Taig DSLS 3000 vs. Super (Sieg) X3 CNC

[msc]

Newbie here... I have checked the archives, some very experienced users! I am sure you are all tired of these by decision threads, "this vs. that" .... but any input would sure be appreciated. An ounce of prevention is always worth a pound of cure! :-)

Background.... I have not been on a mill for 30 years, but am very mechanical, do lots of woodworking and some light design work in my engineering work. Good CAD skills. I plan to use this CNC mill for small parts for a part time business....my goal is to make my own parts when the volume is low enough to save on costs. Low run, maybe 30 of a given part, which is why I prefer the mill be set up CNC right from the start...I can learn one system and use it for both manual and CNC.

I have narrowed down my choices to the above two CNC mills, however, I am open to other suggestions. I have no real budget, but would like to keep the entire start-up package (including 4th axis rotary table and assorted clamps and mills) under ~ $8k. I prefer to buy a package that is a complete system, I don't have the time or the desire to build tools, I prefer to invest my time on using them efficiently. (that will take enough time) That said, I think the BobCad / Mach 3 system is a nice combination that I would like to employ on the CNC I choose. It seems with the Mach3 interface, there is no real need to have manual controls on the axis as it seems everything can be dialed in via the keyboard....quite an evolution since I used mills long ago...... very impressive machines considering the price.

I have narrowed down to these two CNC's cause they have about the right working area...

DSLS 12" / 5.5" / 6" (XYZ)
SSX3 15.5" / 6.9" / 9.1"

for comparison, here is the Smithy CNC622

622 9" / 5.5" / 12.2"

http://www.microproto.com/MMDSLS.htm

http://www.syilamerica.com/product_h4.asp

https://www.smithy.com/uploads/Smith...nformation.pdf

The SSX3 does have a bigger work cube which is nice. It also is much more robust machine, 85 lbs vs. 425 lbs, 1/4 hp vs. 1.3 hp. I will be milling smaller parts mostly alum. and brass. But one never knows what the future holds, so its nice to keep the options open.

The price for the SSX3 is $3850, which does not include the Mach3 software (I think) I am curious if the X3 has a working licence with Mach3 software, as this is probably a key component for a ready-to-use system. Does anyone know this?

The DSLS3000 system with Mach3 and BobCad is $3700... a lot for the money. The SSX3 would have the added cost of BobCad and Mach3.... still, a lot more robust machine for the small difference in price.


The benefits of the DSLS, as I see it, its a proven system and complete from soup to nutz. A little short on power though. Not sure how long the SSx3 has married all the bits n pieces into a pre packaged system?


I looked at the Smithy, but the work cube areas are quite smaller, even though the price is much higher. They appear to be very well built machines, and I really appreciate the nice marketing material they have on their web site, often a sign of an organized company.

So unless I am missing a paticular CNC mill that fits in this category of "CNC ready-to-run", with similar cube sizes, I am leaning towards the SSX3, but really would love to hear more about your experiences with this machine and how well it interfaces with the software. Or, any comments regarding this purchase. TYIA

[Stepper Monkey]

I run a Taig personally and love it, but I make REALLY tiny parts. The Taig is actually the giant of my three machines.

Just my 2 cents, but I would really lean toward the X3 for any "real" machining.

The Mach controllers initial setup is no big deal for any machine, especially one as popular as the X3.
For the CAM program, any CAM design program is pretty standalone, whether it comes bundled or sold separately. It is usually the same unaltered generic program you would buy elsewhere, at best there may just be a price break given. There really shouldn't be a lot of weight placed on whether or not it is part of a package. Integration just isn't a problem.
In general the CAM output, regardless of the machine you have, is only tailored for Mach anyway. Only Mach needs to be setup to handle translating based on the specifics of the given machine - I generate the same G-code from my CAM programs regardless of which program I use that day, and regardless of which my three different machines it eventually goes out to - the CAM's just all write in generic Mach, and Mach is just setup with three translation profiles for me to choose from.

In short, buy the machine you will best use and need based on its performance alone. Any "package" advantage for the software is fleeting at best and might only save you an hour or two of initial setup at most.

[msc]

Stepper, thanks for the input. I did not realize how generic the software has become, that's good info. Sounds like the Mach is the engine to be concerned about, and the X3 as you mention is very popular, so I assume it integrates well with Mach... I will confirm this with Syil.

One interesting point I missed in my criteria.... I really like the option of horizontal milling. The X3 seems unique in this regard. I assume the head can still move on the z axis when in horizontal mode, and Mach will recognize it in the horizontal mode? This will add lots of versatility for cutting dovetails for wood joinery...

[wizard]

Just a few things that might be helpful. Most CAM programs output G-Code the language that CNC controllers understand which is fairly industry standard. There is actually an official G-code standard, RS-274 I think (experts can jump in), that CNC software like MACH follows. This does not mean however that all G-code written for a specific machine is transferable to other machines.

As to CNC machines in this size do not expect any of them to perform like commercial machines. There is a reason they are cheap. As to the machines mentioned I'd look for local support and good quality upgrades to the Chinese castings. Things like ball screws and such. The TIAG is a bit different in this respect as I believe most of it is made in the USA.

Personally I think all of them are rather small for commercial work. Of course that is dictated some what based on part size and quantity but ask your self how much room you have to work with after you mount fixture plates ad other work holding devices. There is a vast difference in doing one off parts on these machines and doing even casual production.

Smithy does produce nice machines. Try to determine why their prices are higher. Is it ball screws, the use of linear rails or something else.

Unfortunately I won't be able to make it to NAMES again this year. A couple of years ago Smithy debuted prototypes of their first CNC machine. As prototypes go I was impressed, unfortunately I have not seen their latest production machinery. If you can take a jog over to NAMES and look around. Talk to some of the CNC people and get a few for what the machines are capable of. The are actually impressive at considering the limitations in size and component quality. I just don't want you to think that they are a match for CNC machining centers from the big boys.

Dave

[msc]

Wizard, thanks for the reply... I assumed some of what you wrote.... but as you can imagine, its never easy getting side by side comparisons of every machine. What is NAMES, where is it?


I am curious if you can expand a bit....

1. The Sieg Super X3 seems to have upgraded many of the bits n pieces to bring the machine up to a higher standard. Is there additional upgrades you (or anyone) would suggest to increase accuracy, repeatability, reliability, performance, etc?


2. Since mills in general are pretty accurate machines, and the Super X3 has many component upgrades, they advertise the same repetability / accuracy as the smithy machines. Granted these values are somewhat dependent on other variables, but if they are even close, I would consider this impressive as the SX3 is less costly and has significantly more travel for machines in the same size /* weight category.


3. The issue with the Smithy machines is... the biggest machine I want to handle is 500 lbs, and at that weight, only the Smithy 622 applies, and it has much smaller travel in X and Y,

15.5" vs. 9" on X

6.9" vs. 5..5" on Y

In addition, I am hoping to do some horizontal milling, which it appears the smithy can NOT do. Hence the uniqueness of this X3, unless I am missing other CNC mills in this size / weight... the X3 part size fits my needs well.....


> There is a vast difference in doing one off parts on these machines and doing even casual production.

Can you please expand on this... I am interested in learning how these differences can surface.


> There is a reason they are cheap.

I understand this very well....and this is where forums like this help us understand the differences when they exist.... sometimes we get lucky and we find people who have experienced both machines.

But today, unlike 20 years ago, I do not always equate less expensive with less quality. As you know, the Asian companies have really stepped up their game in the manufacturing field. And often, these machines are very labor intensive to make, and often, this is one of the biggest factors that drive down prices. Also in my experience, the Asian companies are also much happier with smaller mark-ups than US companies.... which also adds signficantly to the lower prices. The Wal Mart syndrome continues in USA, everyone wants to protect USA jobs, yet, Wal Mart keeps growing in leaps n bounds.

For example, Grizzly today (not 10 years ago) is producing some amazing woodworking machines and at much reduced cost then their USA competitors. Which of course, forced all the USA firms to manufacturer overseas also, now they are more competitive than before, but Grizzly still excels due to their volume and on-site QC abroad. I recently bought a European import Bandsaw for $3k as people have always raved about them for years.... and yet, when I compared it to my buddies Grizzly for $1k less, I would have preferred the Grizzly. IMO, times change quickly in todays market, its very dynamic today.

It took years for the Asians to develop better workmanship and quality control in each industry, often driven by American firms who had more experience making the same products. The import machines had to prove themselves in the marketplace before USA makers truly felt threatened. (in the WW field) I think CNC mills will be experiencing this sasme transition over the next 10 years (just speculation on my part, I am no expert in this field).

Syil seems to represent the transition link between an Asian product which has a good starting basis....and Syil works the base unit to produce a nice finished product that hopefully has some QC, putting it, hopefully, in the plug n play category.....as this is what many end users desire. Would others agree with my thinking here?

Overall on this forum, comments on Syil have been very favorable, which is very impressive, as quite often these forums can be quite harsh to vendors who fall short of customer expectations. I do realize this forum is more for hobbiest, but often, hobbiest have very high expecations, as they have more time to belabor issues :-)

When I mention the USA firms driving the Asian firms to better products, I am not suggesting it is only USA firms doing this, often times it is European firms, Aussie firms, etc... No offense was meant to other countries, as I have also seen their contributions in this cause.

[in2steam]

First, becareful you are comparing 3 products which are all in different realms. The smithy from what I understand is a machine soley and complety designed to be cnc. The syil machines are manual machines with hang on cnc conversion kits, and the taig is somewhere between. I honestly cannot say that I know much about the smithy, they seem to only be refered to this way on the forum, nobody seems to know anything about them. I own a taig lathe(the mill uses the same parts) and a sieg x3(recently purchased) of the 2 the taig is most certainly better quality, but is the smallest of the 3 you chose. If you are not worried about needing alot of space for working, and speed then the taig is the shinning star. There are other conversions out there for the taig, I suggest you check ebay for taig, deepgroove makes an excellent conversion with a 4th axis.
I would consider the x3 from syil if you are looking for working space expansion, the simple fact that you considered the taig says that you don't need a hudge area, right now. I have learned that you cannot ever buy enough machine if you are not building a dedicated part, something bigger will always come along. If you only plane on making a few parts, of that size then maybe start with a taig and expand later if space is not a issue, Taigs hold there resale very well.
You can buy other software, bobcad is not your only choice, and Mach 3 is in of itself a very nice program I would consider nothing else.
I would myself given your price range look at the Tormach, and possibly the IH machines also, they are both quite good, the tormach being a more turn key then the IH machine.
chris

[msc]

Chris, thanks for the response....

Agreed, all 3 machines almost fall into completely separate categories, but yet, all 3 have "similar" work areas.

Will your taig do Horizontal milling? It does not appear so from their web site.

yes, the smithy's seem elusive, very little in terms of reviews. But with a smaller travel and NO Horizontal, it is not really on my short list. The X3 is a built up machine, but it has the advantage of being heavier, stronger, more travel and horizontal milling. I would think the Taig CNC was also a manual mill and they also hung control motors on it....but with lots of units sold, they probably worked out lot of bugs.

Agreed the Taig size is not bad, but the lack of horizontal milling is strike against it, for me. I need to confirm with Syil the capabilities of the mill in horizontal mode.

Mach seems to get raging endorsements, a great sign. After reading further on this forum, BobCam has its fair share of detractors.... From what I can tell, Google Sketchup will produce 3d models, export in .dxf and MeshCAM can crunch the dxf file, if so, I like Sketchups intuitiveness.

Tormach a bit more machine than I can handle..... 1300 lbs with the stand... but very impressive machine...most importanly, from the pix, it appears it can't go horizontal.

IH is also a VERY impressive machine.....I would probably opt for this mill, 950 lbs without the stand is quite the beast. I like how they show what appears to be a Sherline mini mill on the table of their mill, and under the quill! The price is $9k + accessories, although it does come with pc and software. A bit out of my budget as I need lots of accessories. Their manual mill is very impressive machine at only $2k base cost....sheeeesh...

Seems Syil hit on a sweet spot in the market, size, weight, price, peformance (based on user reviews, not a lot of complaints). I am willing to bet other makers will soon be playing in the X3 arena.

[rc-monster mike]

I don't own an x3, but I have owned an extended x1 and I currently own a Taig (and a Minitech). The taig IS horizontal milling capable(quite easy to do), and you can also put a taig lathe chuck on the spindle in horizontal mode and you have yourself a cnc chucking lathe as well. The Taig is superior in quality to the x1 Seig I owned hands down. I have read that the x3 is a far superior machine as well, but I would bet the Taig would have better overall quality, though it is MUCH less machine. Also, if you are planning parts within the "work cube" of the Taig and milling with small bits, the Taig has the huge advantage of much higher rpms. No doubt the x3 can remove material at a much faster rate, but if the parts are small and require small bits, the Taig's spindle(with 1/4HP motor) can spin over 3 times faster, making it far more ideal. The taig has very limited z clearance, which is a detriment when trying to drill a part while in a vise for instance, but otherwise is a nice and versatile machine - and quite accurate when adjusted properly.

[in2steam]

horz. on the x3 would considerably limited from what I have seen, it was the only thing I really wanted to get the Sx3 besides the 1 HP. The taig is very able to horz, I don't own a mill, I own the lathe. I own a x3 in a crate at the moment, the little I have looked at it quality wise the x3 is a step or 2 above the x1 and x2. Its still not the taig either though, my taig lath can hold on the cross slide .0005 very easily. If you know any thing about myford lathes, they are just like them save smaller. Philbur has a tormach he has been happy with it and I am sure he would chime in and say something if asked. I would have liked to get one but the funds were not there.

chris

[msc]

Monster, thanks for the input.... I plan to speak to Taig today regarding the horiz. capability. Great analysis of the Taig, benefits of higher spindle speed noted, and lower z cube, which sometimes will frustrate me for drilling operations of slightly bigger parts.

In2steam:

> horz. on the x3 would considerably limited from what I have seen

Response from Syil regarding this question. "In horizontal mode you would still have the same travel, 9.1"."

I am very curious of your opinion of the horizontal ability of the x3.... is there something you had in mind when you suggested its limitation? Often, the devil is in the details :-). Does anyone else use X3 horizontaly? TYIA

[in2steam]

The Sx3 is only capable of horz. not the regular x3, I would argue about the ablity to use that head in horz. you loose alot of working area. Yes the table travel is the same, of course it is, the ablity to mount something to the table is reduced alot I would say at least half, take a look at the manual for the Sx3 on grizzlys web site they show it set for horz milling (figure 21). Its often said that if you need to do that kind of milling just mount the part that way, I am inclinded to agree, for the most part nothing done on that machine is so big it cannot be turned, or mounted in angle vise, or 4th axis. I did not order the Sx3 as it was Backordered.

chris

[msc]

Chris..good point. I should have mentioned, I was planning on mounting the part in horizontal direction for these cuts. The properl mounting (to accomodate the Y travel "zone") is mandatory. Hence Syils America response is probably accurate.

I assume what you are referring to is...when you tilt the head horiz., the thickness of the head eats up a lot of space between the spindle and the table, right? If so, then I understand why you suggest loosing about half the Y travel. The solution would be to mount the part higher on the table, assuming your goal is to use nearly all of the 9" of Y axis travel. Are we on the same page here? Simple if we had a machine in front of us, huh :-)

BTW, the SX3 is still backordered... Syil mentioned they are expecting 30 more soon. People must be happy with em...

What mill (s) do you have?