Techno Vacuum Table Help - Page 2


Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 94

Thread: Techno Vacuum Table Help

  1. #21
    Registered Dave's_Not_Here's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    387
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Progress...

    It's been a while since I updated. I have been busy adding another piece of equipment and starting another business, but hope to get back at it in the coming days.

    I have all the zones plumbed; the 10hp blower is wired to the 10hp VFD and main panel and ready for programming. All I have left in that area is the 10 port manifold.

    The last thing I need to do is strip off the original black top on the extruded table and install my plenum strips. From there, I should be ready to test it out.

    Hope to post updated photos soon.

    Dave



  2. #22
    Registered Dave's_Not_Here's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    387
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Been way too busy...

    ... to make much progress on the conversion. Seems every time I get ready to strip off the old surface and install the new plenum strips, I get another job requiring me to cut material that needs vacuum hold down. On top of that, I have a new machine running in another business and it has paid for itself already... but has absorbed a good amount of my time.

    I have another CNC job that will be off the table in a couple of weeks, so maybe I can get the table stripped and lay out the new plenum strips after that.

    The 10HP Regen Blower and 10HP VFD are all wired up and ready to test drive. The 10 port manifold is finished and ready to connect to the vacuum control valves with some 2" ID Hose and then complete the plumbing with connections to the Regen Blower... so I guess I have made some progress.

    D



  3. #23
    Registered Dave's_Not_Here's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    387
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Finally, the 10 Zone Manifold ...

    ... is completed.

    I have to determine the final height of the Manifold and trim the hoses and attach with hose clamps.

    The 10 HP VFD and Blower are wired and a dedicated circuit was installed.

    Next step is to plumb from the Main Manifold Ball Joint, to the 10 HP Blower. Hope to get that completed those coming week and then move on to the final phase of replacing the factory table top strip material with custom vacuum plenum strips.

    SD

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Techno Vacuum Table Help-manifold-1-jpg   Techno Vacuum Table Help-manifold-2-jpg  


  4. #24
    Registered Pplug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    723
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    That's awesome! I would kill for that! Unfortunately I don't have 3 phase power in my house for the vacume.

    http://www.glenspeymillworks.com Techno LC4896 - 2.2Kw Water Cooled Spindle | Moving Table Mill from Omis 3 CMM, 500Lb granite base | Epilog Legend 32 Laser Engraver


  5. #25
    Registered Dave's_Not_Here's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    387
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pplug View Post
    That's awesome! I would kill for that! Unfortunately I don't have 3 phase power in my house for the vacume.
    I don't have 3 phase power either. That's why I installed the 10HP VFD to convert the 1 phase input to 3 phase output. I got a really nice deal on the VFD from an EBay Seller.

    I did have to add a 70 AMP Breaker to my box and run the appropriate cable to the blower. I had an electrician friend from church help me do the work.

    So far, I am into the project less than $4,000

    (1) 10 HP VFD
    (1) 10 HP Fuji Regenerative Blower
    (1) 10 Extrusion Extensions and Table End Caps
    (70) AMP Circuit
    (30') Appropriate gauge wire and plug ends
    (10) Ball Valves
    (10) PVC Threaded Couplings
    (10') 2" PVC Pipe
    (25') 2" Dust Collector Hose
    (12) Zip Ties (cheaper than hose clamps and easily removed and replaced)

    I estimate that I have saved at least $8,000-$12,000 buying and fabricating parts for this 10 Zone Vacuum Manifold setup, compared to a full 5 Zone setup from the manufacturer.

    It has taken about a year to get this far, as I shopped EBay and had client projects to do and equipment failures to repair. So, depending on your cash flow, a highly flexible 10 Zone Vacuum Table can be had for 25% of the manufacturers price.

    So, don't let 1 phase power stop you.

    D



  6. #26
    Registered Pplug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    723
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    I have a 200 amp service in my main box. What else(if anything) runs off the 70 amp panel? Does the blower use all 70 amps when you start it up? If it does I bet the lights go dim for a sec!

    I'm asking this because I would like to add a sub panel to my box to run my shop, and use higher powered stuff than my 2.2kw spindle and 220v delta unisaw.

    http://www.glenspeymillworks.com Techno LC4896 - 2.2Kw Water Cooled Spindle | Moving Table Mill from Omis 3 CMM, 500Lb granite base | Epilog Legend 32 Laser Engraver


  7. #27
    Registered Dave's_Not_Here's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    387
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    My 70 AMP Circuit only serves the Fuji Blower, which runs on less that 30 AMPS after startup. I have not run it yet, as I have to call the VFD Supplier in Texas to help walk me through the Inverter setup.

    Once I complete the Inverter setup, I will test fire the blower. I know I can control the blower ramp-up through the Inverter, so I am hoping that will eliminate any surge that would dim the lights.

    I am reasonably sure that the blower, without any ramp-up, will dim the lights, similar to when my wife runs her hair dryer. As long as I don't dim the neighborhoods lights, I can live with that.

    If it becomes an issue, I might have to install a small sub-panel just for the CNC Equipment... especially since I will be adding an HSD 5hp ATC Spindle this Summer.

    Dave



  8. #28
    Registered Dave's_Not_Here's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    387
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Fired up Fuji today...

    ... and it's alive!

    Sounds like a jet engine ramping up to take-off!

    The main reason for the sound, as best I can tell, is because I reversed one of the leads on the blower and it rotates the opposite of what it should. As such, the blower is pulling air through the silencer and out the intake, ( the small black PVC and filter in the photos.)

    The black PVC will be hooked to a mini cyclone chip extractor and then routed to the manifolds main ball valve on the end of the manifold. The volume of air screaming out of the 2" PVC is very loud... Once I reverse the rotation, the silencer is supposed to keep the db's around 70-75, much quieter than it is right now.

    Glad to report, that with a 10 second ramp-up, there is no dimming of the lights whatsoever. The 70AMP breaker is working just fine for start-up.

    Other than the minor wire reversal, all I have to do now is remove my $50 vacuum table and install the plenum strips, mill the gasket channels, drill the vacuum holes and call it done.

    SD

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Techno Vacuum Table Help-blower1-jpg   Techno Vacuum Table Help-blower2-jpg  


  9. #29
    Registered Dave's_Not_Here's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    387
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Switched the T1 and T2...

    ... leads on the VFD and the blower now turns in the correct direction. Sound was cut by at least 40%. Once I connect the final plenum plumbing, I expect another significant drop in the db's.

    Also, the VFD allows me to set the readout to AMPS drawn during operation and the 10hp Fuji draws less than 13 AMPS after start-up.

    Quite pleased.

    SD



  10. #30
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    5
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Dave,
    Is it ready for sale yet?
    Looking forward to purchasing it.

    Michael



  11. #31
    Registered
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    US
    Posts
    91
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave's_Not_Here View Post
    So far, I am into the project less than $4,000

    In my own project, I started with a $1325.00 vacuum pump and a 6 port vacuum chuck that supports a 24" x 18" region, that I charged my customers $150.00 for. The chuck never changed, but ultimately, I ended up making a 6 port shop vac attachment for the standard 2" 5.5 HP shop vac, which actually worked much better.

    Joe Jared - OsiruSoft Research and Engineering - http://www.oretek.com


  12. #32
    Registered Dave's_Not_Here's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    387
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by joejared View Post
    In my own project, I started with a $1325.00 vacuum pump and a 6 port vacuum chuck that supports a 24" x 18" region, that I charged my customers $150.00 for. The chuck never changed, but ultimately, I ended up making a 6 port shop vac attachment for the standard 2" 5.5 HP shop vac, which actually worked much better.
    My initial setup cost me about $75. I made a 48" x 96" torsion box from 2x4's and 3/4" plywood top and bottom. Machined a lot of 1/2" holes in the top and connected a 2" PVC fitting into one end. I hooked my shop vac to the 2" PVC and had a powerful vacuum table. Only drawback was too many holes, so vacuum bleed was an issue from time to time.

    I wanted a full scale vacuum table setup that had maximum flexibility. This launched the quest to make a factory knock-off. I have run the 10hp blower on the original $75 vacuum table and cut full sheets of cabinet doors and drawer fronts, but had to tape off some of the toolpaths to minimize vacuum bleed from having waaaay too many holes in the table top.

    If I were to do the original $75 vacuum table again, I would reduce the hole count by 50% and cut the diameter down to .25" or .375". I would still get great vacuum and not have so many holes exposed on through cuts, thus reducing or eliminating vacuum bleed.

    Dave



  13. #33
    Registered
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    US
    Posts
    91
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave's_Not_Here View Post
    If I were to do the original $75 vacuum table again, I would reduce the hole count by 50% and cut the diameter down to .25" or .375". I would still get great vacuum and not have so many holes exposed on through cuts, thus reducing or eliminating vacuum bleed.

    Dave
    My own vacuum chuck uses #36 (0.089") holes and worked well for 480 holes. It sounds like we've explored similar methods.

    Joe Jared - OsiruSoft Research and Engineering - http://www.oretek.com


  14. #34
    Registered Dave's_Not_Here's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    387
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by joejared View Post
    My own vacuum chuck uses #36 (0.089") holes and worked well for 480 holes. It sounds like we've explored similar methods.

    yes, I believe we have...

    I would agree with more holes but smaller diameter. I could see a bunch of .125" holes on a 1" grid spacing on the $75 vacuum table.

    Another reason for going with the Mfg. knock-off was to allow me to control a lot of zones with ball valves, a limited amount of shape-specific gasketing and a hand-full of plugs. That way I can shut off all but one or two of the 10 zones with the ball valves, and apply vacuum to a small irregular shaped piece with a few feet of gasket and 6-8 hole-plugs. Closing the main ball-valve allows me to replace parts and re-open the main ball-valve and run the file again.

    SD



  15. #35
    Registered Dave's_Not_Here's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    387
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Techno Vacuum Table Help

    Well. . . an update to an old thread.

    In the ensuing years:

    I have built a metal plenum box and had it powder coated.
    I have put Industrial PVC strips on the extrusions
    I have milled .5" holes on 6" centers on every strip.
    I have milled an identical grid pattern on every strip; as the Techno Strips that cost 10x more.
    I have laser cut acrylic discs to block off unused holes in the strips.
    I have closed cell gasketing around the perimeter of each strip.

    I have used the table for smaller zones and it works amazingly well. However, when I have all 10 zones open and try running full 4x8 sheet goods, the vacuum is all but gone in certain areas (typically the corners furthest away from the plenum.)

    I am frustrated that the vacuum will not hold down a 4x8 sheet securely. My first $75 DIY Shop Vac table did a 1,000x better job of holding full sheets, even pulling through an MDF spoil board!

    I am using a 10HP Regenerative Blower.
    I have about 200 .5" holes through which to pull a vacuum.
    My total cubic feet in all 10 extrusions is 2.78 Cubic Feet.
    The blower moves 388 Cubic Feet Per Minute, so it will clear all 10 extrusions 140 times per minute, or nearly 2.5 times per second!.

    So, what am I missing? I am not a vacuum expert by any stretch, but if my table is set up the same as the factory setup, and I am using one of the factory recommended blower setups, why am I having issues pulling down a simple sheet of .25" acrylic?

    If I can't resolve this issue, I am close to pulling the system off the table and going back to my $75 setup.

    Any help or suggestions would be appreciated!!

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Techno Vacuum Table Help-ball-valves-jpg   Techno Vacuum Table Help-part-hold-jpg   Techno Vacuum Table Help-part-hold-2-jpg  


  16. #36
    Member ericscottf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    214
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Techno Vacuum Table Help

    Dave,

    Do you have a vacuum gage in your plumbing? If so, what does it read when pulling down the mdf? And what does it read when you close all the valves completely?

    Blowers are good for holding down porous materials that can't be held by pressure, like open cell foams. Pumps are better for high pressure low flow materials like acrylic.

    You implied you don't have a spoil board with what you've got now? Is it just acrylic directly on the table with gasket in between? Send some pics and I'll let you know what I see.

    Eric

    Eric Feldman - Design Engineer, Programmer
    Armor CNC - http://www.armorcnc.com Support hours: 7am thru 10pm EST, 7 days a week


  17. #37
    Registered Dave's_Not_Here's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    387
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Techno Vacuum Table Help

    Quote Originally Posted by ericscottf View Post
    Dave,

    Do you have a vacuum gage in your plumbing? If so, what does it read when pulling down the mdf? And what does it read when you close all the valves completely?

    Blowers are good for holding down porous materials that can't be held by pressure, like open cell foams. Pumps are better for high pressure low flow materials like acrylic.

    You implied you don't have a spoil board with what you've got now? Is it just acrylic directly on the table with gasket in between? Send some pics and I'll let you know what I see.

    Eric
    Hi Eric,

    I added the Fuji VB-89 Vacuum Booster when I installed the Fuji Blower. That way it can run continuous without hurting the blower motor. I don't have a vacuum gauge in the system I asked the Fuji tech department manager if I needed it and he said it wasn't a requirement for my install.

    Yes, I was cutting the acrylic directly on the table, with an area gasketed off, unused holes plugged and only the required ball valves open.

    I understand what you are saying about the porous MDF working better in a blower situation, than just the table alone. I can get a sheet of MDF, skin the top and bottom, and see how it does as a spoil board.

    I am glad to send you some photos. What exactly do you want me to photograph for you? (BTW, I finally got the limit switches installed and they work great. Also got the 4th axis dialed in. . .sort of.)

    Thanks for reaching out,

    Dave



  18. #38
    Member ericscottf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    214
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Techno Vacuum Table Help

    How large of a part are you holding down?

    You don't "need" a vacuum gage just like you don't need a tach in your car. It just helps. Especially when something isn't working how you want it to. I recommend adding one, it should be cheap and easy to get one in. This will tell us if the blower is pulling its max, system is leaking, etc.

    Mdf won't help the vacuum, that's not what I was getting at. You might need something as a spoil board if you're cutting all the way thru, but if not, it's not like that will make it work better. It's just that pumps work better to hold down airtight materials, while blowers are better for leaky ones. This is because pumps do high pressure, low flow pulling, and blowers do high flow, low pressure.

    An overall pic of material on the machine would be a good start, maybe one with the vacuum table/system would be another. Your call.

    Eric

    Eric Feldman - Design Engineer, Programmer
    Armor CNC - http://www.armorcnc.com Support hours: 7am thru 10pm EST, 7 days a week


  19. #39
    Registered Dave's_Not_Here's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    387
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Techno Vacuum Table Help

    Eric,

    I know a vacuum gauge would be beneficial. I have a couple I use for vacuum pressing. I could tape one into the line somewhere.

    These photos are of my plenum, the ball valves controlling each extrusion, the main ball valve controlling flow into the plenum, the new electric ball valve that works amazingly well controlling flow into the plenum, the table grid holding a small 6" x 8" piece, several photos of the old $75 set up cutting full sheets of Sentra and MDF cabinet doors.

    The current table strips are industrial gray PVC, milled exactly like the phenolic strips that Techno Isel use to sell, only more affordable. Same grid design. same hole pattern, same gasket channels.

    I can get more photos if these are not what you are looking for.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Techno Vacuum Table Help-ball-valves-jpg   Techno Vacuum Table Help-electric-solinoid-valve-jpg   Techno Vacuum Table Help-electric-solenoid-switch-jpg   Techno Vacuum Table Help-part-hold-2-jpg  

    Techno Vacuum Table Help-weeklyscheduleboards4-jpg   Techno Vacuum Table Help-weeklyscheduleboards-jpg   Techno Vacuum Table Help-img_8439-jpg   Techno Vacuum Table Help-img_8438-jpg  



  20. #40
    Member ericscottf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    214
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Techno Vacuum Table Help

    Your table strips are fine. The pump is probably fine - not ideal for acrylic, but it should work.
    I read back over your recent posts - it sounds like you're having trouble holding down a whole 4x8 sheet of acrylic direct to the table surface, right?

    Next step is to get a vacuum gauge plumbed into your system. put it on the pump side of the valves so we can test properly. Need to see what the PSI draw is both open and closed valves.
    This will help us figure out what's going on.

    Eric

    Eric Feldman - Design Engineer, Programmer
    Armor CNC - http://www.armorcnc.com Support hours: 7am thru 10pm EST, 7 days a week


Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


About CNCzone.com

    We are the largest and most active discussion forum for manufacturing industry. The site is 100% free to join and use, so join today!

Follow us on


Our Brands

Techno Vacuum Table Help

Techno Vacuum Table Help