Re - coating, a "must" after sharpening!

[Jake]

Hello Konrad !!

No i mostly dont grind woodtools in the Walter machine becouse
of that we are more focused on supporting the metall industrie
although we grind lots of tct sawblades in our walter CNC5 loader
for the wood industrie.

regarding coating woodtools we have tried , but the edges gets
to unsharp , one thing that does work is to coat the tool and then grind either the flute or the od , this works in some applications where you have burn problems.

No we dont coat our tools by ourself becouse of the price of a coating unit , and that the coatings all the time expands and you would have to change your equipment quite often to supply your customers with the latest coatings.

best regards / Jake

[Konrad]

Just got some quotes back from Kennametal.

1/2" 4 flute carbide.

Quantity, doesn't matter, 10 or 100 pieces, same price ea.

They say, they wouldn't do the coating only, because they are not manuf. by them.
So they would only do the whole job, cut off ends, by my recommended length of 1/8" [redo ends only] & recoating for guess how much!.... please sit down!
$33.00 C.D.
Well....I buy them new for $43.00...
Not worth sending them out!....Buy new ones.

We do the sharpening for $14.00
I have to check with a Shop in Vancouver, or just a bit ouside Vancouver what does coating. Does anybody know??

Konrad

[Durkee]

I agree about the price from Kennametal. Doesn't sound like they want to help much, eh? I don't have time to run back thru the thread so I'll try to respond to what I can remeber.

We get $11 usd for a 1/2" four flute carbide, ground all over. Cuttoff if needed is included.

In general, what small grinding shops like myself do, is do the regrind then send them out to be coated. I happen to send mine to one of two places. Either Balzers or Gold Star coating.

As far as regrinds not lasting as long as new, my response is it all depends on the geometry along with the speeds and feeds you are using to grind, what type of coolant is in the grinder, and what shape you keep your wheel packs in just to name a few of the parameters.

I like to get to know the customer. Get them to tell me what it is they are going to try to get accomplished. If it's a tough job that requires special geometries, then I will give the tool a specific part # and save the program to use just for that customers job.

There are an infinite number of ways to grind the same tool. Every toolgrinder has his own ideas, but testing and experience is the key. Don't be fooled into thinking that coating is the cure all. It works great, but it is not necessarily cost effective to coat every tool. Coatings vary widely and are getting very application specific.

Hope I wasn't just babbling and that you could pull something of use from this post.

[Lawncutcraig]

The shop I work at has 2 Walter 5 axis machines that make several carbide em's for customers daily and they might send a dozen a week to be coated. Customers don't want to spend the extra $14.00 to have them coated, thats the cost of a 3/4 carbide EM for are shop. The dull em's with the coating are just cut off behind the dull and then we keyway them.

Craig

[Durkee]

I own a toolgrinding shop and we too use Walter CNC toolgrinders. I'm wondering what you mean keywaying an end mill. Sorry, but I have just never heard that term.

Keith

[Durkee]

Thanks Mouldmaker & Jake,

Yes Jake, it looks like we have to send them out, I have Kennametal to give me a quote.

Since, we just started to grind endmills on a Walter 5 axis CNC machine, there is not a problem anymore to grind the cutters as new, all we need now is the coating on carbide.

How is it with your Carbide Endmills, are they mostly worn on the very end, like from our Customers, or you have to sharpen everything? If you do, then the standard diameter is gone, and that's for some CNC Machinenist, like myself a problem, you have to redo the programs.

Can you recoat the tools yourself, or you have to send them out??
Oh...I just seen your posts on Walter CNC grinders, it looks like you sharpen the tools for the woodindustrie,
Are some of the tools also coated??
Here, I have not seen it yet.

Why your # of Posts still stands on # 5, after you have posted so many times??

Konrad

I have to agree with Chad on this one. There should be absolutely no problem with undersize tooling. Just comp it and away you go. Unless the customers specifically requests that we just cut off the end, we always grind the whole tool. Flute rake included. Most end mills are built to have a very strong edge in order to make it hold up to many different applications. Not always the best way to go. Different applications require different geometry. I try to know my customers well enough to know what they are going to use the tool for and adjust geometries accordingly. That's more than Kennametal can do for you. If it's for a specific job, then we name the program accordingly, adjust geometries for the application, and save the program for the next time. As far as coatings are concerned, we have several sources to use. Turn-around is normally less than a week and rush is possible. It's just not economically feasible to try to get set up for private coating. But we handle everything for the customer. They do not have to send the tooling out themselves. Anything we can do to make the machinists job easier.

Just my 2 cents

Keith

[Lawncutcraig]

Keyway is the trem used in are shop same as cut off and end only or radius. The Walters in are shop has the 400 control with 16hp motors there older machines with all updated software and motors. There considering getting a newer one at around $250.000 Everything we do is geared towards aircraft with quick turn around service. The shop has been in business for 35 years.

[Lawncutcraig]

Keith,
What kind of prices do you get for sharpening 3/4 carbide em's with a comp grind and a corner radius .125-.250 we charge $16.00 to $18.00 A 1" carbide em complete with a corner radius $21.00 Do you charge extra for cutting off 3/4 and 1" carbide em's? If we have to cut 3/4 and 1" em's off we charge an extra $2.00 If they don't need cut off and the corners are chipped we will just bump them back with a diamond cup wheel.

Craig

[Konrad]

thanks Craig for your post!
when you say, the shop you work for, make endmills daily for Customers? does that mean, cutters are made of special specifications, then the ones you can buy off the shelf ?

We only do regrind, that's what our Deckel is designed for.
I agree, with the way you are dealing with regrinds, that's exactly how we do it!
Not worth it, doing the re - coat!
Take care...and a happy new year everybody!
Konrad

[Lawncutcraig]

Konrad,

Thanks for the welcome,

Yes, we order tons of carbide blanks. Customers will then order different lengths of cuts (flute length) over all lengths, radius, and placements for set screw flats. Sometimes depending on the work load one machine will be fluting and the other doing the od, end, and radius. We also make alot of specials for are customers at their request. No we don't have any on the shelf for sale because of the different lengths of cut and radius sizes.

[Durkee]

Keith,
What kind of prices do you get for sharpening 3/4 carbide em's with a comp grind and a corner radius .125-.250 we charge $16.00 to $18.00 A 1" carbide em complete with a corner radius $21.00 Do you charge extra for cutting off 3/4 and 1" carbide em's? If we have to cut 3/4 and 1" em's off we charge an extra $2.00 If they don't need cut off and the corners are chipped we will just bump them back with a diamond cup wheel.

Craig

We get $16.75 for a 3/4 carbide end mill complete including flute rake and $18.50 for a 1" ground the same way. No extra charge for the cut off. Ball is extra if it starts out square. Otherwise, it's just a re-grind. We also make custom tools and end mills to customer specs.

We just call keywaying and end mill, 'end only'. Must be a regional term.

Keith

[Enda]

no mater how you regrind your cutter, especially carbide ones, you have to get them re coated, its a pointless exercise unless there cutting soft materials.
We use an ANCA RX7 5 axis grinder to sharpen our tools and then get them re coated.
we machine a lot of M42, M4 , M2 and rex 76, all tough **** so coating is essential for us in order to get any life out of the tools.