with the 770. I have the 770 and an 1100 here and I use both machines consistently. I find the 770 an extremely capable machine that does some near magical things with 3/8" and smaller carbide tooling! Don't get me wrong. You can still use a twist drill well and fly-cut etc., but the 10,000 RPM spindle is very nice for productivity when machining features and performing any engraving operation. I find that my 770 will interpolate a 2" boss in stainless steel or titanium and be within 0.0015" of true diameter.with minimal ovality.

The only drawback I see is the Y axis motion. I couldn't imagine having less Y travel than the 770 for the stock preparation that I typically must perform. I'm fortunate that I can make my tooling plates for the 770 on the 1100 and all of my plate hold-down fasteners are then effectively outside of the reach of my cutters. Error proofing at its best :-) LOL! Remember that having CNC capability just allows for expansion of your own creativity. It allows you to actually produce the things that have been bouncing around in your head for years, or that you may have had show up in a dream the previous night :-). If you have the available resources then there is really no need to constrain or handicap yourself. Good luck!

[LazyMan]

Buy the 770. Its bigger, has more power, more accurate, and has the PDB option. $1500 will feel like nothing after its all done....If space is not an issue and you are serious about the hobby you will probably regret it later.

[bimmersix]

Everyone, thanks for the input and help. I've learned a lot already by reading and talking with a few of you. It will be a few weeks to months before I'm ready to make the financial commitment, but I am pretty well set on the 770 now.

[dleute]

Hey bimmersix,

I'm curious what you decided on. I am making the same decision myself. I am, however, also considering the even smaller Taig DSLS 3000. Why? Because my prototypes can be made in a variety of materials. Let's not pretend there is any comparison between the taig and the tormach. But as a "learning what not to do" machine, I'd be a lot less frustrated breaking a taig over a tormach. If I am ever to make money it will be through kickstarter, I would simply set the kickstarter in such a way that it can help fund the tormach.

I will say, path pilot is pushing me hard toward tormach. I have a demo of mach 3 and I am planning on installing a demo of path pilot in a VM. Based purely on videos/screenshots they are like night and day in terms of usability. But if I were only considering between 440 and 770, it would be 770.

You get your 770?

--Derrek

[C*H*U*D]

... I am, however, also considering the even smaller Taig DSLS 3000. Why? Because my prototypes can be made in a variety of materials.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this. Tormachs can machine any materiel a Taig can.

[dleute]

Ha! Yeah, sorry that wasn't clear. I meant the reverse:

I meant that I don't necessarily need the rigidity of the tormach to prove my prototypes work. I would be hesitant to pick the taig if I knew I could only work in 316 stainless for a valid prototype. I know it *can* do it, I don't know that a beginner CNCer should be jumping to that so quickly on a taig. As it is, I could do most of my prototypes in plastics which the taig should have no issues milling. I could do some in wood. I definitely need other metals like brass/copper/aluminum.

I have had multiple machinists, some of who started on a taig, tell me to not bother with it and jump to the tormach, any tormach. At least one of these said this on the basis of looking at one of my projects. I just don't know how much of that is "I would never want to work on a taig again now that I work on a tormach" vs "I really could not have done this at all on the taig". The former translates into "It was so slow and so many manual tool changes, ugh" vs "taig can't do it". I'm ok with the first thing, I'm not ok with the second.

Anyway, tough decision. Been haunting me for many weeks already.

--Derrek