PCNC 440 vs 770 vs ??? for newbie

[C*H*U*D]

I see what you mean now...that makes more sense.

For what it's worth, I was looking at the Taig at one point as well. I knew it could make the parts I wanted, but felt it was too small if I ever wanted to make more than one item at a time. I went with the 770, and even with that I now run out of real estate quite often when I have multiple fixtures on the table. I started out with Mach3 but switched to PathPilot when it was released. So happy I did...Mach worked fine for me, but I really prefer the interface of Path Pilot, and Mach did have some quirks that I'm glad to be rid of.

Best of luck in your decision.

[dleute]

Interestingly, all of my projects are quite small in individual pieces. The work area is really only a problem in mass production scenarios where I want to make 50 of a part. I'm still struggling with workholding 50 small parts that need to be machined on 6 sides. But the issue isn't a work envelope issue. It's a workholding issue. I have yet to want to work on a part that is more than 3x3x0.25.

As a complete aside, I'm modeling a rail based clamp system that allows me to "stack" several clamps along the rails. It acts kind of like a double vise only you can vary whether it's a double, triple or more sections with soft jaws built for your specific part. Some of the soft jaws can be made flippable for different operation work holding on the same parts. I have no idea if it will work in reality, but it's something to do while I figure out which machine to purchase.

Thanks for your feedback! Everything seems to be pushing me toward the 770. (440 is a no-go). Is a basic tormach 770 (no 4th axis or other niceties) worth twice the price of a loaded taig for me? Wish I knew.

--Derrek

[al010964]

Hi Derrek,

You won't be disappointed with the 770, I went this way as I was very short on space. Generally I recommend the largest machine you can afford and fit, that said I do enjoy the 10k spindle more than I would use the extended foot print of the 1100.

As the sane goes 'buy once, cry once'!

Welcome to the forum.

Cheers,
.adrian

[dleute]

Thanks!

I just ordered the path pilot DIY kit to see if I can use a system I have available. I am hoping to save some money (or at least redirect it into other options). Are there any options you think are essential? The ones that really interests me is the power draw bar and passive probe (yay for automated edge and z finding!). It seems like those two would save me time and not cost an arm and a leg.

--Derrek

[al010964]

Thanks!

I just ordered the path pilot DIY kit to see if I can use a system I have available. I am hoping to save some money (or at least redirect it into other options). Are there any options you think are essential? The ones that really interests me is the power draw bar and passive probe (yay for automated edge and z finding!). It seems like those two would save me time and not cost an arm and a leg.

--Derrek

Without knowing exactly what you are trying to do or your most common stock materials these will be a little generic, power draw bar, great addition, If buying the probe, buy a few extra tips as you will likely go through a few learning the ropes. I have a heap of collets and tool holders, but that is because I use the tool library in sprutcam and I don't like resetting tool heights for each job, I set up an endmill in a tool holder generally for the life of the tool. It sounds like you might be running small tools, you may want to consider some er16 toolholders instead of all er20?. I do mainly aluminium, the fly cutter is great. Also think the enclosure was worth getting, and depending on your coolant requirements, the fogbuster is worth a look, one last thing .... get the shuttle jog. Then it just comes down to tooling and work holding which I won't really comment on as it sounds like you might have some pretty specific requirements.

Cheers,
Adrian

[joshetect]

Thanks!

I just ordered the path pilot DIY kit to see if I can use a system I have available. I am hoping to save some money (or at least redirect it into other options). Are there any options you think are essential? The ones that really interests me is the power draw bar and passive probe (yay for automated edge and z finding!). It seems like those two would save me time and not cost an arm and a leg.

--Derrek

I had tried that, and shortly after they said I needed a serial number of a tormach to buy it. If you do get it thats awesome if they removed that limitation.

I did the DIY controller, its pretty easy and the install went pretty smoothly for me. I happened to have one of their approved motherboards in one of my HTPC's I built a few years ago.

I started with a little machine shop mill, it was a good stepping off point. I learned quite a bit with it, now I mostly use it for small drilling ops and squaring up some stock if the tormach is running.

Unless you know 100% that you wont want anymore than that, get the largest one you can afford and fit in your workspace. Once you have one, it will open up a ton of new work/projects.

As far as accessories.. Measuring, Tooling, tool holders and work holding are going to be big expenses make sure you set aside a good chuck for that. There is so much you will find you will need that probably will come close to the cost of the machine. That was one of the great things for me going with the LMS mill at first, I got a lot of those expenses out of the way and had them ready when I got my tormach. I also learned that a lot of the cheap chinese tools just werent worth it (some are ok) and sometimes you have to pay to play....

I want a PDB bad, but its $1200 for the 1100 and there were some other things I wanted. And right now my time isnt as valuable as money lol. I did do a shower curtain enclosure, its cheap and works ok enough. It looks stupid but whatever, its really only me that sees it.

[kstrauss]

A few random comments:
Putting together your own control PC is a great way to save money. I've been running my machine using PathPilot on an old HP mid-tower that cost almost nothing. I love the touch screen. The jog shuttle sucks (chips easily jam the buttons). If they are still available the ninja boxes from pentec (search the archives) are an improvement.The PDB is a great time saver but not essential. I buildt my own enclosure from 80/20 aluminum extrusions and Lexan panels. It is somewhat cheaper than the Tormach enclosure which was not even available when I built mine but doesn't look as professional. If you are using small cutters you may want to consider ER11 TTS holders which are rumoured to be coming soon from Tormach. I wouldn't bother with the Tormach drill chucks -- using ER16 holders is cheaper, more secure and lower runout. It was expensive but I love my Kurt 4-inch vise. The 6-inch Kurt is available for less but 66 pounds or so is too much for me to comfortably lift onto the mill table.

[dleute]

I was already planning on buying bits, collets and toolholders at the same time unless I was ready to retire a bit. I was just researching why I would want er16 over er20, and it seems like the primary thing is minimum and maximum tool sizes. I think that will be fine for me because most work *is* small, and a lot of the bits will be shared from one project to the next. I'll probably buy some of each holder. I'm torn on the power draw bar just because of cost, ugh. I'm definitely getting the fogbuster (maybe with smart cool, maybe not, more likely not) and jog shuttle. Fly cutter is probably getting use on every single project. The enclosure is a no go due to cost. The other thing I don't know is if they pre-install the things you order. If they can/do pre-install the power draw bar, that I will probably order. I looked at the installation instructions and got intimidated. And it said it might need to be "off the wall" to install, which is not possible.

FYI: they contacted me on my order and suggested I switch to the DVD only path pilot install. They don't like selling the card to someone without a tormach serial. I think they would have if I insisted, but honestly it's getting the software installed that I'm worried about. Not the card. Hopefully it will work and I'll just get the card later. My hardware is very far from their recommended hardware, but if it will just let me install from the DVD, I can make linux do what I want.

The LMS 3501/3502 is on my list to consider. It's the support and ecosystem that pulled me toward taig and tormach. I couldn't find many reviews of the 3501. Everyone loves their taig. Most people enjoy the process of upgrading it. I don't want to deal with that. And tormach appears to be the apple of cnc machines.

I have what I think is a pretty decent budget for the extras. Most of them are identified specifically, like the specific vises (gonna stick with tormach CNC vises for now), clamp kits, tooling plates (saunders machine works), some soft jaw blanks, etc.

The first thing I did to save money was to throw out all the "kits" they want to sell and put only the stuff I need in my cart. I really don't need 129 jobber drills. I do like the specialized plastic and aluminum bits. And once I get to steel I'll like those bits. The TTS starter set has all kinds of things I don't want or need. Rather spend that money on better accessories.

I'm thinking about dropping the tooling plate in favor of two 5" clamps with workstops in the short term (get the tooling plate later). It seems like the CNC vises and table clamping would be plenty until I need to use the full work envelope. I haven't had any issue work holding a couple of parts conceptually. It's when I get to large numbers of small parts that it gets hard. But that can wait for a bit.

Thanks for all the advice!

--Derrek

[kstrauss]

Installing from the DVD is trivial -- just boot from it, answer a few questions and you're done in less than 5 minutes. However, without the card PCI card PP won't start plus there is nothing to connect your Tormach to.

In my experience nothing -- PDB, oiler, etc -- comes installed. Installing the PDB is not difficult except for threading the wires down the mill column. If you don't have access to the back of your machine you'll have to find a place to mount the lubricator and other PDB components.

Inserts for things like the fly cutter are much cheaper on eBay than from Tormach although it is more convenient to just order from Tormach.

I didn't order any of the kits either and I think that that was the right decision. Plan what you need and initially order only what is necessary. You can order other general purpose things later from Tormach or many other places for less money.

I use mostly smaller bits and drills and find that the ER16 seem a more "in scale" size. It is easier to direct coolant onto a 1/16-endmill in a smaller holder which is why I wish that ER11 TTS holders were available.

[dleute]

The primary system I am attempting to use is not traditional. I'm using an intel mac pro which can run linux. But installing linux on this particular mac can be tricky. Usually I can modify the boot disc to do it (if it doesn't just work). My understanding is this path pilot allows you to use it on a non-connected system to run tests. I don't know if they created a different version. In this case, if I can get it to install form the DVD, the system should work fine.

Knowing that, I might ditch the oiler too (will look at the instructions first). Is it really just a lever to pull to oil without the automatic oiler?

I switched to mostly er16 holders and collets in my cart (still not sure about fractional vs metric, I guess whatever the bit shank is). Just a few er20 for a couple 1/2 inch shank bits (actually might not need them). Probably only buy that size if I buy a bit that needs it.

I haven't looked at collets for my smallest bit needs. Need to check on that.

--Derrek

[joshetect]

The machine comes mostly assembled, every accessory requires assembly.

what kind of accuracy are you needing?

You'll need to make sure your computer has a pci or pci-e slot free for the controller.

[kstrauss]

Non-connected startup of PP is not a problem. If you edit the startup script you can run a "simulate" version which I believe runs without the PCI card although I haven't tried that.

In theory, the metric collets will work with imperial sized cutter shanks plus cover the entire range of possible sizes. In practice, I muchly prefer to use 1/8-inch and 1/4-inch collets for cutters and the metric collets for drills. The cheap metric collets from ebay (CTC tools -- CTC Tools for example) have proven sufficiently low runout for drills and are much cheaper than the Tormach equivalent. Order two or three sets since several drills may require the same size of collet.

[kstrauss]

I forgot to add:
The manual oiler is an oil reservoir (maybe 1 litre?) plus a pump that connects to the oil manifold. Without it (or a replacement) you will not be able to oil the machine. OMITTING IT COMPLETELY IS NOT AN OPTION! I initially ordered the manual unit which came in a separate box. I later upgraded to the automatic one.

[jmosley]

I've been happy with the 770. One note though on travel... the y travel is actually 7.5" but once you subtract the width of the end mill that needs to go on the outside of the stock, and add some wiggle room for roughing/finishing and not setting off the limit switches you practically end up with a max part size in y of about 6.5 inches. Initially i was thinking of a smaller machine - but now that I have the 770 it seems just right for a range of parts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[dleute]

joshetect - I don't know what accuracy I "need" to accomplish things. Most of my projects don't need a lot of accuracy. (how accurate does a key chain need to be?), but a few do. It doesn't really matter though. In the cases where I may need extremely high accuracy, I likely just need prototypes that can be mass produced elsewhere. There should be a wide range of "good enough".

kstrauss - My assumption is if you don't select the automatic oiler (at extra cost), it comes with the manual one. Otherwise their checkout is setup very strangely. But, they also don't really let you order half systems without talking to you to make sure it's what you want. I was reading about how the automatic oiler works, and in my case it may not be a good option. I'm also getting a bit overwhelmed with stuff that needs to be installed. I may simply not order any of the extras until I understand my usage better. I'll know then if an automatic oiler, power draw bar, ATC, etc is worth the money for me.

jmosley - Y travel of 7.5/6.5 should be great for me. Honestly, the taig has a bit less than that, and would be fine too. The thing I do like is that I will have the option of a 6" rotary table. As a tombstone setup, with thin parts on 4 sides, that seriously expands mass production capabilities (2.5->3.5 times work area). I won't be buying the 4th axis initially, but it's nice to know it's there. And honestly, the ability to use 14x7.5 almost entirely already doubles the taig. I really might not need tombstones to make the quantity of parts I need.

Thanks everyone for your feedback! I'm hoping to have a 770 in the near future.

[kstrauss]

On the current order page you must select an oiler. It is either $40 for the manual oiler or $294 ($254 more than the manual one) for the automatic oiler.

[C*H*U*D]

...I was just researching why I would want er16 over er20, and it seems like the primary thing is minimum and maximum tool sizes.

...It is easier to direct coolant onto a 1/16-endmill in a smaller holder which is why I wish that ER11 TTS holders were available.

Getting coolant in and chips out is my primary reason for going with ER16 holders now. An ER20 nut almost completely covers the parts I make, so I too am eagerly awaiting the ER11 holders before I order more.

[kstrauss]

I just noticed 37180 - ER11M x M8 Modular Collet. It isn't exactly what I want and plus, at $39.50 + $28.38 for the TTS part, it is rather expensive. I wonder how the runout is.

[TurboStep]

I wonder how the runout is.

I think I can guess... but I'm always prepared to be surprised...
Step

[C*H*U*D]

I just noticed 37180 - ER11M x M8 Modular Collet. It isn't exactly what I want and plus, at $39.50 + $28.38 for the TTS part, it is rather expensive. I wonder how the runout is.

When I emailed Tormach, asking for ER11 tool holders, they pointed me to that option too. Price is a deal killer for me and I'm not a fan of the modular collet when a one piece holder seems like a better solution for what I need to do.

C'mon Tormach, we're waiting!! :-)