Shuttle jog controller question

[popspipes]

Im with you on this one. Never used a HAAS pendant, but I will take the ZBot shuttle any day of the week over the 2 pendants I have tried. Biggest reason by far is being able to use it with one hand, In addition to pressing the x button (or Y or Z for that matter) a few times, I also will start very slow in whatever direction I am going to make sure its what I want before going. The fact that you can adjust the speed by turning slower or faster up to rapids is great.

I know pendants have much more functionality, but I will take the shuttle any day of the week, just my preference.

I like the shuttle better as well, I have mine stuck down to the work table (similar to velcro) so I can operate it with one hand for zeroing with a coaxial indicator etc. I dont like the axis button selector, The three taps mentioned previously is a good idea as it doesnt always change, I make it a habit to look at the axis indicators on the screen each time, a bit of a pain but necessary. I dont like the chips getting into it either but I can live with that.

I do like the way the pendant is made, and the rotary switch for axis selecting, and it is overall more "chip proof".....

[philbur]

Except that zeroing the axis with the P1A is way much more trouble than using the mouse. Here are the steps with the P1A:

1. Place the left knob on the ZERO AXIS position.
2. Place the right knob on X AXIS
3. Move the Wheel - X Axis is zeroed
4. Place the right knob on Y AXIS
5. Move the Wheel - Y Axis is zeroed
6. Place the right knob on Z AXIS
7. Move the Wheel - Z Axis is zeroed
8. Move left knob back to S/V so the pendant can be utilized as a pendant again

Here is with the mouse on MACH3:

1. Click X ZERO - X Axis is zeroed
2. Click Y ZERO - Y Axis is zeroed
3. Click Z ZERO - Z Axis is zeroed

If there had been a button to zero each axis on the P1A then I can see a value in using the pendant to zero the axis. But to go through 8 steps to do what I can easily do with 3 mouse clicks, makes my laziness gene go crazy like heck.

If I already didn't have too many projects I would gladly look into hacking the P1A and adding buttons. I don't think this is a weekend project, though.

Slight bias in presentation there, it's not as simple as 3 clicks with a mouse, you have to also move yourself to the keyboard, take hold of mouse then move the mouse to position the cursor for each axis zero before you click

Phil

[CNC-Dude]

Slight bias in presentation there, it's not as simple as 3 clicks with a mouse, you have to also move yourself to the keyboard, take hold of mouse then move the mouse to position the cursor for each axis zero before you click

Phil

Heh heh heh, you missed one vital step at the end! Going to bed to take a nap to rest after such exhausting activity ;-)

[WOTDesigns]

Not sure if the zero set can be achieved with Tormach lock down. Ray, my dislike for turn dials vs dedicated buttons has nothing to do with a lack of understanding of operational intent, I assure you. I have both. I have spend 600 hours on turn dial and far more on the shuttle and VASTLY prefer the express shuttle. It's far more intuitive for me (preference) and requires one hand, no eyes to do EVERTHING I have EVER needed the shuttle to do. I think the Vista pendant to be better than the color screen HAAS pendant as the Vista control has more switches and there fore less sub menus, but I still find the express shuttle absolutely perfect. The only argument against seems to be chips... Put a guard next to it. A finger on Z, one on x, another on your and a pinky on zero with your pointer on the dials and it is a step away from integrated into your brain. Think and done.

Brian
WOT Designs

[philbur]

Not sure if the zero set can be achieved with Tormach lock down.

Anyone know the answer to that one?

Phil

[CNC-Dude]

Well, I was playing with this two days ago, since it was mentioned that I can change the STEP button to a ZERO AXIS button on the shuttle express.

Tormach's Shuttle Express plugin is locked, so you would need to download the Shuttle's plugin from MACH3's website. This is really not a big deal.

You will need to uninstall Tormach's plugin because it will take precedence. Once it is in MACH3's plugin folder it will get enabled (you can't disable it!), so I just moved it out of the plugin folder.

Although on the plugin window you can select the Shuttle Express, you will see an image of the Shuttle Pro. Just configure the 5 buttons surrounding the jog wheel and these will be the 5 buttons on the Shuttle Express.

There are two items I didn't like:

1. I didn't see an option to zero the selected axis. There are options to ZERO X, Y, Z, A, and all, but not the selected axis. Or am I missing something?
2. With Tormach's plugin, you see which axis is selected. On MACH3's you don't. MACH3 will tell you which action took place, but the little yellow light will not correspond to the active axis.

If there is a solution to both items above I will try MACH3's driver again. Otherwise I have reverted to Tormach's in which case I can't change what the STEP button does.

[WOTDesigns]

The zero axis only zeros the current selected axis on mine. As for an indicator light I couldn't tell you. Never needed to look at the screen to figure out what axis is selected... If you want to be in X, press X. It's a lot easier than looking at the screen to see that your in Y, and THEN reaching down to press X. Honestly the only time I ever look at the screen while touching the jog shuttle is a quick glance when I zero an axis to ensure it zeroed. Habit.

Brian
WOT Designs

[popspipes]

It would be nice to have an audible sound when the axes are selected, then it wouldnt be necessary to look at the screen.

[WOTDesigns]

It would be nice to have an audible sound when the axes are selected, then it wouldnt be necessary to look at the screen.

+1

No kidding. Such a simple feature sure would make a world of difference. I just got in the habit of triple tapping the axis. Like OCD "x, x, x, move". 99% of the time it works every time a beep would be nice though. Maybe the new controller will have that feature!

Brian
WOT Designs

[CNC-Dude]

It would be nice to have an audible sound when the axes are selected, then it wouldnt be necessary to look at the screen.

Ehhh... yours doesn't beep? Mine beeps! In fact that is how I know that the plugin is accepting the button press even when the indicator on the screen is not moving to the selected axis. The axis works, BTW. What doesn't work is the little yellow dot besides the axis letter.

Darn it! You fix one thing and then you mess two other items...

Brian, which plugin are you using? I couldn't find an option to ZERO the selected axis. Maybe you have an older plugin which had that feature? The one from NewFangled Solutions website doesn't seem to have it.

[popspipes]

Ehhh... yours doesn't beep? Mine beeps! In fact that is how I know that the plugin is accepting the button press even when the indicator on the screen is not moving to the selected axis. The axis works, BTW. What doesn't work is the little yellow dot besides the axis letter.

Darn it! You fix one thing and then you mess two other items...

Brian, which plugin are you using? I couldn't find an option to ZERO the selected axis. Maybe you have an older plugin which had that feature? The one from NewFangled Solutions website doesn't seem to have it.

The sound is disabled on the tormach controller version of Mach 3

[DarrellH]

Just saw the number of comments about needing to click the Tormach shuttle X, Y, Z buttons every time there is an axis change.

At my TechShop location, the Tormach shuttle axis buttons seemed to always update correctly with a single click until recently. After using the machine after another user's particular messy job that left fluid everywhere, some of the keyboard's keys don't stopped working every time. I found that I needed to triple-taping the shuttle axis buttons every time to have a fairly high confidence level that the axis change was registered. And the spring loaded shuttle ring was not always return to dead zero, resulting in the selected axis continuing to creep even through it should have stopped.

My initial reaction was that the consumer grade parts (mechanical and/or electrical) was suffering from external gunk getting into their un-sealed controls.

Has anyone had to resort to using the double/triple clicking of the shuttle axis switches on a new or "clean" controller?

I'm asking since I wonder if the shuttle software driver or Mach3 itself may not always be responsive to changes to user inputs? Does the software always function correctly with "clean" controllers, and these input problems are just the result of a dirty work environment?

If the software itself is stable, then an argument can be made for keeping the input controls cleaner. But it the software can also be flaky, the argument to buying better sealed controls may still not solve the problems of missed axis switching and machine motion creep.

Thanks,
Darrell

[WOTDesigns]

Just saw the number of comments about needing to click the Tormach shuttle X, Y, Z buttons every time there is an axis change.

At my TechShop location, the Tormach shuttle axis buttons seemed to always update correctly with a single click until recently. After using the machine after another user's particular messy job that left fluid everywhere, some of the keyboard's keys don't stopped working every time. I found that I needed to triple-taping the shuttle axis buttons every time to have a fairly high confidence level that the axis change was registered. And the spring loaded shuttle ring was not always return to dead zero, resulting in the selected axis continuing to creep even through it should have stopped.

My initial reaction was that the consumer grade parts (mechanical and/or electrical) was suffering from external gunk getting into their un-sealed controls.

Has anyone had to resort to using the double/triple clicking of the shuttle axis switches on a new or "clean" controller?

I'm asking since I wonder if the shuttle software driver or Mach3 itself may not always be responsive to changes to user inputs? Does the software always function correctly with "clean" controllers, and these input problems are just the result of a dirty work environment?

If the software itself is stable, then an argument can be made for keeping the input controls cleaner. But it the software can also be flaky, the argument to buying better sealed controls may still not solve the problems of missed axis switching and machine motion creep.

Thanks,
Darrell

My experience was that mach doesn't read the new co/and until the current movement is FINISHED. Creeping slowly isn't a problem, but more "confident" movements mean I am selecting a new axis before the decel finally finished

[CNC-Dude]

I'm asking since I wonder if the shuttle software driver or Mach3 itself may not always be responsive to changes to user inputs? Does the software always function correctly with "clean" controllers, and these input problems are just the result of a dirty work environment?

I am not saying my controller was so clean I would dare to lick it, but it was definitely not gunky to the point of buttons sticking (which I have seen on different peripherals like the keyboard and a second shuttle). I can't tell you either that I have done scientific research on how this doesn't work as expected. At the end it's just an impression, but an impression based on a couple edge finder deaths, as well as some parts getting mulched, because the jog wheel moved my machine in the axis that I was not expecting.

Could it be that I didn't press the button but I just thought that I had? Well, it is a possibility, I will not deny it. But it has happened a couple of times already and I am usually good at doing this stuff slow and with patience. I am not producing anything, so to me this is therapy time.

WOTDesigns comment make sense. This could be a problem with us assuming the button was acknowledged when in reality MACH3 was not looking yet.

[mklotz70]

Argh! I know this is an old thread, but just when it seemed it was going to suggest a "fix", it ended. Is there another thread with more updated info about the shuttle issues?

I much prefer my shuttle over the vista because of the variable, spring loaded wheel. The pendant hangs there as my estop....although the USB based estop isn't near as good as one connected to the system directly. I've broken plenty of Haimer probe tips with both! I do have to click the axis buttons multiple times to ensure they register...that's still rather annoying. After weeks of being pretty much glitch free, it's now continuing to run on after releasing the wheel. It's definitely not a physical hang up from chips. It will hang up a different speeds and it only seems to hang up in one direction.....but it hangs up on every axis. It also will not work the first time I turn the wheel. I'll have to let it return to zero and then start again. It doesn't always start off slowly either. I'll start turning the wheel and there will be a pause before the machine starts moving.....if it moves.

Considering the "multi-tap" issue on the axis buttons and the intermittent-ness of the movement, I'm much more inclined to see this as windows or mach3 not paying attention to the input accurately enough. I really don't think it's a hardware issue with the shuttle express. My machine(Torus Pro) has been treating me great for the past few weeks.....then yesterday....windows crashed, mach3 locked up multiple times and my power draw bar had a couple of hiccups...which was weird since it's got nothing to do with win or mach3. I'm kinda thinking that the windows issue screwed something up that's affecting the usb reporting....my pendant seemed a bit glitchy too. I thought I was past all these issue! As soon as money gets better, I'll be looking at that new Acorn controller!! lol

Oh....and I've reseated all the USB connectors, wiggled wires and connectors during the issues to eliminate it being a bad cable or connection. After a computer/software glitch, I would bring it up and then do an orderly shutdown again....power cycle...then bring it back up and run it.

[LeeWay]

I like the Shuttle Express buttons. One came with the SBL 15 as ordered and I bought one off Amazon for the Pulsar when it went to Path Pilot. I like the function and operation on both machines. No sticking issues yet, but neither see any coolant. The Haas Mini Mill is more akin to the Vista I think. All button pushes except for the MPG. No indicators that I am aware of as to what mode you are in. Thee MPG is setup similarly on the Shuttle express except not spring loaded on the Haas.

What I use on my two Mach 3 machines are a wireless handheld keyboard. One has a trackball mouse. (router) I love that thing too. The ease of a keyboard and mouse in the palm of my hand. One recharge of the L ion batteries lasts a few weeks. USB recharger and it can be used while recharging tethered. On the plasma cutter, I have similar without the trackball. It has just the touch pad. Touch being the keyword there. Way to touchy. I still use a mouse at time to transfer files etc, but all machine motion is done with the wireless hand held keyboard. I like it too. All of these are simple plug and play. That is perhaps the best feature any of them could offer me.

[philbur]

The P1 and P2 Vista series pendants both have rotary switches for all axes which I think is much preferable. When you pick up the shuttle you have to be very careful that you don't accidentally press a button and when you do want to change axis you have to press several times to be sure the change has registered.. With a rotary switch you can see what axis is selected and there is no risk of accidentally selecting another axis.

Phil

[shred]

I had similar random shuttle issues with Mach on my Tormach. They went away when I switched to Path Pilot although that involved a new controller as well.

I got into such a habit of double-tapping the axis buttons I still do that even though there's no need now.

[mklotz70]

Thanks Lee. This one doesn't see any coolant either. I took it apart yesterday to make sure it was clean inside and it was. If you're running Path Pilot now, I doubt you'll ever see the same issue I was having. I'd love to switch to the Acorn, but it's looking like PP is a lot cheaper at this time and has the issues pretty well ironed out now. The Acorn is fairly cheap.....but I'd need the Pro software which would add another $500. Probably about $800-1000 all to convert with it. The $250ish with PP is looking really good and it gets me away from windows and mach3. I was looking at the Masso, but it's not mature enough and may never be.....at least not to the level the Acorn is....and it's about the same money.

So......after a couple more hours this morning of troubleshooting......here's an abbreviated version of what I did. It was hanging up in both directions. I installed the newest plugin for the shuttle....didn't help. While messing with it, it came up with a "triggered error" and shut mach3 down. I was thinking it might be a usb issue.....so I unplugged the usb stuff I didn't need connected after doing an orderly shutdown.....which means that I made sure it was up and running with no errors.....then shut it down. I powered it up with the usb cables disconnected. Once win was up and running, I plugged the shuttle back into the same port it was pulled from. Worked perfect.....for about 8min....then got really glitchy and after a couple more minutes.....error triggered. Shutdown, pulled usb cable, power up, good, shut down, powered up. This time, I plugged the usb cable into the other port....checked the computer and it said new device found, installing drivers. Shuttle worked perfectly! I can watch the status line at the bottom of the Program Run screen and see that it takes the axis change button pushes every time without issue. The movement/jogging issues gone. After about 10 min of "testing".....I plugged the Vista pendant in.....checked the computer and saw the same thing.....new device, installing drivers. I spent at least a half hour trying to get it to glitch again and it would not. I spent a good bit of time playing with the settings on the vista config to better understand it and get it set so that it wasn't such a pain to use. I've got it set much better now, but I still much prefer the "in-close, slow speed control" with the jog wheel on the shuttle. I couldn't find a setting on the vista that would let me sneak up on an edge. The challenge was that if I set it so that I could, any bump of the wheel would move it....potentially too far...which is how I end up breaking Haimer tips. I probably just don't have a good feel for the vista.....and maybe if mine were mounted more securely, it would be easier/better.....but I still like the feel/control on the shuttle better at this point. Since I have the vista set better now, I'll see if I can use it more to get acclimated to it. I think the biggest issue for me is that I like to have the step setting at .0001". To sneak up on the edge with the vista, it's better if it's at .001" and then gets switched down once close.....I find it quite a bother to have to change that setting......so I end up spinning the wheel a 100 times if I stopped to far away during the velocity move.

Something I found weird....I couldn't find a setting in mach to determine the max job speed for the shuttle. If I go on the vista pendant, there's a setting for the percentage of 'C'....the speed for constant speed movement. This setting changes the top end of the shuttle's job speed. I'm guessing there's a setting for that in mach somewhere, but I couldn't find it. Anyway.....

For the moment.....it's been idling for over about 2 hours on the last boot and it hasn't had any hiccups. Fingers crossed it stays that way. Yesterday afternoon and first thing this morning.....letting it sit for 10-20 min would result in a "error triggered" warning and a shutdown. Time to see if I can get back to making parts.

[SCzEngrgGroup]

Mike,

There IS no setting for maximum jog speed. The shuttles uses the settings in the Tab-key "flyout" dialog. Mach3 provides no other way to do it.

Regards,
Ray L.