Tormach 1100 vs. Haas VF3

[Steelmesh]

If we wanted to compare these machines disregarding: 1) Work Envelope, 2) Horsepower

What can the Haas do that the Tormach can't for cutting non-ferrous and ferrous metals? Assume the Tormach has coolant and toolchanger too.

I am currently pushing for a Tormach (via edsfund.org grant) for our shared shop, because the donated Haas is too expensive and risky for new people to operate, people who want to learn CNC milling and create their own projects.

Arguments I run into constantly:
1) The Tormach is not as accurate as the Haas to do molds; which maybe 0.01% of people want to use the machine for, we're not making aerospace parts either. Besides, the molds would be prototypes!
2) People can just get trained; however, no one has been trained for the few years it's been operational. There is talk of 20+ hrs of training by volunteers for each person, which is unreasonable to ask volunteers to do and 20 hrs may not be enough
3) Current operators can just cut your project for you; again, this is unreasonable to ask volunteers to do, in addition, it could take you weeks or months to get your CNC project done if you ask someone else

I am suggesting a hobby type CNC so people can get 3-6 hrs of training and set them loose on the Tormach; Learn by Doing. If they crash it, we'll fix it (how bad could it be?). If they crash the Haas, we could almost cover the investment of this Tormach.

Thanks for the insight!

Similar Threads:

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[SCzEngrgGroup]

The major differences will be:

1) Work envelope - The Haas has nearly twice the travels in every axis
2) Speed - The Haas has an 8000 RPM spindle, vs 5000 RPM for the Tormach. Rapids on the Hass are nearly 10X faster (1000IPM vs 110IPM). The Haas has 20X as much spindle power. That all means most jobs on the Haas will take FAR less time.
3) Accuracy - The Haas has closed-loop servo control with linear scales, thermal compensation, etc. etc. It is also FAR more rigid. It will produce parts to much tighter tolerance. On the order of +/-0.0002" vs +/-0.001".
4) Cost - The Haas costs almost 10X what a Tormach does (and requires 3-phase power).

As long as you don't require extreme precision (and few jobs do...), and you're not in a hurry, the Tormach will probably do almost anything you want it to.

Regards,
Ray L.

[WOTDesigns]

A VF3 is the wrong machine to compare anyways. A TM series would be MUCH better comparison and cost LESS than 3x a Tormach NOT 10x. Comparing to a VF3 is like comparing a Ford Fiesta to a DODGE Viper. They both get from A-B but they aren't even the same type of machine or designed for the same purpose.

Owning a HAAS and Tormach I have to say I'm quite perplexed by several of your arguments. The HAAS doesn't take any more time to learn than a Tormach. What are you planning on teaching in 3-5 hours? You will only get through how to turn it on, set up a vise, wipe down the table and turn it off. I've trained people on Mach3 on custom machines and Tormach,and now on HAAS. I feel MUCH safer letting them "play" on the Tormach just because I NEED MY HAAS working. BUT I personally feel much safer running the HAAS. I can stop the damn thing RIGHT NOW WHERE IT IS with one button. The Tormach will just go ahead and finish crashing after a pause command THEN feed hold.

For learning a VF3 is completely ridiculous. It's a production machine. A used TM is only 20K, and a new TM2P (same 40" X as VF3) is only 37K. A HAAS with STAND and PDB (HAAS comes with stand and PDB) is over $12K

Brian
WOT Designs

[WOTDesigns]

I wish I had an hour r to finish my thoughts on this... Sorry if that sounded curt.

There is nothing a person can do on any cnc mill with 3-5 hours of training other than jog it around like it was a manual mill in which case a manual mill would be far less costly. It takes me 5 hours to walk someone through just the fundamentals of programming a part. Explaining how the axis woes, which direction they are going in, what a datum is, why it exists why to put it where, which direction a tool must turn in, why 2 flute for one material and 6 for another, how to ballpark surface speed, conventional vs climb, roughing vs finishing, facing, contouring, how to get into a pocket, why you can't go 1" Deep 0."45 wide on a 1/2" em in steel...now... We can START programming IF THE part was already drawn for them.

Vise set up, work set up, touching off, setting tool offsets... Jesus. 20 hours of training is a crash course in operation for pre-programmed parts and would cover set up and running, adjusting, changing tools...

You are a far braver man than I.

Brian
WOT Designs

[underthetire]

Standard Haas does not have scales, and no, they are not that accurate, better than a tormach sure, but they are still low end machines. Either will require the same amount of training, same set up just different menus. If you want something that takes little training, buy a 3d printer. Mills are mills, and have close to the same amount of danger to operators.

[Steve Seebold]

If we wanted to compare these machines disregarding: 1) Work Envelope, 2) Horsepower

What can the Haas do that the Tormach can't for cutting non-ferrous and ferrous metals? Assume the Tormach has coolant and toolchanger too.

I am currently pushing for a Tormach (via edsfund.org grant) for our shared shop, because the donated Haas is too expensive and risky for new people to operate, people who want to learn CNC milling and create their own projects.

Arguments I run into constantly:
1) The Tormach is not as accurate as the Haas to do molds; which maybe 0.01% of people want to use the machine for, we're not making aerospace parts either. Besides, the molds would be prototypes!
2) People can just get trained; however, no one has been trained for the few years it's been operational. There is talk of 20+ hrs of training by volunteers for each person, which is unreasonable to ask volunteers to do and 20 hrs may not be enough
3) Current operators can just cut your project for you; again, this is unreasonable to ask volunteers to do, in addition, it could take you weeks or months to get your CNC project done if you ask someone else

I am suggesting a hobby type CNC so people can get 3-6 hrs of training and set them loose on the Tormach; Learn by Doing. If they crash it, we'll fix it (how bad could it be?). If they crash the Haas, we could almost cover the investment of this Tormach.

Thanks for the insight!

To start with, depending on what tool changer your Haas has, and the spindle RPM, your Haas can cost anywhere from $50,000 to about $75,000 for a new one, while a Torcmach with PDB and ATC will be around $20,000. The Torch has a work envelope of 18 X 9.5 X 16.25 XYZ respectively. The Haas VF3 has 40 X 20 X 20. The Haas has 20 HP, the Torch has 1.5.

I do aerospace work on my PCNC 1100. I just have to bid it like I'm running it on a Haas. My shop rate is $75.00 per hour, and I feel pretty good if I can make $30.00. I work in my garage, so the only overhead I have is power.

The Haas will rigid tap, the Tormach won't. The Haas will rapid up to 1,000 IPM, the Tormach rapids at a rip snortin' 110 IPM. With a Haas, you can bury a 3/4 inch end mill full width and an inch deep, but if you try that with a Tormach, I doubt your cutter will go more than 3 turns before stalling the spindle.

I love my Tormach. For what I bought it for, I haven't found anything it won't do. I can do 4th axis, I can do surface machining, and I can cut threads with it. It's just gonna take a little longer. AND, I can hold +/-.001 with it ALL DAY LONG.

[tmarks11]

Standard Haas does not have scales

Learn something new everyday. Only VF6 and above can be purchased with linear scales. And on those machines it is an option, not a standard feature. Interesting. I had always assumed that even their low end machines used linear scales instead of rotary encoders for closed loop feedback, but that is not the case.

[shred]

FWIW, the head of TechShop once told me they have Tormachs because they move slowly enough that a user has a chance to slap the E-Stop before something really bad happens.

[tmarks11]

FWIW, the head of TechShop once told me they have Tormachs because they move slowly enough that a user has a chance to slap the E-Stop before something really bad happens.

Plus, if you wipe out a spindle on the Tormach from a bad crash, a new one will only cost $600. On the VF3, Haas will charge you $4500.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Learn something new everyday. Only VF6 and above can be purchased with linear scales. And on those machines it is an option, not a standard feature. Interesting. I had always assumed that even their low end machines used linear scales instead of rotary encoders for closed loop feedback, but that is not the case.

Surprising, given that good linear scales are not terribly expensive any more. I bet they do use screw-mapping, to largely eliminate lead error, which is probably the dominant source of position error.

Regards,
Ray L.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

FWIW, the head of TechShop once told me they have Tormachs because they move slowly enough that a user has a chance to slap the E-Stop before something really bad happens.

Even after all the years I've been doing this, 1000 IPM would scare me. I have my machines tuned down to "only" 350 IPM, even though they're capable of 500 IPM.

Regards,
Ray L.

[Steelmesh]

In regards to the comments about 3-6 hrs of training:
I am looking at the best practices of TechShop. There is a 2.0 hr of "Concepts of CNC" course and then a 3.0 hr Tormach class that you have to pass, after this, schedule a time and you can do whatever you want with the mill. So if you're smart enough, have done 3D printing, have used a manual mill, you could theoretically get on a TechShop Tormach in 5 hrs.

Will a person be making good parts after 5.0 hrs? Probably not, but this person will be able to gain "seat time" on their own time without having to pay for college classes or take up volunteer time.

I had no 3D printing or g-code experience, but I needed to get parts made; so I got checked out on the open source 3D printer in about 20 minutes, then 20 hours later after experimenting with 3 different slicers with all types of settings, I was able to make something and finish my project. I was motivated to learn it and didn't care how long it would take. I feel there are other makers willing to learn on their own, but they just need access to an actual machine to actually get anywhere.

[Steelmesh]

Plus, if you wipe out a spindle on the Tormach from a bad crash, a new one will only cost $600. On the VF3, Haas will charge you $4500.

I totally see your point and trying to communicate this to the group.


What is better aligned with the mission of this DIY maker space?

1) Don't get a more affordable CNC mill; teach no one CNC milling, never crash the Haas

or

2) Get an affordable CNC mill; teach 10 people CNC milling on this mill every year, the Haas never gets crashed, if the Tormach does, who cares fix it.

[cordvision]

I would say go with a Tormach. I'm self thought, and made many mistakes in the process. I had to run for the E stop button more than once, and because of the Tormach's slow speeds, I never had a bad crash. Also, in the event that something does crash, it will most likely cheaper and easier to repair it. Even crashing a tool holder on a larger machine can get pricy. Also, if you have a really powerful machine, it literally has the power to self destruct in an instance, the damage a tormach can do to itself is fairly minimal, even in a worst case scenario.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[underthetire]

1000 ipm rapids seems quite slow to me now. Heck, I think base model Moris are 1500 and get there within 1/4 turn of the ballscrew.
Haas can position fine with just encoders, a couple tenths is no big deal, accuracy of the machines is dictated by a lot of other variables, squareness being a major one, and this is where Haas falls short. Good machines, just not super accurate.

[RussMachine]

too expensive and risky for new people to operate, people who want to learn CNC milling and create their own projects

Well, you've answered your own question.
For TRAINING rookies on a CNC, the TORMACH is much safer and cheaper.
A full-sized, full horsepower VF3 can do nasty things to untrained novices.
For TRAINING purposes, definitely go with the TORMACH.

[mountaindew]

As others have mentioned cost is huge and cost of damage can add up on precision powerful tools
Also all the support tools for measurement and fixture systems would need to be on order higher quality to even check your results.
I would think a tormach machine would be great with all its options from 4th axis to digital probes, scanners and even a injection molder.
All these things add some utility to a diverse shop.
On the part about training. I have a little over a year of experience and found my cam skills needed the most work to get confident results
Working with the mill and mach controller was straight forward for the most part and with good cam g-code down right easy to make cool stuff.
On the other hand things like stock preparation and some fixture setups take a great deal of manual input and any error can cause tool or material damage of some sort.
Imho these are fun systems to use and operate. It does take some time to learn, still nothing that hard imho
md

[Hirudin]

That's a tough call. The whole thing sounds like a bad idea to me.

Can I ask for more detail? How closely would the users be supervised? How would a person buy time on a machine? (hourly, daily, unlimited with a subscription, etc.)

If I HAD to make a choice of what machine I'd rather have people "play with" without supervision (or very little supervision), I would choose the Haas. If I remember correctly, Haases can be set up so the spindle will not run while the door is open. That would be the deciding factor for me; a machine which would allow someone to literally stick their hand into a running spindle (through stupidity, ignorance, brazenness, carelessness, or anything else) is a machine I would not allow a novice to use. There's no way in hell I'd let someone run my Novakon unless I was either watching closely or was certain that they knew what they were doing. I also wouldn't let anyone use my Brother, but at least if I ever did, I wouldn't be as worried about having to clean up blood spatter. In this country, it's one thing to hurt yourself on your own machine, it's another thing when someone else gets hurt on YOUR machine. Think a Haas costs a lot to fix, think about what it's going to cost when someone needs their hand sewn back together (you might be paying their doctor AND their lawyer).

Maybe I'm missing the point entirely here... Maybe I'm a wet blanket. I wouldn't lend a stranger my car, my gun, or my CNC machine.

[bhurts]

If this is for a school I would think the Hass is a better choice for learning about real world shop tools. I also think it is way to expensive to just run with. I say get 2 or 3 taig or sherline mills. Make people complete a set curriculum of parts without crashes using there own coding and setup before allowing them to run the hass. There is also the option of a hass simulator to prove programs and setup as well.

Ben

[Hirudin]

Sorry, I forgot what the question was... What can a Haas do that a Tormach can't?

As WOTDesigns mentioned, the Haas would have a feed hold button that is actually useful. The E-stop button is OK for emergencies, but the feed hold function on Mach3 is useless. I was cutting the side of a 16" long piece of stock on my Novakon once, hit the feed hold button on my VistaCNC pendant, and watched the machine continue to cut for another 12 inches (or so) before stopping. ... OK, I guess that doesn't make it useless, but it's not as good as the Haas likely is. If the feed-hold on Haas machines is anything like my Brother, which I'd be willing to bet, it'll stop the machine in a fraction of a second. Then you can open the door, poke around, whatever, and then hit cycle start again and it'll continue as if nothing happened. It's very convenient!

Rigid tapping is an obvious one. Again, I'm ignorant on how you're envisioning the machines being used, but I bet people are going to want some tapped holes in their parts. There are, obviously, ways to get holes tapped using a Tormach, but they are kinda only possible with experience/training. I remember the first time I used a thread mill - it was a 6-32 on my TAIG. The very first hole seemed to work without a hitch. Second hole: *snap*! Bye-bye $60 tool.

I would think the enclosure would be a boon to the inexperienced user. Aluminum chips aren't too bad, but I understand those steel chips that oxidize to that pretty blue color are pretty damn hot. The enclosure will also keep most of the coolant inside the machine and off the floor/users. And the safety factor with regard to eyes goes without saying. Of course, Tormach sells a full enclosure too. Does the Tormach enclosure have the spindle lockout function like I mentioned in my last post?

Servos - If the servos lose position I imagine the machine will stop itself, with the Tormach it'll just continue as if nothing happened. An inexperienced user might not notice when the Tormach has missed some steps and would let the program complete, potentially ruining their part and wasting a lot of time. The Haas would probably error out. In addition to that, the Haas stopping itself when a user tries to take a cut that's too aggressive would help alert the staff of the shop that someone isn't using the machine correctly - at the very least you could check the error-logs every week or whatever.

It sounds like you already have a VF3. Do untrained people use it currently, what problems are you experiencing with that?