PCNC 440 vs 770 vs ??? for newbie

[dleute]

That's a good point. I'll be working on small parts for a while. I'll likely stick with er16 as much as possible. If er11 hits before I need my really small bits, I'll go for that then.

[dleute]

I have to say, my experience with tormach "legendary" support has not been very impressive so far. Most of the issues have come in the form of employees not knowing what they can actually provide to me.

My goal was to see if one of my existing computers could serve as the tormach controller to save on cost and help justify a 770 purchase. This is supposedly possible through a DIY computer conversion to path pilot. I was attempting to save money since I have several computers available and may be able to get one of them working (none of them are a dead-on match to their specs). However, tormach does not offer a reasonable way to install their software or hardware on it until *after* you have purchased your tormach. This makes no sense to me at all.

That's all fine, but I've gone through the run-around twice now. First I ordered the part I needed, get contacted and told I couldn't have that part, try this one over here (which is just an over priced dvd that they don't list on their site). That part over there won't actually solve the problem and still requires me to purchase the original part (at some point). So I cancelled the order (hopefully they were able to re-route the package). But the real reason I cancelled the order was because they didn't tell me the pricing of the new part or shipping (which was just a DVD) and it was outrageous for what it was (almost the same as the package with the same software and a PCIe card).

Then I contacted general support on the advice of the order processing person. That person told me to order the part I originally ordered. And, of course, I couldn't because they won't sell it to someone who doesn't already own a tormach. So I asked about ordering it and *then* he responded with sorry we can't sell you that (again) after just telling me to buy it one e-mail previously.

Everyone has been very nice. But I am exasperated by the run around. And this raises some serious red flags as a company to me. I want to buy a part to make sure I can use their capabilities correctly while saving me enough money to just squeak their product into my already overblown budget (it still might not make it). Honestly, these are things I see from companies that aren't good at support usually. They may mean well, but they are just shooting themselves (and me) in the foot.

My budget is seriously maxed out. It was originally built around a Taig or a Little Machine Shop 3502. I came back to tormach when someone suggested I really take a hard look at what I need. Don't include *anything* I don't need (no starter sets, niceties, etc) and I might be able to get it to a price I can live with. I have gotten pretty close. But I am completely out of things I can cut. I've started to eliminate workholding options, and that just seems like a bad idea. (then my wife informed me she really wants me to have an enclosure at my budget and I pretty much laughed).

So, I'm curious if anyone can recommend any other brands? Novakon and Charter oaks both end up costing more (really 1100 competitors) and don't fit my tasks as well (slower spindle). On the smaller front, taig and the little machine shops 3502 (a 3501 with an enclosure) seem like the next best thing. The 3501 even has an available 20k spindle. I don't have the security of all the gadgets I could buy eventually (ATC.. etc), but they meet the budget.

Are there any other smaller (and less costly) options? Perhaps something between the LMS 3501 and a PCNC 440 in terms of weight and rigidity?

Thanks!

--Derrek

[joshetect]

Cant help you with the other machines, but I can tell you that you can buy the MESA card elsewhere

I went through the same thing when I tried to get my controller setup ahead of time. I ended up still getting the card when I bought the machine, but I had one of their approved motherboards so I wasnt too worried.

this thread has some useful info in it, along with the mesa card part #'s
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...-software.html

[dleute]

Cant help you with the other machines, but I can tell you that you can buy the MESA card elsewhere

I went through the same thing when I tried to get my controller setup ahead of time. I ended up still getting the card when I bought the machine, but I had one of their approved motherboards so I wasnt too worried.

this thread has some useful info in it, along with the mesa card part #'s
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...-software.html

That's a really good point. Because my machine isn't on the approved list, I'm actually more worried about the software installation than the card working. However, to go this way, I'm already at 1/3rd to 1/2 of the cost of their controller and none of it is returnable when it doesn't work. I could also build my own system to their spec (I've been building computers since I was 10), but again, it's cost and time. I would also spec something quite a bit better, like a small SSD.

Honestly, the deterrent for me is a lot less about the money and a lot more about what this means as a customer of tormach. Being able to support me in a case like this gives me peace of mind. I very well may discover I can't use one of my own computers, and then I would have a financial choice. They effectively took that option away from me for some selling policy. Doesn't exactly make me comfortable with them as a company. And I'm not so sold on tormach that all that extra work is worth it over, say, a competitor that simply includes the controller on all systems (Charter Oak). I could spend that time solving the spindle speed problem on that system.

Anyway, just a bit let down. I thought I was a matter of days from finally ordering something and instead I'm back to another machine search. In hindsight, when I ruled out the 440, I probably should have just stopped looking at tormach.

--Derrek

[C*H*U*D]

... (then my wife informed me she really wants me to have an enclosure at my budget and I pretty much laughed)...

Sorry to hear about your frustrations while trying to get your purchase figured out. I can't help with Tormach's sales policies, but if an enclosure is high on your wife's priority list (as it rightly should be...these things can be messy), look through this forum for some of the DIY enclosures that others have made. I run an inexpensive "PVC pipe frame/clear shower curtain" setup on my 770 and it works great. It's not the most pro looking solution, but the official Tormach enclosure is way out of my budget (and overpriced if you ask me).

[IMT]

Honestly, the deterrent for me is a lot less about the money and a lot more about what this means as a customer of tormach. Being able to support me in a case like this gives me peace of mind. I very well may discover I can't use one of my own computers, and then I would have a financial choice. They effectively took that option away from me for some selling policy. Doesn't exactly make me comfortable with them as a company.

Try getting Haas, Hurco or DMG to sell you a copy of their controller software based on you telling them that you might buy their machine. Because Tormach based PP on LinuxCNC they have to sell it to the public, but can charge what it's worth. They basically give it away to previous customers that want to upgrade.

Seems to me that once PP came out Tormach has been moving towards a dedicated controller, won't be surprised if they stop offering the mills without the controller. On the 15L Lathe there is no option to get it without a controller (at least on the website options).

[C*H*U*D]

Seems to me that once PP came out Tormach has been moving towards a dedicated controller, won't be surprised if they stop offering the mills without the controller. On the 15L Lathe there is no option to get it without a controller (at least on the website options).

About 17 years ago, I worked for a company that made high resolution scanners for aerial photographs. Our scanners shipped with their own controller which was a PC that we configured. Using your own PC was not an option, and from a support standpoint it made total sense.

I think you are correct that one day Tormach will not allow anything but their own controllers to be used.

[kstrauss]

Having based their controller on open source, putting the genie back into the bottle will be difficult.

[C*H*U*D]

Having based their controller on open source, putting the genie back into the bottle will be difficult.

They could just remove the option to exclude their controller from the purchase price.

[kstrauss]

I have no law in my title either! However, https://forum.linuxcnc.org/pathpilot might be helpful.

[C*H*U*D]

I didn't change my response soon enough :-)

Tormach could just stipulate that they won't support anything but their own controllers. There's no legal consequence to that is there? I'm not sure, I'm just asking to find out myself.

[joshetect]

That's a really good point. Because my machine isn't on the approved list, I'm actually more worried about the software installation than the card working. However, to go this way, I'm already at 1/3rd to 1/2 of the cost of their controller and none of it is returnable when it doesn't work. I could also build my own system to their spec (I've been building computers since I was 10), but again, it's cost and time. I would also spec something quite a bit better, like a small SSD.

--Derrek

Mine is running more ram, faster processor and a SSD. Runs great. PathPilot is based of linuxcnc like stated above, so in theory any computer that can be installed on should work.

I didn't change my response soon enough :-)

Tormach could just stipulate that they won't support anything but their own controllers. There's no legal consequence to that is there? I'm not sure, I'm just asking to find out myself.

I believe thats the way it is now.. Even if you do the DIY controller with their MESA card, there is no support offered from them. Which is understandable.

[kstrauss]

I wouldn't expect them to provide software support for issues resulting from using homebrew controllers but other aspects should be supported. Things are often not strictly a legal issue; they need to preserve their reputation for excellent support. Tormach has posted customer profiles (NASA?) of purchasers who don't even do machining on their Tormach.

Of course only offering their products with a controller should work. I doubt that Ford offers trucks without engines! And Tormach has never offered mills without ball screws... The danger of only selling complete packages is pricing their machines too high for some to afford.

[dleute]

Try getting Haas, Hurco or DMG to sell you a copy of their controller software based on you telling them that you might buy their machine. Because Tormach based PP on LinuxCNC they have to sell it to the public, but can charge what it's worth. They basically give it away to previous customers that want to upgrade.

Seems to me that once PP came out Tormach has been moving towards a dedicated controller, won't be surprised if they stop offering the mills without the controller. On the 15L Lathe there is no option to get it without a controller (at least on the website options).

Apparently I never sent this and it has been sitting in the comment box for days, so I'm sending it now.

IMT,

I am fine with tormach making a decision that says "only our controller". That's not the case here, they are saying "here you can do it yourself (they even provide a document), but if you do we can't support it (fine) and you can't test it before you buy the tormach (not fine)". It's not that they don't have the parts I need, it's that they won't sell them because of policy. I actually told them in an e-mail that it's being on the fence that is the problem. They should either make it easier for DIYers to save that bit of money, *OR* say "No, you have to buy our controller" and stop pretending DIY is an option. In that case, I highly recommended simply upping the machine cost and including the controller on all machines. I don't have an issue with either decision, but my budget for the last month has been planned around something I can't even test before pulling the trigger on a big purchase.

Honestly, if it had simply been built into the machine cost like many other options, I wouldn't be here having issues with it. Right now, I feel like I'm in something analogous to a bait and switch situation especially since all of this comes to light *after* I started ordering things from them.

CHUD,

The computer DIY is the only part of any of this that I am currently capable of doing myself. I know technology. I work in technology (this is one reason telling me this is the one thing I can't DIY is very frustrating, which is not tormach's fault, just reality). I don't have *any* other shop tools. I am buying everything I need for this machine including multi-cutter saw (for stock cutting) and a few other basic tools (I'm sure I've missed some, I have an "unknown" budget line for this purpose). I could build something out of 80/20 easily enough, but the parts and plastic (and time and design) all get far too close to the available enclosure cost. (The last parts list I saw was $1,800 for a fairly basic 80/20 enclosure, while tormach's is $2,550 with door safety switches. I found that parts list on another forum post and its years old meaning prices are probably higher now). I am still exploring this, but I'm not confident that I can get the cost down enough to make it worth the additional hassle.

The clear shower curtain is currently very high on the possibilities list. That I can do, not only that I can have the bottom be weighted/magnetic and land in the chip tray so very little should escape. I could also line it with some screening so end mill breaking doesn't just blow holes through the curtain (not sure what direction or if they would blow through). The thing it doesn't solve is I have a very curious 3 year old. Can't use their door latch protector on a shower curtain (well, ok, maybe there is a way, but still, a bit silly). I'm not entirely opposed to doing this in pieces (shower curtain until the machine has proved itself to me and is my long term solution, then enclosure, power draw bar, 4th axis).

kstrauss,

I agree putting the genie back in the bottle is tough. Also, there is a history of commercializing open source products where some strategies work and some don't. Most successful ones live with giving the code back to the community but make money off some resulting ecosystem. In this case, tormach sells machines. They would likely sell more machines as the "best" option for linux cnc users.

Anyway, a tormach may simply be too much money for me at this time based on my requirements. Reality is reality, time to scale back.

--Derrek

[Steve Seebold]

I have had an 1100 since July 2011 and I haven't regretted my purchase for even a minute.

Before I bought my machine I was vascilating between the 770 and the 1100.

After the 440 came out I considered selling my 1100 and buying a 440, but I make a model boat part that's 7.25 inches tall and I need to drill a hole 4 inches deep and the 440 only has a 10 inch window.

If I had it to do over again, I would have a hard time deciding between the 770 and the 1100.

[dleute]

Yeah, very few people regret their tormach. It's really amazing how much consistently positive feedback they receive.

In other news, the 770 is back on the table. I had a welcome and unexpected life change that made some money available.

Just dotting i's and crossing t's until I can order. Hopefully nothing else gets in the way.

--Derrek

[C*H*U*D]

Good luck Derreck and congrats on getting the 770 back into consideration. It really is a great machine, and I believe a BIG step up from the Taig or other bench-top machines.

[dannirr]

I have had an 1100 since July 2011 and I haven't regretted my purchase for even a minute.

Before I bought my machine I was vascilating between the 770 and the 1100.

After the 440 came out I considered selling my 1100 and buying a 440, but I make a model boat part that's 7.25 inches tall and I need to drill a hole 4 inches deep and the 440 only has a 10 inch window.

If I had it to do over again, I would have a hard time deciding between the 770 and the 1100.

This is my current dilemma. I am a hobbiest, and a newbie at that. I've been using a small, manual mill for years. I have a slant lathe (its my 2nd CNC lathe). Most of what I do is making or repairing parts for our car collection, as the cars are so old there are no parts available. Budget is not a concern, but space is. I can make the space for the 1100 if I have to, but the 770 would be much easier. I obviously don't want to compromise function merely to save space.

So, for those well versed with both the 770 and the 1100, does the 1100 offer significantly more than the 770? (I know the paper specs, I mean in the real world!)

[dleute]

I am not a tormach owner (yet). At the moment, I am not sure I will be. I have since discovered skyfire cnc. And I am trying to learn more about them before I make a decision (assuming their product is as claimed, they seem like an excellent option but they are also quite new and don't have tormach's reputation for excellent support). I am also a hobbiest newbie.

For me, the 770 is a better option. That primarily revolves around the spindle (*snickers*) and power source. 10k rpm and 110v power both make my life much easier. The 770 can use nearly every option the 1100 can (the 440 can't use a lot of them). The only exceptions are the bt30 spindle which I believe eliminates the possibility of an ATC (or even a power draw bar I think). So, unless you absolutely need the bigger motor or heavier weight of the 1100, I would say 770 is awesome.

One reason I am looking at skyfire is I get more machine for less money (or the same money) *and* it comes fully assembled. Plug it in, level it, maybe seal the enclosure if that's an issue and go. That is *hugely* appealing to me. Down side, if I can't get it through the door, I'm still in a disassemble/assemble situation.

That's my 2 cents. I really like tormach, but I haven't been sold on it yet. But, every owner I talk to loves them. Doesn't matter which machine. They love them, they love the support with very few caveats.

--Derrek

[kstrauss]

For me, the 770 is a better option. That primarily revolves around the spindle (*snickers*) and power source. 10k rpm and 110v power both make my life much easier. The 770 can use nearly every option the 1100 can (the 440 can't use a lot of them). The only exceptions are the bt30 spindle which I believe eliminates the possibility of an ATC (or even a power draw bar I think).

--Derrek

I believe that you have it backwards: the BT30 spindle eliminates the possibility of an ATC or power draw bar. I have an R8 spindle on my 770 and the power draw bar works perfectly. I decided that the ATC was not worth the price for my usage.