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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Turner View Post
    I'm also looking at purchasing a tapping head. The Procunier sounds excellent, but I can't justify the price at this time.

    Of the remaining two, does anyone have pros/cons to report?

    I'm leaning toward the "ER-20 Tension/Compression Tapping Head" as it is an inch shorter and I'm already invested in ER-20 collets. I'll be tapping holes in stainless, cast iron and aluminum, relatively small (under 1/4", but probably no smaller than 1/16") and I'll need blind-tapping support, but I can get away with not tapping all the way to the bottom.

    Spinnetti - Which one is the "cheapie" that you purchased? And I'm curious to hear how it works out for you.

    Thanks!
    --Bryan
    The major advantage of a tapping head over a tension/compression tap holder is it is very forgiving. Properly setup, it should be near impossible to break a tap, as you can limit torque, and the head can absorb up to almost 0.200" of mis-match between spindle depth and actual tap depth. In both cases, you really want to make sure your actual spindle spindle is close to commanded speed. If you don't have a spindle tach, buy one of the cheap optical ones. A tapping head is also faster, since you don't need to stop the spindle and reverse direction. You still need to be careful doing blind holes, but the clutch will save you if you accidentally hit bottom. With a tension/compression holder, hit the bottom of a blind hole and you have a broken tap, as there is no torque limiting. The tapping head is a no-brainer to program as well - feed down at RPM / pitch to required depth, then feed back up at twice that speed. A typical hole takes only 2-3 seconds.

    I've been using the cheap Chinese ($200) tapping head (bought recently from a Zoner), and could not be happier with it. The quick-change holders on the Procunier would be really nice, but it's really not a big deal to change the tap on mine. Making your own quick-change holders would not be terribly difficult either. And length is repeatable enough, the tool length can be pre-programmed.

    Regards,
    Ray L.



  2. #22
    Member Don Clement's Avatar
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    IMO the biggest advantage of the Procunier for use with small taps is the smoothness of Procunier’s cushioned double-cone clutch. Other types of reversing tapping heads use a dog type clutch which is nowhere as smooth as Procunier cushioned double cone clutch.

    The Pro-Quik quick change tap holders are just an added advantage for me since I tap a variety of blind and thru holes in on the same part: 4-40, 10-32, ¼-20, ¼-28 and M6 . The quick change tap holders saves me quite a bit of time by easily and quickly changing just the tap using the same Procunier tapping head at a tool change in my program knowing that each tap height is in the tool table. Just as the Tormach’s PDB saves me time and not having the hassle of using a wrench to change tools , Procunier’s Pro-Quik system saves me time and not having the hassle of using wrenches to change a tap. Pro-Quik is Procunier's PDB.

    Don



  3. #23
    Registered fizzissist's Avatar
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    I've tapped hundreds of blind 0-80 holes in 304SS with a Tapmatic. The Procunier is also an excellent tool. Used and maintained properly they're both great tools.



  4. #24
    Member Don Clement's Avatar
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    I invested in a tapping head before getting into CNC. Now that I use CNC, I am wondering if thread milling might replace some of the small hole threading I’ve been doing with a tapping head. I have thread milled larger holes (and external threads) with an insert TM tool. Anybody had success with thread milling smaller holes i.e. 4-40,2-56 ?

    Don



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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Clement View Post
    I invested in a tapping head before getting into CNC. Now that I use CNC, I am wondering if thread milling might replace some of the small hole threading I’ve been doing with a tapping head. I have thread milled larger holes (and external threads) with an insert TM tool. Anybody had success with thread milling smaller holes i.e. 4-40,2-56 ?

    Don
    I've had success thread milling an m8x0.35 thread with a single point thread mill, but that's the smallest I've gone. I'd like to use multi-point inserts for it, but haven't found any holders with a diameter less than 0.35 inches which caps you at about an m10 or 7/16th thread. Being limited to single point tool, I seriously doubt there would be any time savings thread milling something like a 4-40.



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    I mill threads from M2 upwards without any (technical) problems. Thread mills are not exactly cheap and the M2 mills are definitely no exception.
    I haven't found a true multipoint M2 but mine are 2 point. This means that they're limited to the specified pitch but you still need to rotate though the entire number of turns (-1). Basically they have the disadvantages of both types!
    Thread depth may be a limiting factor - my smaller thread mills will do only 2.3D but my designs have been able to accommodate this up to now. Obviously they're great for blind holes because of the very accurate depth control.
    Step



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    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Turner View Post
    I'm also looking at purchasing a tapping head. The Procunier sounds excellent, but I can't justify the price at this time.

    Of the remaining two, does anyone have pros/cons to report?

    I'm leaning toward the "ER-20 Tension/Compression Tapping Head" as it is an inch shorter and I'm already invested in ER-20 collets. I'll be tapping holes in stainless, cast iron and aluminum, relatively small (under 1/4", but probably no smaller than 1/16") and I'll need blind-tapping support, but I can get away with not tapping all the way to the bottom.

    Spinnetti - Which one is the "cheapie" that you purchased? And I'm curious to hear how it works out for you.

    Thanks!
    --Bryan
    Bryan,

    I got the "ER-20 Tension/Compression Tapping Head"... I have it, but haven't tried it yet.



  8. #28
    Gold Member MichaelHenry's Avatar
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    The ER-20 T/C tapping head works fine for me, too, I have a Procunier but it costs a lot more vertical travel and is a little fussier to set up.



  9. #29
    Member Don Clement's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    The ER-20 T/C tapping head works fine for me, too, I have a Procunier but it costs a lot more vertical travel and is a little fussier to set up.
    I be interested in how the T/C tapping head compares to the Procunier reversing tapping head on the Tormach for blind holes with small taps e.g. 4-40. I agree the Procunier uses Z-travel. Exactly what is fussier about the Procunier? For me the Procunier is very simple to use and programming could be any simpler: feed at 100%, no dwell, retract at 2X feed. In addition I set all of the tap heights for the tool table offline using the Tormach height tool on a surface plate with 12" height gage.

    Don





  10. #30
    Gold Member MichaelHenry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Clement View Post
    I be interested in how the T/C tapping head compares to the Procunier reversing tapping head on the Tormach for blind holes with small taps e.g. 4-40. I agree the Procunier uses Z-travel. Exactly what is fussier about the Procunier? For me the Procunier is very simple to use and programming could be any simpler: feed at 100%, no dwell, retract at 2X feed. In addition I set all of the tap heights for the tool table offline using the Tormach height tool on a surface plate with 12" height gage.
    I'm usually tapping through holes so can't really comment on blind tapping. I usually use spiral point taps and believe that you use Balax form taps so that's a difference too. I do have one small repeat job that needs two 3-48 blind holes tapped in 6061-T6 and use a Morse form tap for that, which has worked very well so far.

    The Procunier is fussier for me because I haven't TTS'd mine yet nor installed a slick anti-rotation rod like the one you show in your picture. Mine also has the standard basic collets so tap changes take longer than they would on your quick-change equipped head and I find it awkward to manipulate the two wrenches to remove the collet nut from the body. I've used the Procunier quite a bit on my small Clausing manual mill and it works a treat there, so I'm a big fan of them in general.

    Mike



  11. #31
    Registered Hirudin's Avatar
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    As far as height goes the MariTool ER16 T/C head seems nice. It's ~73 mm instead of the ~110 mm of the Tormach ER20 T/C head (96 mm for their ER16 model). The MariTool model is ~$35 more though.

    http://www.maritool.com/Tool-Holders...duct_info.html

    Last edited by Hirudin; 09-01-2013 at 09:42 PM.


  12. #32
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    I have one of the old MariTool ER-20 3/4" shank T/C heads. My machine is a frankenstein series 1 upgraded to 2 then 3, but I found that the spindle reverse was not as rapid as advertised in the Tormach paper (IIRC I removed the dwell completely and still got more than expected), so blind holes would need considerable testing to verify before I'd try to tap them to full depth (for me this is rarely a problem)



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinnetti View Post
    Thanks.. I looked at thread mills. On the tormach site they only show a single thread form - just for maximum flexibility? I'll get some form of cutter and try it out, just need to research how to write the code and speeds/feeds for it.
    I haven't seen these on the Tormach site, any chance of a link? I went through the site the other day to do an order.
    Will



  14. #34
    Member Don Clement's Avatar
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    Mike,

    I agree. The Procunier was downright fussy without the TTS mod, anti-rotation rod mod, and Pro-Quik collets. I also hated fiddling with two thin wrenches when changing collets. Pro-Quik has changed that for sure and is very similar to the quick change system on Tormach’s T/C heads.

    For me using the Procunier reversing head vs. a T/C head is also a matter of speed since each of my focusers has 216 blind 4-40 tapped holes. I tap @ 1200 rpm spindle speed using a Balax form tap with a feed of 30 ipm, no dwell, retract @60ipm. Also if my series I machine was upgraded with new steppers, then spindle speed and feeds would be even faster. I might be wrong but I don’t believe the T/C head comes close to the speed of tapping blind holes having to stop the spindle, then reverse the spindle on the Tormach even with the spindle upgrade which I have.

    I also tap larger ¼-20 and M6 blind holes on my focuser. It may be practical to thread mill these larger holes. At present I use the Procunier to tap these blind holes using spiral flute cutting taps in which chips exit out the top of the hole. The Procunier 1E head cannot use forming taps as large as ¼-20 or M6 so spiral flute cutting taps are what I use. A spiral flute cutting tap is shown below mounted in the Procunier.

    Don



    Last edited by Don Clement; 09-03-2013 at 10:47 AM.


  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by wbleeker View Post
    I haven't seen these on the Tormach site, any chance of a link? I went through the site the other day to do an order.
    Will





  16. #36
    Gold Member MichaelHenry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Clement View Post
    Mike,

    I agree. The Procunier was downright fussy without the TTS mod, anti-rotation rod mod, and Pro-Quik collets. I also hated fiddling with two thin wrenches when changing collets. Pro-Quik has changed that for sure and is very similar to the quick change system on Tormach’s T/C heads.
    Those damn thin wrenches will be the death of my yet, assuming that on can die from rapped knuckles. I do like your Procunier setup, though.

    Mike



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