Torchmate not living up to expectations

[PHSS]

I've posted on here about my problems before about my torchmate, I think its a torchmate 2 or 3, my highschool bought it over the internet before I was hired but I am the one who has to make it work. I will bring you up to speed on things....since I can't find my old post.

I was having problems with the machine diving into the material with my height control unit, then when I gave up with the auto height unit, I had problems with cuts not being completed and the consumables would wear out after 5 minutes. Hypertherm replaced the torch on warranty saying it was stuck in prearc mode. Well new torch and again same old problems. The machine does not cut properly, misses cuts all the time, the height control does not react fast enough and does not work at all for the most part, I spend more time fighting, restarting programs after jumping back to lines that I can produce parts faster with my cutting torch.

The table was bought for its supposed ease of use and setup, well I have been trying to get this thing working for 4 months now, I have made more calls than I can count on all my students fingers to the tech support and still no working table. There is no way I can even begin to imagine trying to teach students to use this because of all the fighting and farting around I have had to do to make simple cuts.

I am really truly sick of it, I don't know whats wrong, I am getting tired of Torchmate blaming Hypertherm and viceversa, someone needs to figure this out. I have personally become fed up with it and have also been asked by another school district if I recommend this machine over Plasmacam, which I have used before and I had much better service and ease of use with that product over this one. Does anyone have any insight. I will now list the specifications of what I am doing and using:

Plasma table: small shop model
Auto height control: Blue screen
Plasma cutter hypertherm Powermax600
Torch: Brand new RT60M upgrade torch
Material being cut: 16 gauge sheet
Cutting Speed: 60 ipm
Voltage on height control: 150
Settings on Plasma machine: 40 amps, 70 PSI

Before you mention it I am well aware that torchmate has not tested the height control with my model of machine, unfortunately it was the machine the school bought before I came along and didn't tell me they were told not to use it, otherwise I would have returned it for a 1000 but when I found out about that it was too late. I did however get it working in the sense that if I lift the metal up the torch is adjusted up, I just think its not working well enough.

I just want the thing to work, no hassles, when I want it. And it won't do that, it will work fine some times and glitch all the time the next. This thing is just simply too temper mental to use in the school and I am finding its a collasal waste of time and money.

[jimcolt]

You say you replaced a torch because it was stuck in "prearc mode"......I've been with Hypertherm for 31 years...and there is no such term! It is possible that the plunger (moving part in the torch that allows the pilot arc to form) was stuck....

Anyway...I was looking at your cutting specs...If you are trying to cut 16 gauge at 40 amps and at 60 inches per minute....expect an ugly, drossy cut with a lot of warpage. I would suggest getting the Hypertherm FineCut consumables...then follow the cutting specifications that are listed in the Hypertherm cut charts for "optimum" cut speeds. The specs for cutting 16 gauge are: (using Fine Cut consumables) 40 Amps, 79 arc volts, 150 inches per minute. With these specs you will get a vurtually dross free cut with little or no warpage. The torch should be cutting at 1/16" off the plate...if it is too close...then increase arc voltage....and if the height control is working you will see the torch rise. Consequently if the torch is too high...reduce the arc voltage and you will see the torch drop. If you are cutting too slow...like at 60 IPM on 16 gauge....then expect the torch to dive into the plate.

My suggestion would be to eliminate the issues. Put new consumables in the torch, follow the Hypertherm specs...but disable the height control system. make sure you have a flat piece of plate and ensure (by dry running around you r part program without the plasma on) that the torch to work distance remains constant (within .020" of 1/16") around your part. Then fire the torch and run your part program at the proper speed without the Height control. If the cut looks good, as I suspect it will....then do this same drill over again, but with the height control active.

This type of troubleshooting will help you eliminate the part of the system that is causing your issues. It could very well be an issue with the plasma, or with the height control......but neither of these systems will produce a good result if you do not follow the cut specifications that the plasma systems was designed for.

I'd be happy to help you systematically trouble shoot this...as I'm sure the folks at Torchmate would. There are thousands of satisfied users with the same equipment you have!

Best regards, Jim Colt Hypertherm

[PHSS]

You say you replaced a torch because it was stuck in "prearc mode"......I've been with Hypertherm for 31 years...and there is no such term! It is possible that the plunger (moving part in the torch that allows the pilot arc to form) was stuck....

Well that is a very interesting statement considering it was what the tech support person at HYpertherm called it. You better check with those guys and set them straight.

Anyway...I was looking at your cutting specs...If you are trying to cut 16 gauge at 40 amps and at 60 inches per minute....expect an ugly, drossy cut with a lot of warpage.

My cuts are surprisingly clean with little dross, but there was major warpage and I suspect that it was due to the cutting speed. However I have been using the speed that I was told to use buy one of the Torchmate tech support fellows.

I would suggest getting the Hypertherm FineCut consumables...then follow the cutting specifications that are listed in the Hypertherm cut charts for "optimum" cut speeds. The specs for cutting 16 gauge are: (using Fine Cut consumables) 40 Amps, 79 arc volts, 150 inches per minute. With these specs you will get a vurtually dross free cut with little or no warpage.

That would be great except for when the old torch was faulty and burning through consumable I blew my budget and cannot afford to get the finecut, if Hypertherm wants to send me a complimentary set to prove to me that this is the way to go I will certainly give it a try.

The torch should be cutting at 1/16" off the plate...if it is too close...then increase arc voltage....and if the height control is working you will see the torch rise. Consequently if the torch is too high...reduce the arc voltage and you will see the torch drop.

This is where I find the most frustration, that Torchmate say use these specs, forget hypertherms chart, and of course Hypertherm say , I was told on the phone to set the gap at 1/8" no less

If you are cutting too slow...like at 60 IPM on 16 gauge....then expect the torch to dive into the plate.

That makes sense and I will try it.

My suggestion would be to eliminate the issues. Put new consumables in the torch, follow the Hypertherm specs...but disable the height control system.

I did that under the recommendation of your tech support and burned through $200 of consumables on my old torch before I was told that it was stuck in prearc and send it in for warranty. Plus the consumables in there now have less than 15 minutes of cutting time on them so I doubt that will be a problem.

ensure (by dry running around you r part program without the plasma on) that the torch to work distance remains constant (within .020" of 1/16") around your part.

Always do. well I have been looking for a distance of 1/8"

Then fire the torch and run your part program at the proper speed without the Height control. If the cut looks good, as I suspect it will....then do this same drill over again, but with the height control active.

I will try that.

My concerns are that my powermax600 is the biggest problem, don't get me wrong, I've had miller, Lincoln electric and thermal dynamics in various shops I have worked in and I prefer the hypertherm over all of them. please don't take anything I have said as anger, just frustration, I do love your product, it's the best machine ever used, but I am having trouble in general with this cnc table and it is frustrating me.

A couple questions for you Jim:
Does the ground clamp have to be on the part of can it be on the slat that supports it?

Does it have to be clean shiny metal or can it be rusty etc.

What if the machine cant cut the metal at the speeds recommended with the consumables specified for? does that mean somethings wring with the plasma power supply?

Am I royally screwed because I don't have an ok to move signal on this thing which in my limited experience is what makes other cnc tables excellent, that way no delays that can go wrong, and better quality control as the torch is not going to sit in the same place too long. I feel that this lack of an ok to move signal is the problem because metal is not the same sheet in and sheet out and every time I change metal the delay needs to be set differently and even then it appears that I am either moving too soon or to slow, the ok to move would be the best solution to that problem and if so, does the powermax1000 have that option?

[jimcolt]

None of Hypertherm's tech service people will tell you that the torch is stuck in "Prearc Mode"....there simply is not a prearc mode on any of our systems or torches. Is it possible that you were speaking with a tech person from a distributor of our products?

As far as cutting specs....Hypertherm designs the torches and power supplies at our facility in New Hampshire.....we employ over 85 engineers that are involved in designing the process.....I strongly recomend that you use our specifications at least as a starting point in order to achieve the best combination of cut quality as well as consumable life.

Ground clamp....the plasma process is not overly picky about where the ground clamp is connected, however the height control may be. If there is a poor connection (through rust, paint, old slag, etc) it will not normally affect the high power of the arc...but if there are a few volts dropped through a marginal connection it will cause the height control to run closer to...or to collide with the plate. On my machine (PlasmaCam) I leave the ground cable bolted to one of the slats...and I don't have issues with the height control or the plasma. If I experienced diving of the torch...I would try cleaning a corner of the material I was cutting...and attach the ground cable directly just to see if that was causing the issue.

The speeds listed in all of the Hypertherm Powermax manuals can be achieved if the system is operating as designed...and with new consumables. If you open our manual and look at the cut charts you will see two speeds listed...max speed and optimal speed. Use the optimal speed setting...as this is the correct speed to use for mechanized cutting..best edge squareness with minimal dross and warpage.

The Powermax600 does not have an arc transfer output (also known as machine motion)...this is a contact closure from the plasma that indicates that the plasma has transferred to the plate. The Powermax45, 1000, 1250 and 1650 do have this function. If you need this function....you can actually make a simple arc transfer sensor using a glass tube magnetic reed switch...that is epoxied inside a piece of iron (1/4" or 3/8") pipe....wrap about 4 or 5 turns of the work clamp cable around the iron pipe and you will see the reed switch activate whenever the plasma arc transfers (the current flowing through the cable creates an electromagnetic effect).

Other issues that can cause the torch to dive during cutting:

1. The machine slows down on fine features....when it is in slowdown, the machine code in your part program must freeze the height control functions...or the torch will dive. This can also occur on kerf crossings...and if you have a lead out programmed on small holes....the torch will dive when the scrap slug drops. With most cnc systems you can add a machine code to freeze height at any area of the part program. I suggest talking to the machine manufacturer to see how to activate this function.

2. If you must cut slower than Hypertherm recommended speeds....then you will need to dial in a much higher arc voltage number to compensate.

3. As the electrode and nozzle wear...they will cause the arc length (voltage) to be higher...which causes the height control to move the torch closer to the plate. You only have 1/16" to deal with.....it is normal to have to dial in 5 to 10 additional arc volts after there is some wear on the consumables.

I hope this helps a bit.

Best regards, Jim colt

[Torchhead]

First: What Jim is telling you about the cut gap, tip volts,and feedrate WORKS. The charts for the Hypertherm are very close provided your THC is accurate. The 600 machine is a nice machine for cutting thinner materials. The Fine Cut (if you look at all of the part numbers) is just a smaller oriface nozzle. You use it without the mechanized shield. You can buy just the nozzle for a few bucks. One note here though, the Fine cut tips use an even closer cut gap and lower current setting on the machine. You can get very nice thin kerf cuts on 16ga. You can get prettry good cuts with a 40A tip and moving at the correct feedrate and cut gap. All cutting with 40 amp tips and up is supposed to be at .063" Pierce at .125 to .150 to prevent blowback.

Cutting thin material presents bigger challenges. I usually advise setting up and doing a series of straight line test cuts on 11 or 12 ga and do a manual cut (THC Turned off) at the right gap and feedrate to establish some parameters. Hopefully the THC will read the cut voltage in manual mode so you can get feedback as to what it is seeing. Once you can cut with the THC on material that does not buckle and bow as much you can then start working on the thin stuff and using Fine Cut tips

At the preset volts of 150 with a 40A tip and 16ga you shoul dbe seeing a cut gap very close to the recommended 1/16th inch.

It's possible you may be getting some noise from the plasma arc into the THC electronics and that would really screw up the response. While a HF start plasma (which the 600 is NOT) will put out a pulse of HF noise at pierce the cutting process will still generate a level of noise. It's important that the table and plasma chassis be grounded (to a local ground rod if possible). The workclamp on a plasma is NOT ground and if your table is not grounded can actually have voltage and noise in relation to earth ground (where the PC and logic circuits live)

While the Arc Xfr (ok to move) signal helps in the pierce process there are other factors that can contribute to the head diving. There needs to be a programmed delay where the THC "ignores" the crazy voltage spike that comes from pierceing at 1/8" and then moving the head down to initial cut height. The THC does not need to take over until the voltage has stabilized.

We have dozens of guys using Hypertherm 600 units. We supply a Current Sense transformer that works with a trip circuit (on our THC Sensor card) to develop ARC OK for units that do not have the signal. On a 600 you have to take several wraps through the CT to develop enough voltage to get a usable signal.

You can cut rusty, oily dirty and even painted material as long as the workclamp has good conduction to the material. It needs to be clamped onto the material (not just the slats) on a bare and clean spot. Rusty material may cause problems with IHS (Initial height sensing) that uses ohmic sensing.

One of the dirty little secrets of plasma cutting is that there are lots of variables that don't exist with contact rotary cutting (wood routing) and other types of material. Get one wrong and you start to have problems. Get two wrong and the problems multiply.

So:

1. Clean, Dry Air
2. Proper grounding
3. Proper current setting for a given nozzle
4. Good workclamp contact
5. Proper Feedrates
6. Proper cut gap (tip volts)
7. Accurate gap control (= or - 1 volt or better)
8. Constant Velocity (blended speed) cutting
9. Good Consummables

Piercing wears tips and electrodes much more than cutting. If you pierce too low the blowback from molten metal fouls the tip and ruins the electrode. If you loose arc while cutting it can come from a poor workclamp contact, bad moves by the THC or bad consummables. If it happens with fresh consummables then try it without the THC. If it still happens check your air and cable connections on both ends. I had one customer that was ready to roll his whole rig into a local mud bog until he opened the unit and found the workclamp connection was loose inside.

Listen to the plasma manufacturer for the correct settings. cut gap and feedrates. They have thousands and thousands of hours of experience with their equipment and the know what works best. If you wander off the charts (use a different cut current for a given tip than is on the chart) then you will need to establish the correct gap volts on your own. It won't vary more than a few volts but a few volts makes a lot of difference.

TOM CAUDLE
www.CandCNC.com

[PHSS]

Jim:

As far as the whole prearc thing goes, it was the dealer that used the term, but when discussing it with your tech guys they did not correct me and used it synonymously with the issue of the plunger being stuck at, a simple communication error something that's not important anyways.

Today I went to work and set the thing up using the specs in the manual for the RT60 torch, it said with 40 amp consumables I should run the table at 114 ipm at 25amps with an arc voltage of 150ish i forget the exact number.

I then proceeded to run torchmates line speed test, a set of 13 lines parallel to each other about 4 inches long and then a 14th line all the way around cutting out the part. I set each line to cut at intervals of 5 ipm from 100-165 which is well below the minimum and almost at the max. I used a pierce of 0.2, the setting torchmate told me to use and a cut height of 0.06 (I think or maybe it cut at 0.2 the whole time) and While the lines were cutting i recorded the voltage readings on my height controller to use later in automatice mode. the results were

The machine did not pierce through a single line and thus did not cut a single thing. and the voltage on the height controller was 170 ish... well above the 150 specified

I increased the amps to 30 and it pierced every line thou there was a lot of slag and most were barely cut through the best was ironically the 114, the recommended speed. and the height controller voltage was 153 close to the 150. So I input the voltage into the height controller, put it into auto mode, ran the same test but the entire program running at 114ipm and set my cut height to 1/16th. ran the program, the results were:

All lines had a distinct pierce hole and another hole at the other end when it stopped moving, but not one line was cut through. And the torch head was clearly lowering onto the metal and dragging across.

I then had enough and went home. So, why in manual mode did it cut the lines? and not in auto? I never ran it again all at 114 and manual to see if it ran but I don't know what would come of that, if it won't cut at 1/16th, I doubt it would at 1/8."

I usually put the ground right on the material because my table has slats just sitting in slots and it jiggles, I thought that it might be a possible bad connection. It this thing ever starts working I will be making new slats, saw tooth style and tack weld it all together.

I feel the arc transfer output would be better because as I understand it I wont need to use a pierce delay anymore, the machine will tell the table when to start moving. I can easily make what you are talking about as I used to teach electronics at one time, but as I would assume I would be running a wire from my ok to move input port on my table controller to one side of the reed switch but where do I take power from on this model that is of appropriate voltage and amperage to give the signal, or do I need to provide my own power supply, if so what do I need, I can make a very simple device, how I used to make cheap power supplies for my classroom projects, by getting old appliance power adapters, most range from 1-18vdc. Or does that sucker need AC for the ok to move if so (which I doubt) I can make that in other ways.

Also all of my consumables for this new torch are 40 amp but the nozzle, it says 60amps, will this make a difference.

[PHSS]

Torchhead:

I find it interesting that I have never heard about this grounding before, and recommendations on how to do this in a shop where there is not local grounding rod.

We have dozens of guys using Hypertherm 600 units. We supply a Current Sense transformer that works with a trip circuit (on our THC Sensor card) to develop ARC OK for units that do not have the signal. On a 600 you have to take several wraps through the CT to develop enough voltage to get a usable signal.

can you elaborate more on this? I am curios if this will work for my application rather than building what Jim suggested.


The one thing I am most disappointed in this cnc plasma thing is that I am being told I need to make test cuts, and change voltages all the time, torchmate told me I need to change my settings every time the temperature in the shop changes more than 5 degrees etc. I was given the initial impression that this technology is supposed to be for production not setting changing, I was led to believe that you just go over and cut once its all set up.

[xjdubber]

Hey where abouts are you in canada? I live in Langley BC if youre close by i'd come out and take a look for you.

[jimcolt]

If you are using a 60 Amp nozzle at 25 to 40 Amps....you get a very low energy density arc. I would suspect that the cut quality...if it was able to cut through the material at all....would be terrible. A 60 Amp nozzle is designed to work at 60 Amps.....a 40 Amp nozzle at 40 Amps...etc. You need to use the part numbers (for consumables) and the cutting specs recommended in the Hypertherm manual....or you just plain will not have success cutting.

The "ok to move" signal wiring.....you need to work with Torchmate on that. I don't know if you simply supply a contact closure to their input...or if they need to refernce a voltage.

Again....I suggest you get a set of the proper consumables (I recomend Fine Cut parts)...make sure they have the part numbers that are outlined in the Hypertherm manual...and follow the cutting specs. You will be happy with the results.

The plasma torch relies on a 24,000 (F) degree arc....and to maintain that arc some precise laws of physics have to be followed inside the torch. The copper nozzle will melt at 1400F......proper gas flow, exact current and the right mix of parts provide cooling for the consumables as well as the correct energy desity in the arc (12000 amps per square inch) to produce a good cut. With a 60 Amp nozzle at 30 Amps...you may be producing 6 to 7000 amps per square inch of energy. Once you are producing the correct arc...then we can go back and troubleshoot any issues with the height control....

Jim

[Switcher]

I will bring you up to speed on things....since I can't find my old post.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/search...archid=3348763


.

[stevensea]

PHSS, have you had a good look at your Torchmate torch hight controllers lifter unit? I found mine to have excessive backlash. I emailed the sales team at torchmate. They told me that there should be no backlash. So I emailed the tech team (no response) So I had a close look at the lifter screw. It's only a piece of brass thats been tapped to ride on the Machine screw(not ball screw) Its no bloody wonder its got backlash. Do you think you might also have backlash in the actual lifter unit?

[mrgraphic]

I've posted on here about my problems before about my torchmate, I think its a torchmate 2 or 3, my highschool bought it over the internet before I was hired but I am the one who has to make it work. I will bring you up to speed on things....since I can't find my old post.

I was having problems with the machine diving into the material with my height control unit, then when I gave up with the auto height unit, I had problems with cuts not being completed and the consumables would wear out after 5 minutes. Hypertherm replaced the torch on warranty saying it was stuck in prearc mode. Well new torch and again same old problems. The machine does not cut properly, misses cuts all the time, the height control does not react fast enough and does not work at all for the most part, I spend more time fighting, restarting programs after jumping back to lines that I can produce parts faster with my cutting torch.

The table was bought for its supposed ease of use and setup, well I have been trying to get this thing working for 4 months now, I have made more calls than I can count on all my students fingers to the tech support and still no working table. There is no way I can even begin to imagine trying to teach students to use this because of all the fighting and farting around I have had to do to make simple cuts.

I am really truly sick of it, I don't know whats wrong, I am getting tired of Torchmate blaming Hypertherm and viceversa, someone needs to figure this out. I have personally become fed up with it and have also been asked by another school district if I recommend this machine over Plasmacam, which I have used before and I had much better service and ease of use with that product over this one. Does anyone have any insight. I will now list the specifications of what I am doing and using:

Plasma table: small shop model
Auto height control: Blue screen
Plasma cutter hypertherm Powermax600
Torch: Brand new RT60M upgrade torch
Material being cut: 16 gauge sheet
Cutting Speed: 60 ipm
Voltage on height control: 150
Settings on Plasma machine: 40 amps, 70 PSI

Before you mention it I am well aware that torchmate has not tested the height control with my model of machine, unfortunately it was the machine the school bought before I came along and didn't tell me they were told not to use it, otherwise I would have returned it for a 1000 but when I found out about that it was too late. I did however get it working in the sense that if I lift the metal up the torch is adjusted up, I just think its not working well enough.

I just want the thing to work, no hassles, when I want it. And it won't do that, it will work fine some times and glitch all the time the next. This thing is just simply too temper mental to use in the school and I am finding its a collasal waste of time and money.

Wana Sell it 2Me?