Invitation To Start An Open Source Path Pilot Group

[CNC-Dude]

I see some enthusiasm here in the Forum with regards to this project and I feel confident it is something we can get started. I have contacted Tormach and explained them my vision. I will let you guys know whether my idea represents a breach or not. I don't think it is, but I am halfway in reading the GPL V2 license so there might be a definitive clause I am missing.

Some of you guys have expressed an interest in playing with the code (Wizards, drivers, UI customization, etc). I am positive this is something we can eventually reach.

My first step, however, is to be able to take pretty much any viable computer and install the SW, install a MESA card and then run my PCNC1100 as I would with the Tormach TMC. It is still possible that there are some hardware dependencies which will render this endeavor close to fruitless. And although I am positive any hiccup can be overcome, that is precisely the point. We need to be able to get PP to run on most computers before we can start writing code and customizing the environment.

It is possible that this will just work and there will be little effort on this front. But let's not forget there is a trillion computer configurations out there and some of them will be a pain to work with. This is precisely why Tormach only wants to support one variant. Because they are not in the PC business. They are in the CNC machine business and dealing with mother board, CPU, chipsets, Hard Disks, BIOS' and all those idiosyncrasies has nothing to do with CNC.

Again, we can let the community take care of all of those issues and let Tormach do what they do best: create awesome CNC pieces of equipment!

[samco]

There is a interface created by chris morley called Gscreen. GTK widget editor GLADE and python to create user screens.

LinuxCNC Documentation Wiki: Gscreen
Gscreen

huge old thread about its development..
http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/englis...n?limitstart=0

There are also a ton of wizards people have wrote.. IE
http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/englis...0-lathe-macros
http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/englis...nes-and-ngcgui

You would want to run 2.7 for the new tp. It is in its final stages of being the next release.

sam

[Hirudin]

Ok, call Tormach yourself and request a copy then let us know how that goes.

Na

Your insolence is annoying.

[BIRDTOOL]

I would need to reinvent the wheel and find all the configuration parameters for the PCNC1100

I downloaded 2.7 last night and ran the live version, there were setup templates listed for the Tormach pcnc machines.

I think in the end PP was the "cheapest" option for Tormach to do, take the O/S Linuxcnc, fix the TP to give back to the community, add a front end with some bells and your done. i think they noted on the site there was no future with Mach( maybe phrased differently). No sw updates, lack of hw supply, ect. They could of tried to source another "finished" control package(Eding or whatever), but that would cost them more and/or cost their customers more)

[Gerry Sweetland]

If Path Pilot is just LinuxCNC with a different interface, then why don't you just start with LinuxCNC and build your own version?? The Path Pilot trajectory planner is already in LinuxCNC.

+1
Gerry

[treyjugson]

Na

Your insolence is annoying.

I didn't think you'd have a constructive response, keep your insults to yourself in future.

[daniellyall]

this is a good idea will start with LinuxCNC 2.7 build on that call what op wonts.

tormach has patined the name of the program pathpilot there version of linux 2.7 only, they pad for 2.7 to be done they have a right to it in there name so LinuxCNC is still open source`s.

they say they will not sale and not support if someone added it to a different machines a Open Source pathpilot forum will be needed.

setting up for a tormach machine wont be hard there only so many different set ups one person with all the balls and wiseal could do it it will only be this and that not needed.

a forum for the different flavors of the same thing will better here as there will be less people not willing to help.

so that's 3 need at this time

pathpilot tormach version

pathpilot not supported by tormach

op`s version of (pathpilot) linucCNC 2.7 with different name

tormach would of already contacted op and cnczone if they did not like this being done.

if you dont like this idea contact tormach and see if they give a ****. all in all it will make linuxCNC better and tormach version better

[daniellyall]

cnc dude you will always get people saying what ever you do is wrong if tormach is happy with your idea just block the non constructive people. (as bart says bite me)

I use M3 and M4 I am going to try new linuxCNC see whats better on my big router with a computer that has a hard time with M3 and one that run`s like a dream.

so go hard a may the cnc gods be with you

[tmarks11]

Intriguing... I thought I heard only people with one of the latest TMC's could acquire the upgrade. Will check directly with them and straighten this misconception of mine.

Daniel Rogge looked kind of unsure when he answered this question, and almost seemed to contradict himself, so maybe what he said was not the official line.

What I got out of it:
1. They will only sell the PP software to verified Tormach machine owners.
2. They will sell software to Tormach machine owners with homebrew computers, but will provide absolutely no after-sales support. Since they are charging $10, that isn't really "selling" in my book, more like giving away...
3. You can buy a 5i25/6i25 direct from Mesa, and the PP will download the right pin settings into it on startup.

I am not sure why you want a "Open Source" group for a commercial splinter of an Open Source project. Just join the LinuxCNC group.

The PP software as I understand it by the requirements of the LGPL license is not "Open Source". LGPL allows incorporation of open-source libraries into commerical proprietary code, and companies are not required to release source code for the proprietary components. Tormach is required to release the source code for any portions of the code that are modified/adapted from the open source code, and has met that obligation by releasing the trajectory planner improvements source code. Don't expect to see source code for the proprietary portions like the conversational screens, ATC, probing screens, etc.

The "Open Source" elements of PP will be in LinuxCNC releases; nowhere else.

[MichaelHenry]

If Path Pilot is just LinuxCNC with a different interface, then why don't you just start with LinuxCNC and build your own version?? The Path Pilot trajectory planner is already in LinuxCNC.

That got a chuckle out of me.

[Methylethylketo]

Daniel Rogge looked kind of unsure when he answered this question, and almost seemed to contradict himself, so maybe what he said was not the official line.
The PP software as I understand it by the requirements of the LGPL license is not "Open Source". LGPL allows incorporation of open-source libraries into commerical proprietary code, and companies are not required to release source code for the proprietary components. Tormach is required to release the source code for any portions of the code that are modified/adapted from the open source code, and has met that obligation by releasing the trajectory planner improvements source code. Don't expect to see source code for the proprietary portions like the conversational screens, ATC, probing screens, etc..

The nice part of LinuxCNC is that most of the screens and stuff like the ATC are just python scripts and customized menus you can edit with the appropriate gnu software tools. 95% of what most people are going to want to dink with are things that are plain text, or near enough to not require extensive reverse engineering to uncover. Adding a 3 axis homing button, support for the vista pendants, more options in the conversational wizard, stuff like that.

Without clear delineation between the GPL/LGPL code sections and the proprietary config and UI changes Tormach did, it'll be hard to really determine what we can freely distribute as 3rd party addins, what we can distribute as entire distributions of the software, and what we'd be required to offer as an installable set of text file difs to modify tormach owned stuff that we can't redistribute in whole form.

[wtopace]

As far as "legal gray area", Tormach is linking and extending a GPL (and some LGPL) open source application. This means their derivative works also need to be open source. They have attorneys and they know the rules. If anything, Tormach could get into heated water if they don't release their code.

Regardless, Tormach said they have every intention of contributing to the open source community so cool your jets, nobody here is trying to break any laws and you just look rediculous. I'm sure they are just working with LinuxCNC to work out merge rights and code reviews.

I own a PCNC1100 myself and I love it. Tormach has been super helpful anytime I have needed them, I'm sure everyone else here agrees. NOBODY here is trying to rip off or steal from Tormach, get over yourself please, thanks.

[tmarks11]

Without clear delineation between the GPL/LGPL code sections and the proprietary config and UI changes Tormach did, it'll be hard to really determine what we can freely distribute as 3rd party addins, what we can distribute as entire distributions of the software, and what we'd be required to offer as an installable set of text file difs to modify tormach owned stuff that we can't redistribute in whole form.

You can solve that whole problem by starting with LinuxCNC 2.70, and writing your own "easily editable" python scripts for ATC, etc, and then spread it around the open source community. No gray areas there.

This means their derivative works also need to be open source. They have attorneys and they know the rules. If anything, Tormach could get into heated water if they don't release their code.

The LGPL allows linking open source libraries and compiling with proprietary code, and not releasing the proprietary code. Tormach has been very above board, including hosting a "summit" of some of the leaders of the LinuxCNC community to discuss development and licensing requirements. I think we have already seen the policy: PP will be offered to Tormach customers as proprietary software, any modifications/improvements to the LinuxCNC core components will be released to the linuxCNC community and available to everyone as a free download as part of normal LinuxCNC releases.

You want an ATC screen, conversational screens, probing, etc, feel free to start with released LinuxCNC code and build from there.

Someone should ban...

Just use the REPORT button at the bottom of the post, than hit the IGNORE user feature, and don't worry about it. Anything more just gets useful threads (like this one) locked.

[Methylethylketo]

You can solve that whole problem by starting with LinuxCNC 2.70, and writing your own "easily editable" python scripts for ATC, etc, and then spread it around the open source community. No gray areas there.

No grey areas, but also a stupidly wasteful duplication of effort. If someone modifies the conversational screen and G-code generation script to include a z-height hold down for chaining different conversational sections together, how should he share it with others who are interested in it? Depending on how that code is licensed will determine if it ends up being an issue or not.


So if someone wants to add a Z retract setting to the pocketing conversational screen because of the way he clamps his parts, he should start with LinuxCNC and recreate all the PP stuff?

[treyjugson]

You can solve that whole problem by starting with LinuxCNC 2.70, and writing your own "easily editable" python scripts for ATC, etc, and then spread it around the open source community. No gray areas there.


The LGPL allows linking open source libraries and compiling with proprietary code, and not releasing the proprietary code. Tormach has been very above board, including hosting a "summit" of some of the leaders of the LinuxCNC community to discuss development and licensing requirements. I think we have already seen the policy: PP will be offered to Tormach customers as proprietary software, any modifications/improvements to the LinuxCNC core components will be released to the linuxCNC community and available to everyone as a free download as part of normal LinuxCNC releases.

You want an ATC screen, conversational screens, probing, etc, feel free to start with released LinuxCNC code and build from there.


Just use the REPORT button at the bottom of the post, than hit the IGNORE user feature, and don't worry about it. Anything more just gets useful threads (like this one) locked.

+1, +1, +1, +1

If Path Pilot is just LinuxCNC with a different interface, then why don't you just start with LinuxCNC and build your own version?? The Path Pilot trajectory planner is already in LinuxCNC.

+1

[pete from TN]

Well for me I am for sure open to the idea of trying to create something like you are talking about. I have been running LinuxCNC for some time now on my Vertical Machining center and it has been dead reliable and works wonderfully. I would love to be able to enjoy some of the cosmetic improvements made by tormach and I hope they see fit to share some or all of that in the spirit of the open source program that they worked from. The Axis control panel is certainly functional and I would say clean but I did like some of what I saw in the videos and information posted about the PP program. Honestly I could give a crap about all the legalities of who has to do what. It seems to me that linuxCNC has been worked on and continues to be worked on by so many nice folks out of the kindness of their hearts and it is the reason we have such a capable program that we enjoy today. It would be nice to see Tormach continue on this tradition above any beyond the trajectory planner. I don't fault them for using it and even for putting their own name on it but the program itself has countless hours of work given freely by far too many people to credit. A lot of the improvements stated in their white paper were already part of linuxCNC as far as I can see and whatever they did add to the program is both welcomed and appreciated.

There is a lot of things that could improve LinuxCNC and while there are a lot of nice add ons that will do much of what the PP program adds nobody has found it important enough to create something like what you are talking about and make it truly free and open source. What I mean by that is that a comprehensive package of all the add ons that make up some and more of what the PP program is bringing to the table has not happened and that is indeed unfortunate. I use the excellent Mesanet cards on my machine and they have proven both dead reliable and easy to configure especially for the simpler stuff. I would love to see Tormach share at least some of this and if people could find ways to combine the available resources already in place into a combined package that improves LinuxCNC to not only work and function to it's capabilities as far as conversational programming but also to look more up to date and polished especially in the conversational pages and probing etc it would be even more amazing that it already is. I am a big fan of open source programs and linuxCNC in particular. It really is a wonderful thing to see so many people around the world both using it and improving it. We shall see where this goes but I for one have high hopes. Peace

Pete

[kstrauss]

Thanks Pete. Very well said!

[CNC-Dude]

I am downloading LinuxCNC 2.7 as well and will install it in one of my computers.

I am also internally debating whether to get one of the TMCs with Path Pilot. Do I need it? Not really, but it seems like a good time to start learning about it, tinkering with how it works and what it has to offer, while at the same time I can compare it with LCNC2.7. It is possible that LCNC2.7 has all the stuff that we need, in which case, right there, that is our Open Source / user customizable platform.

During the webinar, however, Tormach mentioned they optimized the kernel for motion control. In other words, you can do whatever you want and motion control will always take precedence over everything else. This is definitely one of the most awesome features PP has to offer. In fact, this IS the feature that I am most interested in! I wonder if LCNC2.7 carries that aspect within its core. And if that is not the case, how easy will it be to modify the kernel? Something tells me this is one of those things that requires some serious Linux configuration/compilation background and it is not for the faint of heart.

In the upcoming days I plan on submerging myself on the LinuxCNC documentation. I admit that I jumped gun out of excitement and without knowing too much about this platform. So it is time to enlighten myself and grab a better understanding of this exciting universe ahead of us!

[samco]

I don't know if tormach tweaked anything further but right out of the box - motion in linuxcnc is real-time. (right up to the trajectory planner...) One of the reason things like feed hold and overrides are pretty instant.

sam

[rowbare]

No grey areas, but also a stupidly wasteful duplication of effort. If someone modifies the conversational screen and G-code generation script to include a z-height hold down for chaining different conversational sections together, how should he share it with others who are interested in it? Depending on how that code is licensed will determine if it ends up being an issue or not.


So if someone wants to add a Z retract setting to the pocketing conversational screen because of the way he clamps his parts, he should start with LinuxCNC and recreate all the PP stuff?

I don't think that will be necessary. I asked Daniel whether they would publish an API to allow people to add custom conversational screens that they could then contribute to the community and he said that is in the plans though it will probably be about 6 months out. I am sure some clever folks will have it mostly figured out before then.

How to contribute and distribute is an open question. Surely there will always be an informal exchange where Joe sends Bill a copy of his polygonal pocketing wizard. Beyond that, it would be nice to see some kind of central repository similar to an app store where one could upload wizards and users could rate them on a number of weighted criteria (robustness, suitability to intended task, ease of use, esthetics etc...). This could be entirely community based or could be run or sponsored by Tormach.

bob